the Big Lie that a 'coup' lead to Yanukovych leaving power

[geek tragedy]

In 2004, the Ukrainian Parliament approved constitutional provisions limiting the power of the president and placing them in the hands of Parliament, making it more like a traditional parliamentary system and less like the US system. This was in the wake of the sitting government's rampant fraud and abuse of the electoral process in order to install Viktor Yanukovych, who subsequently lost the rescheduled election that was deemed fair and open by international monitors.

In 2010, Yanukovych was elected president after hiring a team of Republican political hacks and Koch brothers allies to run his campaign. Within six months, he and his party moved to declare the six-year old constitutional provisions null and void. The courts--over which he had considerable influence-- in Ukraine did so, and thus Yanukovych began the process of concentrating virtually all power in his office. Not coincidentally, his personal wealth reached as high as $12 Billion by 2014. Not too shabby for a civil servant. Of course, in the mean time his poltical rivals were put in prison.

Fast-forward to February 21, 2014. The accord agreed to by all parties concerned--and the one that Russia is promoting right now restored those constitutional provisions.

The next day, he fled the capital and headed for Russian territory fearing prosecution for his alleged crimes in office. The parliament voted OVERWHELMINGLY to impeach him and to declare him unable to carry out his duties (which is accurate given the fact he had fled the country).

And of course, he called it a 'coup' and this has been his regime's talking point from that moment, and now his sympathizers in the Kremlin and beyond are calling it that as well.

[okaawhatever]

1. I don't understand the "and the one that Russia is promoting right now" statement. Russia

refused to sign the deal in the first place. They may be promoting it, but it likely is just more propaganda designed to sow confusion, fact is, they didn't support it and didn't sign it. I have stopped listening to what Putin says and rely only on what he does. He's inherently dishonest.

Also, you might want to clarify that the election was rescheduled because fraud was found on the part of Yanukovych.

[geek tragedy]

3. they kind of hedged on the agreement at the time--they didn't sign it and then

said "just because we didn't sign it means we disagree with it."

Russia is now all about the February 21, 2014 agreement which would have stripped Yanukovych of most of his powers and called for new elections. What they don't explain is why Yanukovych's abdication by fleeing is a coup.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

2. Thanks for the perspective

[TampaAnimusVortex]

4. Except for that 5 billion the US spent to destabilize the Ukraine...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/american-conquest-by-subversion-victoria-nulands-admits-washington-has-spent-5-billion-to-subvert-ukraine/5367782

That couldn't have anything to do with it of course... The US doesn't have a history of say mucking around with the internal affairs of other countries.

[geek tragedy]

5. there has been deep division and discontent in the Ukraine for over a decade now

Yanukovych's regime was deeply corrupt and abusive, it's really dumb to claim that Ukrainians were content with that until some US agents started whispering in their ears

[TampaAnimusVortex]

6. Of course they were, after the US arranged the Orange Revolution...

You would be upset too if your country was taken over by corrupt politicians bought and paid for by two different sets of superpowers.

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2004/11/29/the-yushchenko-mythos/

Now they get to see a repeat performance.

[geek tragedy]

7. Justin Raimondo is a liberatarian nutjob. The claim that the US "arranged the Orange Revolution"

is pure idiocy.

Give me a fucking break. As if Ukrainians are incapable of doing anything on their own.

Anyone who needs to link to a kook site like that loses the argument.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

8. Claiming victory with no proof eh?

Granted, neither of us have absolute proof of what the truth is here. You don't, I don't. So please... spare me the pretend pious theatrics. It's silly and we both know pointless.

We also both know it's entirely more than likely that the story is true and the US is doing everything in it's power to strategically destabilize a country on the border of one of it's largest enemies. To put on blinders to such an obvious scenario would be to follow such blind nationalism that one can only hope they don't put you in charge of the ministry of propaganda.

[geek tragedy]

9. "we also both know it's entirely more than likely that the story is true"

You and your fellow antiwar.com readers may believe that absurd fantasy, but those of us in the reality-based community don't.

Cheers

[TampaAnimusVortex]

10. So your conceding the logic to my side then... fine, Ill take it.

All you have it argument by association? And an incorrect one at that really, given I personally don't go there like... hardly ever... but if that's all you have, then that means I have the logical side of this discussion.

Cheers yourself. Let me know when you have an actual substantial attack on the content.

[geek tragedy]

11. besides the fact it's all implausible speculation that would

make a birther blush?

The US did not cause Ukrainians to object to abuse of power and election rigging. Ukrainians object to that stuff without us telling them to.

Absurd on its face.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

12. So you say... with your implausible speculation...

Your suggestion is that the US ignores all its past behavior and suddenly decides to not interfere with the internal affairs of a country that is strategically important, and on the border of one of its largest enemies. Right..... Who do you expect to believe that?

[geek tragedy]

13. No, I'm saying that the theory that the Ukrainians are mindless puppets

of the US who wouldn't object to an abusive and corrupt government is really, really, really insulting to Ukrainians,

In order to believe that nutjob theory, one must either believe:

1) Yanukovych was doing a really awesome job in office and there wasn't any reason for Ukrainians to be upset with him; or

2) Ukrainians are a bunch of stupid sheep incapable of standing up to an abusive, corrupt government without being prodded into it by the US psy ops.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

14. It doesn't matter at this point...

We both know it makes all the sense in the world. I don't expect you to say so at this point of course. People rarely admit to changing their views... so I will allow you the final statement. Now that the idea has been introduced, much like the hidden arrow in the Fedex logo, it can never be unseen once seen.

Cheers!

[geek tragedy]

15. Don't flatter yourself. nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

16. Here's the thing about conspiracy theorists:

They need to actually prove, not just speculate.

If they want to challenge the generally accepted account of events by the mainstream, fine. But until they actually prove it with solid, irrefutable evidence, they don't get to claim equal status with the generally accepted mainstream account of events. That's not how it works.

Right now, all accounts are that Ukrainians, fed up with corruption in their government and increased Russian meddling, engaged in mass protests on their own accord. These protests began peacefully but after the government cracked down on the protests, violence escalated to the point where numerous protests were shot dead. Ultimately, President Yanukovych chose to flee Ukraine, thus resulting in the Rada removing him from power and appointing an interim government (lead not by ultranationalists and neo-nazis but by centrists) until elections could be held later this year.

Now, if you want to challenge those generally accepted account of events, fine, but it will take more than "journalistic pieces" sourced by the likes of Voice of Russia and Paul Craig Roberts to convince most people.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

25. It's not about conspiracy theory, its about logic.

If your putting all your trust in the main stream news sources, I suggest you read this and understand the implications in how that can affect us, with out military/industrial complex:

http://www.businessinsider.com/these-6-corporations-control-90-of-the-media-in-america-2012-6

and even local news is scripted almost word for word...

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/83754317/

So... we can see that mainstream media is hardly an authoritative source anymore...

So, with that debunked - you have to return to the actual logic of the situation. You don't get to wave your hand away at all the countervailing evidence. - like the billions the US has been shoveling into the country... exactly for what reason? Were told the reason is "building democratic institutions"... What does that mean exactly? Who knows?

Is Russian pouring money into Mexico and Canada? I doubt it, but it's possible... I'm open for any evidence you want to present.

Is it strategically important that the US and Europe destabilize the Ukraine? You bet your ass it is. There are a lot of great resources in the country - which is why the trade agreements with the rest of NATO were being set in place (and blew up tail end of last year)

Also it's important for NATO to have Ukraine as a buffer for Europe as far as land incursions and to develop a containment policy against Russia.

Or...

A lot of people just got angry that their politicians are crooks... Right... Because that's news

Trust your brain... not what your told.

[bemildred]

27. Main stream media is not worth a bucket of warm spit

if you want to understand what is happening in the world and to have some chance to see what is coming and adapt to it. Only on the web can you get a range and diversity of opinion sufficient to have some clues.

Edit: it is a mistake to read it at all, except to find out what propaganda is being catapulted at present.

[BainsBane]

30. Jeez. How can you possibly think the US can stage a revolution

One, we are simply not that powerful. Two, that statement shows a profound contempt for social movements.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

32. You don't read much history do you?

How hard is it to pay people to lead organizations that lead and recruit others to stir up trouble?

What do you think that 5 billion dollars went to?

How do you explain things like this?

http://beforeitsnews.com/war-and-conflict/2014/02/cia-agent-captured-in-ukraine-helping-ukranian-protesters-video-here-2450486.html

[BainsBane]

33. No, I don't read much history

Not much at all. I got my PhD in history from a crackerjacks box.

[karynnj]

23. Look at the quote and you will see that it is questionable

“After three visits to Ukraine in five weeks, Victoria Nuland explains that in the past two decades, the United States has spent five Billion dollars ($5,000,000,000) to subvert Ukraine, and assures her listeners that there are prominent businessmen and government officials who support the US project to tear Ukraine away from its historic relationship with Russia and into the US sphere of interest (via “Europe”).

Does ANYONE honestly believe that Nuland explained what they said? What is far more likely is that Nuland spoke of the sum of money spent there in foreign aid and for USAID, which has helped various countries with development projects. (I do NOT dispute that the intent was to strength the Ukraine after it moved away from Russia when the USSR split up - that is very different than the claim made.

To me, this statement alone discredits the article. Much of that money would have been spent at a point before Ukraine elected a pro Russian President - and likely included money given to the Ukrainian government.

[The Magistrate]

24. Jesus, Fella! You Might As Well Cite Alex Jones....

[pampango]

17. He still had the army and security forces behind him. If he had simply stayed in Kiev,

he would still be president today. And he would have had 10 months before the election to make his case for the economic deal with Russia rather than the EU. We would not be where we are today with Russia controlling Crimea.

[geek tragedy]

18. I guess Mark Sanford was the victim of a coup

when he hiked on the Appalachian trail.

He left the country--how they call that a coup is a mystery.

[joshcryer]

29. Indeed.

Hell, if he didn't escalate against the protesters no one would even be caring about Ukraine today.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

19. The basic narrative of "It was all a coup!"

So Yanukovych gets democratically elected in 2010, and in the next four years he does nothing that would warrant mass protests from the Ukrainian people. Because corruption happens everywhere, so just deal with it, okay?

Then a bunch of neo-nazi ultra-nationalists go into Kiev and throw rocks and sticks and bottles and shit, probably because the US or EU or somebody paid them to do so. Because if you want to enact regime change to get your guy into power, paying lots and lots of people money to protest is the most efficient and effective way to do so.

Then the all-powerful failed US Presidential candidate John McCain comes in on McCain Force One and stands on a stage, looking slightly constipated. And Victoria Nuland passes out sandwiches, or maybe donuts (pampushky as they are known locally).

Then the neo-Nazi ultra-nationalists go back to throwing rocks and sticks and bottles and shit.

Then some of the neo-Nazi ultranationalists get shot by snipers, but really, they were probably just shooting themselves, so whateves.

Then someone waves a magic wand, God comes out of the machine, and Yanukoyvch is no longer the Ukrainian president and Svoboda is now in charge. Pretty much permanently, because it's not like they've scheduled elections in the upcoming months.

And clearly it's Svoboda who the US/UK/EU/CIA/IMF/NATO wants in charge, because when you think people who outside foreign powers think are the easiest to have their bidding done on their behalf, it's domestic ultranationalists.

Oh, and did I mention that it's the ultranationalist neo-nazis who are now in charge of Ukraine, and not an interim government lead by moderate centrists? Because that's what it is.

Oh, and Russia invades Crimea with its very special force of Not Russian Russian Troops, but that's okay. Not that we like Putin or anything, but back in the day Russia controlled Crimea for its very special Russification/Expelling the Tartars project, so really it's not like it's foreign soil for them. Plus, Ukraine outlawed the speaking of Russian in Ukraine, so there's that, too.

Plus we as Americans are morally prohibited from criticizing Russia's actions because our last idiot of a President also invaded a foreign country on pretextual purposes. And once that is done, there is no way for us to reflect on our past errors and take a different approach from that point forward.

Obviously. Duh.

[geek tragedy]

20. + 12 billion. nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

21. I had to post it as an OP. nt

[treestar]

22. Great post

[KansDem]

26. Finally, some sense to this head-scratch

Thanks

[Cha]

31. We raged, marched, and protested against bush, didn't we?

[Sobriquet]

28. I think I may have found footage

...of Yankovich's collusion with the CIA.

I moved out to Langley recently
With a plain and simple dream;
Want to infiltrate some third world place (Whoa)
And topple their regime.
Those men in black with their matching suitcases,
Where everything's on a need to know basis --
Agents got that swagger,
Everyone's so cloak and dagger!
I'm feeling nervous but I'm really kinda wishing
For an undercover mission,
That's when the red alert came on the radio
And I put my ear piece on,
Got my dark sunglasses on,
And I had my weapon drawn...!

So I get my handcuffs,
My cyanide pills,
My classified dossier;
Tapping the phones like yeah!
Shredding the files like yeah!
I memorized all the enemy spies I gotta neutralize today
Yeah! It's a party in the CIA!
Yeah! It's a party in the CIA!

I've done a couple of crazy things
That have almost gotten me dismissed:
Like terminate some head of state
Who wasn't even on my list.
Burn that microfilm, buddy, will you?
I'd tell you why but then I'd have to kill you
You need a quickie confession?
We'll start a water boarding session!

No hurry on that South American dictator,
I'll assassinate him later.
That's when he walked right in my laser sights --
And my silencer was on,
And my silencer was on,
And another target's gone...!

Yeah, we got our black ops all over the world
From Kazakhstan to Bombay,
Paying the bribes like yeah!
Plugging the leaks like yeah!
Interrogating the scum of the earth,
We'll break 'em by the break of day.
Yeah! It's a party in the CIA!
Yeah! It's a party in the CIA!

Need a country destabilized (stabilized)?
Look no further, we're your guys (we're your guys)
We've got snazzy suits and ties (suits and ties)
And a better dental plan than the FBI's

Better put your hands up, and get in the van
Or else you'll get blown away (Blown away!)
Staging a coup like yeah!
Brainwashing moles like yeah!
We only torture the folks we don't like --
You're probably gonna be OK (You're gonna be OK!)
Yeah! It's a party in the CIA!
Yeah! It's a party in the CIA!