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mahina

(17,739 posts)
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 01:22 AM Apr 2014

This message was self-deleted by its author

This message was self-deleted by its author (mahina) on Mon Apr 28, 2014, 02:13 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

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This message was self-deleted by its author (Original Post) mahina Apr 2014 OP
after a few years arely staircase Apr 2014 #1
Exactly. mahina Apr 2014 #2
I can't find it, but there is a Spanish proverb about the war of the day and the night. freshwest Apr 2014 #11
That is one of the reasons the CBO estimate is showing a long-term lowering of medical costs. A lot okaawhatever Apr 2014 #6
that makes sense arely staircase Apr 2014 #9
In MA, health care bankruptcies are still 50% of the total eridani Apr 2014 #31
Cool, Now fire your insurance man instead. Nobel_Twaddle_III Apr 2014 #3
THIS^ OffWithTheirHeads Apr 2014 #10
You bet! ChairmanAgnostic Apr 2014 #30
Exactly what I was going to say! Initech Apr 2014 #49
There are only three age categories, so maybe that won't hit you as badly as you think -- pnwmom Apr 2014 #4
Honestly? mahina Apr 2014 #5
I just gave money to a man on the street the other day Egnever Apr 2014 #7
I find I'm experiencing coincidences like that all the time. mahina Apr 2014 #8
I hope you got a new agent? newthinking Apr 2014 #12
It's not the agent, it's the insurance company. Divernan Apr 2014 #42
Yes, but to even suggest firing somebody....? newthinking Apr 2014 #46
I just watched "Capitalism- A Love Story" by Micheal Moore" deathrind Apr 2014 #13
Mahalo, I'll put it in my queue. mahina Apr 2014 #14
Corporations are people, my friend! King_Klonopin Apr 2014 #15
But not this one. mahina Apr 2014 #16
I was referring to the Health Insurance Co. (I should have been more explicit) sorry. n/t King_Klonopin Apr 2014 #17
Not a worry for a second, I took your point exactly. mahina Apr 2014 #18
"I really can not think of a more devious/evil thing to do." Enthusiast Apr 2014 #23
I recall a case from the 1970's HeiressofBickworth Apr 2014 #19
similar happened to a friend just a few years ago catrose Apr 2014 #27
Please, please, tell me that employer was subsequently run-over by a truck nikto Apr 2014 #36
Me too. I'll settle for a Ric Shaw. RagAss Apr 2014 #40
Sorry to have to burst your bubble HeiressofBickworth Apr 2014 #47
Thanks for the truth... nikto Apr 2014 #48
Hugs to you, Mahina. This is a story that should go out as a LTTE, copied to... Hekate Apr 2014 #20
Aloha no Hekate! mahina Apr 2014 #21
Thank you for what you did oldandhappy Apr 2014 #22
I'm glad I wasn't there. DeSwiss Apr 2014 #24
Something like that. mahina Apr 2014 #25
Do you have what they suggested in writing? Exposethefrauds Apr 2014 #26
Was that HMSA, by any chance? KamaAina Apr 2014 #28
You are a wonderful human being ashling Apr 2014 #29
+1 Liberal_in_LA Apr 2014 #32
Thank You.. Stuart G Apr 2014 #33
Your insurance agent urged you to break the law? Not ACA, but the ADA. DRoseDARs Apr 2014 #34
Mahalo for that info. mahina Apr 2014 #38
The agent was relaying the fact of life that policy rates increase for higher risks. Divernan Apr 2014 #43
YOU defied a Death-Panel, dude! nikto Apr 2014 #35
This is what America needs to be. 99Forever Apr 2014 #37
Thanks for your kindness but I'm not bringing this up to say how good we are, mahina Apr 2014 #39
Understood. 99Forever Apr 2014 #41
k&r.... thank you for saving this employee spanone Apr 2014 #44
Mahina - just for the heck of it Iwillnevergiveup Apr 2014 #45

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
1. after a few years
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 01:27 AM
Apr 2014

when we have stats reflecting millions of americans who got treatmen they wouldn't have (at least not without financial ruin) this country is going to have a collective how the fuck did we allow that moment.

Actually that is when the repubs start claiming they were for the ACA all along.

mahina

(17,739 posts)
2. Exactly.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 01:38 AM
Apr 2014

I remember a prof in peace studies who spoke of institutional violence, and this was just exactly that.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
11. I can't find it, but there is a Spanish proverb about the war of the day and the night.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 01:59 AM
Apr 2014

The latter being bombs, guns, etc. The former being the war among humans done daily. That's institutional violence.

Thanks Obama, for the start of ending this. Many people never understood the long term implications of what has been done, imperfectly against deadly odds. It is already raising expectations of sane treatment of people, mainly the poor.



okaawhatever

(9,478 posts)
6. That is one of the reasons the CBO estimate is showing a long-term lowering of medical costs. A lot
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 01:49 AM
Apr 2014

of people have to get treatment they've been putting off, but after that our nationwide medical costs will go down because we'll catch diseases and cancers much more quickly, we won't have the medical bankruptcies (over 1 million per year), and we'll be less reliant on emergency medicine. There are a lot of benefits to the nation as a whole. If you watch Fox or buy into the Koch commercials you won't know about any of them, but like you said, in a few years they won't be able to deny the wisdom of the changes.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
9. that makes sense
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 01:53 AM
Apr 2014

Good point.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
31. In MA, health care bankruptcies are still 50% of the total
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 07:17 PM
Apr 2014

If you have a bronze or silver plan, you have a ticket to bankruptcy and homelessness should you ever become part of the 15% that accounts for 85% of all health care costs. So expect health care bankruptcies to go on as usual, with the healthy 85% not giving a shit about the actual sick people

Nobel_Twaddle_III

(323 posts)
3. Cool, Now fire your insurance man instead.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 01:43 AM
Apr 2014
 

OffWithTheirHeads

(10,337 posts)
10. THIS^
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 01:56 AM
Apr 2014

ChairmanAgnostic

(28,017 posts)
30. You bet!
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 06:53 PM
Apr 2014

Initech

(100,132 posts)
49. Exactly what I was going to say!
Tue Apr 22, 2014, 02:28 AM
Apr 2014

High five!

pnwmom

(109,023 posts)
4. There are only three age categories, so maybe that won't hit you as badly as you think --
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 01:44 AM
Apr 2014

especially because people in the highest age category are also most likely to have preexisting conditions, which formerly drove up premiums.

Good for you on how you treated your employee. I'm glad small businesses like yours will never be faced with terrible decisions like that again. And that potential employees won't be forced to chose large companies over small ones based on health insurance alone.

mahina

(17,739 posts)
5. Honestly?
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 01:49 AM
Apr 2014

If this wasn't such a tiny community, if I didn't know with certainty that I'd be judged for it, or I would bump into anyone connected to this person again, I can't be sure that I wouldn't do the wrong thing. Running a company that costs almost ever dime we bring in makes tough decisions tougher.

But it is a small community, and I did know I would be judged by my community.

This post wasn't meant to tell you we're so awesome, at all. I kept my mouth shut for a couple of years and just wanted you guys to know what was going on out there.

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
7. I just gave money to a man on the street the other day
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 01:50 AM
Apr 2014

He was holding a sign saying he had a stroke and was fired after 17 years.

Was very odd to see this post. Glad your company made a better decision than his.

mahina

(17,739 posts)
8. I find I'm experiencing coincidences like that all the time.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 01:52 AM
Apr 2014

We kind of had to, but thank you. I think our other employees, also of many years, would have walked out.

They're almost all still here, thank goodness.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
12. I hope you got a new agent?
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:00 AM
Apr 2014

Truly brutal system definitely. ACA helps but much more work yet to be done.

Divernan

(15,480 posts)
42. It's not the agent, it's the insurance company.
Sat Apr 19, 2014, 12:32 AM
Apr 2014

If you switch agents, but remain with the same insurer, said insurer has all the records and is not going to offer you lower rates. similarly, switching to a new insurance company does not guarantee any savings. The new company would ask to look at the claims record/history with the old insurer (not including identifying names, soc. numbers, etc., - protected by HIPPA). And FYI, if you withhold requested information, or lie about "material" matters on an insurance application, and then put in a claim relative to said information, your claim is not only denied, but the whole policy becomes void "ab initio", i.e, from the beginning.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
46. Yes, but to even suggest firing somebody....?
Sat Apr 19, 2014, 02:03 AM
Apr 2014

I would not be happy with my agent mentioned it, because you know that he/she is mentioning it to others as well. Certainly discuss how costs are impacted, but by discussing it the way they did and making it out to be simply a "business decision" creeps me out. I would want a more ethical representative.

Good for you and your company though, for hanging in when the insurance companies want to make it tough for you to keep your compassion.

deathrind

(1,786 posts)
13. I just watched "Capitalism- A Love Story" by Micheal Moore"
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:11 AM
Apr 2014

Could not believe the part where corporations where taking life insurance polices out on their own employees. I really can not think of a more devious/evil thing to do. I know corporations are not in business for their workers best interests but this is just beyond evil.

mahina

(17,739 posts)
14. Mahalo, I'll put it in my queue.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:29 AM
Apr 2014

King_Klonopin

(1,307 posts)
15. Corporations are people, my friend!
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:34 AM
Apr 2014

Sociopathic, antisocial, selfish, soulless people, my friend.

mahina

(17,739 posts)
16. But not this one.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:36 AM
Apr 2014

Not today.

King_Klonopin

(1,307 posts)
17. I was referring to the Health Insurance Co. (I should have been more explicit) sorry. n/t
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:38 AM
Apr 2014

mahina

(17,739 posts)
18. Not a worry for a second, I took your point exactly.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:39 AM
Apr 2014

Thank you!

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
23. "I really can not think of a more devious/evil thing to do."
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:42 AM
Apr 2014

I agree. That is why we must have regulations. If corporations will not behave responsibly then they must be forced to behave responsibly.

HeiressofBickworth

(2,682 posts)
19. I recall a case from the 1970's
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:44 AM
Apr 2014

A friend was diagnosed with cancer which required surgery. She went in, had the procedure done and while she was in the recovery room, her employer advised her that she was fired effective immediately. I was always shocked by the cold-heartedness of this and I truly believe that if they had thought of it sooner, they would have fired her just before surgery. Given that this was the 70's, she had no recourse whatsoever against her employer.

catrose

(5,078 posts)
27. similar happened to a friend just a few years ago
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:33 PM
Apr 2014

but the company waited until she got home. Then she couldn't get follow-up care and subsequent surgeries. She's always wondered why her boss changed his mind after she'd worked everything out with him before surgery (and how he could be so cruel). I'm guessing insurance agent now.

 

nikto

(3,284 posts)
36. Please, please, tell me that employer was subsequently run-over by a truck
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 09:45 PM
Apr 2014

I need a happy ending here.

RagAss

(13,832 posts)
40. Me too. I'll settle for a Ric Shaw.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 10:43 PM
Apr 2014

HeiressofBickworth

(2,682 posts)
47. Sorry to have to burst your bubble
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 07:07 PM
Apr 2014

but she was a paralegal with a local major law firm which suffered absolutely no repercussions from what they did. She had no legal recourse against them. She eventually found another job and then I lost track of her so I don't know how everything worked out for her. And yes, I think they fired her on advice from their insurance agent. It's all about the bottom line as they don't give a fig about the individual. It's folly to rely on the good intentions of an employer because they will turn on you when the dollar signs say to do so. Another reason for single-payer insurance -- not having to rely on an employer for insurance.

 

nikto

(3,284 posts)
48. Thanks for the truth...
Tue Apr 22, 2014, 02:24 AM
Apr 2014

But it hurt.

I'm with you 100% on Single-Payer.

Hekate

(91,003 posts)
20. Hugs to you, Mahina. This is a story that should go out as a LTTE, copied to...
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:46 AM
Apr 2014

... Governor Abercrombie, and all. I bet President Obama would appreciate hearing about it too it's so important.

Me ke aloha pumehana -- you did good.

mahina

(17,739 posts)
21. Aloha no Hekate!
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:20 AM
Apr 2014

Thanks sis, I kind of had to, or would have been shamed, but mahalo!

oldandhappy

(6,719 posts)
22. Thank you for what you did
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:37 AM
Apr 2014

You were humane and human and kind and real. You give the rest of us hope.

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
24. I'm glad I wasn't there.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:09 AM
Apr 2014
- I would have had to say to this person: ''What you suggest is inhuman.''

K&R

mahina

(17,739 posts)
25. Something like that.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:46 AM
Apr 2014

It was a very pointed convo, and he got the word. He also told us that our rates could go over 1k per person per month. Fortunately that didn't happen.

 

Exposethefrauds

(531 posts)
26. Do you have what they suggested in writing?
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:14 AM
Apr 2014

Crap like that needs to go viral.

My company for the last couple of years keeps bring up how we are spending more on claims then on premiums and the company is now encouraging people to not use their insurance when they go to the Dr now to save money on premiums.

Doubtful they will drop the insurance, if they did almost everyone would quit and the company would go out of business. The benefits have to be competitive else they would not be able to hire people to do the work because all the competitors have at least the same benefits.




 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
28. Was that HMSA, by any chance?
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:40 PM
Apr 2014

For those of you playing along on the mainland, one insurer, Hawaii Medical Service Association (HMSA), controls about 70% of the market -- and Kaiser has most of the rest. So you can well imagine how brutal they can be.

ashling

(25,771 posts)
29. You are a wonderful human being
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 06:50 PM
Apr 2014
 

Liberal_in_LA

(44,397 posts)
32. +1
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 08:00 PM
Apr 2014

Stuart G

(38,455 posts)
33. Thank You..
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 08:31 PM
Apr 2014
 

DRoseDARs

(6,810 posts)
34. Your insurance agent urged you to break the law? Not ACA, but the ADA.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 08:52 PM
Apr 2014

Pretty sure that would have destroyed your company in the resultant lawsuit.

mahina

(17,739 posts)
38. Mahalo for that info.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 10:38 PM
Apr 2014

Of course we're not lawyers, not ma'a with how to find laws and read them. I know how many inches we need to keep clear for accessibility but did not know this.

I'm glad to hear it and will look into this, and share this info. Mahalos.

Divernan

(15,480 posts)
43. The agent was relaying the fact of life that policy rates increase for higher risks.
Sat Apr 19, 2014, 12:52 AM
Apr 2014

The ADA prohibits businesses from discriminating in the work place, but I don't believe it applies to firing an employee who becomes too ill to work at all. That's why individuals and/or employers can purchase short-term and/or long-term disability insurance; and/or put in a claim for SSDI with the govt. And re that type of insurance, my daughter was on 18 month disability leave for a major case of Lyme's disease. Her short-term carrier paid up with no questions. But when she'd exhausted the time limits for short-term and made a claim to the different insurance carrier which handled long-term coverage, she was summarily turned down and we had to find an attorney who specializes in disability cases. Because the policy was provided by her employer as a work benefit, and not purchased by her individually, it comes under ERISA, and all cases must go to federal court for non-jury (bench) trials.

Turns out her carrier, Liberty Mutual, denies ALL long term disability claims, and forces insureds to sue them in federal court. And Liberty Mutual delay doing that as long as possible by filing documents at the last possible moment, getting months long extensions from the courts, "losing" records sent by the plaintiff's doctors, - every damn trick in the book to stall and delay.

The federal judges heartily dislike these cases because, without juries, the judges are the finders of fact and have to wade through volumes of medical reports, expert reports, etc. Consequently, at least in our federal district court in Pennsylvania, the judges put so much pressure on the parties to mediate/settle that no recent cases have gone to trial. I asked the attorney what kind of settlements were reached, and he said about 20 cents on the dollar. And it takes years to finally receive any payments. Every time I see one of those warm and fuzzy Liberty Mutual ads on tv, I want to hurl.

On edit: FYI, I'm a retired attorney who used to handle insurance cases for property damage/personal injury - but NOT disability claims - that's a specialty, which is why I found an atty. for my daughter to handle her case. So I understand general principles of insurance law, at least as it was up until the time I retired. However, the law is always changing, either by legislation of new/amended statutes or by appellate decisions. Your employee should have applied for social security disability.

 

nikto

(3,284 posts)
35. YOU defied a Death-Panel, dude!
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 09:43 PM
Apr 2014

Good on you.

Know you know what a REAL Death-Panel is (insurance company suits).

The word must be spread.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
37. This is what America needs to be.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 09:56 PM
Apr 2014

Thank you for doing what every employer should do, but most don't.

mahina

(17,739 posts)
39. Thanks for your kindness but I'm not bringing this up to say how good we are,
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 10:41 PM
Apr 2014

but to share what a lousy system we all had before.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
41. Understood.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 11:53 PM
Apr 2014

But you chose to be part of the solution, instead of part of the problem. That is something truly selfless. Your kindness is what deserves thanks.

spanone

(135,921 posts)
44. k&r.... thank you for saving this employee
Sat Apr 19, 2014, 12:59 AM
Apr 2014

Iwillnevergiveup

(9,298 posts)
45. Mahina - just for the heck of it
Sat Apr 19, 2014, 01:20 AM
Apr 2014

I wish you would send this story to Michael Moore. His movie "Sicko" is several years old now, but I still think he'd like to read about this. And please accept my thanks and admiration for what you did for your employee. He's undoubtedly also your friend.

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