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xchrom

(108,903 posts)
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:43 PM Mar 2014

let's make capitalism a dirty word

http://www.nationofchange.org/lets-make-capitalism-dirty-word-1394115317

Immediately upon entering adulthood, Americans are forced to compete for increasingly-scarce employment. The purpose of most employment isn't to create value for society or future generations, but to create profits for a scant few executives and shareholders. In order to be competitive enough to gain employment, Americans are expected to take on so much debt for a higher education that most of the income gained in their adult years will be spent paying off that debt.

In return for all their hard work, Americans who aren't executives or shareholders are paid just enough to meet basic needs like food, clothing, and shelter. Under the capitalist system, the majority of life for today's average American before retirement is spent pursuing profits that will never be shared with them. And because capitalists like Pete Peterson and the Koch Brothers are so determined to weaken Social Security in the pursuit of ever-increasing profits, even retirement is unstable.

As a system predicated on the need to grow endlessly and never stagnate, capitalism is doomed to fail. I've written previously on this site about how capitalism is currently in its endgame, similar to the endgame of Monopoly, where one player has accumulated nearly all of the property and money, and all the other players are afraid to make any moves at all, lest they land on the wrong square and are destroyed by debt.

Capitalism is succeeding exactly like it's supposed to – all the resources and wealth are concentrating into fewer and fewer hands and corporate profits are hitting record highs every quarter. The Dow Jones and S&P 500 are doing better than they've ever done in decades. Worker productivity and Gross Domestic Product has increased at a rapid pace, yet wages are stagnant.
111 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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let's make capitalism a dirty word (Original Post) xchrom Mar 2014 OP
Got an alternative? brooklynite Mar 2014 #1
crapitalism. pansypoo53219 Mar 2014 #2
Like this! calimary Mar 2014 #5
Well Played [background sound of polite golf clap] BodieTown Mar 2014 #25
Perfect! Cleptotalism. grahamhgreen Mar 2014 #105
Something that doesn't do this: Starry Messenger Mar 2014 #14
Got an alternative? brooklynite Mar 2014 #16
Yes, something that doesn't do this: Starry Messenger Mar 2014 #17
So, no then... brooklynite Mar 2014 #18
Yep, I do. But you'll hate it. Starry Messenger Mar 2014 #20
Never said I didn't have issue with it... brooklynite Mar 2014 #29
"seems like the only economic structure to work with" TBF Mar 2014 #97
capitalism does not ipso facto qazplm Mar 2014 #36
Yes it does. Starry Messenger Mar 2014 #58
Hmmm... Veilex Mar 2014 #75
What is "properly managed" capitalism? nt TBF Mar 2014 #98
"Properly managed" capitalism is like riding a hungry tiger....... socialist_n_TN Mar 2014 #110
Thanks for your contribute, Ayn Rand! WhaTHellsgoingonhere Mar 2014 #111
85% tax from all sources (gross not net) after first billion. aquart Mar 2014 #33
Too Gentle Treant Mar 2014 #39
I'm fine with that. Or we could knock 5% off each of your levels and compromise. aquart Mar 2014 #42
Do you? YoungDemCA Mar 2014 #45
A political system that isn't controlled by the ultra wealthy and corporations. Enthusiast Mar 2014 #64
Democratic Socialism pscot Mar 2014 #70
Got an example where it works? brooklynite Mar 2014 #72
I do... Veilex Mar 2014 #78
No idea what you're talking about... brooklynite Mar 2014 #82
Look back to the Economic Security Act of 1935. Veilex Mar 2014 #84
I would say that Social Democrary is NOT Democratic Socialism brooklynite Mar 2014 #85
Perhaps I should add some clarification... Veilex Mar 2014 #88
Europe. Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2014 #22
Europe does capitalism right. nt hack89 Mar 2014 #30
Imagine having a cop in boardrooms making sure they stay legal. Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2014 #50
And with real workers next to the cop. nt hack89 Mar 2014 #51
the alternative is a more creative imagination... LanternWaste Mar 2014 #23
You like Reagan/Rand trickle up economics? n/t sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #59
Regulated Capitalism! BlueJac Mar 2014 #65
Yep, common ownership of private property and the use of our resources to benefit the many. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #67
Regulated capitalism, with a slice of socialism to guarantee a minimum standard of living. tclambert Mar 2014 #68
"Regulated capitalism, with a slice of socialism"... Veilex Mar 2014 #81
Here's an idea... ReRe Mar 2014 #71
Regulated capitalism The Wizard Mar 2014 #73
yeah.. 2banon Mar 2014 #93
Heavily regulated capitalism with a truly progressive tax structure and adequate social safety net. HughBeaumont Mar 2014 #108
It is already a dirty word in my book. PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #3
Well, they sure did it to the word "liberal." I think payback is CERTAINLY in order! calimary Mar 2014 #4
Also CEO Springslips Mar 2014 #6
lawyers huh? qazplm Mar 2014 #38
To bring it back to what my point is I say this: Springslips Mar 2014 #57
What do you call a thousand lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? The_Commonist Mar 2014 #104
Not CEO. Overpaid CEO. aquart Mar 2014 #44
No, all CEOs. Springslips Mar 2014 #61
I wasn't parsing. aquart Mar 2014 #92
Well, the computer you're typing on... TreasonousBastard Mar 2014 #7
this is perhaps the ultimate expression of the Stockholm Syndrome.... mike_c Mar 2014 #9
OK, name me the other system that would... TreasonousBastard Mar 2014 #11
that's true.... mike_c Mar 2014 #32
so IOW qazplm Mar 2014 #40
frankly, I think the key to making a social democracy work long term... mike_c Mar 2014 #43
You can't "manage" capitalism without cprise Mar 2014 #46
Capitalism has to be VERY heavily regulated to work, and has to be balanced with populist loudsue Mar 2014 #10
That part we've figured out... TreasonousBastard Mar 2014 #13
WE'VE figured it out FiveGoodMen Mar 2014 #55
Like Sweden? That would be my model. nt hack89 Mar 2014 #31
Sweden, even Germany & France....even Great Britain is better off than we are. loudsue Mar 2014 #34
But those regulations have been undone over the past several decades.... YoungDemCA Mar 2014 #47
That's for sure. The republicans infiltrated our party after the Powell Manifesto edict loudsue Mar 2014 #53
Are you the type to buy a computer every time yours gets slow? Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2014 #26
Do they have to lie in the first sentence? snooper2 Mar 2014 #8
Let's stop demonizing tools Vox Moi Mar 2014 #12
stop qazplm Mar 2014 #41
Corporatism? OilemFirchen Mar 2014 #48
I'd rather see rrneck Mar 2014 #15
You're going to need a new planet with a much, much MineralMan Mar 2014 #19
Capitalism is easily the best system LittleBlue Mar 2014 #21
How do you earn a living, xchrome? MineralMan Mar 2014 #24
Dunno about xchrome, but... TreasonousBastard Mar 2014 #28
Well, I didn't really expect an answer. MineralMan Mar 2014 #37
And for technology to progress... yawnmaster Mar 2014 #91
Ahem, ReRe Mar 2014 #80
I think I'll wait for xchrom to answer. MineralMan Mar 2014 #87
Okey-dokey ;-) ReRe Mar 2014 #90
How about using the German word? "Kapitalismus" KansDem Mar 2014 #27
"But... But... But it's natural I tell you!! It's been here forever!! Got an alternative??11?" Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #35
What's wrong with having workers own the means of production? Maedhros Mar 2014 #49
No issue with this as long as they take the risk OnlinePoker Mar 2014 #95
That's another thing that needs to go: commodities markets based on speculation [n/t] Maedhros Mar 2014 #100
At this point the corruption in capitalism is worse than Phlem Mar 2014 #52
Sigh. Capitalism is NOT a dirty word. Laelth Mar 2014 #54
How about we just stop confusing "capitalism" with laissez-faire policies, cronyism... Silent3 Mar 2014 #56
Pragmatic Capitalism vs. Fundamentalist, Laissez-Faire Capitalism is the winning argument C0RYH0FFMAN Mar 2014 #60
What you're missing... Springslips Mar 2014 #69
The right didn't do, it is what it is and it didn't start in 1950 TheKentuckian Mar 2014 #107
Who let the Marxist in?! illachick Mar 2014 #62
a mixed economy is probably the best we can do now LiberalLovinLug Mar 2014 #63
HEY CAPITALIST! bobGandolf Mar 2014 #66
Capitalism is fundementally flawed. Oakenshield Mar 2014 #74
I like where your going with that. Phlem Mar 2014 #79
It was dirty from the start. DeSwiss Mar 2014 #76
There you go, DeSwiss! ReRe Mar 2014 #86
Kick for Bucky dreamnightwind Mar 2014 #102
Thanks to Wall Street, it already IS a four letter word! Rex Mar 2014 #77
But if we tried to set up an alternative system, Zorra Mar 2014 #83
Ah. sibelian Mar 2014 #94
K&R ReRe Mar 2014 #89
Don't have to...already a filthy word...like the 'filthy rich'! Rex Mar 2014 #96
This reads like a right-wing caricature of left-wing idiocy, I'm afraid. Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2014 #99
There is good and bad in capitalism as applegrove Mar 2014 #101
Not possible. n/t cherokeeprogressive Mar 2014 #103
We need to have a completely new system... N_E_1 for Tennis Mar 2014 #106
No let's make deregulation a dirty word. Initech Mar 2014 #109

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
14. Something that doesn't do this:
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:18 PM
Mar 2014

" all the resources and wealth are concentrating into fewer and fewer hands and corporate profits are hitting record highs every quarter."

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
17. Yes, something that doesn't do this:
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:20 PM
Mar 2014

"all the resources and wealth are concentrating into fewer and fewer hands and corporate profits are hitting record highs every quarter."

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
20. Yep, I do. But you'll hate it.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:26 PM
Mar 2014

There are tons of alternatives that don't do this: "all the resources and wealth are concentrating into fewer and fewer hands and corporate profits are hitting record highs every quarter."

Which I notice you have no criticism for.

brooklynite

(94,603 posts)
29. Never said I didn't have issue with it...
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:39 PM
Mar 2014

Since the point of this OP is that Capitalism in and of itself is bad, I'm wondering what people want to substitute it with. I'm always working to reform economic conditions within the Capitalist framework which, absent the presentation of a viable alternative, seems like the only economic structure to work with.

TBF

(32,068 posts)
97. "seems like the only economic structure to work with"
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 08:04 PM
Mar 2014

There are market economies, planned economies and mixed economies. How do you see only one?

The purpose of your comment, I believe, is to shut down discussion by claiming there is only capitalism. That's simply not true.

qazplm

(3,626 posts)
36. capitalism does not ipso facto
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:47 PM
Mar 2014

do what you quoted.

The way we are doing it has resulted in that, but that is not necessarily the only possible outcome of capitalism that is properly managed.

So your premise is flawed, and he's right, what's going to replace it, and how will it be better?

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
58. Yes it does.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 03:48 PM
Mar 2014

Perhaps you are from a parallel universe, and if so, I apologize. But that's what it did here on planet Earth, which anyone with a pair of eyes can see.

It will be replaced because it is destroying the fucking Earth. So it's that, or certain prolonged planetary death in the coming time. That alone will make its replacement better.

 

Veilex

(1,555 posts)
75. Hmmm...
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:52 PM
Mar 2014

"capitalism that is properly managed" while this is true of capitalism, the same could be said for anything "properly managed". The problem is that we have to account for those who will, by nature are greedy, and seek to exploit and/or break the system.

In essence, we're not able to look at capitalism under ideal circumstances... because we'll never have them. Vigilance is pretty much the only thing that keeps any power hungry group from corrupting an economic or governance system.

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
110. "Properly managed" capitalism is like riding a hungry tiger.......
Fri Mar 7, 2014, 10:29 PM
Mar 2014
(and I know you know how the rest of this goes), it's VERY hard to do and you're always in danger of being eaten.

In short, there's no such thing as "properly managed" capitalism, at least not over the long term.
 

WhaTHellsgoingonhere

(5,252 posts)
111. Thanks for your contribute, Ayn Rand!
Fri Mar 7, 2014, 10:48 PM
Mar 2014

Capitalism is, in fact, a system that produces a "winners versus losers" society, and its "winners" will always buy the rules so that they can win in perpetuity.

Don't care what a capitalist utopia is supposed to look like. It's a game for wealthy people and this is the way it will always be played.

aquart

(69,014 posts)
33. 85% tax from all sources (gross not net) after first billion.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:43 PM
Mar 2014

75% from all sources (gross not net) after $500 million.

Pay for our wars. Repair our infrastructure. Put AMERICANS back to work.

Or drag out a guillotine and get busy.

Treant

(1,968 posts)
39. Too Gentle
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:50 PM
Mar 2014

95% tax after first billion per year gross.
85% at 500 million
75% at 100 million
60% at 10 million

Below that we can argue it out, but I'd like to see a rapidly reducing tax under 500,000. That should set the bar high enough that even big-city people have enough to live on, rent a decent place, and so on.

aquart

(69,014 posts)
42. I'm fine with that. Or we could knock 5% off each of your levels and compromise.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:58 PM
Mar 2014

The point is that redistribution of all that legislated theft of American wealth has become a necessity, not the dirty word the Republicans are trying to make it. EVERY time they trot out makers and takers, answer with "the rich take everything, leave nothing for anyone else. They're like locusts. Leeches, sucking American treasure out of the ground, the streets, the now-empty factories, leaving us nothing in their endless greed for more car elevators in their multiple mansions."

Reframe. Reframe. Reframe.

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
64. A political system that isn't controlled by the ultra wealthy and corporations.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:02 PM
Mar 2014

The .01% have usurped our democracy. We want it back.

We want our nation to be by and for the people. We are tired of uncaring corporations crafting their own regulations at our expense. We are tired of financial malfeasance going unpunished. We are tired of war profiteers.

 

Veilex

(1,555 posts)
78. I do...
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:55 PM
Mar 2014

look to the most prosperous times in our own history. What you'll find is that we were under a Democratic socialistic state at the time.

 

Veilex

(1,555 posts)
84. Look back to the Economic Security Act of 1935.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:04 PM
Mar 2014

That's the start of one Democratic socialist era, here in the US.

brooklynite

(94,603 posts)
85. I would say that Social Democrary is NOT Democratic Socialism
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:12 PM
Mar 2014

Social Democracy is generally defined as capitalism with a strong social support network and an activist Government role. Once SocialISM gets added, you are falling into an are where (Democratic or not) The Government is assumed to control means of production. That hasn't happened here to my recollection.

 

Veilex

(1,555 posts)
88. Perhaps I should add some clarification...
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:31 PM
Mar 2014

The style of government at the time was more of a democratic socialism, which acted as a regulating force on our capitalistic economy.
It worked at the time...

Regardless, I'm all for what you've defined as Social Democracy.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
23. the alternative is a more creative imagination...
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:30 PM
Mar 2014

An alternative to a social construct which appears nowhere but one's imagination? Sure, the alternative is a more creative imagination...

One would imagine that as we've allowed these imaginary constructs to dictate our lives, our families and our futures since the dawn of humanity, and that as we've progressed through one form of the imaginary to another, only the dogmatic or unimaginative mind would imply that we have reached the peak of imaginary social constructs...

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
67. Yep, common ownership of private property and the use of our resources to benefit the many.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:08 PM
Mar 2014

Not the pocketbooks of the few.

tclambert

(11,087 posts)
68. Regulated capitalism, with a slice of socialism to guarantee a minimum standard of living.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:08 PM
Mar 2014

A hybrid system. (Thesis, antithesis, synthesis.)

Regulations to limit the excesses of capitalism that always grow to threaten the whole system, so the successful predatory types don't eat everyone else. Socialism for the weakest, who can't win much in a competitive free-for-all. Even the poorest should be allowed to live. The simplest form of this (I think they proposed it in Switzerland) is to provide every person, even the undeserving poor, not just with a minimum wage but with a minimum income. It would be small, but enough to provide the necessities of life. If you want more, you can work for it. If you do extraordinarily valuable work, you get extraordinary rewards, but no need for those rewards to exceed 100 times what the average person makes.

And always, always, always everyone must remember that businesses are formed to serve the people, not the other way around. Profit is NOT NECESSARY. A reasonable profit is OK, but never should profit be valued above people's lives. Right now, a lot of our business leaders act as if they'll kill your children if it would result in a penny more of profit. Many have proven they are willing to poison lots of children in order to save a few bucks on environmental and safety measures.

We can allow the game of capitalism to function within certain boundaries. When it threatens to go out of bounds and hurt people, we must throw the penalty flag.

 

Veilex

(1,555 posts)
81. "Regulated capitalism, with a slice of socialism"...
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:58 PM
Mar 2014

So, how we used to be before Reagan.
I'm down with that.

ReRe

(10,597 posts)
71. Here's an idea...
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:24 PM
Mar 2014

Last edited Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:01 PM - Edit history (1)

Make The Corporation pay the Military bill. After all, The Corporation has used the CIA and our Military to rape and pillage the earth since at least what? 1947 when the CIA was created? Wasn't the CIA created to go into countries and ready them for the entry of The Corporation? To rape their resources? Also, make them pay for R&D, infrastructure, etc., etc., etc. Edited here to add: And make them pay retroactively to 1947.

The Corporation needs to pay up. If we held THEIR feet to the fire, capitalism wouldn't be half bad.

The Wizard

(12,545 posts)
73. Regulated capitalism
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:29 PM
Mar 2014

which is what we had until recently as opposed to predatory capitalism which is what we have now would be preferable. Our current policy will destroy itself like sharks on a feeding frenzy eventually devouring each other into extinction.

HughBeaumont

(24,461 posts)
108. Heavily regulated capitalism with a truly progressive tax structure and adequate social safety net.
Fri Mar 7, 2014, 02:29 PM
Mar 2014

You know, the opposite of what we do here.

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
3. It is already a dirty word in my book.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:49 PM
Mar 2014

Trying to relay that message to as many as I can.

See my sig - Capitalism, the scourge of humanity.

Springslips

(533 posts)
6. Also CEO
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:53 PM
Mar 2014

I want to see it rank low with Lawyers and Used Car Dealers. We should have already done this. It is status that we have to go after. When they start renaming the position we will know we won.

qazplm

(3,626 posts)
38. lawyers huh?
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:48 PM
Mar 2014

Like President Obama? Like Thurgood Marshall? Like folks who work at the ACLU?
Plenty of lawyers who do a lot of good in this world.

Springslips

(533 posts)
57. To bring it back to what my point is I say this:
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 03:48 PM
Mar 2014

Yes, yes, yes there are wonderful people doing great work with the law, and the idea of lawyers being rotten is a horrible stereotype passed on by trite lawyer jokes and right wing memes. I shouldn't have mentioned the fact that, right or wrong, they rank low in professional trustworthiness.

But my point, if you read more carefully, is that we should, if we are going to make capitalism a dirty word, do to CEOs what others have done to lawyers.

That's it.

PS. there are also scores of used car salesmen that are honest good men and women too.

The_Commonist

(2,518 posts)
104. What do you call a thousand lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?
Fri Mar 7, 2014, 01:19 PM
Mar 2014

A good start!

Old joke...

My sister is a lawyer, and she's one of the good guys. She told me that joke. But as a whole, lawyers don't have a particularly favorable reputation.

Springslips

(533 posts)
61. No, all CEOs.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 03:53 PM
Mar 2014

Yes some are good. But you poison the well here; you destroy the status in the title; make them ashamed to have it; play guilt by association. When unions are attacked do you see the opposition parsing good unions from corrupt? No. They use the corruption to stain all unions. Thus we should do the same.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
7. Well, the computer you're typing on...
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:03 PM
Mar 2014

the router, the network you're using...

Your car, microwave, most of the things that make up whatever you're living in...

Where would they be?

Capitalism does have its uses, and the abuses are nowhere close to what the were in the first half of the 20th century. The reforms of the late 19th helped, but the Depression was seen by some as the end of capitalism. See how that worked?

And now we have another "end" to the system even without a major crash and Jim Fisk to help things along? I don't think so.

It's not perfect, but it's really the only one around.

mike_c

(36,281 posts)
9. this is perhaps the ultimate expression of the Stockholm Syndrome....
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:08 PM
Mar 2014

Wage slaves embracing slavery because they're afraid of the alternatives.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
11. OK, name me the other system that would...
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:12 PM
Mar 2014

solve all of the problems.

Don't forget the environment, care of the elderly, proper medical care for all, and better TV programming.

While coming up with the better system, don't forget that not everyone living in a capitalist economy is a "wage slave."

mike_c

(36,281 posts)
32. that's true....
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:41 PM
Mar 2014

Some are overseers, some are oligarchs, and so on. Some are undoubtedly just hangers on.

Of course, many of those are captivated by the myth that they can join the 1% or otherwise become beneficiaries of capitalism rather than grist for the mill, so they're disinclined to accept criticism of the system they see as offering them wealth and power, if only their ship would come in.

One need only look at history for examples of alternatives, although there are some strong lessons there, too. Modern capitalism is a product of the industrial revolution, after which it largely supplanted feudalism, at least in Europe (and arguably in parts of the colonial Americas). Both are based on maintenance of class separation and exploitation of workers, although I'd argue that for all it's excesses when the nobility wanted to go to war and such, feudalism was often more benevolent than capitalism has ever been, especially for craft and trades persons.

Socialism is another possibility, although the route from unfettered capitalism to true socialism has never been easy, and probably never will be. A socialist revolution isn't going to happen here, and it's ridiculous to even discuss the notion without some parameters about just what we mean by a "socialist revolution," i.e. what would the aftermath of such a revolution look like?

In the interim, I think a strong social democracy along the lines of some Scandinavian examples might be best. Strong economic engineering to insure social justice and prevent runaway inequity, for example. Free public education, health care, a basic income for all citizens, strong environmental and social justice ethics in business and government, and so on. In other words, highly constrained and regulated capitalism, but with banks and other financial institutions tightly controlled and made to serve the public good rather than to generate profit for their executives and share holders.

qazplm

(3,626 posts)
40. so IOW
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:50 PM
Mar 2014

managed capitalism.

And I suspect even in Scandinavia, the banks still seek to generate profit, they just have fewer (and less risky) ways of doing it.

mike_c

(36,281 posts)
43. frankly, I think the key to making a social democracy work long term...
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:59 PM
Mar 2014

...is to neuter the private banks and similar institutions, permanently, unless a banking model that produces useful services for the public good instead of serving personal greed becomes institutionalized. I don't know of any such model today, because private financial institutions by definition exist to create personal wealth for the few. Banking is a machine that was designed to facilitate personal greed-- envisioning banking for the public good is difficult and full of contradictions precisely because the profession is rooted in avarice.

cprise

(8,445 posts)
46. You can't "manage" capitalism without
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 03:02 PM
Mar 2014

...a socialist political force trying to make capitalism their b*tch. I think that's what the European experience boils down to.

Something like the US Democratic Party lacking any overt socialist ethos (and refusing to defend them) can't "manage" capitalism.

loudsue

(14,087 posts)
10. Capitalism has to be VERY heavily regulated to work, and has to be balanced with populist
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:12 PM
Mar 2014

policies in government AND in business. Only then is it worth saving. And, in fact, THEN it is a thing worth keeping.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
13. That part we've figured out...
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:16 PM
Mar 2014

although powerful forces are trying to make us forget it.

The thing is that any system we try is a human system, and humans are not known for working together over the long haul.

FiveGoodMen

(20,018 posts)
55. WE'VE figured it out
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 03:37 PM
Mar 2014

most of the voters have not.

And the preachers are telling their listeners that ruthless, unregulated capitalism was god's idea.

loudsue

(14,087 posts)
34. Sweden, even Germany & France....even Great Britain is better off than we are.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:43 PM
Mar 2014

Not a lot, but some!

 

YoungDemCA

(5,714 posts)
47. But those regulations have been undone over the past several decades....
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 03:03 PM
Mar 2014

And it's been a bipartisan affair.

loudsue

(14,087 posts)
53. That's for sure. The republicans infiltrated our party after the Powell Manifesto edict
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 03:32 PM
Mar 2014

started worming its way into every election in the '70's.

Vox Moi

(546 posts)
12. Let's stop demonizing tools
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:15 PM
Mar 2014

… and get this faux religion out of economics and politics. There is no 'Magic' in the marketplace anymore than there is moral virtue in choosing the same tool for every job and excluding all others from consideration.
Capitalism and Socialism and Corporatism and so on are tools. No builder ever got anywhere by calling his hammer good and his saw evil but we do that all the time with the strategies we use to build societies.
Capitalism does have merit in an environment where raw materials and capital are available to many or where a new product or service is introduced to the market.
Socialism has merit in mature industries which have become part of the infrastructure, like electricity and water and where the profit motive is antithetical to the service being rendered, such as Health Care.
A corporation is not a person and it's not a religion … it's a creation of law: a tool.
On top of it all is the idea that the purpose of government to regulate and facilitate the application of these tools where appropriate and not to deify one tool and condemn the other.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
19. You're going to need a new planet with a much, much
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:23 PM
Mar 2014

smaller population to do that, you know.

Good luck with that.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
21. Capitalism is easily the best system
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:27 PM
Mar 2014

It creates an enormous amount of wealth that no other system can create so efficiently.

Unfortunately the problem is in how we spend the tax money that the wealth creates.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
24. How do you earn a living, xchrome?
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:30 PM
Mar 2014

And how will you earn your living when capitalism is gone?

No specifics required. Just a general description. I'll wait, and then I'll have a response.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
28. Dunno about xchrome, but...
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:38 PM
Mar 2014

the usual answer is that when the new system arrives, nobody will be forced to "earn a living" and we'll all be happy with our wants and desires provided for-- presumably as we dance with the unicorns.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
37. Well, I didn't really expect an answer.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:48 PM
Mar 2014

Karl Marx really called for this back in the 19th Century in Das Kapital. The argument hasn't really changed since then, despite a huge increase in population and the utter failure of Marxism-based economic systems everywhere.

Typically, when someone does answer the question I asked, they ramble on about some sort of agrarian society, where everyone has a farm in their backyard or on their window ledge. Of course, almost nobody who waxes eloquent about non-capitalistic economic systems has actually ever lived in such a system, and is typing on a computer created by capitalism and transmitting their intellectual efforts over a commercial Internet.

In a small, agrarian society, capitalism can be replaced, of course, with any number of other non-technological economic systems. And yet, all of those systems are based on the kind of hard work we eschew as individuals. There are no tractors in such systems. There's no electricity. There is no computer technology. That's because such things are essentially impossible to create in a locally-based economy.

Most people don't live that way in the Western world. Nor do they have any desire to do so. Most would be incapable of doing so, in fact. That was the way people lived in the 18th and early 19th century in the United States, and they rid themselves of it as quickly as they could, as technologies made it possible. And capitalism created that technology.

All non-capitalistic societies are non-technological, because capitalism is the engine that creates and produces technology. I have no interest whatever in tilling the soil to get my food. None whatsoever.

I don't think many people have any interest in that. We all want, demand, and depend on the technology we have. Destroy capitalism, and that technology will disappear. It's a fool's quest.

yawnmaster

(2,812 posts)
91. And for technology to progress...
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:39 PM
Mar 2014

It requires the ideas of a small part of the population.
Not all are driven to create nor have the ability and that is absolutely fine.
The ideas then need to be realized, and capitalism is a very good toll for this.
As you say, without it, the ideas go nowhere as it takes resources to realize an idea to the point that society can benefit from it.
The idea that we could even exist without this tool is ridiculous.
One cannot create enough calories to live from a "backyard garden".

To toss out capitalism because there are some undesirable issues correlated with it, is like a teacher taking everyones pencils because someone drew a nasty picture using one.

ReRe

(10,597 posts)
80. Ahem,
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:57 PM
Mar 2014

... hey Mineral Man. Just because xchrom created this OP with the article, doesn't necessarily mean he supports the premise of it. It's an article he thought others would like to read and discuss. Go easy. (Did I miss his support of it somewhere? I do miss more and more these days. )

KansDem

(28,498 posts)
27. How about using the German word? "Kapitalismus"
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:37 PM
Mar 2014

I mean, just say it over and over a few times ..."Kapitalismus, Kapitalismus, Kapitalismus..."

Kinda has that...oh, you know...sinister "foreign" sound, don't you think?

Like, "it was kapitalismus that led to the American economy's downfall."

Remember "Das Kapital?" [font size="1"]oooooooooooo...sure you do![font size="2"]

Democracyinkind

(4,015 posts)
35. "But... But... But it's natural I tell you!! It's been here forever!! Got an alternative??11?"
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:47 PM
Mar 2014

It's almost comical if it weren't so sad.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
49. What's wrong with having workers own the means of production?
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 03:07 PM
Mar 2014

That way the people who put in the sweat, blood and tears get to fully realize the fruits of their labor.

No need to have a top heavy parasite class in charge of everything.

OnlinePoker

(5,722 posts)
95. No issue with this as long as they take the risk
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 07:21 PM
Mar 2014

Factories don't just appear. They have to be paid for. If the workers are willing to put up their own money to build the factory, then they should reap the rewards. But they also have to be willing to lose it all if the market for their product tanks.

Phlem

(6,323 posts)
52. At this point the corruption in capitalism is worse than
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 03:13 PM
Mar 2014

Last edited Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:53 PM - Edit history (1)

capitalism it's self.

We could call it shititalism right now but it needs to be supremely regulated to benefit all instead of just the 1%.

Congress, bought and paid for, Supreme Court stacked.

No one in control wants to change that save for a few like Warren and Sanders.



-p

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
54. Sigh. Capitalism is NOT a dirty word.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 03:35 PM
Mar 2014

In my world, a liberal is a capitalist who seeks to shield capitalism from its own excesses and who hopes to channel capitalism's productive energy into a system and society that creates wealth for all. Capitalism is certainly better than socialism--i.e. state ownership of all property.

Ultimately, capitalism works, and it works well, but it works better when liberal laws are in place to insure that all citizens benefit from it (and not just the wealthy few at the top).

It is serious error for liberals to disparage capitalism. Liberals are capitalists. We just want a sane, just, and humane capitalism.

-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--reposted as a new OP.

Silent3

(15,235 posts)
56. How about we just stop confusing "capitalism" with laissez-faire policies, cronyism...
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 03:37 PM
Mar 2014

...political corruption, and corporate welfare?

As a system predicated on the need to grow endlessly and never stagnate, capitalism is doomed to fail.

Capitalism isn't predicated on much of anything. It's more descriptive of what happens given a fairly minimal and unsurprising set of circumstances, like not going out of your way to block people from owning private property that might be designated "means of production", and having a minimal amount of freedom for people to choose to hire and/or work for other people.

The way some people hope to extract enormous and endless wealth and profit from a capitalist "system" (more "society in which capitalism largely describes economic activity" than a "system&quot may well be "predicated on the need to grow endlessly and never stagnate", but that goal and capitalism are not one in the same. In fact, basic market economics tells you that profits should tend toward zero -- the games necessary to keep profits high are not an intrinsic part of capitalism.

There's plenty of stuff that's screwed up in the way capitalism works in our country and the world, but little of that is capitalism itself.

To the extent that the wealth generated by capitalism "inevitably" leads to this, that, and the other great evil, capitalism is not at all unique among human institutions in that constant vigilance against abuse is required, and sometimes that vigilance will fail.

When someone comes up with an alternative system that creates intrinsic, guaranteed self-perpetuating goodness which will never, ever falter due to greed, ambition, public apathy, etc., then maybe I'll listen to this tired rhetoric about how capitalism "inevitably" leads to this or that terrible end. Until then, it's just pointless noise.

C0RYH0FFMAN

(20 posts)
60. Pragmatic Capitalism vs. Fundamentalist, Laissez-Faire Capitalism is the winning argument
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 03:51 PM
Mar 2014

I do not think that Progressives can win by making capitalism a dirty word. I think the winning argument is that we should be pragmatic capitalists instead of Laissez-faire capitalists or Fundamentalists. Fundamentalism of any kind is never good and Americans sense that. Americans are pragmatic by their very nature.

Here's the bottom line, for all of the wealth Capitalism creates, it has persistent problems with that wealth rising to the top like cream rather than "trickling down" and persistent problems with mass unemployment. We just need to harness the good parts of capitalism within a system that benefits those who end up being the worst off like John Rawls advocated in a Theory of Justice.

Currently there are 24 million people (at least) that would like a full time job but there are only 4 million full time jobs available. It is always the case that capitalism will not fully employ all of its citizens over a long period of time.

How should we pragmatically respond to that?

A New New Deal. A Job Guarantee + Guaranteed Income.

Fighting for Pragmatic Capitalism will drive out the fundamentalist, destructive capitalism favored by the GOP.

CoryHoffmanForCongress.com
twitter.com/C0RYH0FFMAN
www.facebook.com/CoryHoffmanForCongress

Springslips

(533 posts)
69. What you're missing...
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:13 PM
Mar 2014

Is that the meaning of 'capitalism' has been hijacked and changed. To say 'capitalism' is to refer to fundamentalist, laissez-faire neoliberal free marketism. The right has made sure of it. Anything done from the viewpoint of what you call 'pragmatic capitalism' will be called by the right 'socialism,' and will be referred to that way in the media.

TheKentuckian

(25,026 posts)
107. The right didn't do, it is what it is and it didn't start in 1950
Fri Mar 7, 2014, 02:19 PM
Mar 2014

For most of its existence capitalism has been laissez faire, the new deal period was based on plentiful and easily accessible resources, limited competition and need to distribute resources, no foresight to be concerned about the environment, Jim crow limiting who must benefit at home, a serious competing philosophy, and deep fear of killing the goose that lays the golden eggs by the wiser among the predatory class.

The regulations and restraints in western Europe will also largely undone, it is just more difficult by legal structure and inclination of the societies but they are clawing it back as we speak.

illachick

(28 posts)
62. Who let the Marxist in?!
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 03:54 PM
Mar 2014

LOL jk. Talking about dismantling capitalism?? Eeeh that's a little too rich for my blood, but I wouldn't oppose a socialist system if you're buying...

LiberalLovinLug

(14,174 posts)
63. a mixed economy is probably the best we can do now
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:01 PM
Mar 2014

Such as they have in Sweden.

You allow entrepreneurship to create new business. You in fact encourage it.

But you also have strong regulations and have a policy that requires successful and large businesses to reinvest in the community via taxes or investments in further job creation. The larger you get, the more you reinvest. They shouldn't be allowed to sit on their profits if there is a government party they don't like in office.

You separate and take away from the private sector, at least any controlling interest, in necessities like healthcare, education, transportation infrastructure, police, armed forces, food safety, immigration, and financial sector oversight. These should be all set up as non profits, with public oversight, so the tax payer gets the maximum return. That still leaves plenty of areas for business ventures.

Oakenshield

(614 posts)
74. Capitalism is fundementally flawed.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:40 PM
Mar 2014

What drives it is a corrosive energy, pure and simple. This obsession with money, with profit, has eclipsed the only thing that matters. The ability to live a prosperous life.

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
76. It was dirty from the start.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:54 PM
Mar 2014
- Because it was simply a kinder, gentler form of slavery. Instead of chains, they use debt......

K&R

ReRe

(10,597 posts)
86. There you go, DeSwiss!
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:20 PM
Mar 2014

Everybody, right now, go look up Buckminster Fuller's Critical Path. A fast read. Easy to understand and comprehend.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
83. But if we tried to set up an alternative system,
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:02 PM
Mar 2014

the US would invade or stage a coup, and set up a RW government controlled by the 1%.

ReRe

(10,597 posts)
89. K&R
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:32 PM
Mar 2014

Thanks for the article, xchrom. It DID open a can of worms and spark discussion. Capitalism already is a dirty word in MY mind. It's synonymous with theft, avarice & greed, etc. By hook or by crook, to transfer our money from our bank accounts to theirs, er, like magic. Voila'! Now you see it, now you don't! The oldest shell game in the history of man. See my reply #71 in this thread. That's what I think needs to be done to balance the books of Capitalism.

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)
99. This reads like a right-wing caricature of left-wing idiocy, I'm afraid.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 08:06 PM
Mar 2014

Capitalism has provided higher living standards, *at every centile, including the lowers ones*, than any other economic system.

N_E_1 for Tennis

(9,744 posts)
106. We need to have a completely new system...
Fri Mar 7, 2014, 02:10 PM
Mar 2014

Forget the terms, capitalist, socialist, ect...
Forget the systems that got us to today.
We need to figure out something new.

Put aside the old ways and think of a systems change.
There are benefits in both the older systems. That needs to be accepted.
There are failures in both systems. We need to find a new path.

I'm not by any way a knowledgeable person in the way of politics and econmonics.
Stupid to say the least. But even I can see that all the older ways, systems, whatever you want to call them, are not working.

We here at DU have some very smart people, creative thinkers, let's put aside our differences and try to " think tank" a new, workable system.

I have faith in you guys, come on we can do this.

Initech

(100,081 posts)
109. No let's make deregulation a dirty word.
Fri Mar 7, 2014, 09:23 PM
Mar 2014

These billionaires and greedy scumbag CEOs are able to get away with what they get away with because of deregulation. It's what gives us a one-sided media, the Heritage Foundation, Fox News, and so on and so forth. I'm not normally for censorship, but I really badly want to see Ayn Rand books burn in a giant bonfire.

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