Why calling a gay man by a female name, like GiGi, is homophobic

[quinnox]

From reading the other thread, it appears some still don't get it. Now, even a lunkhead like me can understand why calling a gay man by a female name is offensive and homophobic. But for me, its more of a gut feeling regarding this, and I would not claim to be the person best able to explain it, so if any of those who are better able to explain this and have more understanding, please do so for the benefit of others. Thanks.

[JaneyVee]

1. I've never seen anyone call him GiGi, only GG.

GG are his initials. People call Obama PBO. But I agree, calling him GiGi is dumb, I've just never seen it.

[Mojorabbit]

130. A simple search will show multitudes of incidences

as well as people unhappy with the practice going back many many months

[Egnever]

196. Just did it, couldnt find one example related to greenwald.

Maybe you can link a few. Since there are "multitudes" should be easy.

[Mojorabbit]

198. obviously you did not try terribly hard

gigi greenwald site:democraticunderground.com
If that does not work type in gigi greenwald and that only scratches the surface. I have read the conversations myself as they have taken place so did not have to look them up.

[Wolf Frankula]

2. What if he Calls HIMSELF

by that name?

Wolf

[Fearless]

57. Follow the "n" word rule.

[arely staircase]

87. Glenn Greenwald is the new Black

And 'GG' = the N word

[Fearless]

97. Homophobia certainly is the civil rights issue

Of millenials just as racism is of the boomer generation. Not to say that either has been irradicated.

[RKP5637]

104. It definitely is IMO. And, 50 years from now there will still be some bigots and homophobes just

like we still have bigots and racists today. Some, apparently, just love and live to hate, persecute and bully others. And, if they didn't have the current targets they would find something else. Some are just born haters IMO.

[DonViejo]

8. Ooops. My mistake...

Sincere apologies, I'll delete my comment.

[Puglover]

10. Allow me.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3126706

I find it very amusing that some of our members that now proudly have Rainbow Flags as avatars never took issue with this.

[DonViejo]

15. Like I said, I never ever saw anyone refer to GG as Gigi/GiGi...

At least not until you linked to that nearly year old post. BTW, did you call BluCaliDem on his reference to Greenwald as GiGi?

[Puglover]

16. OIC

Because it's "nearly" a year old it doesn't count. Gotcha.

And yes I did. You want to see the discussion. Look it up.

[DonViejo]

19. If I meant it didn't count I would have written so but, as you can clearly see, I didn't.

I did look to see if you called him/her on it, didn't find it and so asked if you had....incorrectly thinking you would point it out to me but, damn! wrong again; you decided "I'll be a defensive smarty pants." Thank you though for calling BlueCaliDem on her/his "GiGi" comment though, much appreciated!

[Hassin Bin Sober]

67. I didn't call him on it.

He also called Greenwald a "bugger" in the same thread.

Bugger:
1.
penetrate the anus of (someone) during sexual intercourse; sodomize.


No. No homophobia there. Nuh huh.

Edit to add: this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023128604

[indivisibleman]

71. Bugger can also mean mischievious kid or just a kid.

Here in the midwest we have always referred to kids as little buggers, like in kids that are just being kids or running and horsing around.

We have a pastor friend who once went to give a sermon in a church in Canada and he used the phrase "little buggers" to refer to his kids. There were gasps of horror among the attendants and later he was informed by one lady that she thinks it is horrible that a man of the cloth would refer to his kids that way!

[Hassin Bin Sober]

73. Oh for fucks sake. Save it.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

106. I'm wondering why Mac56 deleted his comment defending the use of bugger?

Mac56?

[treestar]

148. I've heard that too, from the older generation

It has a meaning that has nothing to do with homosexuality.

[Hekate]

190. In Hawai'i it was pronounced "buggah." Same common inoffensive usage. Dropped it with my pidgin...

...when I left, though.

[Bluenorthwest]

85. That poster is opposed to marriage equality and says so with religious conviction....

BlueCaliDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 03:14 PM
"Gay marriage is for me unthinkable, but Civil Unions have my 100% vote. I believe that marriage is something done in churches, and the Bible does speak negatively about homosexuality.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1352110


So calling gay men by women's names is just one expression of that person's bigotry and desire to discriminate.

[randys1]

178. Had to read the thread to find out who GG is so i havent seen that reference...

How awesome would it be if we didnt point out if the person in question was Gay or not white...

How about "Dick Wadnington, who happens to be a white, Protestant heterosexual, said blah blah"

[sabrina 1]

62. Not the first or the last evidence of homophobia re Glenn Greenwald on DU either.

Funny how people get so caught up in their hatred for someone they tend to forget themselves AND in the process, reveal themselves.

Not a bad thing actually, I prefer to know where people stand. Eg, in another sad display of homophobia regarding Greenwald, not even subtle, it was interesting to see who rec'd that particular OP. Some, airc, removed their recs after the eventual banning of the poster, others however, left them.

I too have called people on their use of Greenwald's initials, but to no avail.

When one is blinded by hatred they seem to forget what they purport to be as opposed to what they are revealing themselves to be. So we shouldn't surprised.

[Puglover]

80. There is out and out gay baiting downthread.

Same poster who told us, "You have plenty of rights."

This site is crawling with bigots. POC and gay folks put up with this shit constantly. Sad on a supposedly Democratic site.

[sabrina 1]

84. I haven't read that far yet, but when a known bigot, self confessed, was

embraced here by some people, it was clear to me that there are indeed bigots here who had zero problem with some of the most disgusting revelations I've ever seen here. Since then nothing surprises me anymore.

[Scootaloo]

170. Should have seen some of them talking about Chelsea Manning

Their avatars are just covers.

[QC]

176. And Dan Choi, when he ventured a criticism of You Know Who.

He went from hero to poopiehead in three seconds flat.

[pnwmom]

4. No one here is calling him Gigi or even GiGi.

People are using his initials, like they do for lots of people. I call Hillary Clinton HRC frequently. I've never seen Greenwald use a middle initial, have you?

[quinnox]

7. Would you agree that calling a gay man by a female name is homophobic?

That is mainly what this thread is about, thanks.

[pnwmom]

12. Yes. But "Gigi" is not equivalent to "GG"

anymore than flea is to flee.

[Aerows]

48. Yes it is

What you are doing when you do that (or call a woman by a man's name) it's a slur against that person's sexuality. You might as well be saying the f.. word or the d... word.

[AnalystInParadise]

107. I don't know.....

Is the gay man's name Karen, Jan, or Sal? All gay men I know with names often identified with women. I will continue to use GG if I choose to use initials. Normally I call him Greenwald and I am a supporter of his, but if i want to use GG, I will and it will be an exercise in my rights at free speech which thankfully begin where your's end. and not anything homophobic or hostile to GG's sexual orientation,

[dawg]

177. In their defense, some of them might not be doing it to be homophobic.

For some, it could just be good old-fashioned misogyny - where you insult any man (gay or straight) by calling him something "girly".

[corkhead]

9. here's one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3128709

[pnwmom]

14. Ok, that one is wrong. But the poster has argued that using his initials

is the same thing, and it's not.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

70. That poster also referred to him as a "bugger"

Look it up.

[Hissyspit]

115. Except when it is.

Like when posters who originally called him Gigi switched to GG in the middle of a conversation.

This was around the time of the Snowden revelations last summer.

[Dragonfli]

18. .

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/10024933719#post9

I have seen it a half dozen times just this month.
Do a search if you wish to know the truth

[Iggo]

45. Yeah, they are. They're just not spelling it that way.

'Cause they're oh so clever, see?

[Hissyspit]

112. Yes, people have.

Then switched to GG when called out on it.

I am sure some have used GG without no malice intended, but plenty do.

It's a neat little game.

[corkhead]

6. It's all about context. It is being used like an negative epithet

thus making it one

[G_j]

43. agreed

There are specific people who use it, and it's not a mystery to me what they are doing.

[Aerows]

52. I don't think it is a mystery to anyone

including them. It would behoove them to realize it is essentially a slur on his sexuality.

[bobduca]

54. ...

it's a mystery to nobody but the internet tough guys and gals who defend Obama against poopieheads!111

[Leme]

11. i didn't see GG as GiGi (in print..if they are calling him GG in video or audio,that's different...)

I never hear him called GG in an audio setting.
-
but, lucky his name wasn't ......

[treestar]

21. If anything, it means his name is being said often enough

for people to want to abbreviate, like BHO or LBJ. He would like that.

[bvar22]

27. So you DO agree that posts using "Gigi" are homophobic?

Thanks!
That was the whole point of the OP,
and it happens at DU more often than some are willing to admit.

Thanks for your support!

[treestar]

35. You should delete this post

It is patently unfair and untrue. You are arguing in bad faith. My issue was he would be glad to be so often posted about that people want to use his initials.

I hope his middle name doesn't start with A, or we'll be in real trouble.

[bvar22]

142. Not deleting my post,

....and permalinking to your posts to use the next time someone uses homophobic slurs in an adolescent attempt to discredit Glenn Greenwald for his Pulitzer Prize Winning expose' on government Over Reach.

That is the thing about homophobes and other bigots.
They never believe they are, and will use absurd rationalizations in attempts to make it seem OK for themselves.

[giftedgirl77]

13. I agree 100% with the GiGi being homophobic &

unacceptable. However, using someone's initials is not.

[NuclearDem]

17. OFFS.

[seabeyond]

30. ha ha. see how much i have not been following shit on du. lol. of course...

head smack. i am clueless what quinnex is talking about but i am leaving my post below that it is sexist to. and....

i am off du to enjoy my day

wavin' at you...

in my clueless.

[treestar]

20. It is his initials

so he's out of luck.

Being gay has nothing to do with why people are opposing him, where they are. Not those who oppose him from the left.

Who is to determine the maleness or femaleness of a name? Some women are actually named Michael. Some names migrate, like Marion did.

[quinnox]

22. Calling a gay man by a female name is homophobic

those posts should be alerted on.

[treestar]

23. What is a female name?

What if there is some man out there named Gigi? Laughing at that would be what? What if there is a man with the initials GG?

What would you have said is Glenn's parents named him "Lara?" I have heard of a man with that name. Would it be more homophobic to call him Lara or LG?

[quinnox]

28. Do you think calling Greenwald as "GiGi" is homophobic?

because it sounds like you are making some lame excuses for it.

[treestar]

31. No, it sounds like you are dodging my questions

Would it be homophobic to call him "attention seeker?" See I can play this game too.

[quinnox]

37. Talk about dodging questions

Calling a gay man by a female name is homophobic, and posts that do so should be alerted on. End of story.

[treestar]

42. Why is that?

Why is calling a gay man a female name homophobic? Are female names inferior? What is a female name and what is not?

Why do you dodge that it is his initials that sound like that? YOU are the one hearing it as the female name.

Why, if his initials happen to be GG, are we forbidden form using his initials? We could use them if his initials were MM? TT? CC? LBJ? JFK? - but can't when they happen to be a homonym for a female name? One that you heard right off the bat when you saw the initial written?

Is it racist to use BO for the President? That is used to mean "body odor."

You've actually raised an interesting question here.

Why does making him the victim of this alleged homophobia make his arguments about the NSA stronger?

[quinnox]

46. I think there is a major difference between using "GG" and "GiGi"

As pointed out, "GiGi" was used by right wingers to make fun of Greenwald. I don't think they were being complimentary. Right-wingers also tend to be highly bigoted against gay people, as a rule.


As to why "GiGi" is homophobic, all I can say is have some gay duers explain it to you. They could do a better job than I could.

[treestar]

49. You're going to back out like that?

You can't explain why it's homophobic? Then how can you take that position? Why are you asserting it so strongly when you can't explain it? If someone has to be gay to understand it, how is it going to be stopped?

How can anyone get around the initials? They aren't as bad as BO when it comes to that, because they are just a name, not body odor. And you are verging on sexism at the same time, insisting it's insulting for a man to be called by his initials if his initials happen to sound like a female name. So what? Female names are as good as male names and one of them are insulting in themselves.

[quinnox]

51. As I said in the OP, its more of a gut feeling to me, as to why its offensive

The best way I can explain it, is how in the same way its offensive to call a guy who isn't macho a "pussy". Jurors, please excuse my language, as I'm trying to explain this the best way I could. That clearly is offensive, and in the same way, its offensive to call a gay guy by a female name. That is how I see it.

[Ms. Toad]

120. It is because homophobia is, at its core, misogynistic

Treating a gay man as a woman (using a woman's name, poking fun at feminine characteristics, etc.) is an insult because it uses being female as a step down from being male.

It is not that female names are objectively inferior, it is that women are still treated as inferior (and viewed as inferior by may) - so calling a male by a female name is turning him into something less than male; less than a "real" man.

You don't seriously think that the people who are using those names are not intending to insult him - and by choosing that insult they are both engaging in homophobia and misogyny. Because the insult is only insulting if being female is viewed as a bad thing - something that would offend a "real" man.

[treestar]

139. I honestly think most of them are using his initials

There may be a few who mean it to be insulting, but for it to work as an insult, you have to be a sexist. That's going to come from the right wing, maybe. Here I see it is used to smear people with homophobia. People who don't deserve that and are having it used as a cudgel for daring to question Mr. Greenwald's motives and actions.

[Ms. Toad]

152. There are plenty of people here

who don't see how suggesting anyone is gay as an insult is homophobic, or that referring to Ann Coulter as a man is transphobic. Unfortunately, you don't have to be right wing to fling bigoted crap. It happens here all the time by people who insist they are not bigoted. You are correct about the dynamic - you have to be sexist (or at least the act of using that particular name is sexist), just wrong that it is limited to the right wing.

Using GG is an insult in the same way the right wing uses the initials BHO to refer to Obama - they are implying he is Muslim because of his middle name. Individuals using GG are using it as an insult. If that were not the case, the people doing it would not be digging their heels in to explain why it isn't homophobic - they would just change. People who insist on referring to Greenwald by the initials GG or the name GiGi, after it is pointed out that it is homophobic, are the same as right wing talk show hosts who continue to call Obama BHO. They are doing it deliberately, as an insult, and should bear whatever consequences (including being labeled homophobic) which comes as a result of that deliberate choice.

[BainsBane]

160. We could just dispense with shortcuts

and call him Jesus Christ.

I should say I am very concerned about NSA surveillance and willingness of the executive branch to completely ignore the 4th Amendment. What I do not give even the slightest shit about is Glen Greenwald. He isn't the issue and shouldn't be made into the story.

[BainsBane]

159. Excellent point

I wish more people would think about that connection between misogyny and homophobia.

[yardwork]

182. Exactly. Thank you.

[Eleanors38]

33. My name is Stephen. Don't call me Stephanie.

[treestar]

44. I'm a man and my name is Marion.

Are my parents wrong? It it wrong for people to use my name?

When are any male names ever based on a female name? I'm sure it's been done, but not often. Whereas many male names have a made-up female sounding name for girls. Presumably originally, to name them after their fathers yet again.

[Bjorn Against]

58. If Glenn Greenwald's name actually were GiGi then it would be fine to call him GiGi

Because his name is not GiGi however it is clear to me that everyone who does call him GiGi is a homophobic bigot. It is fine to call a gay man by his actual name, it is not fine to make up a female name and refer to him by that name against his will.

[Bjorn Against]

105. Previously you told us you were a woman

Here is what you said in the past when you were dismissing gay marriage...

457. There is nothing bigoted about the fact

There there is only one right you do not have. And people who give no credit to Obama for what he did already while making as if it is the only issue that matters are just wrong. There's always going to be some new demand. I am a woman and we don't have all our rights all the time, or some are threatened, but this is the US where we can talk about it, protest and I don't go around saying I have no rights. Not when looking at women in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia for instance.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2952192claim

So in the past you told us you were a woman, now you are telling us that you are a man named Marion? Something tells me you are not being honest with us.

[Ms. Toad]

129. Nice catch.

It seemed a bit too convenient for this conversation.

[LeftyMom]

135. Did you read that whole subthread?

Somebody should have been banned for that. OMG.

[Bjorn Against]

136. I did, and it was disgusting

[treestar]

140. Are you kidding?

Sometimes we use the English language that way.

You are taking it that literally. I am a woman. But I used the sentence "I am a man named Marion" as an example. I have such a hard time with people being that literal! I really can't believe you are claiming that I actually meant that literally.

I am the President, and I propose a bill for single payer. That is a literary device. I'm not claiming to be the President. I'm just making the situation, laying the groundwork.

[Bjorn Against]

143. Well I will remember in the future that you told me not to take you at your word

[treestar]

158. SMH

Good grief.

[Whisp]

180. unbelievable!

The arguing with you about your gender - and not believing you. Setting up investigations of past posts -- I knew what you meant by your 'Marion' line.

The wheels must be coming off the GG train because if they got nothing but 'accusing' you of lying about your gender - you know they got nothing else.

wtf. craziness.

[Le Taz Hot]

167. Backpeddle backpeddle backpeddle.

And to use a familiar emoticon:



You are SO busted!

[treestar]

172. No

It is that poster not being sophisticated enough to get a literary device. SMH. I'd hate to be that literal.

[Bjorn Against]

179. So because you made a false statement and I pointed it out I am not sophisticated?

Sorry but when people tell me their name and gender I feel that I should usually be able to take that literally unless they are clearly being sarcastic. You said something that was blatantly false and I pointed it out, now you are trying to say I am not sophisticated because I pointed out your false statement.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

175. Is there a way we can tell which of your posts should be taken at face value?

Which of your posts are hypotheticals that should not be taken as factual statements? This begins to explain a lot.

[Zorra]

181. ...

[Ms. Toad]

125. Your parents did not name you Marion as an insult

And - it is your name. (Not to mention that Marion is a traditionally a name which can be used for either gender).

GiGi is not Greenwald's name, and is being used by people who are at a minimum not his friends, and in most instances, clearly trying to insult him.

[treestar]

173. Well then say it was a male name

that his initials happened to sound like. It's be OK then? Or if the journalist involved was a girl.

[Eleanors38]

155. Yes, yes, and there is Leslie, Carol, and Dana...

But Gigi is a woman's name (see: Gigi, 1958, starring Leslie Caron). I don't think you are going to convince many otherwise.

[treestar]

174. Actually there is a man using that name

There's an OP about it.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

187. Because... his cousin couldn't pronounce "Luigi."

"Delmaestro--he was called Gigi because a cousin couldn't pronounce his real name, Luigi..."

http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jul/18/local/me-delmaestro18

You left that little tidbit out.

[Union Scribe]

24. His initials are not GiGi.

But it was worth reading your defense of the practice for this line: "Not those who oppose him from the left."

[treestar]

34. I have no real interest in calling him GiGi

and never have. I am more interested in why using a female name on a man is "homophobic." What is a female name? Why is Gigi necessarily only for females? Is that decreed somewhere? Isn't it misogynistic to claim calling any man a female name somehow demeans him, gay or not?

OMG, we can't criticize him from the left? How hypocritical! He's a Libertarian! If Obama, Reid and Pelosi can be criticized from the left, why can't Glenn be?

[Bluenorthwest]

86. Here is the thread people need to read to see where you are coming from, the gays have plenty of

rights thread. You frequently saw very bigoted things and always pretend you have no idea how vile your verbiage is. The worst part is you you do this to support Obama, who would never be such a craven bullshit artist.
An excerpt from the thread, a window to your soul...Treestar sez:
"There there is only one right you do not have. And people who give no credit to Obama for what he did already while making as if it is the only issue that matters are just wrong. There's always going to be some new demand. I am a woman and we don't have all our rights all the time, or some are threatened, but this is the US where we can talk about it, protest and I don't go around saying I have no rights. Not when looking at women in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia for instance.

If I am a bigot for caring about other issues, then fine. I don't think gay marriage is the only civil rights issue there is. Or the only issue that matters. And there is free speech. And the rest of the bill of rights. You should be ashamed for not caring about anyone or anything else
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2952192claim

[Ms. Toad]

131. It is misogynistic to use a female name to insult a man

by calling him by a name that is not his own - specifically one which is female, because it implies he is "less than" a "real" man. As I am sure you know, a large part of the bigotry directed at gay men is, at its core, misogynistic.

[arely staircase]

25. the more threads on greenwald's initials the better nt

[JoePhilly]

75. I don't trust people who don't have a middle initial.

And from what I can tell Glenn "NoMiddleName" Greenwald is one of them.

[seabeyond]

26. we might also want to acknowledge that it is sexist, too. i am sure that blows your mind more,

but just look at the fact you ... who so often refuse to acknowledge sexism, felt the need to start an OP supporting gay men, to not have a female name given to them. the horrORS. ya. it is homophobic. and equally or even more so, sexist, seeing how we are the truly offensive, women. ya know.

[seaglass]

32. sea, it is because the poster supports Glenn (as do I), don't get too optimistic that there

has been a sudden burst of empathy or understanding of anyone else's interests.

[treestar]

38. Why does supporting his writing

have to mean making him out to be a victim? If what he does is so important, why are we worried about somebody calling him by his initials, and trying to interpret that as insulting him because his initial are a homonym for a female name? It's making it about him and forgetting all about the NSA.

[seaglass]

50. IMO there is a difference between referring to him as GG vs GiGi. His initials are GG his name is

not GiGi, that is being used to feminize him as a put down - both homophobic and sexist. He is a victim of people doing this to him, there are links in this thread to DUers using it. How much it bothers him, I have no idea.

If you can't see it or don't care because you disagree with him or his actions, that's on you. There are many, many DUers who object to homophobia, sexism and racism on this site towards anyone - not necessarily just those who are on "our side."

[VanillaRhapsody]

55. even those who think being called a feminine name is the worst thing EVAH!!!

[seabeyond]

56. by the way. an example? i am not a supporter, nor like or respect the man. meh... nt

[seaglass]

76. Puglover linked to one above. n/t

[Puglover]

83. Here is a more recent post.

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/10024933719#post9

[treestar]

119. I really don't deserve that

It seems mere questioning of whether something is homophobic makes one a homophobe. In that case, everything is homophobic. Glenn is gay and therefore cannot be questioned.

I could do the same thing with Obama and say it's racist to question him. Yet we would get called out on that.

[seaglass]

127. treestar, I didn't call you a homophobe if that's what you're saying. n/t

[Ms. Toad]

134. Questioning Greenwald is fine - he certainly can be questioned

Using a female name he has not chosen to use is is insulting him in both a homophobic and misogynistic way. It attributes female traits to a man, and in order to work as an insult - there has to be a stereotypical perception that gay men are effeminate - and that that is something negative.

[seabeyond]

40. ha ha. and ya. there you go. i just read where abbott made posters, wendy's head on a barbie, as

"abortion barbie"

and i was gonna ask du if we recognize the blatant, in the face, misogyny. and if we recognize, do we acknowledge we are allowed our misogyny toward the republican woman. cause of agenda.

like that?

[Number23]

171. Thank you. And that also goes for the folks egging this on.

Although I do agree that "Gigi" makes no sense and is unnecessary, I'll just stop there before I really say something.

[Aerows]

53. It is also just as bad

as when people do the same thing to women and masculinize their name to make implications about their sexuality.

[dickthegrouch]

29. This is something I've struggled with for many years

When I first came out (in the UK in the mid 70's), there was a whole subculture of gay men who referred to each other using female pronouns (even in person). I hated it when anyone used them to refer to me, and I can see my reaction was somewhat misogynist. But on the other hand, I am male and wanted no part of the cross-dressing overly feminine men that were the principal protagonists in this behaviour.

I still don't understand why cross dressing is viewed as part of the gay scene, except that at some stage we tried to be inclusive of all sexual minorities. It is bizarre to me that there are so many cross-dressers on Gay Pride parades.

My own bf dressed regularly for years and I support him to the hilt, but initially I was outraged because I didn't want anyone to think I'd gone straight. It was confusing to me to go out with someone who often passed as a girl.

I'm still struggling.

[Ms. Toad]

147. It still exists -

And when done voluntarily, within the community, it can be a celebration of one's feminine aspects.

That is very different from using a female name in the context of attacking someone - as part of an insult.

Good to recognize your reaction, though for what it is. You can't control your gut reaction - but you can control how you act on it. I've had similar struggles with different aspects of our community. I recognized them for what they were - tried not to let them impact others. Mostly I've done a decent job - because I've also had conversations with some of those I had a negative gut reaction to and they were unaware of my reaction. And, my internal reactions have changed over time as I have become closer friends with people I initially had negative reactions to.

Thanks for sharing. I think it is helpful to acknowledge that those of us in the community don't always "get it" about every aspect of every one who falls under the rainbow flag.

[dickthegrouch]

185. Re: those of us in the community don't always "get it"

This is a crucial aspect to what's happening even in this thread.
I know it's a pain to educate every newbie that comes along, but we have to.
We cannot keep flying off the handle in rage at everyone who hasn't had the chance to think it through. or we end up with reactions like reply #36.

Even I, who has access to significant parts of the gay community, haven't always had the courage to let myself be yelled at for 'obvious' errors in my Political Correctness. It is hard to reveal vulnerabilities. This whole thread is about educating each other

AND GIVING EACH OTHER SPACE TO LEARN IN.

[Ms. Toad]

195. Mostly I agree.

If you search, you'll find I do quite a bit of educating. You'll even find it elsewhere in this thread.

At some point, though, in what is supposed to be a space which is safe from bigotry, I'm not willing to put up with it. I don't fly off the handle in rage about it - but if I have spent enough already invested time educating a particular member - or have seen others trying to educate the member - I do alert and vote to hide. Particularly when (as is the case with at least one poster in this thread) there is either faux innocence or deliberately provocative outrage.

[kickysnana]

36. Damn I am just going to stop speaking to people completely, the rules are too much.

[JohnnyRingo]

39. I've never seen anyone at DU refer to Greenwald as "Gigi", have you?

I've noticed that some who even shorthand the phrase "are you" abbreviate his name to "GG", but that's not the same as casting an effete aspersion upon him. Perhaps you can question someone who orally uses that internet shortcut of making a snide comment, but as a typed abbreviation it's more laziness that a personal attack.

Unless you can effectively read people's minds, you don't know that "GG" is a derogatory term, and I know you can't. Too much complaining about nothing. Do I have to find out what hair band Poison's guitaist CC Deville's real name is so I don't insult people? hahaha

[quinnox]

41. Yea, I have. Check out posts 9 and 18 for examples

[JohnnyRingo]

157. Well, I stand corrected.

I hadn't seen such reference until you pointed it out. Thanx for that.

While I maintain that "GG" is just another lazy internet shortcut, "Gigi" is certainly a more obvious slur unless Greenwald uses the nickname himself. For all I know, he may have GG embroidered on his towels.

[tkmorris]

47. There are 2 links in this thread to people using "Gigi" to refer to him

Long time DUers too.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

61. It's the same homophobes who crawl out of the woodwork and play dumb every time.

And when Palin gives a speech talking about Barack HUSSEIN Obama she is just using his proper name.

Or when rethugs call it "The Democrat" party they are just referencing a party full of Democrats.

The main gum flapper in this thread is a homophobe. She can't resist threads like this and feels compelled to crawl out of the woodwork and play"what do you mean, who me?"

They can't resist.

[tkmorris]

88. It's the playing dumb part that gets me

As if we are all stupid or something.

[Hissyspit]

110. Yes, then they went to GG when they were called on it.

There IS a history here. As I wrote in another thread:

"While some have assuredly referred to him by his initials without malice, plenty of posters ahavenot.

Some people write JA for Assange, but funny how it is not nearly as common as GG for Greenwald.

It's a cute game some are playing and plenty of people aren't falling for it."

[Fearless]

59. Intent is the important part

If someone is calling a gay man a woman it is very likely that they are trying to disparage them. There are very few exceptions to this and they can only be made on a case by case basis.

I have no idea where this OP is coming from, as I didn't see what it's responding to, but I will only say that suggesting that gay men are women is homophobic.

It takes a man to have sex with a gay man. Literally.

Edit to add: Going back and reading the posts, it is possible that GG is just initials. It would be the intent, as I've said, that matters in this case. I would lean towards the term being used for convenience sake and that the original user had no intent on it being a feminization of the person.

[Hissyspit]

116. There is a history from last summer.

Quite a number were using GiGi deliberately disparagingly, then switched to GG when called out on that garbage.

Yes, sometimes it is hard to gauge intent. And sometimes it's not.

[Fearless]

169. Perhaps

I tend to avoid silly argumentative threads if I can.

[OKNancy]

60. Just don't alert on my name or anything

[rrneck]

63. Gut feelings define colloquialisms.

If a word is generally understood to mean something, that's what it means. Definitions cannot be determined by fiat.

[Throd]

64. My initials are "MR". Would that be a slur against the mentally retarded?

Not everything is an outrage.

I've seen 1,000 posts referring to Greenwald as "GG" and just assumed it was shorthand that is so commonly uses in this era of texting. In none of those posts did I detect any homophobia.

[quinnox]

65. Let's just say there are often things going on underneath the surface

Read the responses of several gay duers in this thread. I can't argue with them.

Does that mean everyone who uses "GG" is being homophobic? Of course not. Does it mean that some are maybe using it in that way? I think so.

Do those who use "GiGi" as a nickname, are they being homophobes? Definitely.

I will call it out every time I see that particular one, as its intent is very clear, and those who use it should be banned, IMHO.

[BlueCaliDem]

114. And you know that's just supposition, personal opinion,

and outright bullshit, right quinnox?

As a poster below has posted, addressing a man, gay or not, with "GiGi" - just because you believe it's supposed to be a female name - does NOT make anyone homophobic no matter how much you wish to believe otherwise. The homophobe accusation is just one of many against other posters, made only in order to shut down any criticism of the Almighty Libertarian Greenwald in a Democratic Party supporting community.

For the record, since I'm mentioned in multiple posts on this thread, I got "GiGi" from a Liberal Democrat, pro-Democratic Party, ex-Deaniac openly gay man who founded another blog I'm a paying member of. If I'm a homophobe for using "GiGi" then so is that openly gay man, right? And that's just crazy.

So your premise, that "Do those who use "GiGi", are they being homophobes? Definitely." is proven to be definitely dead wrong. And I hope, sincerely hope, that you'll review and revise your opinion that those who do use "GiGi" should be banned, now that you're better informed.

[Hissyspit]

126. Oh, please.

Yes, an openly gay man can use GiGi as a slur.

[Bjorn Against]

68. Greenwald's initials are not GiGi

The OP never mentioned Greenwald's initials at all, Greenwald's initials are not GiGi and anyone who calls him that name is a homophobic bigot.

[AverageJoe90]

66. Well, more than anything, I think it may depend on the person's preferences.

I'm not gay myself, but I'd like to venture that there probably *are* gay guys out there who don't mind having a feminine nickname, or even prefer such.

[Bjorn Against]

69. If they want a female nickname they will tell you so

There is nothing wrong with calling a person by a name they ask you to call them, but assigning a female name to a gay person without their approval is homophobic. Glenn Greenwald never asked people to call him GiGi.

[AverageJoe90]

99. Well, you'll get no argument from me on this end, re: approval.

If a gay man is called a female name, or nickname, without their prior approval, then yes, that certainly is wrong.

[zappaman]

72. I knew a man named Gigi

He was the maitre d' at a restaurant I love.
He was beloved by many and not only is there a delicious salad named after him, there also is an annual charity golf tournament in his name.
Great guy. Always remembered everyone's name and just a joy to be around.

So you premise is wrong.
Maybe you should let the Palm know you are offended.

http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jul/18/local/me-delmaestro18

He was the quintessential Hollywood maitre d', doling out tables and booths to a celebrity clientele ranging from Madonna, Sylvester Stallone and Adam Sandler to Jeffrey Katzenberg, Michael Ovitz and the Reiners, Carl and Rob.

But the Palm Restaurant in West Hollywood is not just a place for stars, talent agents, studio executives and other entertainment industry power eaters, Louis "Gigi" Delmaestro always insisted.

Delmaestro, the Palm's gregarious Italian-born general manager-maitre d', who was a fixture at the restaurant since it opened in 1975, died Saturday of cancer at the home of his daughter Madeline Tugentman, in Maplewood, N.J. He was 66.

At the Palm, where the menu includes the Gigi salad, the mustachioed Delmaestro was as much a part of the dining experience as the celebrity caricatures on the wall and the restaurant's famous steaks and lobster.

[Bjorn Against]

74. That man you knew was not Glenn Greenwald

And knowing of one man that was named GiGi does not change the fact that GiGi is generally thought of as a feminine name. Assinging a feminine name to a gay man without his consent is homophobic. Period.

[zappaman]

77. It's not a female name.

And abbreviating Glenn Greenwald to GG does not make a person homophobic.

[Leme]

81. His parents assigned him the initials GG

I doubt if his parents would be offended if, in print , he was referred to as GG, when abbreviations of everyone's name is done there in the same fashion.

[Bjorn Against]

93. Can you please point me to where his initials were mentioned in the OP?

We are not talking about his initials, the OP did not say GG it said GiGi and his initials are not GiGi.

[treestar]

146. That was their mistake

I guess they did not realize it was homophobic at the time.

They probably just liked the name "Glenn."

[OregonBlue]

79. That's silly. Why should we spell out his name. What's different about GG than POTUS or GWB.

I assume you are opposed to negative comments about GG, not that people use his initials. In a post about Glen Greenwald, I find it hard to believe that you think it should be a rule that we have to type out his full name?

[Bjorn Against]

95. The OP says nothing about his initials, his initials are not GiGi

[IronLionZion]

89. Does this apply to Lindsey Graham, Stacey Campfield, Lynn Swann

and other Republican men with female names?

[MNBrewer]

92. I was unaware the Glenn's actual name was GiGi.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[IronLionZion]

108. Tell me what is his real initials?

[MNBrewer]

138. Why are you changing the subject to LG, SS and LS?

[IronLionZion]

164. Glenn Greenwald's initials must be something other than GG?

[arely staircase]

90. I knew a gay man named Chocolate Thunder Pussy

Well that wasn't his real name, that was his drag stage name. He has since passed away. RIP Chocolate Thunder Pussy.

True story.

Anyone from the Denver scene in the 90s may remember CTP.

[Behind the Aegis]

94. I didn't know he had passed away. :(

I saw him a few times in Atlanta at Backstreet's (which I think has closed).

[libodem]

91. What's you trying to say, Nancy?

It's ignorant, repulsive, and reprehensible? You are right.

[msanthrope]

96. And yet....callin a dog "GiGi" in honor of Greenwald was not homophobic????

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1857190


I will use GG when I feel like it, thank you very much.

[arely staircase]

109. thst never seems to get addressed, does it? nt

[msanthrope]

111. No...it does not. Wonder why??? nt

[Hissyspit]

123. Why should it?

You can't see the difference?

Really?

[Hissyspit]

122. Wow, you really can't see the difference?

[msanthrope]

128. If "GiGi" is homophobic, then it's homophobic. If I call my dog "Redskin" in honor of my

favorite NFL team....it's still a use of a racist term.

[Hissyspit]

133. No.

There is a tradition of using feminized versions of masculine names - and vice versa -as an honor. Not the same thing at all. The dog is female. It is being given a feminine name that relates to Glenn Greenwald's masculine name in his honor. NOT the same thing as calling Greenwald by a feminine name at all.

[treestar]

144. Then shouldn't the dog have been named "Glenda?"

The initials are still homophobic, aren't they?

The point is that it is your opinion of Glenn that controls here. You can call him by his initials if you support him, but not if you don't support his actions.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

98. Homophobia on this board is alive and well.

Sad that a certain few people will sink to homophobic and transphobic insults, it's always the more conservative members too..... Not a coincidence.


This board should be a safe space, but it's not. All bets are off if you speak out against certain things.

[Behind the Aegis]

100. It is indeed homophobic.

Using feminine names (Gigli) or feminizing his initials (GiGi) is used as a way to "humiliate" him, imply he isn't a "real man." This is a common form of homophobia. That said, using his initials, GG, to refer to him is not generally homophobic. Are there those who use his initials as a shorthand form of homophobia? Sure. By in far, most, however, are doing no such thing and to imply it is to mock homophobia and obscure it in such a way as to make it easier for homophobes to get away with their bigotry. There are those who don't give a shit about homophobia and will claim even the first examples I gave aren't homophobic, or are even another form of bigotry over homophobia. Those people are only interested in their narrow points of view and homophobia is nothing more than a weapon in their arsenal.

[Blanks]

101. I once voted to hide a post making fun of Ann Coulter...

As much as I hate her - the alerter pointed out quite eloquently that making fun of her demonstrates a lack of sensitivity toward LGBT folk.

My point is that it's one thing for people to say something offensive to a particular demographic unknowingly - it's quite another to do it intentionally. I have not seen Greenwald referred to as Gigi, and it's reasonable to use GG as so many others have pointed out in the interest of time saving typing.

I don't think the ones accusing the Greenwald haters are making a very good case, but I don't like Greenwald because I heard he's a libertarian. Which doesn't mean I think it's ok to antagonize our LGBT friends, I just think that in this instance they're not choosing their battle wisely.

[RandySF]

102. Wow! You've never been to SF, then.

And you've never met Anna Conda.

[uppityperson]

103. I would not call a gay man "Gigi" but if his initials are GG might refer to him by those, same as

someone whose initials were "AF".

[Rafale]

113. About being called a name

Being called a name becomes irrelevant once we become proud of who and what we are. It's time for all of us to evolve. Demanding political correctness from others points to our own weaknesses. Be strong. Evolve.

[G_j]

117. there are people here who absolutely HATE Greenwald

when you see those people calling him GG, it's as plain as day where it's coming from. The really sickening part is when they claim they are just using "initials". How freaking dishonest!

[seaglass]

132. I've been reading Glenn since he started writing his Unclaimed Territory blog, have been a

supporter since then and I'm pretty sure I've referred to him as GG - but NEVER GiGi. I had no idea that it was a rw meme and won't do it again as I don't want to be confused with those who hate him. But I hope you will consider that some may have used GG in the same way I did.

[seaglass]

145. Ah, ok. Yeah I mostly stopped engaging with them after this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=97376

Too much rinse and repeat.

[Whisp]

149. It's obvious I don't like GG, but you are way out of line

'as to why'. You are calling me a homophobe and that is pathetic. Low down lazy and pathetic to do that when there is no evidence of that whatsoever in any of my posts - your fertile GG defensive mind is making shit up.

bullshit, leaking dripping bullshit. The man deals in stolen goods for personal benefits of $$$ and ego stroking. and is about as obnoxious and dishonest as they come.

Eventually we will find out more of the GG Reveal and when that day comes it will be evident he gives not a ratfuckers ass about privacy and wiretapping, but cares a lot about the baubles his 'fame' has brought to him.

[G_j]

153. I don't remember addressing you at all

do you call Greenwald GiGi?

[Whisp]

154. Yes you did. I do call him GG for brevity sake

This is what you said in your post:

If they are using GG, it's pretty obvious as to why, as some used to us GiGi, but got called on it.

so bullshit deux, you said that because I call him GG it's code for really wanting to call him GiGi but would get called out on it. bullshit poop dripping down pants.

And I have'nt seen Greenwald be addressed as GiGi here for ages, as it was pointed out it was not appropriate.

lordy! I know people who support him slavishly are getting nervous about some of the bad news and smell around him lately, but resorting to such lame and lazy insults as this? Lordy!

[G_j]

156. nice try, but this is what I said,

"it's just specific posters
who are always ready to express their hatred for him at any chance. If they are using GG, it's pretty obvious as to why, as some used to use GiGi, but got called on it. "




if the cap fits, you can wear it.

[Whisp]

165. And I could say it's just specific posters who have expressed hatred

for the President express love and admiration for Scammer GG.

[treestar]

141. The Hater thing is complained of when it's the POTUS

So why is it OK in reverse? We can oppose Glenn or think little of him or his work without hating him, just like you can criticize President Obama without hating him.

[G_j]

151. no, we are talking about making a specific homophobic slur

I suppose you could ask them if they actually "hate" Greenwald. Certain comments are pretty obvious.

It's like if I see somebody jump at any mention of Ralph Nader and scream "FUCK NADER!", I figure they probably hate him.
And most certainly one can criticize without hating.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

118. Please link to the post where he is being referred to here on DU as "GiGi". Thank you. nt

[Hissyspit]

124. I don't know what started these response threads today.

I haven't seen anyone say "GiGi" recently, but plenty were doing it last summer:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3126706

[bvar22]

150. Ask...and you shall receive.

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/10024933719#post9

This is a recent one, but using homophobic slurs in an adolescent attempt to
to discredit Glenn Greenwald's Pulitzer Prize Winning expose' of government Over Reach happens all too often at DU.

You could do your own research, but this one should get you started.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

162. So, it's limited to at least on recent comment two weeks ago and some last summer?

Does that warrant a flamefest OP on a nearly non-existent issue?

I do think those that do that are doing it out of bigotry. And that is wrong. I just hadn't see any justification that would explain why this is being made a huge issue today.



Oh, well. I'm off to drink a lot of alcohol for fun tonight.

[bvar22]

168. Who said it was limited to that particular example.

THAT is YOUR Strawman hastily constructed to hide the fact that you are NOW moving the GOal Posts.
You asked for an example I provided it.
It took all of 3 seconds on Google.

You DO know how to use Google to answer your own questions?
I suggest you do that instead of weaseling out by trying to move the Goal Posts.
Do your OWN work.
There are more.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

194. Well, here's a couple, with a "GeeGee" thrown in for good measure.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3128219

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3139009

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3112461

The first is a repeat offender. Use the Advanced search feature.

And let's not forget The People's Spew blog trotted out here at DU and cheered by many BOGers:

"Glenn Greenwald's straight crush Ron Paul"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3505867

It's a blatant attempt to feminize Greenwald. Just like one of the assholes on Discussionist who considers Obama to have a "dainty" frame.

[Ms. Toad]

121. Here you go.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4994376

[TampaAnimusVortex]

161. What's it called when a heterosexual man or woman calls another a bitch?

Let's ask Jesse what he has to say about it...

[GoCubsGo]

166. I think it's more misogynistic than homophobic.

Using a woman's name to slur a man, whether he's straight or gay, insinuates that he's less a man, because he's like a woman. That's misogyny in my book. I'm not a fan of Greenwald's but calling him "GiGi" here should not be tolerated. And, yes, I have seen him called that.

[Agschmid]

184. Yes "a gay" should be called by their proper name... What?

Welcome to DU but can you be a bit more clear?

[MohRokTah]

186. Where has anybody called him GiGi??????

I've not seen it a single time.

GG is NOT GiGi. Using initials ion the internet is accepted form.

So anybody who claims calling GG GG is homophobic is looking for a solution when there isn't a problem.

[Hekate]

189. It's now become a meme at D.U. to hammer those of us who disagree with or dislike G. G.

Possibly we should investigate the correctness of writing Democratic Underground.com in full at all times because, you know, DU is short for DUH, and also refers to Depleted Uranium, which is toxic and kills soldiers, civilians, and the unborn in war zones.

So calling this site DU is, ipso facto, a reference to war zone toxicity and not to be tolerated.

PS: The "GG" fracas isn't a problem in search of a solution -- it's a mechanism to shut people up.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

191. Links are posted in this thread. Why don't you look?

[MohRokTah]

192. I saw those links after my response to the OP

Apparently, a couple of people are idiots.

Won't stop me from referring to GG as GG.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

193. We'll go on with you bad self!

[loyalsister]

188. It's also misogynistic

The fact that it is an expression of homophobia is itself misogynistic. When perceived feminine traits or names with gay men is used as an insult it suggests a belief that femininity is negative.

[Skittles]

197. oh, the little assholes GET IT

they have to tear down SOMEONE in a misguided effort to prop up their IDOL