Democratic Underground thread from 2005-tell me this place hasn't changed.

[go west young man]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4115919

Notice how polite and thought out this thread from 2005 is and compare it to DU today. DU members then, debated all sides of this issue eloquently and thoughtfully without any aggression towards each other. What a great site it was. I would like to see a return to this level of discourse. We certainly need it.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

1. Let's start by agreeing Putin is a dangerous and evil man

Who is a force of oppression in the world.

[go west young man]

2. The point of the post..

is you don't have to agree all the time and you can still be civil. You'll notice the responses in the thread are based upon sourced information and not simplistic emotion. They don't attempt to demean each others arguments through equating past arguments, such as you attempt to do with your post. They debate using sourced data and respect each others points of view. What matters is that they separate personal emotion from their arguments and have a good civilized debate. It truly is very different than the DU of today. Essentially you have made my point for me, so thank you for that.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

3. Agreed, sir.

Top of the mornin to you

[El_Johns]

23. That is an example of the problem. "Let's talk, but first agree to my frame."

[Cha]

33. ...

[NuclearDem]

35. /thread

[SMC22307]

45. That was rude.

And a perfect example of what the OP was saying.

[NuclearDem]

48. The OP posted another thread where he essentially called the LGBT community MIC puppets

For their very rightful anger and hatred of Russian homophobia. Then he just kept going on, even posting some video with a transphobic title.

Sometimes civility is overrated. Like when you're confronted with someone defending homophobes and calling your community puppets.

[SMC22307]

53. It was still rude.

I get the impression some DUers don't really care about Russian homophobia, they're just using it to further their anti-Snowden/Greenwald and Obama v. Putin campaigns. Many others, however, are genuine in their anger. Perhaps gowest was targeting the former group, not the actual LBGT community? I'd have to see the thread and video before commenting further, however.

[Bluenorthwest]

109. Aggressively anti gay posts.

The OP deserves the lack of respect he has earned.

[SMC22307]

118. I'm unaware of any history.

Guess I'll keep my eyes peeled.

[hrmjustin]

117. Now that is rude!

[Pretzel_Warrior]

99. Lol. Apparently you don't know 'gowestyoungman's history.

That's ok. I was still civil as I posted about Putin. As an aside, what are your thoughts on Vlad?

[go west young man]

164. Here's some of my old history.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8768651 Been around here a while. Long before you guys started hiding my posts.

[hrmjustin]

143. I agree with PW.

[hrmjustin]

162. Well the op posted this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024490324

[go west young man]

165. Just one of many points I've posted.

[hrmjustin]

166. And I disagreed.

[hrmjustin]

173. I wish you the best!

[sabrina 1]

186. Thanks for the perfect example of how DU, once a place where people

actually discussed issues, has changed. Most of DU's real Progressives have moved on to more effective forums. They were the ones who inspired people like me to sign up here. If came across DU today, I would pass considering all the support for Bush policies which back then were rightfully opposed.

Some of us are still here, but sooner or later we progressives will probably stop wasting time trying to argue against Bush policies on a forum where there once was a united opposition to such policies. And spend that time working to overturn those policies together with the many new Progressive organizations which have remained consistent wrt to policies.

I wonder what will happen to the Dem party and forums, when progressives finally have had enough? I am thrilled though to see the many Progressive Orgs out there who have been very effective in actually forcing Dems to, eg, 'take SS off the table' but not fooled that this is just temporary during an election year.

[hlthe2b]

5. I agree that the loss of moderators has made DU a far more raucous (to be nice) and at times ugly

(to be truthful) place.

[MADem]

104. In the old days, all the ugliness was hidden.

Now, we know people for what they really are, without the filter of the mods, hiding any dirt or nastiness away. And now, too, we have to do our OWN hiding--we, in effect, are our own moderators. That's what the HIDE THREAD, IGNORE etc. buttons are for. Instead of having someone else tell us what we should see, we have to be adults and make those decisions ourselves. I like the HIDE THREAD option, myself--when a dedicated crowd of people start beating what I consider a "bullshit" subject to death, I start hitting those X buttons, and I'm happier for it.

You're always going to have trolls--you're always going to have internet weirdos who don't have lives and get their jollies out of fucking with people just because they can only 'feel' when they are being mean and childish. And you're always going to have clever children who like to screw with people and giggle about it.

I like DU3. I've really gotten to appreciate the wisdom of many people here, and I've learned, through "unhidden meanness," which people to avoid.

[hlthe2b]

114. Hide function isn't something I use... as I just pass by those threads...

my own "conscious hide"... And, I have finally discovered enough self-restraint to generally move past threads or comments that would so draw me in, so anger me, that I could become "obsessive" and post something I'd later regret. But I think it is a good thing that admins implemented "ignore".

However, there is a threshold above which overt trolling makes DU very unpleasant and strong moderation (usually with paid moderators) tends to keep that at bay. I think we've managed to stay well below that, but if other major "comment" forums on other popular and combative websites are any indication, then when things heat up for primaries and Presidential election, we may well cross it.

DU goes in cycles. Having been here since its initiation, I find that reassuring.

[MADem]

168. I think once the primaries hit, the admins will be a bit more aggressive on their own.

They're not shy, and they seem to have a good handle on managing the site, big picture. The hosts will key off them, and MIRT will step up to the plate as well, I suspect.

I've been here from the beginning as well. I was a reader at the start, and rarely posted, but I signed up a day or two after the site went live...I was one pissed off pup at the election theft. I had to re-register when I forgot my password and lost access to the email I used to sign up! The place has changed a lot down the years, but IMO I think it's gotten better with time.

[Cleita]

6. So many names no longer post here. Well, one poster died and the

another is recovering from a transplant, but yeah there were good debates even when we disagreed with one another.

[go west young man]

18. True... it's humbling...

so many times I've logged on to sadly learn that a fellow DU'er who I really enjoyed reading has passed away. It brings you down to earth. RIP to all of them, who taught us all so much.

[hfojvt]

57. what about post #58? et. al.

I see some who are still around - Gormy Cuss, Lydia Leftcoast, JanMichael (sort of).

Kinda not sorry to lose the people arguing FOR the flat tax.

But what the heck, if they argue civilly...

Who died, though? Witchie?

[Cleita]

68. PurityOfEssence died, WC Green is recovering from a transplant. I haven't seen Lydia Leftcoast or

Jan Michael for eons.

[hfojvt]

71. see post #36

in this very thread

Now I will search for Lydia and Gormy.

[Cleita]

73. Good glad to see Jan Michael is still around but he doesn't post much does he?

He used to make some really good, intelligent posts when I first landed on DU in 2003.

[hfojvt]

74. and heeeere's

Lydia http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4549087

Yeah, JanMichael has been pretty quiet for a while, even has fewer posts than I do.

and Gormy http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4548213

wow, that last post feature on the profile is really handy for finding lost loves.

[villager]

90. Just remarked on my late pal Purity of Essence in that thread...

I still miss him when I see his name pop up around here (he was the one that first told me about this place, eons ago...)

He left behind his wife, and three kids, when he passed last summer... Dammit all...

[Cleita]

92. I always enjoyed his posts when he was active.

RIP PofE.

[villager]

93. Indeed. Glad to see *you're* still posting here, Cleita!

[Cleita]

94. Not for long. I'm just doing some troll clean-up on aisle 69.

[villager]

96. Well, dang. We will miss another one driven off by the general rampant hostility here...

Alas....

[temporary311]

7. Maybe my memory is off

but wasn't the Lounge the cesspool back then, before Meta took that honor? I seem to recall a few large ban waves over how things were going down in there.

[Cleita]

8. Yeah, but it seemed to be confined to those forums back then.

GD was pretty civil.

[temporary311]

11. Agreed.

I think the biggest problem is that closing Meta didn't make the crap go away. I mean, Meta didn't happen in a vacuum, ya know? It was made that way by a relatively small group of posters. Closing that forum should've been accompanied by a ban wave similar to what was done to stop the old clique wars in the Lounge.

[winter is coming]

14. I was mostly lurking when Meta existed, but the thing I liked about it

was that the crap was concentrated in Meta. There was some incidental sniping in GD, but most of the bar fights stayed in Meta. And really, if there had been a ban wave, perhaps there would have been no need to close Meta.

[Curmudgeoness]

27. +100 nt

[hfojvt]

59. as a lounge lizard of the time

I would say that your memory IS off.

Yes there was some nastiness in the lounge, (and some personal relationships that flamed out, sadly) but there was also a lot of conviviality.

Also common at the time was for people to post threads in the lounge that said "omigod GD has flipped out" and link to some flamewar in GD that all of us lizards would laugh about. And comment on, like "look at them tearing each other's heads off", or "they're nuts over there" or "you really need asbestos underwear to post in GD".

For a time there, after Skinner put the kibosh on sex threads, the lounge was actually kinda "GD lite". We had serious discussions without the flames of GD.

It tasted great, and it was less filling.

[MADem]

105. I found the old lounge a bit daunting.

I didn't feel as though I was "in on the joke." It was a bit cliquish. I always felt like the new kid at the end of the lunch table! The new lounge seems more welcoming, IMO...maybe the old school flavor is what some folks miss...?

That said, I am not complaining--I found plenty to like about other forums and I spent my time in those.

[fizzgig]

141. it was a minefield for a while

lots of in jokes and you never knew what you were going to step in by replying to what appeared to be an innocuous thread.

[fizzgig]

140. we had a lot of fun in the lounge

remember when it invaded that douchebag thread in gd? i still giggle about it.

but i got turned off of it for a bit when all that hateful shit went down.

[hfojvt]

151. that was sort of after my time

even then I was mostly hanging out in GD or GDP and the author of that thread was a friend of mine anyway.

I remember when ForrestGump got hit by the spam filter and most people thought he was tombstoned. I remember picture threads and Southlandshari and the night shift and morning crew and copycats and matchgame 76...

[madinmaryland]

9. Bull. You may have found one thread that was "civil" but much of the time it

was a shitstorm, going back to the primary races in 2004. At that time, we had a common enemy, and it made things seem a lot more organized, as we were all committed to getting rid of the POTUS at that time.

It was a great site, and still is. Thanks, Skinner!!

[pintobean]

10. Totally agree.

Most of the worst shit-storms were removed in bulk by the mods. It certainly made things look a lot more civil than they were.

[go west young man]

12. Indirectly, your making my overall point...

the site operated better back then. This was most likely partially due to moderators, a lack of a jury system (as we have today), and civil DU'ers who didn't hit and run with one liners. As it is today, the approach to discourse is not too dissimilar to threads on Facebook or Huffington Post.

[ctsnowman]

149. I quit HP

because the mods let a post stand that was hoping for a second Newtown because of the laws we passed here (and many other posts like it). There are days when it gets pretty ugly here and I hope it doesn't descend to the level of HP.

[Hippo_Tron]

181. I did a term as a mod and I wouldn't even categorize it that way

When I was there the mods spent most of their time day to day deleting replies with ad hominem attacks. Basically on DU3 you have an easier time getting away with calling someone a poopy-head than you did on DU2. Mods also locked a lot of copycat or spinoff threads. But as far as locking shit-storms, it had to be a completely unmanageable shit-storm to get locked.

[Adsos Letter]

184. Or the primaries in 2008.

Talk about shitstorm...and the wave of banning that accompanied it.

[jaysunb]

13. What a trip down memory lane....

I've wanted to post many times lately about the loss of decorum and respect here at DU, but I can never distill all the things I think have gone wrong.
Back in the days of the thread you posted, there was less that 25,000 members ( I think) most of whom were fairly thoughtful people that could back up their arguments w/ facts or were open to hear all sides before launching into a tirade. Local DU meetups were the norm and activism was the glue that held us together.
Disrupter's were easily spotted and tombstones passed out appropriately.

But w/ more that 150k + folks here now (with a large number of those being paid trolls) it's nearly completely out of control. While I have been an ardent fan and supporter of DU since the beginning, I sympathize with Skinner, Elad and EarlG when I see the dilemma they find themselves with. At first it was a financial battle to keep the site going, but with new members and their donations, the problem has become the people themselves.

I keep saying (to myself) I'm going to leave, but it's such a habit that it's gotten to be like the proverbial wreck that you can't take your eyes off.

[Whisp]

19. I think that when a casual visitor comes here and sees 'Impeach Obama' ads

they might think they belong here. There are some atrocious ads here and I wouldn't discount that that may be a part of the big picture problem. I know money is money, and income is income but my gawd shouldn't there be some kind of line?

[go west young man]

24. Your on the money with that one.

I can't understand it for the life of me. What sense does it make to have opposition ads on our front page? I also wonder why DU'ers linking to Faux "news" stories in LBN is tolerated. It doesn't serve our cause in any way to legitimize those we are working against.

[pablo_marmol]

40. Here here!

What the HELL is up with that?

I've been discouraged seeing Obama-bashing books at Costco, but they don't purport to be a left-leaning entity.

[progressoid]

15. That was also when W was still in office.

When we had a common enemy, it was easier to overlook our differences.

That said, there were also many flame wars and flame outs. A lot of DUers were TSed in those days for bad behavior and others left voluntarily because of the conflicts.

Politics is messy. And sometimes, so are political websites.

[go west young man]

21. True....

we are more divided these days. The problem being what we stand for in the Democratic Party. Octafish's Bill Moyers post comes to mind as something that should be uniting us all as far as common adversaries go. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024546724 It's definitely one of the most important posts around here in a while.
DU posts that get the most attention these days are related to personal issues and not politics from what I see. This can be verified by checking view counts and replies on forum threads. The numbers are much larger for personal hot button issues such as gender, race, and sexual orientation. National and Geopolitics are taking a huge backseat.

A strange analogy would be that DU is becoming like MTV. Lots of emotional reality programming that requires very little thought and not much music.

[Andy823]

65. I agree with you

Some posters seem to like to "flame bait" and they know what to post in order to get things going. The sad part is that while some point out that the post is simply flame bait, to many others seem to jump on the bandwagon and side with the poster doing the flame baiting.

Like you said, a lot of it seems to be personal issues with no real political discussion just a lot of arguing back and forth. Sometimes the one posting the OP, flam bait, never bothers to reply, they just post, run and start another post with the same goal, which seems to me is trying to divide those who post here.

[DrDan]

16. changes were pretty significant around the 2008 election

it is somewhat easy to spot those that joined just prior to that election

[QC]

126. You've noticed that, too, eh?

That primary season is when the culture of DU changed to what it is now, no doubt.

[Whisp]

17. META was the genie that can never go back into the bottle

and how it was shut down suddenly and without warning.

People still had angst that was developed there and took it to GD and other places after the shutdown. Bile was built up and it had to be spilled somewhere. I think a warning of a shut down would have been a far better idea - hey, kids, place nice or this tent is going down in 2 weeks if you don't smarten up.

META was the biggest mistake and we can't go home again ever to before META - the only way, I think, to reduce the bad effects on present day DU is to bring back a better version of META. How to make it better, I don't know.

[freshwest]

44. Reading Meta changed me and not for the better. I found a level of vitriol and dishonesty that made

Last edited Sat Feb 22, 2014, 10:21 PM - Edit history (1)

me rethink a lot of things about who I was talking to.

Seeing how unnecessarily cruel and personal some of the attacks became, I realized there were people on DU that I did not want to hear from again, as I did not trust their type IRL.

The last time I posted somewhere and saw people that I truly didn't want to talk to, was on a mixed board of left and right posters.

I don't know if that is the case here. I've seen hideous forms of disruptions at other sites with shock content designed to run off women and liberals. It worked, and most of the posters, even the rare decent conservatives who were respectfully arguing their view to give insight, also left.

The conversations degraded to spouting whatever form of propaganda that was ingested that day and regurgitated on everyone. No longer talking, just abuse if one didn't agree.

I see that here at DU at times. When I do, whether it's sent my way or someone else's way, that goes on Ignore. Life is too short to dig through the garbage dump.

At other times, Meta was enlightening by telling the stories of minorities and how the mainstream did not listen to their views. Some have said coming to DU is like that car wreck on the freeway you can't pass without taking a look at it.

You never know what is it going to be here. I have seen some whose pattern is to hit and run to disrupt threads or make mealy mouthed and unproductive comments. They never return to discuss anything in good faith.

They go on Ignore. I still find good people to discuss things with most of the time.

I agree Meta had to go. Just the effect it had on me would have been worse on a new member. Also some good newbies were run off by the hell they caught in Meta, too.

[Iris]

76. What was META? I don't remember it at all. n/t

[laundry_queen]

100. The problem with META

is it was the type of forum that needed a heavy hand, and because of the jury system, there wasn't one. I think Meta would work if it was the sole forum with mods and very strict rules about posting. I agree that the way it just disappeared didn't do the site any favors. Plus, there should've been...as someone suggested...a 'house cleaning' before shutting down the forum. Instead, the least agreeable posters just migrated to GD.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

20. If it's changed a bit, it's because since the advent of the rightwing-fundy popularity in the U.S...

the impoverishment of people has not ceased.

The right wingnut fundies are still there, making it virtually impossible to rescue this country.

Libs have reached the end of their rope and will take no more BS, and right wing infiltrators in DU keep provoking by making the same, old, tired right wing ideological BS suggestions that are already hurting this country.

For ex., by now we all know what a flat tax would destroy the buying power of the middle class and working poor, by now we all know what the current tax rate is doing to benefit the rich, and what it's doing to the middle class and working poor, by now we all know that we need to bring tax rates to how they were before the right wing and fundy ideologies became a mantra in this country.

[randome]

22. People are under more pressure today, both financial and social.

It helps breed incivility and I can't blame anyone for that.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[PCIntern]

25. Is anyone who posted on that thread still active here?

Enquiring minds want to KNOW!

[mike_c]

28. I believe WCGreen was still posting just prior to his transplant surgery....

Msongs is still here, too. I think that's it, though. Lots of familiar folks in that thread.

[CTyankee]

43. not on that thread but I was here! I joined up in October, 2004, expecting President Kerry.

When January of 2005 happened and W was again sworn in, I was in a deep depression. Only DU and Stephanie Miller pulled me out each week day. Thank goddess! I was devastated. If it hadn't had been for them, I would have been sunk...

[PCIntern]

77. I was around at that time as well...

it is just that there are so many names missing and you don't realize who is gone until you read an archived thread...

[hfojvt]

62. unfortunately, yes

#53, #90, #58, #82, #93, #94, and #64

otherwise, as I mentioned upthread, I only see JanMichael, who rarely posts now, but IS still around, Lydia Leftcoast is still here, I think, and Gormy Cuss.

But not a lot.

And I really liked Sweetheart.

She lived up to her name, IMO.

[mike_c]

26. a number of well remembered DUers in that thread....

I've been active on DU since early 2002, and lurked almost from the beginning. I do agree that the tone of discourse has changed over the years, and that there is a lot more personal nastiness now. When I first began posting here I learned a great deal about how to have anonymous conversations, civilly. The mods more-or-less made sure of it. The serially uncivil still seem to eventually do themselves in, most of the time, but they also seem to linger for longer.

[go west young man]

29. How about this one for a flashback....

Truth is All's 2004 exit polling threads. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x56674
We were all coalescing around that one. Some great underground data miners were on the site back then. This was around the time the Dungeon came into existence and we lost some of them. Someone should do a life history of DU featuring the stand out moments.

[mike_c]

32. yup, I remember those threads....

Probability theory reared it's head on DU for a while.

[go west young man]

31. I'm just waxing nostalgic.

[KoKo]

39. I think what you're remembering was when we had a "Common Foe" to rail against...

The change we see is that "our enemy is within us."

It's difficult to deal with that revelation...and it tears apart what we had in common...in those past years.

There are differing theories as to Why and What that is that has torn apart the commonality....and, I'm not going there!

But...many of us see what you see...it's just that ...well...what I said above.

[Blue_Tires]

170. +1

Part of it is I've always thought DU dipped below the "replacement level" of really good posters a few years back...We lost even more with the move to DU3...

[flying rabbit]

30. I think we need to bring Meta back

If the kids want to play in the cesspool, let them.

[Iris]

107. what was meta?

I don't remember it.

[flying rabbit]

110. It was a forum created when DU3 came about designated for the discussion of all things related to

the site itself. What it became was a place people went with an axe to grind: "a jury didn't hide this post so I am going to vent my outrage and hold my breath until I turn blue. If you don't agree with me you are a republican." It got pretty nasty so the admins put the kibosh on it.

[Iris]

113. oh, yes.I do remember that now. n/t

[madrchsod]

34. i think most of those people no longer post/comment here.

[intheflow]

69. Hard to know.

There have been a few name amnesties since then. There's also been a huge influx of new people since Obama was elected so I think some of it is that the older members' voices are drowned out, and also a kind of fatigue has set in with many of us older members. We were wrestling with a lot of these issues in a more intimate setting early on, now DU seems like a grade school playground on some days, and/or troll heaven on others. I used to post a lot, now I hardly post at all because of the newbie discussion dynamic which eschews civility and reason in favor of insults and strawmen.

[JanMichael]

36. wow i sounded so damned smart and nice

I also noticed that was one year prior to becoming a vegetarian. I said that i was trending that direction and was right.

Oh well so much for sounding and being intelligent. Now it is just a big custerfuck. I do not care enough anymore to create long and documented arguments.

[hfojvt]

72. I coulda sworn you were still around

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4549126

and you linked to the state tax report well before I did, many moons later.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. Neither do I

[geckosfeet]

37. Oh. It has changed.

Rancor, hyperbole and raw intolerance come all too easily these days.

Saw something posted on FB today. I immediately thought of DU.

Imagine you are explaining the internet to someone from the early 20th century. The entire accumulated knowledge of mankind at our fingertips. And we use it to look at cat pictures and argue with people we don't know.

And life goes on. Opportunity slips through our grasp.

[Drunken Irishman]

38. I remember the Primary Wars of 2004 - which was a lot worse than the Primary Wars II in 2008.

It was not civil.

[winter is coming]

41. You missed an opportunity.

It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if you'd re-posted the text of KitchenWitch's OP.

[blkmusclmachine]

42. Nah. I'm hard left, and the DEMS keep goin' to the right. Suck it, "bi-partisanship."

[KittyWampus]

46. There was NEVER a golden age on DU. Back then the greens trying to rehabilitate Nader

and the ideologues trashing Gore for not fighting hard enough in the recount were constantly stirring up shit.

What I see happen is people come here, find Lefties and are happy at first and able to tolerate differing viewpoints.

But over time, many DU'ers come here for their ideology fix and start getting more and more annoyed at anyone who doesn't agree 100%.

[hfojvt]

66. a flashback thread that I keep around

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=196554

What we seem to do, is to split into warring camps.

Obamabots vs. firebaggers
HOF vs. MRAs (supposed)

to pick two of the biggies, also maybe

gun nuts vs. gun grabbers (supposed)


All you need is about fifteen dedicated members of each gang to keep slinging crap at each other in thread after thread, and a good portion of the rest of us will kinda take sides back and forth, and then get tired of the daily battles.

[woo me with science]

47. Many, many good liberal posters departed

Last edited Sat Feb 22, 2014, 10:13 PM - Edit history (2)

in response to the influx of the corporate propaganda contingent.

As the number of corporate personas here unnaturally increased, and as their tactics became increasingly clear, many good liberals decided that they'd had enough.

Which, of course, was most likely the goal.

[jaysunb]

61. + 1 You are dead on ! n/t

[sibelian]

67. Yes.

I used to post here under a different name (which I will not reveal), whose password I scrambled in a fit of disgust as the tone of the place began to change. I rejoined during the first great debates around healthcare when it really started kicking off.

I've posted less this year as I'm increasingly of the opinion that the site's being used to manipulate liberals rather than discuss politics.

[woo me with science]

75. The phenomenon of "sleeper cell" accounts,

Last edited Sun Feb 23, 2014, 12:41 AM - Edit history (1)

accounts created around the time of the site's inception, but which remained dormant for many years before being (re)activated to dispense pro-corporate propaganda and attack liberals, lends credence to your opinion..

[laundry_queen]

101. I have this really annoying problem

where I remember certain names and the dates they've joined...more than a few times I've seen a poster with, say 1,200 posts and 1,185 of them are in the last 90 days...and they joined in 2004. And suddenly they are posting in the most active threads and they are extremely argumentative. In 6 months, they have 8,000 posts and are very well known (usually for being over the top rude). Extremely suspect, for sure.

[woo me with science]

167. +1

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. I understand perfectly well

[Rex]

70. YEP.

nt.

[Mojorabbit]

89. +100 nt

[nobodyspecial]

139. Or, could it possibly be that life changed and people changed

and many no longer had time to spend reading and posting to one website. How long did you expect people could sustain their outrage and the time required to keep up with this place. People move on. And if any of the posters from the good old days were truly your friends, they are still in your life. I have a core group that I am still in contact with and most left this site years ago. It has nothing to do with "corporatists" running them off the site.

[Enthusiast]

142. +1 a whole bunch!

I think it remains the goal.

[rrneck]

49. Lots of posts got removed

instead of bookmarked in private files of combatants.

When I first got here it was understood (and I think it was in the TOS) that we were expected to grow a thick skin. The first DUer that responded to my first post here was Iverglas. I don't see the kind of rancor now that I saw when I first joined.

It's a lot harder to get banned now than then. There used to be grave dancing threads all the time, now you hardly see them.

The creation of protected groups helps keeps combatants in neutral corners most of the time. They only emerge when their pet issues become big enough to find their way into the playground, then the sparks fly. Since the software deals with the bulk of low intensity conflict, the admins can concentrate on the main forums and of course they see every alert. Now they can adjust how forums like GD get hosted instead of managing conflict across the entire board. And of course MIRT handles the vast majority of trolls.

I think DU has been designed to be more consumer friendly, which brings with it certain problems, but all in all it's working really well and it's fascinating to watch.

[lumberjack_jeff]

54. Agree. n/t

[Dr. Strange]

50. That was a post by KitchenWitch.

She was banned back at DU2.

Yes, this place has changed.

[bvar22]

51. There is this too:

There were a LOT more people here,
and they were a LOT more Liberal.

When was the last poll at DU that had over a thousand replies?

[go west young man]

120. I remember that poll...

I voted Kucinich...and haven't seen Bob the drummer in a while either.

[hrmjustin]

52. Maybe people should consider what they post here.

[go west young man]

122. Your making my point for me.

[hrmjustin]

123. Well you take it to heart next time you post.

[go west young man]

152. The vitriol is what I'm attempting to point out.

We disagreed on a previous argument. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing. Taking that disagreement personally is the point of my OP. I will continue to post and to be civil. I'm into geopolitics. Your obviously more into gender issues than I am. I have pointed out to you on numerous occasions that I am into equal rights for all citizens. We disagree on how that is more readily achieved in regards to Russia. You painted me as a homophobe. (Not much I can do about that except repeat myself)I still stand by that previous post. It's just one opinion of many that I have. i'm sorry you didn't like it. I'm sure we probably agree on more issues than you realize. Peace, once again.

[hrmjustin]

153. I never called you or painted you as a homophobe. I painted and said you were wrong.

I painted Putin and the Russian laws he put in as evil. You were challenged on what you posted and rightly so.

[go west young man]

155. This is a touch off point... but I wanted to point out something to DU'ers

using you and me personally. I am a long term DU'er who has posted 3,550 times since November 2004. I usually only post things that I consider surreal thought provoking subject matter in regards to geopolitics and the Great Game. I have served on 4 juries since that time and had 4 posts hidden (all 4 took place 2 weeks ago in the debate you and I disagreed upon). You, on the other hand, have been on DU since February 2012, you have posted 29,215 times, and served on 501 juries. Your stats vs. mine kinda make the point of my OP. DU has changed and not necessarily for the better. I'm pretty sure most of those 29,000 posts are not sourced well laid out information. Who would have time for sourcing info when they are posting at that rate? My point is a simple one...DU has changed. It's emotional but not very factual anymore.

[hrmjustin]

156. Are you saying du went downhill since I joined?

Btw. How many hides do you have from 2004? I had only one.

Many of my posts were in MIRt from last summer to last month.

I am also a host of several rooms as you can see in my profile.

Most of my ops are in the NY room with some in the religion and interfaith rooms as well.

My OPs always comply with the rules of this site.

If you don't like me you can always put me on ignore but I will not apologize for telling you you were wrong!

Point out anything you like. See what response you get.

Oh I remember you telling me you were banned before. I was never banned.

[BainsBane]

160. "Well sourced information"

Where exactly does one for "factual" and "well sourced" information that enables them to tell LGBT members how they are allowed to fight for civil rights? Give me a break. You may fool yourself with this smokescreen of objectivity, but you don't fool me.

It's not your business to comment on what hrmjustin posts. One thing he does is volunteer on MIRT and as host of a number of forums and groups, thereby contributing to the running of DU. He is also about the most civil poster that exists on this site, and I have never seen him post anything like your offensive thread scolding LGBT Americans about Russia. I am standing up here to say I see through this ruse of yours.

[go west young man]

163. Writes the highly emotional poster who has 23,000 posts

since September 2012. I can't keep going around with you guys on that other thread if you won't address the PEW poll that it was all related to. I asked then if you all were willing to explain the numbers on Russian use of alcohol, pre marital sex, gambling and was met with only insults. Yet you continued to use the same PEW poll that the CIA fact book simply discredited with it's numbers. Instead the only responses were 1) I'm a Putin lover, 2) I'm a homophobe, 3) I don't belong at DU. It was all very loud and passionate but did very little to negate my argument as the PEW poll was the basis for the LGBT's anger towards the Russian people. Pretzel Warrior put it out there yet not a soul arguing against my argument wanted to address those discrepancies. The poll had Russians against homosexuality at 72%. The poll had Russians against drinking at 44%. The drinking, gambling and pre marital sex numbers make no sense in a country that is largely non religious ( as communist Russia was) and thereby lend credence to the possibility that the other numbers in the poll are off and also suspect. I think the PEW poll is simply, and ironically, considering we're talking about Russia, propaganda.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/rs.html

[BainsBane]

159. When you tell someone they shouldn't fight for their civil rights

It makes sense to me they would take it personally. It doesn't get much more personal than that.

What makes you think it is your right to tell gay people how they should go about fighting for their rights? This reminds me a lot of the men on DU who try to tell feminists what they should care about, or when white folks tell African American members what kind of racism matters. It isn't your position to decide that. The fight isn't yours. If you don't want to be an ally, stay out of it. If you involve yourself in telling gay people what and how they can fight for civil rights, naturally people will view you as hostile to their cause.

Pretending these are just abstract philosophical questions when they have to do with people's basic rights is disingenuous.

[go west young man]

169. My argument was regarding method employed for advocating

for civil rights in Russia. That was missed by many in that thread. I felt, and still do, that the lack of understanding of Russian culture at DU was actually doing more harm to equal rights than good at the time, as the schadenfreude was making the US look poorly.

[Skip Intro]

55. And that was after the Dean/Kerry wars. We surely have lost something here.

DU clearly lacks the mutual respect that was found here in the early years. Open discussion was encouraged and enjoyed, differing views met with fair-mindedness, a certain level of mutual respect was in effect. Now an open and honest discussion of important and timely topics is the extreme rarity rather than the rule it used to be. Some DUers' only reason for being here seems to be to attack those who disagree with them or fail to sing along with their hymns. That is how I see much of the problem - there are a few who want to dictate to others what they must think, and say, and there is a large portion of those being attacked who toss it right back. The jury system might play a small part as well. What a mod once would have hidden for mean-spiritedness and personal attack a jury is a role of the dice.

The really sad part is, we may never return to that era of civility here. But I hope we do.

[cui bono]

103. It starts at home. You can't expect civility if you don't offer it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4548841

[Make7]

56. "Be the change that you wish to see in the world." - Mahatma Gandhi

"I would like to see a return to this level of discourse. We certainly need it." - go west young man

It is typically far easier to control one's own behavior than others'.

[Gore1FL]

58. That is one example from then

I bet for everyone one like that there is approximately 1 example of a flame fest. Things have changed a lot since 2001, but flame fests happened, even then.

[Rex]

60. I see what you did there.

I also see the edit function is now in stealth mode with no transparency.

[PowerToThePeople]

63. I dislike the disconnect between DU versions

DU3 has no history of DU2 or DU1. It only lives in our memories. Sure you can try to search for something, but you have to look hard for it.

Even DU3 years back is tough to find stuff.

I know (well am pretty sure) KitchenWitch was the first person to send me a private email on DU. I was upset and going to take a break from reading the forums. They said not to let it get under my skin. It was very nice and made me feel better.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Part of the reason is that a few of those posters

are NO LONGER HERE. They left, or were run off. You ask why? I know the answer, and it is partly why I no longer post anything really deep here.

[Aerows]

80. "Kitchen Witch"

Seriously, my friend, you wonder why that person isn't here anymore?

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. It has zero to do with the handle.

Trust me, or not. I still talk to many of those posters on the twitter, rarely, and Facebook.

[Aerows]

84. I still find that dubious

nevertheless, I'm very glad you are still here, nadin. You bring a lot to DU and many of us appreciate it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. That I talk to them?

Odd, people use their actual names on FB. I know, weird.

And as to me, I find myself posting less and less and is the reason many of those posters left. Some were banned during the great purges of DU. And another one us coming, with elections they always do.

I laugh though, since Alexa ratings continue to crumble. The glory days will not come back. It's all to do with what has happened to this place.

[Codeine]

127. I would take issue with the notion that you ever posted "anything really deep here."

There are really just a handful of valuable and wonderful posters who add original content of any significant depth -- you're not one of them.

Neither am I, to be sure.

[nadinbrzezinski]

132. By the way, one of my lovely cyberstalkers

gave a textbook example of what I mean. I love it when they do that shit.

But this is why this place is no longer as popular as it once was.

And that is fully self inflicted.

[sad-cafe]

175. oh honestly, No one is cyberstalking you

you have created the hostility by claiming to be more of an expert on every single issue or thing ever posted then trying to play victim when someone disagrees with you. Humbleness goes a LONG way 100% of the time.

[hrmjustin]

176. Still following her?

[sad-cafe]

177. hardly.

still following me?

[hrmjustin]

178. No I wposted in this thread as you can see and saw on the latezt page it got to 175 posts.

I got into it with the op and another up thread. I even got someone putting me on ignore.

[sad-cafe]

182. it is probably futile but I was trying to help Ms. press lady

by pointing out things all 99% of other posters say that if she would stop, she would feel better.

that's all!

[hrmjustin]

183. She can't see you and you should not let her bother you.

[Samantha]

78. What happened to RummyisFrosted?

Does anyone know?

Sam

[Aerows]

79. So it would be better

if we all had names like "Kitchen Witch" and agreed with you?

[Le Taz Hot]

86. Now you got it!

Engaging in lock-step makes the world a whole lot easier to deal with don't 'cha know.

[Aerows]

87. I would guess

Though I suspect you are like me and are about as likely to walk in lock-step with anything as we are to flap our arms and fly to the moon.

I guess that could happen, but I wouldn't count on it

[villager]

88. "Snarkiness is not constructive discussion." Gormy Cuss had that right. Perhaps no accident...

...that things have become more corrosive since then?

Also, in the "awww..." dept., saw that Purity of Essence was there, an old college pal who left us -- much much too early -- last year.

We definitely need more thoughtful -- and less snark-reveling -- conversations around here...

[winter is coming]

91. Snark can be funny or clever. It's the pissy snide passive agressive remarks I don't like.

Way too much like middle school cliques.

[villager]

95. Those pissy snide passive-agressive remarks are exactly the ones I mean...

Way too much like middle school, except that my youngest and his friends -- themselves just finished with middle school as of this year -- never seemed as thoughtless or mean-spirited as many of those deliberately pissy/snide posters here do...

[Cleita]

97. I wouldn't doubt that those are middle schoolers or who mentally never left middle

school. Still they are very destructive in what they are doing and should be dealt with.

[Deep13]

102. It has changed because most of those folks are gone...

...and some of them were banned for some pretty trivial reasons.

[mattclearing]

108. Response 113 is solid.

PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #40
113. "Double taxation" is a bullshit concept under current laws
Investing in a business is a gamble, and taxation is a COST of the venture.

Taxation isn't ugly thievery, it may be improperly assessed, but it's NOTHING MORE THAN A COST OF THE ENTERPRISE.

Sick, and deeply ingrained within our national consciousness is the fundamental agreement that NOBODY SHOULD EVER TAX US FOR ANYTHING, especially those of us who have some spare money to invest.

This is a truly sick assumption. The regulation and governmental expenses that are NECESSARY to keep our speculative economy free from disruption COST MONEY. Those monies should come from those who gain from this wealth welfare: those who invest.

There is no such thing as double taxation. It's the bellyaching of would-be aristocrats who just can't hack it. Those who complain of this are LOSERS and assholes. I invest and feel that entities in which I invest should pay taxes to defray the services they get from taxpayers. It's not punishment, it's simply paying one's bills.

If there was a TRUE flat tax, I might be persuaded, but it would have to be one with NO LOOPHOLES. I'll give up my mortgage interest write-off. I'll even give up the child-rearing credit.

Let's talk about a "net worth" tax; that'll end the debate.

People who want to make life simple are simpletons. Life is complex, and the needs and abilities of individuals are wildly varied. Trying to make things easy when they aren't is contrary to the heart and soul of civilization. For all the libertarian bellyaching about the wasted time of such complexity, we're far better off with the specialization that society brings us.

Besides all that, vast sweeps of the economy are dependent on the business of our current convoluted tax laws, and although dispensing with many of these laws wouldn't bring too many tears to my eye, I don't think they could be implemented all that well over such chorusing objections, and in interest of us all, it would need to be done gradually to avoid too much shock to the system.

[JVS]

111. Check this one out

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x961628

[Art_from_Ark]

112. Well, you can go to any number of topic forums here

and the discussion there is very civil.

[Romulox]

115. The majority of posters here are anti-Labor "centrists", now. There's not even a good mix. nt

[War Horse]

116. The main difference I've noticed, FWIW...

This is my second account as well, I first joined quite some time ago. Don't remember exactly when. I lost access to the e-mail address the old one was attached to, hence the new account. Didn't post much in the past either, but I did read.

Anyway, it's always been heated, but the biggest difference I notice now is the level of distrust. People accusing each other of having ulterior motives, of misrepresentation, assuming that people are dishonest about where they are coming from (and putting words in each others mouths) etc...

Just my 2 cents.

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. Large part of it

when people told me to my face that I was not a journalist, never mind the press pass issued by the city police department is in my vest... or that I could not have won any awards, or the variation, all these are vanity since you pay to enter, person shut up when it was pointed to him that ALL awards in Journalism require a small fee for administrative reasons, including the famed Pulitzer. That is when I knew we jumped through a very serious light year or two as it were.

Of course the cyberstalking does not help, and when you have some of the who's who follow, like puppies, to my blog where they were IP banned, you know you got serious issues. And it is them, not me who have the issues.

They got their wish though. We have some serious news right now in my local area, it's not on CNN, therefore not news. Never mind it is very real. And I mean on several fronts. I will not post anything deep anymore either. That is what MY BLOG is for. Personal attacks and cyberstalking are simply NOT tolerated there.

I know you were not talking about me, just decided to give a very concrete example.

But that is why I don't bother with this place much. But perhaps threads like this (and the Alexa ratings ) will wake up the owners who still believe they got no issues. Rumor has it that they wanted to sell in 2008. They should have. Because right now DU is not as valuable as it once was. Oh and some of us no longer buy stars either. And all that is self inflicted.

[uppityperson]

121. 1 of the first things I do with OPs calling for civility in discourse is look at OP's profile page,

how many hides they have.

I agree, we need more civility here.

[hrmjustin]

124. Yes I love these moments.

[KauaiK]

125. We on DU need to set the example of civility in discusstion

I blame the loss of civility in political discussions on Newt Gringrich. He is epitome of ego strutting and shouting down of any disagreement with him. Ted Cruz and his ilk are the exponential result of Gringrich's reign.

K&R x 1000

[edited for grammar]

[Exultant Democracy]

128. The top 10 list and Hate Mail Bag held this place together.

Just a few things from the admin that tied us all together ever week or in the case of the mail bag every other month or so.

[woo me with science]

131. Unity on liberal issues held this place together.

It used to be that dispensers of right-wing/corporate talking points were shown the door.

Now that we have a party and a President that aggressively PURSUE a corporate agenda, many, many liberals have departed in disgust at the constant stream of corporate/right-wing propaganda that pollutes DU.

[stopbush]

129. It was easy to be civil back in the day, when DU threads debated mundane issues

like the flat tax.

Today, there are REAL issues to be discussed that stir real emotions - like whether or not Justin Bieber should be deported.

[Orrex]

130. It's easy to cherry-pick the civil discussions

DU2 had its share of bitterness and hostility, too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

133. Nothing close to today though. NOTHING like today.

[Orrex]

134. Maybe not in GD, but there was plenty to be found

The Womens' Rights forum, the Religion forum and the Health forum frequently erupted in fairly intense hostility, to name just three. The Guns! Guns! Guns! forum was rather bitter as well.

Sure, more of it shows up in GD now, but I'm not convinced that there's more of it overall.

[nadinbrzezinski]

135. Well since I post on GD I notice it

But you know what? The owners truly don't care. So the rest of us should not either. I know I smile at how less popular the place is. But that's what they want? Who am I to stop it?

[Orrex]

136. YOU"RE A JERK FOR SAYNG THAT!!!!1!

Well, no, not really.

I was just trying to inject some hostility.

[nadinbrzezinski]

137. Well of course I am

[KauaiK]

145. AND an ignorant ass...

[nadinbrzezinski]

147. Always

especially when it comes to what is popular with the cool kids.

There I go, with micro aggressions and everything.

[ZombieHorde]

138. I think I am treated better now than on DU2

Most people just put me on ignore now, so I'm not personally attacked nearly as often. There were a lot of angry, insulting people on DU2.

[NuclearDem]

144. Well that's only because you tried to eat their braaaaiinnnsssss

[ZombieHorde]

171. In my defense, liberals have the best brains. nt

[snot]

146. I.m.h.o., DU is a shadow of its former self.

F.w.i.w., I can think of several possible factors, but to me, the biggest one is that DU may have been a victim of its own success.

At its height, DU had a lot of members, including a lot of early-adopter and activist types. As a result, it had real impact and influence.

I think this attracted people who wanted either to hijack and manipulate it to their own ends or simply to undermine it. They use tactics such as described at http://pastebin.com/irj4Fyd5 , and a lot of our best DU'er's were driven off.

F.w.i.w., I wish more DU'er's understood the meaning of "ad hominem attack," and that we consistently followed the principle that such attacks on other DU'er's should not be allowed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

148. You conspiracy theorist you...

(and on point)

[snot]

150. Backatcha!

[go west young man]

154. Thanks for that. :)

[Douglas Carpenter]

157. Back then most DUers thought electing a Democratic President would fix everything - Now we have many

who are disappointed and many who are in denial. There were those who believed in spite of all evidence to the contrary that the most prominent Dems whether Howard Dean or Wesley Clark or John Kerry or certainly this rising star who was just elected Senator from Illinois were progressives who would forcefully pursue a progressive agenda. They believed this because they wanted to believe it and simply ignored their ACTUAL positions and records. Some of those people became quite disappointed. Others have created massive walls of denial.

[Warren DeMontague]

158. This place hasn't changed.

[MrMickeysMom]

179. No, it hasn't WDeM...

All anyone needs to do is to check out the Dungeon! Same as it ever was (CS)

[Warren DeMontague]

180. I just find all the "bygone days of civility" posts so unintentionally funny.

Like, yeah, I was here for the 2004 primary season. Bygone civility, right.

[defacto7]

185. It's ironic

A call to civility and past common goals with strong but founded arguments...

Yet when civility, common goals and founded arguments are posed... they die.

When crassness, Adultescence, adolescence, disruptiveness, ad hominem attacks, flamebate, post derailing and gleefully offered hurtful comments are hurled....

the whole site goes wild with uncontrolled excitement and hundreds of recs and replies fly in glorious cacophony. And ignore and trash buttons become the weapon of ultimate choice for an easy kill.

As much as I would personally NOT like it to be that way... it's become an entertainment site. It does have some relevant news aggregation as an addition to the games.

Such is the world these days, such is the Internet.

When two year olds who smear their shit on their crib are the leaders of the posting constituency, this is what you get.