How many minutes do you think it took to decide that 16 year old is an adult criminal?

[Gravitycollapse]

How many minutes do you suppose the prosecutor's office spent endeavoring into the actual issue of what does and does not constitute criminality and mental instability?

How can you press charges for a crime you barely understand? They haven't even finished the goddamn evidence gathering. They probably have zero understanding of the suspects mental state now or while he was committing the crime.

I swear, I see stuff like this and it makes me wonder what kind of "justice" system this country truly possesses. Press charges now, figure it out later.

[Orrex]

1. How long can they hold a juvenile without pressing charges?

And is it common to delay the pressing of charges when an assailant is apprehended in the process of committing the attack?


You seem to know a lot more about it than everyone else, so I'm very interested in your informed opinion on this.

[Gravitycollapse]

4. They could commit them on a court order. Which does not require pressing charges.

And all they would need is some sort of testimony demonstrating the potential danger of the individual. They would have to extend this custody multiple times and I would hope that they could do so by producing more evidence over time.

If they can't produce the kind of evidence for that, what makes them think they have enough evidence to press charges against a 16 year old as an adult?


As I've said, this is why our justice system is so fucked up. They press charges without thinking and hope they stick later. All that matters to the kind of assholes who populate prosecutors offices is charges, upgrading charges and convictions. Regardless of the evidence or lack thereof.

[Orrex]

10. Since he is alleged to have demonstrated that he is a danger to others

I'd say that it was sensible to hold him for that reason, with the "danger to himself" angle coming in a distant second.

I also suspect that a spree-type attack like this raises the stakes to the point that a driving-age juvenile would likely be charged as an adult in most cases. Maybe not 20 years ago, but today? Sure.

Also, the splattered blood of 22 victims probably provided enough evidence to decide what charges are in order.



I think I missed your thread calling for sympathy for the victims, by the way. Can you point me to it?

[Gravitycollapse]

20. I don't have to preface my post with what you think is the proper first statement, thanks.

You can be committed for being a danger to others just as you can be a danger to yourself. But doing so doesn't quite satisfy the sweet tooth of prosecutors and their ilk.

[Orrex]

23. You forgot to post the link to your expression of sympathy for the victims.

Next time a rapist is caught in the act, I presume you'll step forth to call for restraint in pressing charges.

[Gravitycollapse]

26. In opposition to what you've stupidly implied, I don't have to support idiocy in the face of loss.

[Orrex]

27. Support your idiocy however you like. That's up to you

I hadn't previously realized that you were such a passionate advocate for the rights of the accused, but I'll now to read your future postings through that lens.

You defended Woody Allen against the allegations of pedophilia, right? The evidence in that case was a lot weaker than in this one, after all.

[Gravitycollapse]

29. "You defended Woody Allen against the allegations of pedophilia, right?" - Yes, I did actually.

Which is documented on this board.

[Orrex]

31. Whoa--my bad. I apologize.

I didn't see that one coming. In that case, I'll exit this thread with a snark-free tip of the hat to you for consistency.

I don't agree with you on this, but I respect your honesty.

[Adam051188]

41. funny

i'm glad you can label your designated "accused defender" so as to not be confused by details of circumstance or situation. whatever helps you.

[dionysus]

2. oh FFS...

[Logical]

12. LOL, so you think a 16 is an adult? So should have rights of an 18 year old?

[dionysus]

19. adult enough to know going on a huge ass stabbing spree is wrong.

the courts will work out the charges.

[Logical]

32. If found not guilty still an adult? nt

[dionysus]

37. only way he's not found guilty is by reason of insanity, then he goes to a mental institution.

I'm not saying give him the electric chair.

[LittleBlue]

3. Are you serious?

The guy/kid/whatever stabbed 24 people.

Letting him out at 18? Fuck that, he should spend his life in prison.

[Gravitycollapse]

5. How do you know he was of sound mental state at the time of the attacks?

Well, the answer is you don't know and it's highly doubtful, unless they've managed to miraculously institute extensive mental health screenings in just a few hours, the state knows either.

[LittleBlue]

8. I'm not willing to gamble on a psychiatrist's assessment that he's fit to be released

If that person is wrong, next time it could be 24 people with bullet holes in them.

At some point, the good of society has to come before consideration for the perpetrator. I draw the line at attempted mass murder.

[Gravitycollapse]

14. How is it possible that the burden of evidence for committing someone is less...

than the burden of evidence to press murder charges against a 16 year old?

You seem to possess zero confidence in the ability of trained psychologists yet possess an almost religious like faith in the "justice" system.

[LittleBlue]

21. I lose faith in the justice system when it produces unjust verdicts

Imprisoning pondlife like this kid is very just and necessary.

There is nothing unjust about someone who tried to kill 24 people spending the rest of his life in prison.

[Gravitycollapse]

24. How long has it been since the crime was committed?

And look how easily you believe with, as a I said before, a religious like conviction exactly what the suspect did and what would constitute a proper sentence (assuming a conviction is even warranted).

As I've said, press charges now and figure the rest out later.

[LittleBlue]

30. Is there actual doubt that he is in fact the one who stabbed 24 people?

No? Then he must be separated from society for life, by whatever means. This crime is not a mystery, there is no possibility of wrongful conviction.

I'm not a death penalty advocate, so whether it's prison or rubber rooms, I don't care.

[Gravitycollapse]

35. There's probably zero or near zero doubt he was the one who stabbed the victims.

I have not previously nor will I now claim otherwise. The matter I bring up is an issue of the diminutive nature of the process required to be travelled through before you can charge someone with murder.

The crime scene is literally still be processed. I highly doubt they've had even one psychologist examine the suspect in such a short period of time. If there has been any sort of exam, it was undoubtedly brief (I have seen the kind of entry exams they go through when intaking patients).

That he is an immediate danger is obvious and that is grounds for remanding him in custody. But how in the world they could amass the kind of evidence to press such serious charges in just a matter of a few hours is beyond my understanding.

[LittleBlue]

39. The police and prosecutors are privy to information that we aren't

He may have already been examined psychologically at school or in custody, and there may be video or witness testimony to support the charges.

They can drop charges later if they find that there isn't evidence to support them. It's no big deal, really.

[Gravitycollapse]

42. It is a huge deal. It demonstrates that charges can be pressed with little or no calculation...

And with little or no understanding of the act and the potentially culpable.

Real psychological examinations to determine the mental state of a suspect can take days, weeks or even months.

We are how many hours into this situation? It's already turned into a show trial.

[LittleBlue]

44. Charges aren't always pressed with the idea that those charges will be final

Prosecutors press charges they expect to later be reduced in exchange for a guilty plea.

Before accusing the prosecutors of conducting a "show trial", you should at least hear the evidence first to know if there is any basis to that accusation. There is no injustice here. No verdict has been determined.

[Gravitycollapse]

45. Prosecutors are not supposed to press charges they know have no factual support.

Which isn't to say that they will never have factual support. They simply don't have it now.

If you're okay with pressing charges without evidence, you exist on a different plane of ethics than I.

[LittleBlue]

49. I'm fine with charging a guy who stabbed 24 people with att. murder

No doubt those charges are based on the testimony of the victims, dozens of other witnesses and possibly video from the school.

So yeah I'll be fine existing in the plane of rationality.

Keep the fight alive I'll come back and discuss it with you when he's sentenced for life and the charges (that you claim are unjustified) are conclusively justified.

[Adam051188]

53. a lot of people around the world would probably agree with you. "stabbed 24 people=attempted murder"

guy=kid
stabbed 24 people=no one died
plane of rationality=your opinion

this kid should have been in front of a doctor a long time ago. why wasn't he? that's the most important question.

but since you can see the future i guess your probably right about everything so i'll shut up.

[LittleBlue]

57. Kid = tried as adult

Stabbed 24 people = 24 counts of attempted murder (assuming the person on life support doesn't die, then it's premeditated murder)
Plane of rationality = The opposite of the plane of sympathy for the violent scum who tried to kill 24 people

but since you can see the future i guess your probably right about everything so i'll shut up.

The future means events that haven't happened yet, not the stabbing of 24 people today. Why would I need to see the future to know of charges that have already been filed?

[Adam051188]

58. hang on this is complicated

see....you said he would get life...and that hasn't been decided yet....so i said that you must be able to see the future.

no one is going to die because of this.

your plane of rationality=the desire to hurt someone who did something irrational for no personal gain with no way of escaping or hiding the fact that he did it. someone obviously deeply mentally disturbed. and a 16 year old

your plane of rationality is the desire to destroy the remainder of the life of a deeply mentally disturbed 16 year old who cut and stabbed 24 people. am i right?

[LittleBlue]

59. Life, as in

24 counts of att. murder * XX years a pop = several hundred years. And I'll use my crystal ball again and venture that he won't get parole.

the desire to hurt someone

Nope. My desire is to see him separated from society for life to protect us from him.

[msongs]

22. age 16 and sound mental state are not cause and effect or otherwise related nt

[avebury]

62. Even if he was not of sound mind at the time

he should receive psychiatric treatment first then he should serve an appropriate sentence in prison afterward. He did the crime, he should serve the time.

[CFLDem]

69. Does it matter?

All that matters is that the little monster is permanently separated from society, be it in jail or the psych ward.

Which is what a judge will decide at his trial.

[Logical]

15. Lol, how young then? 15, 14, 13? Can't wait for this! nt

[LittleBlue]

17. As someone else pointed out below, it's 15 regarding homicide

in Pennsylvania. Trying a 16-year-old who attempted a massacre as an adult is reasonable.

[Gravitycollapse]

7. Your response is the perfect example of how fucked we are as a society. Congratulations.

And in case you're wondering what kind of social forces exist to produce a 16 year old who is capable of stabbing 20 people, you need only look in the mirror.

[JJChambers]

11. Why?

I suggest it is your hug-a-thug, coddling kind who create monsters like this. Actions have consequences. This young man's actions have terrible consequences for his victims and his actions will, and should, have terrible consequences for himself.

[Gravitycollapse]

18. You haven't the faintest idea what I'm saying and instead are seeing red. Ironic really...

Given how you seem so concerned with the welfare of others. So much so in fact that you are arguing that we put down a 16 year old like a dog just a few hours after the crime was committed. Your posts make me sick.

[JJChambers]

25. There's nothing wrong with "seeing red"

Thet red is the blood spattered all over the walls of the school, on the lockers, on the floor. It is the blood of this criminal's victims. Their blood is on his hands and his punishment should fit the crime. Luckily, my position is mirrored but the majority of our society. This monster will not soon take a breath outside the walls of a jail or prison.

[Adam051188]

36. there's nothing wrong with seeing red?

when it comes to a justice system i disagree with you.

if you're there in person and can deal with a situation with your hands and tools in front of you seeing red might save someone's life. not in a nations justice system though.

[ballyhoo]

40. Let me ask you this. I more or less agree with you, but

suppose cases like this were sentenced to a mandatory 10-15 years incarceration in a mental hospital with guards and such? After the mandatory sentence parole hearings would be scheduled. Would this change your mind at all? Sixteen is the cut-off age for me too (juvenile/adult), but I am willing to cut a modicum of slack. Oh, on second offenses of the same nature, the sentence will be life in prison or whatever the court rules.

[billh58]

74. Spoken like a true believer

in right-wing philosophy. "Hug-a-thug?"

[sarisataka]

9. Um how about no...

That doesn't work for you? Maybe Fuck No...

[Logical]

16. Lol, you again! Pro DP, what a shock! nt

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

13. The suspect's mental state...

doesn't really have any bearing on whether he or she is tried as a adult. In nearly every state, there is a process called "judicial waiver" where upon a request from the prosecutor, the juvenile court judge will waive jurisdiction in favor of the adult criminal court. But in this case, the laws of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania actually lower the bar to fifteen years old in the case homicide. So it actually wasn't even a matter open to discussion.

Edit: The suspect's mental state will be an issue raised by his defense attorney, and that would be the case regardless of the court of jurisdiction.

[Adam051188]

33. learned something today.

i wasn't there, but what I've read screams "psychological breakdown" to me, not premeditated attempted murder. If that even matters to anyone on this board.....

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

48. I'm sure the defendant's mental state will be an issue in his trial

Unlike with a firearm, where you can shoot twenty people in the time it takes to breath, it takes a whole heap of rage to stab twenty people. I have zero doubt that there's some psychological issues here.

[Adam051188]

54. your empathy is overwhelming

i'm comforted knowing you don't think it takes a whole heap of rage to kill twenty people with a firearm.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

65. Ummm....I didn't say that

What the hell are you talking about?!

[Glassunion]

28. I'm still waiting for a conviction before I decide.

Due processes and all.

[Adam051188]

34. +1

[WinkyDink]

64. Why not wait for the TV movie? God forbid anyone opine beforehand.

[JimDandy]

38. So true. Amazing that some of the posters don't understand this.

[Fozzledick]

43. I'm wondering how long until they start trying animals as humans.

You know, for committing "human" crimes.

[Adam051188]

47. the dog pound is a scary place.

Lucky poops in front of people's windows and shhhhhhhhh....but i don't always pick it up.

[ZombieHorde]

46. We are the prison capital of the world.

You really expect Americans to not want to lock someone up? Voting may only be for some 18+, but prison is for everyone, except some of the super rich.

[Adam051188]

50. you forgot your sarcasm tag

i wish george carlin was still around. he's make this whole thread seem funny in some awesomely creative way.

[Nevernose]

51. They might have a formula

In my metropolitan jurisdiction, 16 and 17 accused of murder, attempted murder, or sexual assault is automatically requested to transfer to adult court. A juvenile prosecutor is simply inequipped to handle it.

I'm not saying it's right (because "trying someone as an adult" totally defeats the purpose/paradigm of juvenile court), but that's often the way it is.

[oldandhappy]

52. Once again, conclusions first!

Best to let this rest for 24 hours.

[Warpy]

55. If the kid is black, it takes a nanosecond.

If the kid is white, it depends on how rich the parents are. If he comes from a "nice" family, ie one with millions and a McMansion, he'll be tried as a kid.

[CFLDem]

70. Not for a mass violence event.

Money might stop the perp from death penalty or life in jail, but has no bearing on adult vs juvenile.

[Adam051188]

56. way too fast.

i agree completely.

[muriel_volestrangler]

60. Are you saying that he will not be able to use his mental state as a defense?

What's the problem with someone universally thought to have stabbed over 20 people being locked up, and his lawyer having to show that he was mentally ill? We know he can't be free at the moment - either he needs incarceration, or secure treatment for several years until he's not a threat to anyone.

[RandiFan1290]

61. Long enough to check the family bank account? nt

[sendero]

63. Assuming..

... media reports are correct and this is the right guy, about 1 minute.

It's not like it is an irreversible decision.

[B2G]

66. What do you propose they should have done?

Send him home to Mommy & Daddy until the crime scene was fully processed?

You can rest assured that he will be given a psychological enema and it will be used in his defence at his trial. But in the meantime, he needs to be removed from society.

[ismnotwasm]

67. I don't know

I just know that it's wrong.

[Savannahmann]

68. Interesting topic

I think the biggest problem is that people expect instant gratification in our current culture. If you'll allow me to segway a bit, I'd like to use baseball as an example of this trend.

The Knuckleball is a well known pitch that is designed to strike batters out. It is incredibly difficult to throw. It takes the hands of a safe cracker and the mental discipline of a Zen Master. It is disliked in baseball because it is impossible to know how each pitch is going to behave. Bob Uecker was the catcher for Phil Nekro, a Knuckleball pitcher. Uecker said that the easiest way to catch a Knuckleball was to wait until it stopped rolling and then pick it up.

Why is the Knuckleball hated by fans? The fans want to see the 95 MPH fastball. They want to see the big hit that goes deep, and is caught at the wall, or sails over the wall. The Knuckleball is slow, and if the batter gets a piece of the ball it's luck, or the pitcher is off his game. You don't know where the ball is going, and that makes it very difficult to put your bat in the way. Today, there is one pitcher left that throws the Knuckleball. R. A. Dickey of the Toronto Blue Jays. One out of 378 pitchers in Major League Baseball.

Thank you for indulging my segway for an analogy.

The news cycle is a similar situation where pressure is on the participants to react quickly. If the DA had said that they were investigating and would make a decision on the question when the evidence was in, the pundits and press would all be screaming. They would want to know how much information is needed to know that the 16 year old has done this terrible thing. Gathering information takes time. People on psychiatric hold are normally observed for at least three days. This gives the psychiatrist time to find out what is going on, at least a glimpse into the workings of the mind.

The other problem is the psychiatric problems are misunderstood, and distrusted. People hear about a depressed person, and assume that the depression is no worse than when that individual had a case of the blues so to speak. It isn't the same by any stretch of the imagination. Why didn't he display any problems before is another question people will ask. The onset of puberty causes huge hormonal imbalances in people, male and female. This can cause an imbalance in the chemicals that regulate personality in the brain. That imbalance may be manageable, or may be a sudden onset.

This stigma of psychiatric arts is one of the biggest hurdles we have to overcome. One of the things we celebrated was the inclusion of psychiatric care into the ACA. Yet we want to limit those who get such care. I don't want anyone to own guns, but even those who are notionally for private ownership of firearms will agree that those who are receiving counseling should not own. I'm not sure that is a good idea. The stigma that is attached to such care may prevent someone from seeking the treatment they need. We talk about taking care of things while they are small like heart conditions, before they get bad enough to lead to a heart attack, or requiring expensive surgery. But we don't talk about psychiatric care in the same way. The stigma of such care is the huge hurdle.

We had a friend some time ago who had a nervous breakdown. She was embarrassed to tell us about it, reluctant that we would be judgmental toward her. I told her that the mind is much like a bone, when it breaks, and is healed, it is much stronger than it was before. The relief on her face was priceless. We were not going to think less of her, we were not going to judge her. Her trust in us was justified, and rewarded. I told her that everyone has times when they feel overwhelmed. If that feeling becomes so bad that you can no longer deal with it get help. There is nothing wrong with going to an oncologist when you think you may have cancer. We don't look down on people who see a cardiologist when there is an issue with their hearts. We don't belittle those who see a EENT specialist to deal with a problem there. Why must we announce that so and so is nuttier than a fruitcake because they need help in addressing a similar medical problem? And make no mistake, minds that have slipped their moorings, and are tossed upon the turbulent seas of difficulty are a medical problem. We can treat so many of them, and so many people would never have an incident if the same desire to get people help with liver disease existed with those who have mental diseases.

I hope this addressed your question. The desire for instant gratification requires that people respond instantly long before any facts can be known. The stigma attached to psychiatric care is often a stumbling block toward getting those who need help the care that would improve their lives dramatically.

[yallerdawg]

71. Our justice system

We have a system of punishment and revenge (coincidentally Old Testament style?).

We have lost justice and mercy. The ideal.

No bleeding heart liberals here?

[Blue_Tires]

72. Well, it's a guaranteed conviction in a high-profile case

so it figures they would pull out all the stops...

[MO_Moderate]

73. The minute they saw what the evil bastard did.

So probably just one.