The Russian Army WILL Invade Ukraine

[Loaded Liberal Dem]

I'm a newb here, so mock me at will, but, after the Winter Olympics are over---and it might be days, or it might be a couple of weeks---Yanukovich will "request" that Russian troops be sent in to "restore the rule of law," and Putin, that ever-faithful Friend of Humanity, will happily oblige.

[The Magistrate]

1. Not Going To Happen, Sir

Putin is not an idiot.

[bemildred]

2. +1. nt

[Pretzel_Warrior]

3. exactly. Putin would give up any advantage he has internationally if he did so

It will be on then if he does that. Ukraine hasn't even deployed their own military yet.

There are about 10 levels of scary prior to your wild prediction.

[riderinthestorm]

4. At least not overtly. Plenty of mercenaries for hire in this economy

Putin will never send official Russian troops

[Renew Deal]

31. I agree

You never really know who anyone on the street is

[LittleBlue]

5. Putin wants it to destabilize

It's basically a threat to the rest of Europe: deal with me or watch Ukraine become a Syria. And this time it won't happen far away on Turkey's border, it's right on the EU's border.

The EU is already under pressure due to the sovereign debt/bailout issues, it doesn't need this right now.

[1000words]

6. Yanukovich will be requesting asylum the way things are going

Welcome to DU

[frwrfpos]

7. i doubt it

Ukraine is fully capable of dealing with these violent CIA sponsored terrorists who want Ukraine to become economic puppets of the US and the EU

[Pretzel_Warrior]

8. You need to go listen to/watch first hand accts

Yoyr characterization of events in Kiev is false and beyond repugnant.

[frwrfpos]

10. I have watched several different accounts.

The continued plots to demonize Russia and Putin in regards to Ukraine as absurd. What is offensive is continuing to demonize Ukraine and Russia when its clear that the protesters are extremely violent and they support bowing to EU and IMF demands that they become an economic puppet.

I truly hope Ukraine put these fascist elements down. Try looking into the background of these so called protesters.

[Ex Lurker]

9. Here's your violent terrorists

And here



And here

[frwrfpos]

11. oh look

some images trying to put a friendly face on these violent protesters. They throw gasoline bombs and take people hostage, but as long as someone posts something favorable to EU and US propaganda, as is well

[cprise]

58. Notice the publishing dates on these videos:

Dec. 2

Jan. 25

Jan. 21

And there's more... I have one I should upload showing the police just standing there while being shot at (rifles) and pummelled with a torrent of bricks.

The question about legitimacy is mainly one about their methods and of which side started the cycle of violence.

One thing the coup-supporters here should consider is that they may someday be on the receiving end of far-right violent brinkmanship (a speciality of the mindset) posing as freedom fighters.

[Jenoch]

12. I would be interested in any links you have to support your claims.

[frwrfpos]

13. read the news.

The protesters just took dozens of police hostage. They throw gasoline bombs. They are not peaceful and they want to destabilize Ukraine for US and EU interests.

Do you really need a history of CIA involvement in other countries over the decades?

This is an effort by the US and the EU to assert economic authority and minimize Russia.

[Jenoch]

16. Of course they wish to destabilize the current

Ukraine government. It is a corrupt puppit of Putin. I have people on the ground in Ukraine (cousins), what is your interest and your inside information?

Just because the U.S. used the CIA to destabilize governments in the past does not prove anything.

Again, I ask for links to any analysis of this situation to support your claim.

[jberryhill]

18. Oh good golly...

There are not thousands of CIA agents in Kiev. I'm pretty sure those people are Ukrainians, and they aren't doing it for a paycheck.

[Gravitycollapse]

20. It's legitimate to express concern over external interference.

But that goes both ways. To believe that the US is interfering (which is possible) without even considering that Russia is doing the same (which is almost certain) is to be deluded. And I think we are witnessing exactly that in this poster's "argument."

[jberryhill]

22. IMHO it's not just delusion

I'm certainly one to question my own opinions, which seems to be a rare habit in some parts, and I'm willing to believe that some of what I believe might just be horseshit.

But I can sure pick out the tone of someone who pretty much never does that. Anyone who is certain about unclear circumstances is more likely deluded than someone who, while less certain, has a reasonable basis for assessing the probabilities.

[Are_grits_groceries]

41. They let the police hostages go too.

I don't trust the CIA one damn bit, but your view of Putin as an innocent leader who just wants to help the Ukrainians is pure bullshit.

You are spouting just as much propaganda as anybody else here is or has been.

[cprise]

59. Here's some

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024538459#post58

[Gravitycollapse]

14. EU integration is about much more than economics for many Eastern Europeans.

Not that you seem to care much about reality or it's many complexities.

[frwrfpos]

17. I care about propaganda coming from the EU and the US

there are many links, some right here on this website that show these protests and those behind them have ties to very right wing elements. You are correct its more than just economics. Its also about demonizing Russia and anything that counters US imperialism.

[Gravitycollapse]

19. Sorry, I don't buy that bullshit. Russia is an imperial force just like the US.

And if you don't understand the historical contention between Russia and the Ukraine, you shouldn't be participating in this discussion. We are talking about East vs. West ideology. The country is divided, torn to bits, over the conflict of those who want to mold into the West and abandon historical servitude to Russian imperialism (which, nonetheless, falls victim to Western imperialism) and those who want to maintain the old order.

Both sides are flawed. But this isn't simply a matter of fascists trying to impose US economic imperialism. And, despite the clear fascistic factions within the protests, the objections to government deals with Russia reflect real sentiment in the Ukrainian population.

Nothing is so black and white as you seem to wish. Nothing. We are witnessing a war between long standing enemies, not just external puppetry.

[frwrfpos]

21. get back to me the last time you can point to Russia invading another country

The US has fucked up Iraq, Afghanistan, just in the last two decades. Russia is NOT an imperial force like this country. They dont go around bombing and murdering like we do.

Please dont insult me with your lack of history

[Gravitycollapse]

23. 2008, Georgia (South Ossetia).

[bobduca]

25. cmon now...

he said history, not *recent history*

[frwrfpos]

27. fighting against islamists

who also want to destabilize Russia

next

[Gravitycollapse]

30. WTF. You were JUST talking about US imperialism in Afghanistan.

What was the argument made for that invasion? Oh, yeah, fighting Islamic fundamentalists.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[NuclearDem]

32. Uh, that's not what the South Ossetia war was about.

Please don't insult me with your lack of history.

[muriel_volestrangler]

40. You need to read about Georgia, or South Ossetia, before embarrassing yourself more

It's very easy these days, with Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_%28country%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

You just called one of the oldest continually Christian countries in the world (its neighbour, Armenia, has been Christian slightly longer) 'islamist'.

[dipsydoodle]

43. That was by invitation from South Ossetia i.e at their request.

Not an invasion.

[Gravitycollapse]

44. And South Ossetia was Georgian territory. So it was an invasion.

[dipsydoodle]

45. Are you saying Georgia made a full blown military attack on it own territory

following advice and training from both the US and Israel.



See elsewhere for Ossetia's history. Reading , instead of ignoring, reply #40 might help you : http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4539428

[Gravitycollapse]

47. Yes, I am. If you find that concept ridiculous, you need to read about separatist wars.

[NuclearDem]

50. As a supplement, you could try reading up on the history of Kurdistan and Chechnya.

Since countries quelling separatist uprisings is completely unheard of.

[NuclearDem]

26. Sure they're not.

I mean, I'm sure the Finns, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Polish, Ukranians, Georgians, Krgyzstanis, Kazakhs, Azerbaijani, Uzbek, Tajik, Belorussians, Moldovans, Hungarians, Germans, and Afghanis might disagree, but no, Russia is clearly not an imperial power.

"But that was the USSR, not Russia!"

The Georgians and Chechens are still pretty pissed, as well as the people living under the Assad regime Russia has refused to abandon.

[Adsos Letter]

36. The first Chechen War

Russian tactics in that war (flattening Grozny, for instance) had a lot to do with making that place a haven for mote radical islamists.

[jamzrockz]

42. Dont forget Libya

Us Africans will never forget what happened over there

[SfromCanada]

53. Excuse me?

Does Czechoslovakia, 1968 ring a bell? Anywhere? Or Hungary, 1953?

[springchick]

60. Afghanistan-1979.

Quit embarrassing yourself. The only one insulting you is you.

[11 Bravo]

61. Do you see any irony in mentioning Afghanistan in the context of your post?

[davidpdx]

38. I agree

But I also think Russia needs to some extent to stop the spread of Europe that is inching toward them. Many of the countries in Eastern Europe that haven't joined the EU want to (granted the EU probably won't take them all as some won't meet their criteria). From what I've read Russia is trying to build somewhat of a union not exactly like it had before, but countries that are interdependent. There are only a handful of states left of which the Ukraine and Belarus are the biggest and closest to their boarder. If I was Russia and playing strategy those are the two they can't lose. Moldavia is probably a close third.

[Adrahil]

54. What about countering RUSSIAN imperialism?

I'd say the Ukranians are in MUCH more danger from the people who have been there imperial masters for centuries.

[jberryhill]

15. Hey Vladimir, just because your hockey team lost...

...doesn't mean you should drag your butthurt to DU.

[davidpdx]

39. ...

ROFL

[cherokeeprogressive]

24. They won't need to: USA imposes sanctions. Ukraine suffers. Russia offers aid. Ukraine accepts.

Simple as that.

[1000words]

28. The Ukraine has a pretty mighty bargaining chip, themselves.

Location, location, location.

[Renew Deal]

29. If that happens, all bets are off

Get ready for war

[Loaded Liberal Dem]

33. From Slate: Feb. 20 2014 8:00 PM

Last edited Fri Feb 21, 2014, 02:21 AM - Edit history (1)

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/02/ukraine_s_opaque_politics_the_smears_and_clich_s_used_to_describe_the_fight.html

Fraternal assistance
This is a Soviet expression, once used to justify the Soviet invasions of Prague in 1968 and Afghanistan in 1979. Fraternal assistance was intended to prevent Soviet puppet states from being overthrown, whether violently or peacefully. In December, Russian President Vladimir Putin called Ukraine a "fraternal" country, hinting that he sees it as a puppet state. This week, a senior Russian parliamentarian declared that he and his colleagues are "prepared to give all the necessary assistance should the fraternal Ukrainian people ask for it." This may well be the cue for pro-Russian organizations inside Ukraine to ask for intervention.

Anti-terrorist operation
This is a Putin-era expression used to justify the Russian invasion of Chechnya in 1999. An anti-terrorist operation, in this particular context, means that anything is permitted: The term granted Russian soldiers carte blanche to destroy Grozny, the Chechen capital. This is why so many reacted with horror earlier this week when the Ukrainian defense ministry warned that the army "might be used in anti-terrorist operations on the territory of Ukraine."

Coup d'etat
This more universal expression has been used since November by both the Ukrainian government and Russian commentators to describe street protests in Kiev and elsewhere. It can mean anything from "peaceful protests that we don't like" to "protesters using violence against police," but either way, it is a term being used to justify the deployment of an "anti-terrorist operation" and not necessarily to describe an actual coup d'etat.

Gee whiz, I guess you're right: I'm just being paranoid!

[Loaded Liberal Dem]

34. Kick after Edit

Good night!

[lapfog_1]

35. A moment of reflection for the victims...

A grand structure (Heros Gate) planned but never constructed.

And accompanied by a classic bit of music by Mussorgsky (starts grand but finishes appropriately for the times).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Modest_Mussorgsky_-_pictures_at_an_exhibition_-_x._la_grande_porte_de_kiev_-_allegro_alla_breve._maestoso._con_grandezza.ogg

[pangaia]

52. Too bad the Wiki poster couldn't have chosen

a slightly better recording like the..... oh, how about the Berlin Philharmonic, or the Chicago Symphony, instead of some backwater high school. :&gt )))

[lapfog_1]

55. yes... possibly some copyright violation or something. - n/t

[pangaia]

57. Naa, available on YouTube. :>))

[dipsydoodle]

37. Russian Army has no need to invade Ukraine / would serve no useful purpose.

Russia holds the strings on their economy which the west are not currently willing to match. At the point of the negotiations with the EU last year Ukraine made it clear they would need at least $8 billion for the transition and the EU offered $1 billion at which point the talks ended. Russia subsequently agreed a figure of $15 billion broken into traunches - $5 billion so far to date. That figure gets them through to 2015 assuming no other changes.

Full amount to get Ukraine through a complete transition , over a number of years, from Russia to the EU is regarded as being $220 billion - a figure which more or less matches the cost of the complete bailout of Greece.

So - the Russian Army would invade Ukraine why ?

[joeybee12]

46. Possible, but I don't think so...

Although quite frankly Putin controls the Ukranian Army and the Ukranian government, so there's no need to send the Russian Army there.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

48. You must be confusing Russia with the USA in the way they handle "requests".

[CFLDem]

49. As one poster said, there's 10 levels of scary before that happens.

But if some news reports are to be believed, the situation is already a nascent civil war that can run through those 10 levels pretty quickly.

What I think will likely happen is the Ukraine will dissolve into separate states. And that is when Russia rushes in as a humanitarian force to claim Abkhazia, etc.

[Warpy]

51. I sincerely doubt that

Putin is many things, but stupid isn't one of them.

He knows the reaction of the west to any attempt to march into the Ukraine would be both swift and very ugly.

[hrmjustin]

56. I hope not.