One of my problems with the Trayvon case.

[vaberella]

How did Trayvon end up lying face down with his toes pointing to the side walk? Seriously. Zimmerman says he was in a struggle with Trayvon with Trayvon on top of him in various forms. Either with knees on his shoulders or with knees holding down his arm as he smashes Zimmerman's head on the cement part.

Now how in the hell did he get shot with his body facing down. It didn't seem as though Trayvon could move after being shot...since a close range shot to the chest would have him bleeding out profusely. So how in the hell did he end up facing down and with his toes pointing to the sidewalk.

He gets shot in the chest while on top of Zimmerman he faces up, toes up. He gets shot in the chest standing up...then maybe he might fall forward on to his knees then down---or straight down...but that would mean both he and Zimmerman were on the grass and Zimmerman had his back to the backdoor of the neighbor's house.

However, the other possibility in that second scenario is that with the amount of pressure from the bullet entering the body he (Trayvon) ends up backwards with his head towards the sidewalk.

Or...he was shot in the back. Or his body was moved...which is another problem. I just don't see someone who's on top of the guy...since Zimmerman was said to be on top at the end...would try to stave off the blood flow from the back, if the boy was shot in the chest.

Or am I wrong here? Do I have something off and/or is it actually possible Trayvon ended up with his head facing the neighbor's back door, toes pointed towards sidewalk, face down in the way Zimmerman described and most people have described as a shot in the chest.

I just saw the enhanced video and I am sorry I can't see those gashings happening. If they did...those were old, probably from a bad hair cut. Tell me your thoughts on this since I don't see many people discussing how the boy ended up facedown.

[Mariana]

1. The autospy report should go a long way

in explaining the relative positions of the two at the time of the shooting.

[vaberella]

8. This case needs to be brought to a judge by now. I'm fed up with these loose ended points. n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

12. Either Zimmerman has to be arrested or be indicted by a Grand Jury

Even then, not all of the data will come out until during trial

[Ecumenist]

2. Vaberella, I pointed this out last week in a couple of long threads last week. I believe is was

Thursday. There were a coupe of papers that reported that it was discovered that he indeed HAD been shot in the back. It was RIGHT before the shut down on more info being leaked. this was in one of the threads where people where talking about it. "Trayvon Martin was topped and then shot in the back by George Zimmerman, according to emails sent to the press. CNN spokeswoman told the press in three separate emails:"

I agree with you regarding zimmy the sociopath. I don't believe for one second that that it happened the way zimmy claims.

[vaberella]

7. Pass on the links.

I think you're right. And I have to see these papers. If that is true...then why the hell isn't the prosecutor moving on this and this guy is still allowed to stay home. I mean if he shot the kid on the back and they have that proof. Then Zimmerman should have been arrested a while ago. Since the autopsy is out there. I could imagine a freeze though because that sort of information out will lead to a witch hunt, some riots, and total violence in the US...not just Florida.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

11. Didn't the mortician who said there were no injuries to his hand

say there was a front chest wound?

Much of what the media has claimed has turned out to be questionable over time

[uppityperson]

22. The funeral director, mortician NOT coroner said he had wounds front and back of chest, could not

tell which was entry which was exit. The autopsy had already happened and the funeral director/mortician then got the remains.

He did say he saw no wounds on Trayvon's hands.

[Tunkamerica]

3. just from your description...

and i will admit I haven't studied the stroy very closely. But, if you shoot someone who's on top of you and then get out from underneath them... they may still be face down. Of course the police not blocking off the site and taking evidence has made much of this moot.

[vaberella]

5. That scenario does not work. I thought of it.

The problem with this is that if you shoot someone on top of you...there are two things that could happen. They fall backwards...which means they don't fall face down. And if someone falls on top of you...I would think instinctively that you would push them off of you and normally they shift onto their backs or sides not fall face down.

Additionally if the latter is what happened he would litterally be bathed in blood. Keep in mind it was already released the boy was bleeding out. In that close range he'd have blood on his face and blood on his neck and tons on the front of his clothes that would be picked up by the camera and probably not dry within 35 minutes in Florida weather.

[Ecumenist]

9. If that was the case, don't you think he's be covered in Trayvon's blood and gore?

There wasn't even a stain on him...PROBLEM.

[rbixby]

13. That's the thing I was wondering too

I'm pretty sure a gunshot wound to the chest would bleed profusely, and that there would be blood spatter all over zimmerman if martin was on top of him. The only way this wouldn't have happened is if Zimmerman was on top or if he was standing.

[Aerows]

15. The lack of blood on Zimmerman

Is my main problem with that scenario.

[alcibiades_mystery]

4. Accoording to Zimmerman's dad, he said "You got me!"

So he probably did one of those cartoony things where the shot person clutches his or her chest, spins around a bit, starts to fall down, gets back up, falls down, lifts his legs, brings them down, spins again, relaxes the head, lifts it up, spins again, and finally does a 5-4-3-2-1 countdown with the fingers on one of his hands before dropping his arm again down again for good, facedown, feet facing sidewalk.

I mean, since Zimmerman's entire account - from the shitty dialogue to the behavior of the actors - is silly cartoonish melodrama, why not have a wacky, Yosemite Sam-esque death scene to cap it off?

[vaberella]

6. Alright...then that explains it all.

However, normally in those cartoons they end up face up with a flower in their palm.

[alcibiades_mystery]

10. Bugs Bunny playing taps on a cavalry bugle...wasn't that in Smith's police report

Watta maroon! What an ultramaroon!

[X_Digger]

14. Unlike on TV and in the movies..

People shot at close range, even shot in the heart- often don't fall down immediately dead.

Nor do shots lift you off your feet and throw you backwards. Mr. Newton would like to have a word with some script writers.

[vaberella]

18. Please answer the questions in post 17 please. n/t

[kctim]

16. Forget the movies

A shot at point blank range doesn't hit the body, it goes through the body.
It is easier to slide out from under dead weight than it is to lift it up.
Gunshot wounds usually result in blood seeping out, not spurting out.

[vaberella]

17. Fine. Then please explain the problems that arise below.

But still wouldn't some of the blood seeping out of Trayvon actually end up on Zimmerman? I saw no evidence of blood. And if that's the case then that would mean that Zimmerman was on the grass with Zimmerman's back facing the house behind-- he would never ever be in the concrete side like he said since Trayvon's feet are pointing towards said side walk.

[X_Digger]

20. Sometimes gunshots bleed a lot, sometimes not much at all.

If they were chest to chest when the gun went off, I'd imagine there'd be *some* blood on Zimmerman.

If there were a couple inches between them, and/or the angle of the shot wasn't straight on? It's a crap shoot.

Dexter, CSI:Somewhere, etc are about as real when it comes to gunshots as Perry Mason was to trials (ie, they usually get the large details close to right, but sensationalize the small ones for effect.)

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Locally the instructions at court go

Forget all you gphave seen on law and order and CSI.

[kctim]

24. I wasn't there, so I do not know

I wasn't trying to explain away problems or justify actions. I was only stating from experience that it is not usually as dramatic or bloody as portrayed on screen.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Autopsy report

That said, unlike the movies, a 9mm does not have enough force to do that.

At that close range it most likely went through though. These rounds are infamous fr doing that.

I think he was shot while trying to get away. Entry, exit, path of bullet. No exit, it was at range.

[salin]

23. Based on time-stamped events there is only a minute from the time

Trayvon is on the phone with his girlfriend and starts the verbal exchange with Zimmerman (according the the gf "why are you following me" - but that is hearsay - though the timing of the phone call is timestamped and not in question.) One minute later the police arrive and Zimmerman isn't on the ground. Even if the clocks are slightly off this is somewhere between 60 seconds and maybe 100 seconds.

Hard to imagine how in this very short time frame it goes from no contact to beginning contact. To Trayvon on top beating up a guy much larger (height and weight), to being shot out of self defense, from someone underneath him. With Zimmerman then getting out from underneath Trayvon (rolling out from underneath the dead or dying boy - or pushing off the body of the dead or dying Martin) without the body being turned over or sideways. With Zimmerman standing when the cops come around 60 seconds (or so) later.