(edited title) False allegations of rape and domestic violence are few and far between

[redqueen]

Last edited Mon Dec 30, 2013, 11:11 AM - Edit history (7)

The Crown Prosecution Service has come a long way in dealing with cases involving violence against women and girls. In the last year (2011-12) we have seen the conviction rate rise to 73%, delivering the lowest attrition rates ever recorded. The CPS has now published a trailblazing report on so-called "false allegations" of rape or domestic violence.

In recent years both the police and prosecutors have put a great deal of effort into improving the way we investigate and prosecute sexual offences. The results of the changes and improvements that have been made are encouraging. Our committed and specialist staff have prioritised performance in these important and difficult cases. We have bolstered training, policies and guidance for rape and domestic violence specialists. Closer working with the police and specialist services has helped to address the types of ingrained practices that can ignore, or even add to, the victimisation of women and girls. But there is still more that we must do to improve.

In recent years we have worked hard to dispel the damaging myths and stereotypes associated with these cases. One such misplaced belief is that false allegations of rape and domestic violence are rife. This report presents a more accurate picture.

...

This report outlines the key findings from the review of those cases and the steps that we plan to take. Importantly, what it shows is that charges brought for perverting the course of justice or wasting police time for such "false" allegations need to be considered in the context of the total number of prosecutions brought for those offences. In the period of the review, there were 5,651 prosecutions for rape and 111,891 for domestic violence. During the same period there were 35 prosecutions for making false allegations of rape, six for making false allegation of domestic violence and three for making false allegations of both rape and domestic violence

...

http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/research/perverting_course_of_justice_march_2013.pdf

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/mar/13/false-allegations-rape-domestic-violence-rare?view=mobile

Let me just add this to the OP:

No, the point of this isn't that all accused men should be assumed to be guilty.

The point is when people say that false rape allegations are common, they're either ignorant or outright liars.

The idea that false rape allegations are common is used to increase the societal pressure on victims not to come forward and tell anyone, let alone report it to authorities. That's why MRAs do stuff like circulating posters accusing women of being liars, and claiming they were raped but really they just regretted sleeping with someone.

All of this is done to maintain and enable rape culture. And all of it needs to stop.



on edit: When I saw this story linked, I saw it with the title that I previously used. I have now edited it to show the article's title.

[Ohio Joe]

1. And the MRA group will blather on about every one they can find...

Anything to show how oppressed they are.

[Egalitarian Thug]

12. What else have they got?

They still haven't figured out that what was cute for an 8 year old is just really sad when you're 40.

[zappaman]

19. Is that the He Mans Woman Haters Club?

Man, I used to love the little rascals!

[Egalitarian Thug]

23. Non other (pre-Darla of course). n/t

[BainsBane]

52. and use one case to excuse every single rapist

to claim he is innocent and the victim a liar.

[Katashi_itto]

103. Where is this group? I like to see these posts about their oppression

[Ohio Joe]

124. No... I don't think you do

The blatant and obvious dishonesty can be... Vile.

[K.O. Stradivarius]

2. And despite that...

I'd rather see 99 guilty persons go free than 1 innocent person go to prison.

[gollygee]

3. Well you'll be happy to know

that the statistics are much much greater than that. Many times 100 go free for every guilty person that gets jailed, let alone every innocent person that gets jailed.

[K.O. Stradivarius]

13. That's of small comfort to the innocent person

whom was wrongfully imprisoned, and lost 10-20-30 years or more of their lives wasting away in a prison cell due to false testimony or accusations. Even worse... those whom have been sitting on death row, or wrongfully executed.

[gollygee]

14. Yes it is horrible for someone wrongly imprisoned

so thankfully it's incredibly rare. It's horrible for people wrongly imprisoned for any crime.

[seabeyond]

9. bully for you. rape... pffft. nt

[K.O. Stradivarius]

24. Yeah... bully for you too.

I don't give a flying fuck if it's rape, murder, robbery, assault or pissing on the neighbors lawn

It's not you, someone you know, a family member sitting in a prison cell... so why should you care?

I'd still prefer to see a guilty as hell person go on a 99 women rape spree walk the streets, as opposed to the one guy who never even touched her serve a day in prison.

False accusations and testimony are a reality and should be wortyh and taking into consideration by police, prosecutors, judge and jury.

[Sheldon Cooper]

43. Well perhaps when you are raped and your rapist walks free you may feel differently.

Or would you? I'm curious.

[ismnotwasm]

58. So 99 raped human beings mean less to you than one?

For some reason, that Reminds me of Phillip Morris utilitarianism. That study that said smoking is good for the economy because it kills people off younger, and they don't use as much Medicare, which in turn helps the economy

Children, men, babies and women are raped. Its not just women.


However, I want to see the guilty punished, the blameless go free. Unfortunately for every falsely imprisoned accused, there are many more guilty but not convicted.


Our justice system needs quite a bit of improvement.

[treestar]

70. The justice system is imperfect for every issue it handles

And it has improved greatly, which is a point in the OP article.

But someone this other poster is only worried about .6% of cases and would rather see 99 women get raped - that's next to hoping rape will be repealed as a crime.

[treestar]

69. Really?

That third paragraph is rather revealing.

The legal system is imperfect, but it's more likely many rapists do walk free than there being an not-guilty accused rapists convicted. Look at the statistic from the UK.

[Squinch]

83. You know that you actually wrote these words, right?

"I'd still prefer to see a guilty as hell person go on a 99 women rape spree walk the streets"

Somehow it doesn't surprise me.

And you are setting up a false dichotomy. It is like saying we need to let Charles Manson out of jail because there are people in prison who are falsely accused of murder. (And BTW, Manson killed many fewer than 99)

Surely even you can see that.

[seabeyond]

92. what you are arguing is that no crime should EVER be prosecuted.

[Gormy Cuss]

93. 99 victims worth < 1 falsely convicted.

That's some mighty sick math.


I don't see anyone on this thread stating that false accusations don't exist. I also don't see anyone saying that the justice system shouldn't look at all of the evidence and testimony when determining an outcome.

[el_bryanto]

15. That's an odd response - first of all as is pointed out above

most rapists do go free and are able to prey on women repeatedly, should they choose to, because of the stigma attached to rape.

But secondly - you really want 99% of guilty rapists to go free to prey on people? That's preferable than even one innocent person end up behind bars? I do understand the sympathy for a wrongly accused male (as it is a terrible social stigma) but do you think that might be an overreaction?

Bryant

[redqueen]

22. No, sadly it isn't.

DU used to be different from the rest of the net. That's no longer the case.

[davidn3600]

28. It's easy to make that sacrifice when it's not you or a family member who is falsely accused

[el_bryanto]

31. 0.6% of rape cases. That implies that 99.4% of the time the accused is guilty

While I am sorry for your personal tragedy, assuming its happened to you, and I think that it's terrible that such things happen, for every person in that situation there's 99 fucks who actually did rape somebody. And that's probably what matters more.

Bryant

[davidn3600]

33. I was making a hypothetical..but...

To suggest that if I am falsely accused I should fall on the sword so that it assures conviction of the truly guilty is a disgusting request to make of any person. It's a gross violation of constitutional and human rights.

Such talk has no place in a free society.

If you think it's noble for an innocent man to go to prison so that it assures guilty men also go, then put yourself in that positon. Would you do it? Maybe you would... but I wouldn't. Im telling the truth right now, I would not make that choice nor would I even offer that choice to anyone because it's ethically wrong to ask an innocent person to sacrifice their life because of the crimes of other people. Such a request is disgusting and unAmerican in every way.

[redqueen]

34. Fall on the sword? He never said anything even remotely resembling that.

He never said it was noble for innocent men to go to jail. This thread is about countering the notion that false rape allegations are common.

[davidn3600]

38. And nobody here ever said that they are common...

...but there seems to be a sentiment among some here that if a man is accused of this crime that he should be immediately sent to prison since so few women actually lie about it that it's insignificant to consider the people who are truly falsely accused.

[redqueen]

41. Really? Hmm... I could've sworn I'd seen the 45%+ claim posted here.

Conversely, I have definitely never seen the sentiment you refer to, that "if a man is accused he should be immediately be sent to prison".

[whopis01]

95. Do you really see that happening here?

I hardly see any posts promoting that idea.

In fact, the second reply was someone saying that they would rather see 99 go free than imprison 1 wrongly. And they even later clarified that they would "still prefer to see a guilty as hell person go on a 99 women rape spree walk the streets, as opposed to the one guy who never even touched her serve a day in prison.".

The OP wasn't suggesting in the slightest that men be locked up immediately upon accusation of rape. Anyone can see that. There is a concerted effort to convince people that a significant portion of rape accusations are false. The OP was targeted against that.

The problem is that rape accusations are often (not always, but often) given far less consideration that other types of accusations. And often efforts are made to blame the victim - either by insinuating it may be false, or that it wasn't actually rape, or that the victim put themselves in that situation and that's just what happens.

So, in short no one is saying that men should be locked up immediately upon accusation. And no one is saying that they should be presumed guilty until proven innocent.

But likewise, shouldn't someone accused of falsely reporting a rape be presumed innocent until proven guilty?

[el_bryanto]

37. That's an even odder response

I'm really not sure how to respond - RedQueen did a pretty good job, but if they can prove their innocence than of course they should prove their innocence. I'm certainly not advocating doing away with our court system for those accused of rape.

Bryant

[davidn3600]

39. You don't prove innocence in this country...that's not how it works

This is America. You are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY! Why is that simple concept so fucking difficult to understand around here????

[el_bryanto]

42. OK - than if the State can make their case they should pay the price.

What exactly are you advocating? That we should go easier on those accused of rape?

Bryant

[davidn3600]

56. Im advocating for those who are truly innocent

I know someone who went to prison for a crime they didnt commit. It does happen. The ACLU and Innocence Project says up to 5% of prisoners today are truly innocent of the crimes they were convicted of. Innocent people have been released from prison after decades. So yes, innocent people go to prison. And I personally find that to be a travesty.

However there are some here who feel that by saying that so few women lie about an accusation, that it shouldnt bother be considered that an accuser could be lying. And that ultimately, it should be the accused that has to prove themselves innocent. That's not how the system works. You have to prove the accused guilty, which ultimately means the burden is on the prosecutor...and unfortunately the victim.

[treestar]

71. And no one said your second paragraph

Only that false accusations are not so common as has been claimed. And that has been claimed.

[Squinch]

85. So crimes shouldn't be prosecuted? Because I'm not seeing anything else that would

satisfy your comment.

[Squinch]

84. But the premise is ridiculous. It is the same as saying that murderers should go free because some

people are falsely accused of murder (a much higher percentage, it appears, than men who are falsely accused of rape.)

I suspect no one would support that premise.

[K.O. Stradivarius]

29. Not at all.

But a question like that might be better asked of someone who has been there.

[el_bryanto]

32. Nods - well I can see how their experience might be relevant

So what we should do is listen to the story of the man who's been falsely accused of rape and then listen to 99 women tell of their experience actually being raped and then we'll have a balanced position from which to judge.

Bryant

[Schema Thing]

49. apples to not-remotely-apples comparison you've suggested there.

[el_bryanto]

51. Why does one experience matter more than the other? nt

[intaglio]

78. So you would rather 99 women were raped

and the perpetrators get away with it than one person be charged (not convicted, charged) falsely.

[Squinch]

82. The 99 guilty persons going free represent many multiples of 99 women being

raped. And the actual statistics of the number of guilty who go free are much higher than 99 out of a hundred. So personally, I'd rather see us get a lot better at getting those 99 off the streets.

[athena]

120. Would you say the same thing about murder and theft?

Would you rather have 99 people accused correctly of theft go free than one person accused incorrectly of theft go to prison?

Would you rather have 99 people accused correctly of murder go free than one person accused falsely of murder go to prison?

Unless your answer to both of the above questions is "yes", you consider rape to be a significantly lesser crime than both murder and theft. Could that possibly be because most victims of rape are female? In other words, a crime is less bad if it is against a woman than a man? It seems pretty clear that in your eyes, women are lesser beings than men. I hope all the women you are likely to be involved with realize that.

[NCTraveler]

121. When it comes to rape, you are getting your wish.

As sick as that wish is.

[etherealtruth]

4. I expect a flurry of posts

... highlighting every false report or suspected false report of rape to flood the pages of DU.

It is news when these false reports occur ... because they are an aberration, NOT the norm.

[seabeyond]

11. just general dismissal and rather see 99 rapist go free so that .6 of a person does not go to jail

callous.

[davidn3600]

5. Whether it's .01% or 50% it doesn't make any difference when it comes to an individual trial

I'm not an expert on the British legal system, so I won't comment on that.

But in America, a person is innocent until they are proven guilty in a court of law.

For some reason, people think that because so few women lie in cases like this, that these stats serves as some kind of evidence of guilt in a case. Statistics like this will never be allowed in a courtroom. A jury's job is to weigh the facts and testimony in each individual case....not how other women behave in other cases.

If out of 100 given rape cases, 1 person is truly innocent, that 1 innocent person must be protected. We don't sacrifice that 1 innocent so the 99 can be punished. That isn't the way it works in America.

[gollygee]

7. Did anyone say anything you're suggesting people said?

The point is that it's a rare occurrence. But of course innocent people shouldn't go to jail for anything.

[treestar]

72. No they didn't.

Amazing the lengths people will go rather than just deal with being wrong about a prior statement.

[seabeyond]

8. derail. it matters because of using a claim of 45%-75% dismisses rape of our girls and women.

so it may not matter to you. but it sure as hell matters to me. and it matters to every girl that walks into a police station and FALSE CLAIM is upper most in the cops mind, and everyone else in this culture.

so you dismiss it. i will yell it off the roof tops. cause it fuckin does MATTER

[davidn3600]

17. I'm talking about trials and juries, not the police

The police should investigate every criminal complaint. And if there is reason to believe a crime occurred after investigating, present the case to the prosecutor who then will make the determination on how to proceed or if to proceed.

However, again it comes down to evidence and ultimately how a jury weighs the testimony. Many cases who are he-said, she-said and have no other evidence or witnesses end in acquittals or hung juries. So ultimately the prosecutors don't move forward on such cases due to lack of evidence.

[seabeyond]

91. what you are arguing is that no crime should EVER be prosecuted.

[jeff47]

45. Lovely distraction.

Yeah, we need to worry very much about the terrible social cost paid by someone accused of rape and acquitted.

Right after we worry about Mitt Romney's tax bill being so large.

[sibelian]

89. Uh, yes we DO have to worry about rape accusations and acquittal

for several reasons:

1. In cases where the rape actually occurred the perpetrator may very well feel emboldened to repeat the crime
2. In cases where the rape did NOT occur we have an innocent person who will now have to face the stigma of suspicion long after the acquittal as acquittal often isn't good enough in the eyes of the public as there is a narrative of rape convictions for ACTUAL rape being lower than they should be, so you know, no smoke without fire...
3. In cases where the rape did NOT occur we have an accuser who has been trying to use the justice system presumably for totally nefarious purposes, availing themselves of the facts that rape usually occurs in private and that victim testimony being of greater weight than in other cases gives them a good chance of exploiting the system, and this accuser is now usually able to walk away. Courts do not typically prosecute rape accusers in cases of acquittal.

None of these issues are somehow morally insignificant, the rate at which they occur isn't a factor in determining their significance. We don't decide bad things are okay or somehow a "distraction" because they don't happen very often.

[jeff47]

96. Are you worried about people struck by lightning?

'Cause that's much more common. And it's deadly.

When we reach the point where people living under a cloud of suspicion from a false rape accusation are a significant size, then we can give a damn about it.

How 'bout this: Without searching on the Internet, can you name any of the Duke Lacrosse players that were accused of rape? No? Golly, it's almost like it doesn't cause such a massive problem....

[seabeyond]

6. thank you redq. UK taking htis seriously. GOOD. it always made sense false claims would be LOWER

than most crimes in false claims since the victim is beat up so, even reporting a rape.

[redqueen]

25. Since so many people work so hard to push the illusion that false rape allegations are common

the reality of the situation needs to be discussed often.

[Nye Bevan]

10. 35 false accusations of rape in a year is still 35 too many

given the devastating impact such false accusations have on the life of the person falsely accused.

And bear in mind, this total is only the false accusations that were actually prosecuted.

[gollygee]

16. 35 rapes a year is 35 too many rapes as well.

Well it would be if there were only 35.

[LisaLynne]

18. +1. nt

[etherealtruth]

20. Of course false accusations are not acceptable

... nor is it acceptable to use an extremely small number of these false accusations to make it more difficult to prosecute rapists make it more difficult for victims of rape to come forward (a crime where victims are reluctant to come forward in the first place) ... which sadly, seems to be the end result.

I never want to see a falsely accused person convicted (or traumatized by the process) ... I also do not to see victims of crime further traumatized because they dared to come forward.

[treestar]

73. No legal system is ever going to be perfect

And women go in with a battle on credibility, since so many insist on thinking they would put themselves through that just over regret.

[Skip Intro]

26. So men accused of rape should be considered guilty from the start?

Simply because they've been accused?

Is that the point?

[LisaLynne]

27. Oh yes, that's totally the point.

No, the point is that there is a prevailing myth that women lie often about rape and this study is a small step in show that not to be the case.

[redqueen]

30. No, the point is when people say that false rape allegations are common, they're either ignorant

or outright liars.

You might not know this, but the idea that false rape allegations are common is an idea that people like to use to increase the societal pressure on victims not to come forward and tell anyone, let alone report it to authorities.

[freshwest]

48. Yes, it harms both sexes, so it's not just men vs women. Some insist on framing it that way,

but when they deny all charges of rape by harping on the .06%, they also endanger all the victims. A harm to one is a harm to all. They don't see that far ahead. They forget Y.E.T.

[jeff47]

46. You aren't that stupid.

You really should stop pretending to be that dumb.

[treestar]

74. No.

Positioning the accused ones as the victims already.

[Squinch]

87. Well, maybe the point is that a small percentages of allegations are false.

That's what I read there.

[Cerridwen]

35. "Rape investigations 'undermined by belief that false accusations are rife'"

Rape investigations 'undermined by belief that false accusations are rife'

The study released on Wednesday by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) reveals that during the 17-month test period – when all false allegation cases were referred to the DPP – there were 5,651 prosecutions for rape and 111,891 for domestic violence in England and Wales.

<snip because I want another paragraph below>

"Victims of rape and domestic violence must not be deterred from reporting the abuse they have suffered," Starmer says in the foreword to the report. "We have worked hard to dispel the damaging myths and stereotypes which are associated with these cases.

"One such misplaced belief is that false allegations of rape and domestic violence are rife."

The remaining 99.4 percent of rape victims are potentially denied an honest and rigorous investigation because the latest belief that "women lie about rape."

I wonder what that does do the conviction rate. Do you think 99 go free for every 1 jailed? Or is it more likely that far more go free because few are investigated; rigorously or otherwise?

Of 159 suspects linked to allegedly false claims referred to the CPS between January 2011 and May 2012, 92% were women. Nearly half of them were 21 or under. One surprise was that in 38% of those investigations, the initial complaint of rape or domestic violence was made by someone other than the suspect. Among those under 18 it was 50% and often involved a parent. (emphasis added)

I presume those 159 suspects are considered innocent until proven guilty?

[redqueen]

36. "Rape investigations 'undermined by belief that false accusations are rife'"

Thank you. Exactly.

[Cerridwen]

40. That is what happens when "common knowledge" is manufactured

with an agenda to harm.

It is also what happens when "the media" is corrupt and bought. Lies are repeated over and over as fact.

[Squinch]

86. You are the queen of great sources!

[Cerridwen]

104. Thank you. Actually, I'm a bookworm and a nerd.

I like researching and reading and I have a (unearned) gift for google-fu. I understand how search engines work and I'm able to take advantage of that.

I also have years of reading anything and everything and remembering a lot of it.

So...not a queen. Just an old geeky nerd; or an old nerdy geek.

[Squinch]

106. I, too, have embraced my nerd. I think it is my best quality.

Nerds UNITE!

[Cerridwen]

109. What was the pain of my childhood now becomes an honor.

"Revenge of the nerds!" indeed.

Of course, in our case it's not so much revenge as acceptance. Damn. It feels good.

May I hug? I'm gonna hug.

[Squinch]

110. LOL! Oh, please do!

[Cerridwen]

112. :D

Thanks.

Oh yeah...again?



Wait...another?



Ahem...consider this a post by silly Cerridwen.

[Squinch]

117. Now, Everybody!

[pnwmom]

54. It works both ways, unfortunately. How many times did I read here

that the Duke lacrosse students must be guilty, because women (almost) never falsely claim rape?

Even the fact that Crystal Mangum had previously made a false claim about a gang rape didn't matter.

[Cerridwen]

102. You forgot Tawana Brawley.

That and the duke case are the two majorly publicized cases of false rape claims that make the case for the "belief that false accusations are rife."

You see, if you want to make normal the abnormal, keep repeating and publicizing the abnormal and make it look as though it happens frequently rather than rarely and make sure it receives a lot of publicity.

As I'm sure you are aware, "women over the age of 40 or more likely to be killed by a terrorist than to marry."

Another piece of "common knowledge" that became common with little knowledge, fact, or truth.

[pnwmom]

105. I don't believe and I never said that false accusations are common. BUT

anyone accused of a crime deserves the presumption of innocence, not matter what the statistics appear to show.

[Cerridwen]

107. You said, "It works both ways, unfortunately."

That implies an equal balance.

[pnwmom]

108. No, it doesn't. n/t

[Cerridwen]

111. I will now bow out and you can have the final word in the

No, it doesn't.

Yes, it did.

Little contretemps.

Have a great evening where you are.

[Zorra]

44. That's misleading. You can't base that statistic on prosecutions, because prosecutors are reluctant

to file charges of false rape, for obvious reasons ~ prosecutors don't want to file charges of false rape because it will prevent those of us who have been raped from coming forward.

Seriously, somewhere around 1.5% - 2% would be a more realistic figure.

[jeff47]

47. Based on what?

The numbers you removed from your posterior?

[pnwmom]

53. The general point is true, though. The number of prosecuted rapes

is lower than the actual number of rapes; and the number of prosecuted false allegations is lower than the number of false allegations.

We don't know the actual number of either crime -- all we have is statistical guesswork.

[jeff47]

55. The percentage should be roughly consistent.

Let's use more convenient numbers: We'll say there are 5 "false" rapes and 95 "real" rapes. 100 total, 5% false.

Let's say that only 1-in-5 rapes are prosecuted. That would be 20 cases. The number of false accusations? One. That's still 5%.

The fact that a low percentage are prosecuted doesn't increase the rate of false claims.

[pnwmom]

57. I don't know how we can make that assumption.

There could be different reasons for rapes not being prosecuted vs. false allegations not being prosecuted, which could affect the % of each that is prosecuted.

[jeff47]

59. Those reasons couldn't possibly turn 0.6% into 3%.

or whatever number that poster wants to pull from his ass in order to turn "false accusations" into a significant problem.

The reasons for not prosecuting a "real" rape or a "false" rape are going to average out over the broad population.

[dsc]

94. yes they well could

I am not saying they do, I have no idea, but it is surely not absurd, and one would actually hope it to be true, that false allegations of rape are many times less likely to be prosecuted than true ones. In this case it would only have to be 10 times more likely if half of rape cases were prosecuted. The lower the percent of cases prosecuted the fewer times more likely it would have to be.

[jeff47]

97. And that relies on the false assumption that false accusations are less likely to get prosecuted.

From the statistics, it looks like both truthful and false accusations are unlikely to get prosecuted.

[dsc]

101. apparently you didn't bother to read my post

I didn't make any assumptions in it. I said IF false accusations are less likely to be prosecuted. I did also say that one would hope that would be the case. I said in that post, and I will say again in this post, that we don't know if there is a difference in the rates of prosecution between true and false cases, but if there is, and one would hope there would be, then the figure would be wrong as applied to all rape cases as opposed to cases which were prosecuted.

[jeff47]

113. And again, we have no real reason to believe that there's a difference

There is not a massive number of cases where they don't prosecute because the woman was lying.

Far more of the non-prosecuted cases are truthful on the woman's part. But they end up being he-said/she-said, so they don't go to trial.

The number of women who make false claims, with or without reaching trial, is tiny.

[dsc]

116. You are conflating two different things.

It would hardly have to be a massive number of rapes being unprosecuted for lying to make the numbers work. Let me use numbers to illustrate. Say you have 2000 rapes of which 1000 are prosecuted and 1000 aren't. Of the 1000 prosecuted, 6 will have been lying (.6%). For the real number of lying to be 3% over all there would be 60 such rapes (3% of 2000) leaving 54 of the 1000 non prosecuted to be lying. That is only 5.4% which is hardly massive. If the ratio is more like the figures we have been given for prosecuted vs non prosecuted say 5000 total with 1000 prosecuted, then the numbers are even less massive. Here you would have a total of 150 cases of lying of which 144 weren't prosecuted which is just over 4%. Now I admit to having no proof that the numbers work out the way I have laid them out. But I would have to think that there would be more cases of lying among those not prosecuted vs those that were prosecuted if for no other reason the fact defendants may have alibis when the accuser is lying.

[jeff47]

128. Lying isn't the barrier to prosecution.

With a rape case, it is difficult to convict if the case comes down to he-said/she-said. Which is the most common reason a case doesn't go to trial. With our system's bias towards innocence, prosecutors need more than the victim's testimony - if she testifies she said "no", and he testifies she said "yes", and that's the only evidence, then there will not be a conviction.

If she's lying, what do prosecutors have? Only the victim's testimony.

As a result, lying about being raped is not a terribly effective tactic. Which means it's not going to be employed often. So even 3% is a massive overstatement.

[dsc]

129. you have no earthly idea if 3% is high or not

sorry but you just don't. I am not claiming to know either. The fact is I took the time to explain, in detail, that both what you said in this post could be true, and what I said could also be true. You apparently can't or won't grasp it. I am by no means saying, or do I believe, that lying about rape is common. But I do think that it is quite possible that it is as high as previous studies have shown it to be (in the range of 2 to 3 percent) and is quite probably higher than the .6 percent the OP was saying (she has since edited). Again, I could be wrong, I have no idea, but you quite frankly don't either. Incidentally, even with your reasoning, the number of false claims should be higher among those that don't get prosecuted since those would be less likely to have other evidence.

[jeff47]

130. Actually, I do.

Remember, that 0.6% number didn't come out of thin air.

The fact is I took the time to explain, in detail, that both what you said in this post could be true, and what I said could also be true. You apparently can't or won't grasp it.

No, I fully understand what you were arguing. I was pointing out the massive hole in it - he-said/she-said rape cases don't result in a conviction. As a result, there's little reason to prosecute them, which results in lying about rape not being an effective tactic.

Incidentally, even with your reasoning, the number of false claims should be higher among those that don't get prosecuted since those would be less likely to have other evidence.

Only if women are morons.

If they aren't morons, they will be aware that lying about rape is not a terribly effective tactic.

[dsc]

131. then they would never be prosecuted

and certainly some are. If no he said, she said cases were ever prosecuted, there would be virtually no rape cases prosecuted. On your second point, why do any women lie? Even you say some do. The simple fact is the study was flawed, with one flaw being that non prosecuted cased weren't looked at.

[Zorra]

98. Nah, since the FBI says the stat is 8%, and rq's figure is 0.6%, it seemed

like a reasonable compromise, giving rq more cred than the FBI.

[seabeyond]

99. 8% unfounded. now, read up what unfounded consists of. not fighting off rape ect... really want to

go there?

FBI statistics

FBI reports from 1996 consistently put the number of "unfounded" rape accusations around 8%. In contrast, the average rate of unfounded reports for "Index crimes" tracked by the FBI is 2%.[14]
However, "unfounded" is not synonymous with false allegation. Bruce Gross of the Forensic Examiner says that:

This statistic is almost meaningless, as many of the jurisdictions from which the FBI collects data on crime use different definitions of, or criteria for, "unfounded." That is, a report of rape might be classified as unfounded (rather than as forcible rape) if the alleged victim did not try to fight off the suspect, if the alleged perpetrator did not use physical force or a weapon of some sort, if the alleged victim did not sustain any physical injuries, or if the alleged victim and the accused had a prior sexual relationship. Similarly, a report might be deemed unfounded if there is no physical evidence or too many inconsistencies between the accuser's statement and what evidence does exist. As such, although some unfounded cases of rape may be false or fabricated, not all unfounded cases are false.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

[Zorra]

100. True. That's another reason why I estimated around 1.5% - 2%. nt

[On the Road]

50. As Someone Who Has Been the Subject of a False Domestic Violence Call

I guess I'm one of the lucky 0.6% (or would be if it were GB).

[redqueen]

60. It's 0.5% for false domestic violence allegations. nt

[pnwmom]

61. For prosecutions of false domestic violence allegations.

We don't know how many are false, only how many are prosecuted.

[TheKentuckian]

62. It seems what is shown is only .6% of rape charges end up being prosecuted for false charges.

Which is not the same thing as claimed in the headline, it is misleading. I'm sure there is a substantial set of occurrences that 5 he truth cannot be discerned by the system.

Some of the convicted are innocent, some of not not guilty are the perps. In any event, it would seem that the circumstances would tend to make a case for false charges to be very difficult to affirmatively prove even in the cases where the accused is found not guilty.

False charges are low, I can buy, that conviction rates on this charge actually establish the percentage does not logically follow, the prosecution of such an accusation would be extremely uphill save in very odd situations where clear and demonstrable evidence is just sitting there.

I would further argue that the false charge conviction rate for all crimes is some very low number, perhaps so low that .6% might be on the high side.

Consistently applying this logic to all crimes and all the sudden what we really come to is a dangerous rationale against the presumption of innocence.

There is significant pressure to focus on the crime and ignore the logic here. What is the conviction rate for false accusations of theft? I'm guessing a low, low number.

The logic is that if someone is accused of any crime then the odds are staggeringly high that they must be guilty as evidenced by the tiny numbers of convictions for false charges and that logic is both weak and dishonestly conflicts with the very idea of the presumption of innocence.

It is easy to push wrongheaded ideas in response to a great enough evil that then will be used as precedent in other less emotionally hot button issues.

[Savannahmann]

63. Someone needs a lesson in statistics.

With a conviction rate of 73%, that means that the juries found in 27% of the cases (100-73=27) that the charge was not proven beyond whatever level to convict the British standard of proof is. Now, that brings us to two possible conclusions.

A) The prosecutors are incredibly inept. That conclusion is reached only if the assumption is that all those cases prosecuted were actually rape/domestic violence in truth. If this is your conclusion, then one out of four prosecutions failed because of ineptitude, and the entire staff of the CPS must be fired for mind boggling incompetence.

B) The juries did not agree with the conclusions of the prosecutors because of extenuating circumstances or issues with the evidence presented. This is more likely. The purpose of the prosecutor is to present proof of the guilt, in an effort to convince a jury. The purpose of the defense is to present the other side of the story, to explain the evidence, or to offer an alternative version of events.

The end result is that the claim that one out of four cases is false would be asinine. But it would be easier to argue based upon the rate of conviction. By arguing that only .6% are false based upon the decision of the Prosecutors to take the case to court is equally false. I don't know how many are, I believe that each case should be decided by a jury, on it's own individual merits. I don't like statistics presented by the Government as proof of anything. My experience tells me that the government will find whatever answer they are looking for.

An example. The Governor of Ohio puts out a report every year, this January is the 5th annual report, on the problem of human trafficking and the forced sex trade in Ohio. http://www.examiner.com/article/ohio-human-trafficking-look-beneath-the-surface-a-conference-january-2014

Yes, you read that right, Ohio is apparently a bastion of forced human trafficking and the forced sex trade. I know, I was surprised too when I first heard of this problem. I thought it was Thailand, or some other nation with little or no enforcement, but apparently Ohio is the destination of choice for those who go on Vacations for kinky sex.

The CPS in this story attempted to show that they are weeding out false claims of rape, and examining every case for such claims, before they go to the court to prosecute. The problem is that the conviction statistics are awful if every single case was a clear cut and no doubt available case of Rape/Domestic abuse. The level of incompetence needed to lose one out of four such clear cut cases is astonishing. I mean, you have a hand full of cards, and you're holding a full house. You can't lose right? But somehow they did lose one case out of four.

The other thing to consider is this. Police always think that the accused is Guilty, that's their job. The Prosecutors always think much the same thing, that the accused is guilty. It's the job of the Jury to decide the case based upon it's merits. The only thing you can really take from these statistics, is that the Juries seem to be doing just that. They are not presuming guilt because the defendant is accused. Nor are they dismissing all claims of Rape out of hand. They are convicting those that are believed to be guilty, and finding the others Not Guilty. If anything, it shows that the Juries seem to have an open mind when the case is presented.

[Festivito]

65. Yes, add to that 27% in England is where abortion access is not an issue. Here in US it is.

And, nowhere in the articles presented is 0.6% asserted for anything.

Here in some states women must lie in order to obtain an abortion. Not so in England.

Here there is greater social stigma inducing lies. In England over half of births are to the unwed, IIRC.

Most of this DU thread seems to be a bunch of hooey added to even more hooey.

[Spider Jerusalem]

67. The standard of proof in criminal trials before British courts...

is "beyond a reasonable doubt". Jury instructions are not to convict unless there's absolute certainty of the guilt of the accused. Since a lot of rape cases come down to he said/she said that would account for the disparity in conviction vs false reporting.

[sibelian]

64. Yes...

I have never really understood how a woman is supposed to benefit from falsely accusing someone of rape.

[Drahthaardogs]

66. This is NOT a study, it is not even SCIENCE.

This is a review of data, and a really biased and and bad one at that. It only covered 17 months (why?), and as far a study, it does not qualify.

There were no inclusion nor exclusion criteria, etc. In addition, the authors state they started out trying to prove that the belief that "In recent years we have worked hard to dispel the damaging myths and stereotypes associated with these cases. One such misplaced belief is that false allegations of rape and domestic violence are rife. "

The author PERSONALLY had all suspected cases of false statements sent to THEM for review? Really?

This sentence kills me, In some cases, the person alleged to have made the false report had undoubtedly been the victim of some kind of offence, even if not the one that he or she had reported. Wow.

In addition, why would anyone try to extrapolate UK numbers to the U.S. for something like this? UK has different culture, population, and LAWS.

This is nothing more than an internal report.

[intaglio]

79. The Crown Prosecution Service is biased

Ri-i-i-i-ght

[Drahthaardogs]

81. Um, it's called RESEARCH BIAS

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2917255/


When you have ONE reviewer for ALL data points, it is BIAS and considered bad science. This "study" is bunk and junk.


Learn a little bit before trying to post snark, huh?

[treestar]

68. That is one of the dumbest justifications ever

Only a really stupid, mean woman would bother with a false charge of rape just for regret. Very few people are that stupid.

[Prophet 451]

75. I can spot two methodological problems here

Firstly, 0.6 isn't the percentage that were false, it's the percentage where the CPS chose to bring charges for making a false report. As we should both know, the CPS frequently declines to bring charges for all sorts of reasons.

Secondly, a conviction rate of 73% means that a jury decided that, in 27% of cases, the accusation was shown to be either false or unproven.

Finally, this conflicts with every other study I've read which generally show a false accusation rate of around 4%. Still a tiny minority, yes, but considerably higher than 0.6%.

[sendero]

80. Just goes to show..

... there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. The study's conclusion don't resemble the OP's assertion in any way.

[retread]

76. The study concludes the charge that false allegations are rife is wrong. In examining false

allegations, it finds mental health issues in a large number of the false allegations and also finds that in some cases while rape or domestic violence did not occur, some offense against the accuser did occur.

Of course admitting that even the minute percentage of false accusations are complex and not driven by "regret" over having sex with someone would not fit the victim meme perpetrated by the few and the loud.

[The Straight Story]

77. 0.6% is about the same as gun owners who commit crimes with their guns

Which means 99% don't.

Yet the many get labeled as suspicious, humpers, etc because of what those few do.

I wonder if it is acceptable to do so when it comes to guns but not other things (ie, to paint the many based on the few)?

The principle is the same. Maybe it is *because* of the few the many are upset and see such crimes as something to bring to light --- well, actually, crime in general. Most people don't go out and rob the local Taco Bell. But the ones that do make the news.

Most women don't falsely report rape. But when one does, because it is not normal, it gets reported on. Just like about every other story in the news which covers things involving out of the ordinary stories.

[99Forever]

90. Oh goody, another torturing of ACTUAL statistics ....

... to lob another grenade in DU Gender War nonsense.

"There are lies, damned lies and statistics." - Mark Twain

[Jackpine Radical]

114. I'm sure you're aware that various studies, using various methodologies,

have come up with diffenrent numbers for false rape allegations. The "Mens Rights" groups tend to focus on those studies, like Kanin's, that show the highest numbers. Coincidentally, these seem to be the studies with the poorest methodologies.

Most researchers in the field believe that the rate of false allegations is in the 2-8% range. I think this article from the Progressive on dna exonerations makes some points that are very much on-target.

FWIW, I have often advocated for sentencing rapists to terms that last until at least about age 45, when their likelihood of reoffense is markedly reduced. It might be possible to manage some of them on parole using GPS devices after they serve prison time, but others may well need to sit out their time behind bars.

http://progressive.org/5-things-you-should-know-about-dna-exonerations

The value of DNA exoneration and the good that it does cannot be understated. But sadly, certain people have transmuted the work of innocence projects into a tool for an ugly cause. Namely, men's rights advocates, misogynists, and people who in general just don't know any better perceive DNA exoneration as proof that false rape accusations are more of a thing than they really are.

“153 of the 268 exonerations in the Innocence Project were for rape,” inaccurately reports human-stupidity.com, a men's rights website. “This confirms the false rape society suspicion, that people can easily be locked up for rape accusations, and that due process is violated especially in rape cases.” (This website is downright charming, really; consider this gem on statutory rape: “Am I supposed to request age identification from every full-bodied young woman who comes onto me?”)

Most men's rights organizations have pegged the rate of false rape accusations at 40-50 percent, and for them DNA exonerees are living proof that their numbers are correct—and consequently, that feminists are the worst.

We don't really know the real rates of false rape accusations, but it's certain that they are, thankfully, low. The rate of false rape reports—when someone lies about being raped without pressing charges, as explained here — is between 2-8 percent. The rate of false accusations—where charges are pressed — is much, much lower.

False rape accusations happen, and DNA exonerees are proof that the consequences of that are terrible. But when men's rights groups use those cases to help exaggerate the frequency of false accusations, a rape culture is created, where reports of actual sexual violence are belittled, and rape is tacitly permitted to happen.

[KitSileya]

115. Not to mention, many of those falsely accused of rape

weren't accused by the victim, who reported her crime. I'm sure many of them were the result of shoddy police work, deliberate or no. After all, 180,000 rape kits are languishing untested as we speak, the processing of which might have cleared some men, for example if the dna is matched to a case where the accused had an alibi. However, since the police in many parts of the US aren't interested in doing their job properly, men are falsely found guilty of a rape they didn't commit. The MRAs would rather blame feminists than work to get rape properly investigated, though.

[Jackpine Radical]

119. The largest single cause of false convictions of all sorts

is erroneous witness identification.

[KitSileya]

122. I don't dispute that.

However, at least in the 1/3 of rapes where the victim doesn't know his or her attacker the police should know by now that eye witness reports from traumatized people are unclear. There was a news report on research done about it a couple of months ago posted here on DU. The police are not learning the proper ways of questioning rape victims - the memory processes differently when you've been traumatized. Therefore, they assumed rape victims were lying because they could only remember insignificant details, such as the pattern of the wall paper, but not how the attacker looked.

As an anecdote, a colleague of mine illustrated the problem of unreliable memory when she was hit by a car before Christmas. She was lucky - a car coming towards her lost grip of the road and ended up sideswiping her car. Fortunately, neither driver was hurt, but she was for a time stuck in her car, and this was in a tunnel. The driver of the other car immediately tried to help her out of her car, and others stopped to help too. Afterwards, she described the driver as 6'3", but it turned out, when he came to apologize after she had been released from hospital, that he was 5'6". She just felt so small and powerless that everyone that helped her seemed so much bigger than her.

[snooper2]

118. This is what happens when people follow their holy books-

Deuteronomy 22:28-29



New International Version (NIV)

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
Footnotes:

Deuteronomy 22:29 That is, about 1 1/4 pounds or about 575 grams

[Zorra]

123. Good edit. False allegations of rape are not common. And rape is way more common

than what gets reported.

I'd suspect that half, possibly a good deal more, of the women posting on this board have either been raped and did not report it, and/or had at least had one other woman confide in them that they had been raped, and did not report it.

I know several, including myself, a family member, and one of my ex-partners. I know for a fact that these are not false allegations. All three of us were raped when we were teenagers. My ex and I both at 15, my family member at 18. My family member and I did not tell each other about our respective assaults until 30eyrs later. The rape of my family member was committed by an ex-boyfriend. The other two were committed by predator strangers. I was hitchhiking, my ex was taking a shortcut down some railroad tracks.

And if we add considerable number of unreported cases of sexual abuse of pre-teen children to the rape/sexual assault mix, again, probably most of the women here have had someone confide in them that they were sexually abused as a child, it becomes very clear that there is an enormous problem with our culture's perspective on sex itself.

Obviously. We live in a rape culture.

The first question is, what are the primary causes of this rape culture? Whatever these causes are, they appear to be deeply embedded, institutionalized in the collective consciousness of this society/culture.

The second question is, how do we change it? IMO, the first, most sensible step is to make as many reasonable people as possible aware of urgency of the problem.

Bravo, once again, redqueen.

(On edit: Because my confidants have been primarily women, I am speculating, based on my own experience, about what most women have primarily experienced. I know that men get raped and abused as well. But since none have ever personally confided these things to me, I am using women as an example.)

[KitSileya]

127. That jives with RAINN stats too.

44% of victims being under 18. 3% of victims being men - but that is of all victims, not victims under 18, but if I were to guess, even larger numbers of male victims are under 18 than female victims. It is a staggering chain around the foot for women to live out their lives with - for most of us, it does have lasting effects on many if not all parts of our lives.

And that doesn't include harassment - something many women here on DU has revealed started as early as 11. I tried to explain to another poster that this unrelenting rape culture does shape our reaction to being harassed later in life, but I don't think I was very successful, as I believe she thought I meant that women were natural victims and not strong enough to deal with harassment. Many of those of us who were victimized as children cannot just turn around and make fun of boorish men later in life - it is triggering, and why should we have to? Why not be allowed to put the focus on the behavior of those "boorish" men? Why not be allowed to put the focus on the 98% of rapists, men, especially when we know that 2/3 of them know their victim, and in most cases seem like normal men to their friends and family? Why aren't we allowed to focus on behavior that can be grooming/preparation of victims? Why not be allowed to put a burden on their friends and family to look out for certain signals, rather than again tell girls they shouldn't take shortcuts or socialize at bars with friends?

Sorry, I got off on a tangent there, but after this blew up on DU, my innocence about so-called progressives has been shattered. I've been here since 2001, registered since 2002, and have posted more in the last 2 months than yearly before that, simply to try to get this across on DU.

[SomethingFishy]

125. True.. but take my word for it, when it happens

it can destroy you. It took years and tens of thousands of dollars to prove a false allegation false. Restraining orders, lawyers, judges, psychologists. In the end it took my ex-wife's mother telling the judge her daughter was lying for him to believe me.

No one ever said "oops sorry", she was not made to pay any of the court costs or lawyers fees, no one went to my children's school to tell the teachers and parents that I wasn't an abuser, no one got me my job back....

I just thank god my 2nd wife and my kids are awesome.

[riqster]

126. Thank you!

I will be using this info.