If a man is good looking enough, is it okay if he sleeps with a minor?

[Snake Alchemist]

I am asking because according to the thread below when a woman of a certain level of attractiveness sleeps with a minor then it is time for high fives.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101486029

A Cincinnati Ben-Gals cheerleader is facing criminal charges for allegedly having sex with a minor.

A Kenton County grand jury indicted Sarah Jones Thursday of first degree sexual abuse and unlawful use of electronic means to induce a minor to engage in sexual or other prohibited activities. The sexual abuse charge carries a punishment of up to five years in prison.

Cheryl Jones, Sarah's mother, was indicted for tampering with evidence. Cheryl is the principal at Twenhofel Middle School in Independence.

Sara Farmer, a special prosecutor from Jefferson County was assigned to the case because of a conflict of interest. The conflict of interest was because Commonwealth Attorney Rob Sanders was sued multiple times by Eric Deters, the lawyer who previously represented Jones.

[TheWraith]

1. I think the real question should be how old the minor is.

A 17 year old getting some with a good looking member of the opposite sex might be lucky. A 13 year old is probably being taken advantage of.

[Ecumenist]

2. Hell no!! I don't care if his ass is plated in platinum, IT'S WRONG...PERIOD!

[peacebird]

3. Somrtimes I think DU ought to enforce a waiting period before allowing new members to start posts.

[jberryhill]

6. Unless they are under 18.

[Snake Alchemist]

15. Depending on their level of attractiveness. New DU jury function. nt

[cynatnite]

4. It's against the law for a reason...

It doesn't matter if it's man or woman.

[NoGOPZone]

5. I'm sure you're fairly attractive, but I wouldn't advise you

to break the law.

[Cleita]

7. No. It's not acceptable for a man nor a woman to do so.

It's especially bad when a minor is involved. Our favorite not politician, Newt Gingrich, evidently slept with and married one of his high school teachers. I wonder if Newt's personality was warped by this?

I'm in my early seventies. I keep myself together and in shape and I do get hit on by younger men. But sleeping with anyone under fifty-five, to me, would be ultra creepy and not acceptable. I know old men sleep with and even marry women young enough to be their daughters or even granddaughters, but I don't find it okay, even if society shrugs their shoulders about it.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

8. For a man, no, of course not.

This is a good post and a good discussion starter as long as we can approach it with good will.

I'm not so sure your question really states where you wish to go with this line of inquiry. You want to know if there is equality amongst the sexes. I will oblige and become your sacrificial lamb

If a 14-17 year-old male (I use 14 because it seems to be the age of advanced puberty, but I'm not stuck on this age) is invited to have sex with an older woman and agrees, then one could argue that there is nothing coercive. This position is blatantly sexist because it admits a biological/psychological difference between men and women. Men, not all!!!!!!!, are predatory and desire via libido to bed women. Women, not all!!!!!!!!, tend to seek relationships and tend to seek out the approval of men. So when a young man has sex with an older woman, he truly gets what he physically desires. It's like eating pizza for him. When a young woman sleeps with an older man (and then is ultimately rejected, which is often the case), she is seeking fulfillment beyond the physical and is therefore psychologically harmed.

So when we see a woman acting as a man, as in this case, we automatically desire to put the male in the position of the female, but this is most often not the case; i.e., we desire to see him as a victim (which may be the case, but most likely is not).

By the way, this is the argument put forward by NAMBLA and many gay advocates for erasing certain sex laws in this country. The argument is that men have different sexual urges than women (SHOCK!!!!!!!!) and so ought to reflected in the laws. Two men engaging in sex, no matter the age difference, ought to be treated differently than heterosexual relations.

O.K., I think I answered your implied questions rather directly. I'm now ready to be flayed.

[seabeyond]

21. that isnt true. it is what we continue to say, conditioning, even though it is not a reality

and anyone with sons knows this. i grew up with brothers. one, emotionally connected and became heart broken with every girl. i just got to experience my 16 yr old sons first GF heart break that was emotionally challenging for him for half the year.

and i watch the opposite with the girls

you may put not all!!!! but it is more than the not all. i am going to say that boys fall harder than most girls.

as far as this situation? don know. if the kid is 17, i would feel about the same as with a girl. huge difference in the ages of 13,14 and 17. as for the older person? they are a POS. but i dont see it at all dfferent for the genders

[Snake Alchemist]

25. Good, thoughtful comments. nt

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

45. Thanks for your response, seabeyond.

Let's grant that there will be anecdotal evidence negating all statements. That's how anecdotes work. So I grant you everything above. I have three daughters and a son, and none of them are alike.

Nevertheless, you and I will both agree that there are simply biological differences. Hormones create certain reactions. It's pretty basic biology. So this means that, in general, men and women have different biological dispositions to both the opposite and same sex. We both agree on this, I think. O.K., well, a certain disposition is simply going to be more prevalent among each sex. This is neither good nor mad, but it gives a normative (quantitatively speaking) baseline. So my only point, and forgive me for being crude, is that young men desire getting laid with no strings attached more so than young women do. Therefore, if some sort of sexual liaison happened between an older woman and a younger man, I don't think, in general, he'd be as harmed.

Nevertheless, if it happened to my son, I would ask about how he felt. If he felt violated, coerced, etc., you can be sure as hell I'd press charges. If it happened to one of my daughters, and she said she was fine with it (even if the guy wanted nothing to do with her) and that she enjoyed her time, well, then, that's that.

My thesis: men and women are biologically different; biology is a factor (not the only one) in our response to sexual relationships; our response to age-different relationships should be different according, in general, to sex. There are no doubt many cases in which the general, normative roles will be reversed.

[seabeyond]

47. see, i am just not buying it.

it is told to us repeatedly to become a truth. and i dont buy it. i really do not. decades of watching and experience, i dont buy it.

girls are conditioned from the beginning that sex means more to them. so when questioned they say it is an emotional connection. i have watched so many young men fall heads over heals. sheeeit, i watch many grown men crave to have that relationship. now that there is a sexual freedom for women i am watching them have one night stands (myself included back in the day) with no emotional connection or desire for one.

the more freedom women gain in their sexuality the more all this bullshit of sex having to be connected to emotion, falls along the wayside. the more women gain sexual freedom, the more they equal men in affairs.

sex is sex. for all of us. character and personality, who they are, is the factor of if they need/want a connection or put an emotional connection to sex. i dont see it as biology or a gender issue. i think it is something we are told repeatedly and it makes me want to

from the day boys are born they are encourage thru all of society that "getting it" is the goal in life. from the day a girl is born society places responsibility on her shoulder that she must be emotionally involved to even get turned on. it is crap

and, if kids were 17, either gender, i would address the same as you. (what? are we talking about the 20 yr old on this thread?) actually, i would hope i didnt even know.

if it was a 14 yrs old? either gender? whole other story

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

48. I'm not intentionally trying to make you bang your head :-) Thought experiment:

14 year-old female has sex with 20-year old male.

14 year-old male has sex with 20 year-old female.

No need to reply to this. Just think about your visceral reaction.

Thanks, seabeyond. It's nice to know someone can want to bang her head on a wall and still treat me with respect.

[seabeyond]

50. lol

YOU werent making me bang the head. the repeated societal conditioning's for male and females does it for me. actually i had vomit, lol, but that smilie didn't seem to work.

yes, i get about the same view being boy or girl with a 20 yr old. honest. and really the view isnt horrible, it is just the social maturity of a 14 yr old, either gender, that i have the huge issue with.

i have a son that will be 14 soon. so all i have to do is look at this kid and see him with a 20 yr old woman. doesnt work.

edit... and what is funny, i have a son that will be 17 in less than a month. seeing him with a 20 yr old is not such a big deal.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

52. O.K., so let's go the social conditioning route.

Isn't your aversion to age difference between sexual partners equally social conditioning? I mean we've seen different ages all throughout history until really very recently. Nature has different age partners all the time. So the same line of argument actually works against you. If gender differences aren't really biological, and our aversions are only socially conditioned, then age works the same way.

And, let's go meta here, isn't the argument for social conditioning really just socially conditioned? Isn't it just the residual of time? or is there something biologically in us that would make us desire to seek social conditioning? You can see how regressive your position is. I'm simply implying that maybe it stops somewhere. I'm think maybe, just maybe, male and female hormones and the effects those hormones have on our thinking may come into play. But maybe when my daughters all menstruate at the same time, and they're all a bit on edge (in different degrees), well, that's just our household conditioning.

No, I think I'm going to go stick with some biological differences. Is there social conditioning? Of course: that's why we have ages for marriage, statutory rape, etc. If a 35 year-old man tried to marry a 16 year-old girl today, well, there'd be howls. But that wasn't true even a 100 years ago. So, yeah, social conditioning is there. Maybe just not as strong as you think.

Or I may be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

Thanks, seabeyond. I'll let you have the last word. I promise.

[seabeyond]

53. firstly, we are talking about the mental maturity of a 14 yr old vs a 20 yr old adult.

having children, surely you can see that your 14 yr old still is not even kinda sorta an adult. it has nothing to do with the age difference that you have placed in social conditioning. it is all about a 14 yr old is STILL a child. so that really has nothing to do with conditioning, everything to do with parenting.

what amazes me with the argument is women are so repressed in sex until wow.... they arent anymore. they evolved from having to have only one man forever to love and needing nothing else in life, to one night stands in a mere couple decades. i have never seen evolution work so quickly. and even though women did this amazing evolutionary fastforward in a couple decades they are still given that they have to have an emotional connection to sex.

intellectually and common sense just does not make all that jive.

"I'll let you have the last word. I promise."

you pretty much set me up to having to have the last word. your first paragraph shouts for me to respond, because of your incorrect statement about the age difference being a social conditioning when in fact it is about maturity.

[treestar]

55. That is just not true

No matter how much men may want it to be, because of it appearing to give them an advantage.

A young boy is a victim in that situation. Men have feelings too. Trying to pretend they don't is old fashioned. Women like sex for itself sometimes too. Trying to pretend they don't is old fashioned.

And think of what you're telling women - that you really don't care about them, you just want to get them in bed and then leave it all alone and that you would offer nothing further if you could get away with it. You're telling them you are cold hearted.

[seabeyond]

57. the reality is, these men just getting laid, are getting laid with women who are just getting laid

but the amazing disconnect men are twisting all over themselves in this scenario is their just getting laid is without women equally doing the same.

what kind of sense does that make. none

these women are out having a one night stand. these women are wanting nothing from this stranger but sex.

and this man is saying it is a one way street.

i would be doing some reflection on why i would be insisting on something that is so blatantly opposite of reality.

[treestar]

63. True. I just really resent this idea that every teen male is ready for such things

And would be calculated and cold about it. It's just silly. Most boys in high school are not ready and if they are, it's their same age girlfriend. A boy would indeed be damaged by an older woman abusing him. Men do in fact have feelings and this kind of old fashioned claptrap would practically justify women in using them coldly too.

[E-Z-B]

9. If the age difference is under 3 years, then yes.

It's stupid to have someone who could be a productive member of society have their life ruined by the legal system because they slept with a 17 yo when they were 18.

[Volaris]

20. I agree...and don't a good number of State-level Age of Consent Laws reflect exactly this reality?

Its been a while since I checked (I'm 35 now so it doesn't much matter anymore, but once upon a time I was NOT 35, and did have a slightly older girlfriend, and then a slightly younger girlfriend, so I checked to see all would be ok), and if I remember correctly, where I live (in Missouri) age of consent is 17, as long as your partner is not OVER the age of 20 or 21s or something...a 17-year old High School Senior CANNOT legally consent to sex with a 45-year old man, and 25-year old part-time college student CANNOT consent legally to sex with her student teacher, even if that instructor is the same age. It has more to do with maturity, power relationships, and the ability to manipulate those possibly more naive than yourself, and the damage that kind of psychological and emotional abuse can leave behind, than it does with the actual physical sex. The laws for my state may have changed since the last time that law would have effected any relationship I was in.

[Bucky]

10. Regardless of looks, I think any man should be able to sleep with a miner

I mean, assuming the miner consents, of course.

"Buy me a drink first."

[PoliticAverse]

18. I guess that's what the _Underground_ part of DU is for. n/t

[guardian]

26. LOL!!!

Very funny.

[DefenseLawyer]

11. I don't think it's the same.

I'm not saying I condone it or that it shouldn't be illegal, but I just don't think it's the same thing for a boy that it is for a girl. At all.

[Snake Alchemist]

14. Isn't that the definition of a double standard? nt

[DefenseLawyer]

16. Yes.

But as long as there are two anatomies there are going to be two different things. I'm not making a policy argument, I just don't think the two events are remotely the same.

[Snake Alchemist]

24. At that point you are entertaining the possibility that teenage boys are psychologically stronger

than teenage girls or that adult men are more predatory than adult women. I am not willing to do either.

[Bucky]

46. You don't think that males have a more lackadaisical attitude toward sexual liaisons?

I really think there's more than just social engineering involved in the different standards toward sexual/emotional attachment that men, in aggregate, feel compared to what women, in aggregate, feel. Obviously feelings will change from person to person. But in my experience, men are much more physio-psychologically equipped to "hit and run." I'd wager that a women doing what this (categorically unethical) woman did would have selected her underaged paramour for being fling-friendly like that. She was obviously not looking to build a long term relationship. Young horny guys are good for that sort of thing.

[Nikia]

54. You don't think that sometimes an adult woman will choose a boy is more emotionaly dependent rather

less? Whether it is because she wants a "relationship" with him, likes being the more powerful one in the situation, or thinks that it will make him less likely to tell.
I had a female relative who was a teacher take advantage of a troubled 15 year old boy. With few positive adult interactions in her life, he became emotionally dependent on her. This was during the 80's. She was charged and found guilty, but only lost her teacher's license and had a strict probation for several years.
She wasn't "hot" and was probably older than the boy's mother, but I don't think that "hot" female teachers who have sex with their students are all that different.

[LanternWaste]

22. It then begs the question...

"I don't think it's the same..."

It then begs the question-- what is the precise and relevant ethical difference?

[DefenseLawyer]

27. I'm not talking about the ethics or the morality of it.

I simply think that the physical act of a teenage boy having sexual intercourse is a different thing than the physical act of a teenage girl having sexual intercourse. Frankly I don't think I am making some radical statement there. It just is. As I said, I'm not condoning it or saying anything about legality, morality or anything of the kind.

[LanternWaste]

31. What then is the precise and relevant difference between

"is a different thing..."

What then is the precise and relevant difference (ethical or not) between an age-inappropriate relationship between a younger male and and an older female versus that of a younger female versus an older male? On what objective measure is that standard derived from?

[DefenseLawyer]

32. Have you had sexual intercourse, or at least seen it done?

The parts. That's what's different.

[LanternWaste]

33. You can be more specific, yes?

You can be more specific, yes? As I am aware of the biological difference difference between males and females, I am yet unaware of the (relevant to this context) biological difference between a young lady/young man under the age of consent of seventeen, and, all things being equal, a young lady/young mane at the age of consent of eighteen.

[jberryhill]

44. I think people perceive a difference...

...due to the perception that young women are more susceptible to emotional manipulation.

This is a consequence of the many ways that our society undermines self confidence among young women, rendering many to be responsive to an adult who is providing approval and positive reinforcement, but for purposes that are ultimately cynical and selfish. And this dynamic itself is part of the entire cycle.

[lumberjack_jeff]

61. There are only two possible justifications for this view.

Boys become grownups sooner than girls, or
Women aren't really adults.

Statutory rape laws are predicated on the idea that kids don't have the wherewithal to consent to sex with adults. If that's only true when girls are having sex with grown men, then it follows that a 15 year old boy with a 30 or 40 year old woman is a peer relationship.

[DefenseLawyer]

62. You didn't read what I said

I never once said anything about statutory rape laws. Not a single thing. In fact I specifically said that my comments weren't to suggest that the actions shouldn't be illegal. But thanks for the CLE on the legislative history of statutory rape laws, I really had no idea.

[mindwalker_i]

12. You have to admit, having sex with a minor

is a little off-key.

[guitar man]

13. As a middle aged adult

As a middle aged adult male I'm of the opinion that what she did is dead wrong. As a former 16-17 year old boy....well, the line gets a little bit fuzzy.

Nope, I'm going to have to stand my ground with my first instinct, she's wrong. If these young, hot babes are so fired up to have sex with someone outside their age range, they should go find a middle aged guy to do it with

[jberryhill]

17. You just changed my mind!

That is the most compelling argument I have ever heard on the subject.

But instead of jail, I would suggest that these women receive appropriate behavioral therapy to properly adjust their target age range in the manner you have suggested.

[JI7]

19. they can wait until the guys turn 18

[jberryhill]

23. No... the risk is too great

There should be a mandatory "middle aged guy" diversion program for these poor unfortunate women.

[msanthrope]

42. You volunteering for the job???

Somebody's got to make the sacrifice....

[jberryhill]

43. If I have to, I will shoulder that burden

[Rex]

28. It is never right to have sex with a minor.

Looks have nothing to do with it. It is wrong and harms the child.

[Snake Alchemist]

29. Not according to some. nt

[Rex]

30. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

I would think it would be common sense. The only way I can see it being okay is if it is two minors having sex.

[hfojvt]

34. having been a 13 year old boy

I can tell you that I was hornier than a viagra addicted goat. I simply cannot ever see a young male who has sex with an attractive woman as a 'victim'.

Could he get his heart broken? Quite possibly, but so what? My heart has been broken so many times it looks like a 2,000 piece jigsaw puzzle. I imagine that heartache-with sex is better than heartache-without sex.

The kid's a victim? The woman's a criminal?

I am reminded of The Fiddler on the roof. The young man said that wealth is the world's "curse". And the old man said "May God smite me with it, and may I never recover."

I cannot speak for the girls, having never been a 13 year old girl.

[Snake Alchemist]

35. Having a libido and having the ability to process psychologically are two very different things. nt

[Ikonoklast]

36. What do you think?

I love question poseurs that like to ask, but never put forward their own feelings on the subject of inquiry.

[Snake Alchemist]

37. I'm fairly sure I answered several time in the thread. nt

[Ikonoklast]

39. I'm fairly certain you haven't, that's why I asked.

It's easy: Sex with minors is OK in your book, yes or no?

I vote NO, every time.

You?

[Snake Alchemist]

58. I thought my OP was dripping with enough sarcasm.

Especially the "high fives" part.

[Rex]

40. Looking over the thread, I don't see you siding one way or the other.

I can guess from the OP, that you are NOT in favor but that is only my guess.

[Snake Alchemist]

59. I thought my OP was dripping with enough sarcasm.

Especially the "high fives" part.

[morningfog]

49. Not really. You give one line with nt at the end.

[Snake Alchemist]

60. I thought my OP was dripping with enough sarcasm.

Especially the "high fives" part.

[ieoeja]

38. Yes. n/t

[JoePhilly]

41. Sadly, age is not always an indicator of maturity.

If an 18 year old girl has sex with her 17 year old boy friend (who will be 18 in 3 months) ... what do we do?

If a 30 year old teacher has sex with a 17 year old student who will be 18 in 3 months ... is that the same situation?

I'd say no.

The 30 year old teacher should be able to process the issues better than 2 teens. The teacher has power over the student, even if the student does not understand that ... even if the student "consents" to do it.

[morningfog]

51. It all depends on the age of consent in the state in question. It varies and is always arbitrary.

[Iggo]

56. Not this shit again.

[LadyHawkAZ]

64. Since when does it have anything to do with the appearance

of the adult?

Actual relevant questions would be:
What was the age of the minor? (not given in the story)
What was the age difference between them?
Did the minor consent?
If yes, was the adult in a position of authority over them, to where coercion would be a concern?