Naval yard shooting: this should end it once and for all

[Bennyboy]

Guns do not make you safer, PERIOD. That place had to have been one place where there were more guns per capita than at an NRA Meeting (oh that's right you can't open carry at an NRA meeting).


NAVY, everyone there is armed, and there are more guns, rockets, ammo etc to (pardon the pun) kill a horse. Hell ain't that base where NCIS is from? Well not even Tony Dinozzo (good looking guy with a large weapon) or Ziva (trained Mossad killer) saved anyone here.

Apparently one of the people shot was an on duty police officer. I am sure he had a gun as well.


This is the example right here.

[Ohio Joe]

1. End it... pffft...

The gun nuts will just cry even louder about how afraid they are and how the only thing that can save them is the right to kill anything that scares them. More shootings don't make them come to their senses, they only make them more paranoid and afraid.

[NYC_SKP]

3. Take all the guns away from the Navy.

I could almost support that if it would expand to the other branches, end wars, and restore that military funding to doing public works.

[hack89]

2. The Navy Yard is an office complex

full of government civilian workers. It is not an active duty military base full of combat troops - it is the ceremonial and administrative center for the U.S. Navy.

The only guns you will find there are carried by the police.

[Bennyboy]

9. How many armed guards?

at my DMV there are three. I am guessing that this place (and the news is coming out that this is so) a very very very secured place with many armed police and guards. So the place was very secure.
As secure as secure could be.


And you didn't get the Dinozzo/Ziva sarcasm?)

[Recursion]

26. The guards are civilians, surprisingly enough

Also the case for Bolling farther south, which is where DIA and the President's helicopter are.

[hack89]

78. There will be a handful of armed cops the gates and front doors

it is not an armed camp - it is an office building, not some sensitive command center like the Pentagon.

[aolwien]

15. There is a Marine Corp barracks at the Naval Yard

There are combat troops there. I wish people wouldn't comment on things about which they know absolutely nothing.

[Recursion]

23. It's four blocks away. There's an interstate between Navy Yard and 8th & I (nt)

[Lee-Lee]

36. Even if there was a Marine barracks there

The rifles would be locked in a arms room that required at least 3 different people and sets of keys and passcodes to access, if they are all in the area.

And ammunition isn't stored with the weapons but elsewhere, and that required deprecate access and normally 30 days notice to get. In an emergency maybe you can have everybody with weapons issued and ammo in a coup hours, maybe.

It isn't like the movies.

[aolwien]

40. They also have force protection agency

every military building in D.C. does.

[VanillaRhapsody]

146. Too bad people don't go to jail for at least using the same caution that the military does with

weapons...

[LiberalLoner]

179. Yes exactly, thank you for clearing this up.

[sarisataka]

50. Marines in barracks

are not armed 24/7

I wish people wouldn't comment on things about which they know absolutely nothing.

[aolwien]

54. You are telling me they couldn't be armed within a moments notice?

One of the most elite groups within the Corp. What exactly is their purpose if that is not the case?

I wish people wouldn't comment on things about which they know absolutely nothing.

[Recursion]

60. That's the band and the silent drill team

I'm not saying they aren't good Marines, but they aren't exactly doing combat training very often.

[kentauros]

79. Well, a trombone can be a deadly projectile weapon if you play it right (or wrong!)

Not to mention all those hammers and mallets the percussionists use

[Paladin]

154. A sharp slide to sixth position can nail somebody, alright..... (nt)

[aolwien]

98. If they are anything like the Army's ceremonial guard

Then they are combat ready.

[Recursion]

123. "Combat ready" is a specific term regarding training and equipment and is measured in days

it takes to deploy.

When you're talking about a question of hours or minutes, it's no longer "readiness" but "posture", and the Marines at 8th & I are almost never in a warfighting posture.

[Duckhunter935]

126. correct

[LiberalLoner]

180. Yup

[Lee-Lee]

69. Yes

If you have ever been involved with how the military handles or secures weapons, you would understand.

A typical setup is like this. The rifles are locked in racks that are bolted or chained down. These are locked in a metal cage. These are inside a large vault with 2 combinations, one to the door and one for the alarm.

No one person knows both the door and alarm combination for security reasons. Additionally the keys to those cages and locked racks are stored in a safe in another office, usually the commander or XO's, so that is a third combination.

In ideal times if all people are present to unlock the safe, get the keys, open the vault, turn off the alarm, open the cage, unlock every rack, then issue is 15-20 minutes. If you don't have a person that knows any one of the combinations or codes, it doesn't work.

It takes deliberate planning to open and issue weapons, by design.

[MH1]

101. "It takes deliberate planning to open and issue weapons, by design."

They don't easily give weapons to people who are trained and disciplined to use them and have encountered some level of background check.

And that is for a reason.

(former military, here. Obviously not Marine or I wouldn't say former. )

[Lee-Lee]

110. Actually

It is far more about keeping accountability of the items that the commander will be in deep trouble if he loses track of.

That is why the Night Vision is kept the same way, even though you can buy it on amazon too.

[X_Digger]

119. Yup, there was another crackdown on how things get issued after the Clinton base closure report..

.. and how that highlighted how much stuff 'goes missing'.

Cases of ammo with the DOI invoices still at the bottom showing up at gun shows was rather telling..

[MH1]

139. I was in a technical field, and it was easier to check out expensive tech equipment than an M-16.

Sure it was kept under lock and key too, but not nearly as regimented as you described for weapons. I concur with that description, by the way. However if I recall correctly, the armorers had procedures and drills to make sure they could open the armory quickly if needed. but that was overseas or near a border. I wasn't stationed in VA or DC. But I would think those procedures would be in place in DC. Still it would take many minutes to issue the alert and get things rolling.

Point being, I'm not sure the commander worrying about getting their hand smacked (and bad boy letter in file) for losing equipment is the only reason for the elaborate regimen for issuing weapons.

[Recursion]

72. It takes about an hour and a half for an infantry company to draw weapons

And that's if everybody does what they're supposed to do and the armorer is having a good day.

[sarisataka]

73. Yes, that is exactly what I am telling you

8th & I has many ceremonial duties. In DC they have many more things to do than guard stuff. They do also serve at Camp David where a certain number are armed on duty with another number on quick readiness. They can become armed quickly.

I suggest you consider my avatar before telling me what elite USMC groups do. BTW the Gulf War was the first combat deployment of Marine Barracks, Washington in over a century- WW1, WW2, Korea, Viet Nam... They did not participate as a unit but remained in Washington.

[Recursion]

80. Plus there's the whole posse comitatus problem

The Marines at 8th & I can't legally just go stop a shooting out in the streets.

[sarisataka]

88. I was never stationed in DC

but I assume Navy Yard is federal property. A good argument could be made that they would be allowed there.

The only reason I could see for taking such a step would be if there was and extended siege against barricaded gunmen. Law enforcement is not their primary, or any other level, mission and while they could be armed and on scene quickly by military standards there are many groups who could be there hours sooner.

[Recursion]

96. It's a full-fledged Naval Installation

Now, what Colonel is going to give an order to send an armed platoon of Marines down 8th St SE? That's a disaster waiting to happen...

[aolwien]

89. Nevermind

There is no point

[Recursion]

93. Seriously: it takes an infantry company about 90 minutes to draw weapons

I think you're vastly underestimating how many checks and re-checks there are on weapons custody at all times.

[prefunk]

102. That person has ZERO knowledge about how the Military functions on a daily basis.

[aolwien]

103. So this mighty military force that we have

is only as good as the renta-a-cops that guard them and in this case don't guard them.

[Duckhunter935]

111. They are not to

fight in the states. Deployed and with ammo yes. In the states they may not even be assigned weapons. Ammo is also not stored there but at an ammo supply point miles away. When I was an instructor we were not assigned weapons.

[Recursion]

113. Navy Yard isn't even controlled access for the most part; there's a public museum there.

But, yes, I am saying base security in the DC area could and should be much, much better. I said it when I was stationed there, and I still say it.

[pintobean]

127. You would prefer martial law?

[sarisataka]

105. To reply to your unedited post...

what makes you an expert?

How about 20 years duty, often in security forces. More than once I served as bodyguard to foreign dignitaries who, for various reasons, could not have their own BGs inside the US. Also spent time on special security details that you could figure out if you think fast...

As for the edited post:
There is no point, trying to educate people if they refuse to learn

[aolwien]

108. You just said you never have been in DC

So you don't know.

[sarisataka]

131. Um.. what don't I know...

about Washington Navy Yard, never been there but I have been around similar installations that are primarily administrative and R&D. It is reasonable to assume they have similar security in place.

about 8th & I, served along side them in the Gulf, several friends and a platoon Sergeant who did spend a tour with 8th & I.

As how someone could do this, I know very well. A couple tours as red force have given me very clear views on the strengths and weaknesses of security of military installations.
Please note I am not claiming dog and his brother should be armed, just countering the fallacy that bases are packed full of armed troops ready to go with 5 minute notice. If that was the case there would be no need for MPs.
There are a very few installations that are armed like people here imagine and most are overseas. In CONUS you could count them on one hand.

[Duckhunter935]

134. SAC in the 50's

and what they see on TV, because it must be true. All bases have Rambo walking around with the M60 and rounds wrapped around his arm.

[sarisataka]

145. You are on the right track...

there are a couple places you really do not want to trespass. As for other bases, I just remember when my wife saw a couple of different cases. She was surprised that you hardly ever see someone armed and if they are carrying an M-16 they often don't have ammunition.

Sadly, once a hole in security is found nothing really happens to fix it. Officers don't want a bad FitRep due to not having proper security of their command so any issues are ignored and

[prefunk]

97. Yes, that is exactly what you are being told, and it is exactly right.

[LiberalLoner]

181. 2nd

[hack89]

74. The Marine Barracks is at 8th and I, north of the Navy Yard on the other side of I-695

and they do not have a quick reaction force.

[Recursion]

82. Did they re-sign that as 695?

They'd been talking about that for years.

[hack89]

86. It would appear so according to the almighty Google.

https://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&channel=rcs&q=8th+and+I+Streets,+Southeas&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x89b7b9ccee6c7647:0x123f6457f29f48e2,8th+St+SE+%26+I+St+SE,+Washington,+D.C.,+DC+20003&gl=us&ei=rh03UuO_GOTP2AWW_4DYAg&ved=0CC0Q8gEwAA

[Recursion]

91. Probably part of the Recovery & Reinvestment Act work

They certainly were doing construction there long enough...

[Cooley Hurd]

156. The NHC is located there...

Naval Historical Center, that is.

[Lee-Lee]

4. Have you ever been on a military base?

The notion that everybody on one is armed is a popular misconception driven by movies and the general disconnect society has with the military.

The reality is that all the weapons stay locked up unless you are trainibg with them, and ammunition is only issued at the range and very, very tightly controlled. And personally owned weapon are generally prohibited except in a few cases, if you live in the barracks they must be locked up in the unit arms room.

There are probably more people carrying guns in a Best Buy in NC than in a military base in DC.

I really find the notion people have that a military base is full of people running around with loaded guns 24/7 to be mystifying. Has 30 years of an all volunteer force left our nation that disconnected with reality that the only clue they have is from cheesy action movies?

[NYC_SKP]

6. But, but NCIS!!11!!

Do you NOT watch TV?

[doc03]

7. Oh come on you know there would be very heavy security on such

an installation.

[Lee-Lee]

10. Like I said, have you ever been on a base?

Security at the gate, but if you have an ID card they just look at it an wave you in.

After that, about the same police presence as a typical town.

[doc03]

18. I have been in the military I am sure there are plenty armed security

people there. Of course not everyone is armed but what ordinary city do you have to go
through a security gate to even get in. What are you trying to say everyone should be armed or what?

[Warren Stupidity]

21. Yes of course that is the point.

The fact that somebody wasn't armed to the teeth is why this tragedy happened.

[MelungeonWoman]

175. I think you have that exactly backwards.

The fact that somebody was armed to the teeth is why this tragedy happened.

[Warren Stupidity]

178. I omitted the sarcasm indicator. Poe's law applies.

[MelungeonWoman]

183. My bad. Carry on.

[Lee-Lee]

27. I am simply saying

That the claim that military based are some sort of place where everybody or even most people run around armed 24/7 is simply not true.

[doc03]

39. The original post went overboard on that point for sure, but to say

a military installation has little security is just as ridiculous. You have to have an ID and pass through a gate to even get in. If everyone has to be checked in an overly large police presence wouldn't be required.

[prefunk]

95. If you spent time in the military, then you know this to be true.

Unless there is an exercise or security measures have been heightened due to a specific threat, an ID card gets one (and their guests) on to a base. Once on-base, you should also know that with little exception, NO ONE is armed other than on-duty security forces.

[doc03]

112. So, what's your point? Arm everyone? n/t

[prefunk]

122. My point is that you are being wildly inaccurate about the facts.

And nothing more. Don't you want to be as factual and accurate as one can be when giving your opinion?

[Duckhunter935]

114. depending on post or base

you just need drivers license and proof of insurance.

[prefunk]

118. That is less common now, but not unheard of.

[Duckhunter935]

124. Fort sill is

as it is a training base and families come for ceremonies. Same with Bliss and any other training post. Most have museums open to the public.

[Recursion]

138. Why the hell would anyone willingly set foot on Ft. Sill?

Sorry; it's just that I spent a month there one weekend.

But, yeah, I think at a normal FPCON most bases just let you in with ID. They might ask what you're there for, but mostly just to tell you how to get there.

[Duckhunter935]

141. Moved ADA school here

Better than Bliss

[Recursion]

143. Good. As long as the ground is suffering.

Pound that awful place to dust...

[Duckhunter935]

144. The FA

likes to start fires also

[wercal]

133. When I was stationed at Fort Riley in the 1990's...there was no security

There was absolutely nothing stopping you from entering base. Some civilians even used it as a shortcut.

Post 9-11, there are gates, but a driver's license gets you in.

At the local Air National Guard base, they at least search your car, and call whomever you state you are there to see.

This Naval Yard looks like a big building...probably security at the entrances...my guess (wild speculation) would be that somebody who worked there every day did the shooting.

[Duckhunter935]

137. That is how Bliss was

Open post no gates, changed in the 90's

[wercal]

169. Duckhunter....Bliss...ADA....I get it now.

[VanillaRhapsody]

148. I would not go that far....

having lived on them.....its a bit more than in the civilian world....just sayin.

[Recursion]

37. Navy Yard? No. It's a museum and an office complex

There's more security at the ballpark next door. It's got civilian guards at the traffic gates and IIRC some SPs (Navy version of MPs) at the building entrance

[doc03]

44. Does an ordinary town have armed guards and gates at the entrance and

armed guards at building entrances? So your point is if everyone was packing heat it wouldn't happen?

[Recursion]

51. Well being in the city with the strongest gun control laws in the nation didn't prevent it

Oh... here's an idea! How about we avoid simplistic bromides, at least while I'm waiting to find out if anybody I worked with was shot? Kthxbai.

[doc03]

59. He could have obtained the gun inside of the installation

perhaps. He could be a person authorized to have a gun that just went wacko.

[Recursion]

66. Only if they've installed an arsenal in the past few years

Then again there may have been one in the places I didn't have clearance to go.

So, yes, that's possible.

[Warren Stupidity]

185. Naval Sea Systems Command Headquarters.

Your claim is that the Naval Sea Systems Command Headquarters is not a secure site? I didn't know that. It does indeed have a museum. It also has numerous classified operations. I suppose those are not secure either. Interesting. I learn stuff from our gungeoneers all the time, especially after some nut(s) go on a rampage.

[AngryAmish]

49. Ft Hood shooter had to be shot by local cop

No guns on base.

[NuclearDem]

115. Wasn't so at Offutt.

Security forces carrying M9s at the gates, but at the entrances to wing/squadron HQs and even at STRATCOM HQ, nothing. Arms are very tightly controlled at the SecFor buildings on these bases.

SCIFs are very much the same way, which it seems these buildings were. No armed presence there.

[Bennyboy]

14. Many times....

My group of friends are all retired military. *AF mostly)

And to get on the base you had to go past armed guards the gate. Then there are tons and tons of MP roving around. I ahve to imagine that there were many many many armed guards throughout the complex as well. At least if I have to pass them to go to DMV or any State building I imagine that this place also has many armed guards.

2 cops were shot here. One sounds like he may not have been armed by his job description, but that is only conjecture.

let's face it, there were a ton of guns here and they helped not at all. 2 cops, 10 victims.

[Lee-Lee]

20. And an ID card gets you right through the gate

And I have also been on lots of bases, as a Soldier, an have never seen "tons and tons" of MP's.

MP manpower on a post is generally equal to what a typical city of the same size is.

Your assertion a military base is a a super heavily armed place is simply wrong. Once past the gates, that once again are easy to get through with an ID card, if anything, it is less heavily armed.

If you made your claim out of general ignorance or as an intentional lie, who knows. But your painting of a Navy base as a heavily armed place in your original post is flatly false, as replies by me and a lot of other people here with actual experience are telling you.

[Hoyt]

33. Can debate all day about security at the base. Let's talk about the killer with a gun that is there.

Gungeoneer types love to throw the discussion off track to protect their access to more guns.

[Recursion]

55. Impossible. He's in DC. He couldn't have had a gun

That's illegal.

[VanillaRhapsody]

149. Not in Virginia they aren't...

in Chicago 20% of all confiscated guns come from the same store just outside of the city limits...

[sarisataka]

62. The discussion is about base security

The claim is that "look this happened where every single person is armed to the teeth and you need a body cavity search to get on the base..."

We who have been in the military point out that is not true. In many ways a military base has the appearance of a regular town with a lot of people who dress alike. Yet the same 'well I imagine...", 'I have an uncle who has a friend who was in the army I think who said...' or the best- 'I saw on TV...' statements try to keep claiming that on base everyone carries a bazooka.

[X_Digger]

65. It's NCIS syndrome. Guns in desk drawers all around.

Holy shit, someone on MSNBC *just mentioned* NCIS.

*sigh*

[Nay]

151. Ain't it the truth? Honestly, TV makes people stupid. I have always thought it should be outlawed if

only for that reason. Jeezus.

[prefunk]

90. Generally, only Sercurity Forces are armed on military bases, not the rank and file.

Also, personal guns are not permitted to be carried on base.

[aolwien]

16. The Marines that protect the President are stationed there

You telling me they are just sitting around playing tiddly-winks? Those guys are on call 24/7

[Recursion]

29. No, they're stationed at 8th & I, four blocks away with I-295 in between

It made more sense before they put the Interstate there.

[uppityperson]

167. Being on call does not mean continuously holding a gun. Yes, they may play tiddly winks, read, watc

Watch tv or even sleep. I do not think that word means what you think it means. "on call" does not mean "on guard duty".

[Eleanors38]

24. The Ft Hood shooting was in a no-weapons-area, too.

Security had to be brought after most of the damage was done.

[kentauros]

63. Right.

And it ended nothing with regards to guns, military-style or otherwise. Thirteen people dead, and yet this shooting, Aurora, Sandy Hook, and however many others continue to take place. It's rather obvious that even the severity and overall shock still isn't enough to change anything.

[Eleanors38]

188. I wrote in the phenomenon you I.D.'d to one of my

harshest and meanest opponents on the issue of guns; particularly the likelihood that as news & entertainment blend, and as the shelf life of "big events" becomes staler faster, mass shootings can fall into the category of just another tragic occurance. This is unfortunate. But the reaction to "another mass shooting" has always been about bans and symbolic controls when efforts should be aimed at universal b.g. Checks & rapid, adequately-funded mental health care, and the transfer of incompetency findings to a common, accessible source.

New approaches which go directly to well-defined problems will open the political base for meaningful change. I hope so.

[kentauros]

190. Oh, I agree with everything you said there.

I'm probably just being typically cynical, after seeing what the true reaction to Sandy Hook became. We need to wrest that control of the public voice from the fearful fringe and back to the sane.

Unfortunately, one of our biggest hurdles is Fox News. They will never "see reason" and go for anything you propose, unless they also become targets. I don't want anyone to become a target, only that until the corporate people at the top begin to fear us even more than at the moment, nothing will change for our betterment.

[LiberalLoner]

182. Big old 2nd!!!!!

[pintobean]

5. My understanding is that it's an office building

not a warship. Even on a warship, very few Navy personnel are armed.

[Warren Stupidity]

8. And the gungeoneers are out in force 'splainin. Nt.

[Lizzie Poppet]

11. Gosh darn those pesky facts, anyway!

[friendly_iconoclast]

170. It's like confronting creationists with paleontology: generally more amusing...

...than illuminating.

[pintobean]

17. They should get underway and take the danger out to sea.

[aikoaiko]

12. "...end it once and for all." I doubt it.

Maybe we should wait to find out the facts before assuming new laws should be put in place.

[Revanchist]

13. Almost no one in the Navy is armed.

We may work on / live on floating (any flying) weapon platforms but unless you work in security, you don't have access to a firearm nor are you allowed to bring a personal one on base unless you declare it and are going directly to the armory to store it. During my 20 year career the Navy gave me a weapon capable of firing once, during boot camp for basic qualification.

[Bennyboy]

28. the amount of security on the base

two LEOs shot. Let's face it, although everyone wasn't armed, there were one hell of a lot of armed people on the base, apparently two close enough to get shot.

Right now on CNN they are interviewing a guy who, at this very facility, gave classes last year about what do with an active shooter to the personnel there. So they are thinking this all along and you know that this building, facility, was very secure..

[Recursion]

46. Seriously, you're just wrong here. I used to work there.

There's some rent-a-cops at the vehicle entrances and some Navy security at the building entrances, and that's it. This is middle and upper management (along with the occasional peon like I was), plus the Navy museum. Bolling AFB/NAS Anacostia, down the street, is somewhat more secure, but also doesn't have many guns on the installation at all (I think there's the armories of a few reserve units, but that's it). Navy Yard doesn't even have that.

[ChangeUp106]

19. We will never win the gun debate

I'm sorry but it's pretty clear, at least in the next few years, we cannot win on guns. The gun nuts are unhinged.

[get the red out]

35. Agree

It's hopeless no matter what.

[Eleanors38]

41. It might be of benefit to determine what "winning" is...

Is it some suite of gun-control/ban legislation, or policies to reduce crime and homicide?

I don't know how many "gun nuts" you think are out there, but there are likely 80,000,000+ gun owners, the vast majority of whom are everyday, non-violent citizens. Many of these take exception to the characterizations of them, and act accordingly when voting.

[LittleBlue]

22. This logic of arming society only works if

the potential victims all have their guns drawn and are ready for the gunman.

Even then, all things equal, it's about even whether you'll live or die.

It's a complete fallacy. Doesn't matter though, it's a waste of time trying to convince people about guns. They have decided.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

25. I'm sure they'll be another run on AR-15s at the gun shows now.

Because that's perfectly rational behavior from the gun enthusiasts.

[AlinPA]

173. The gun industry and NRA need thsese shootings to bump up sales.

[gopiscrap]

30. Thank you, I agree!!!

[Recursion]

31. You mean how the strictest gun control laws in the nation didn't do anything?

I'll grant it kind of cuts away at both sides' arguments: on the one hand, places with a lot of armed people aren't safer. On the other hand, laws prohibiting small easily concealed and transported things don't actually do much.

[Hayabusa]

32. An elementary school in Conneticut didn't end it.

Nothing will.

[prefunk]

34. Unfortunately, hardly anyone on a Navy base is armed.

Only the Security Police are armed. It is very unusual for US Navy Sailors to be armed at all, especially unusual to be armed while on base. So unusual that it would be accurate to say that they are never armed.


The Army guy who killed all the soldiers on Ft. Hood a few years ago was able to do so because most of the Soldiers on-base while not participating in an exercise are not armed on a daily basis.


While I understand your intention, you have used false information to support your argument.

[Recursion]

67. Particularly Navy Yard

It's fat middle aged admin chiefs and gunnys mostly...

[riverwalker]

38. at least 4 dead

.@PeteWilliamsNBC: "We believe at least four fatalities" in Washington Naval Yard shooting

[Vashta Nerada]

42. What I learned from this thread:

No one in the Navy carries guns and a Best Buy would have more people carrying than the Navy.

[Robb]

43. Which is why we're positioning Best Buy stores in the Mediterranean.

[Vashta Nerada]

45. Hahaha!

Who needs the Navy to protect you when you can have rednecks in a Best Buy protect everyone!

[Recursion]

53. There are certainly more people carrying in the Best Buy across the river than at Navy Yard

Here's something very funny: I've worked in both places. I can tell you, without any joking, that it's true.

[Vashta Nerada]

57. Post #43 sums up how I feel about that.

[oldhippie]

81. Well, I can tell you .....

... I worked my whole 40 year career on Army bases. Twelve years active duty and 28 years as an Army civilian. I retired from Fort Hood three years ago and still live in the area. I can guarantee you that there are more armed civilians in the local Walmart than there are armed guards or MPs within West Fort Hood. I worked on West Fort Hood for 15 years. Other than the guards at the gate there are maybe two MPs on the base at any given time. (I know most of them.) They are giving out speeding tickets. When I got rear ended on base once it took 45 minutes to get an MP to come over from main Fort Hood to take the report.

The only time West Fort Hood was full of guns was when Air Force One lands at the airfield, like when PBO came after the Fort Hood shooting. We were all told to stay home that day, all the MPs and Federal police were withdrawn from the area, and the Secret Service took over the whole place.

Bottom line is in a lot of places there will be more armed people in a Best Buy than a Naval facility.

[prefunk]

85. You may be surprised to know that very FEW Servicemembers are armed on a daily basis.

Only when on training exercises or deployments are they given weapons. How do you think Maj. Hasan was able to kill so many soldiers on an Army base? Because none of them were armed!

[Vashta Nerada]

135. There's a whole lot wrong with that.

[prefunk]

140. Why is that? It's a matter of logistics and security.

[Vashta Nerada]

142. You don't see it?

People are more armed in a Best Buy than on a military base.

[prefunk]

147. I'm not entirely sure that is accurate and fail to see what your point really is.

[Paladin]

47. Go into your dance, Gun Enthusiasts

To start with, favor us with yet another rendition of the "This Is What Happens In A Gun-Free Zone" tango, followed by the always popular "Our Rights Trump Your Deaths" two-step, and finish it off with the usual, prolonged, whining fugue about how The Evil Media once again didn't furnish you with an exact description of the shooter's firearms, within minutes of the incident.

Then take the rest of the day off.

[DanTex]

48. LOL at the gungeoneers insisting that a navy yard is some kind of gun free zone!

I don't think any gun nut minds will be changed by this, but at least it should end whatever slim hopes anyone might have had of finding intelligent life on planet NRA.

[Recursion]

52. It's entirely a gun-free zone. It's in DC.

A few people (the equivalent of cops) will have guns on duty. That's it. Except for people on duty, DC law applies: no carrying of any sort. I was stationed there. The briefings were frequent reminding us this.

[DanTex]

56. So it's gun-free except for the guys with guns...

[Recursion]

64. That's what "gun-free zone" means. They generally have armed guards

Like the rest of DC, they have a very few people on duty who can carry a gun, and a large number of people who can't.

[DanTex]

68. Umm... if they have "armed guards" then it's not "gun-free".

[Recursion]

70. Ah, you've discovered how illogical that phrase is, too?

Welcome to the club.

In fact, a "gun-free zone" as defined by Congress can have armed guards and police.

[DanTex]

76. In which case the point the OP is making is valid, definitional technicalities notwithstanding.

[Recursion]

84. No. Navy Yard has *very few guns per capita* compared to most of the country

Whereas OP is premised on Navy Yard having very many guns per capita compared to most of the country.

[DanTex]

92. They have armed security guards. "Good guys with guns" as Wayne would put it.

[Recursion]

94. Where have you lived that the police weren't armed?

I'm genuinely confused here.

Security and law enforcement personnel on duty carry guns on the Navy Yard. There are not very many of these people.

[DanTex]

99. Are you saying that security at the Navy Yard is weak?

I'm not sure what there is to be confused about. A mass shooting took place in a location with strong security including armed guards. So much for the theory that "good guys with guns" deter mass shooters.

[Recursion]

107. It's a fairly soft target as DC installations go

Ornamental fencing only, no blast shielding, no vehicle blocks, no permanent military sentries.

It's interesting the two ways the argument goes. Take the mass shooting at the Capitol back in '98.

Argument 1: "There were armed Capitol Police there and they couldn't stop it. Guns don't stop mass shootings."

Argument 2: "It's a gun-free zone within the the city with the strongest gun control laws in the country. Gun control doesn't stop mass shootings."

Neither is facially wrong, but I would also say neither has much constructive to offer.

[DanTex]

116. As for the gun control doesn't stop mass shootings argument...

DC's local gun laws are or course undercut by the weakness of gun laws in neighboring states.

But I think it should be pretty clear that this (and other) shootings taking place in heavily secured locations with armed guards should put the rest the theory that somehow more guns are going to reduce shootings.

[Recursion]

125. Undercut by the neighboring states *with lower gun crime rates*?

Hmm...

That said, yes, I do agree that armed guards are not a particularly good preventer of mass shootings, either.

[DanTex]

130. Neighboring states with much lower population densities.

Hmm, if only there were some kind of scientific study of this kind of thing that took into account potential confounding factors...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023661481

[Duckhunter935]

117. Just as tight as a normal

city except entry check points that rarely check contents of vehicles.

[Hoyt]

77. If it's a "gun free zone," it's because they admit that gun carriers are irrational.

There is a reason loaded guns are not allowed in gun shows, most gun stores, the NRA building (except for executive firing range), etc. -- the friggin people who would carry them are irrational.

[pintobean]

87. You usually include the word 'bigots'

Why the sudden omission?

[hack89]

121. Where are your pictures of the white RW militia guys with the guns?

you are slipping.

[Hoyt]

150. Apparently you like those photos.

[hack89]

155. I like routine. You are usually very predicable

what's different this time around?

[Hoyt]

164. People are starting to recognize the gungeoneers.

[hack89]

165. So? Not like it is a major revelation. nt

[leveymg]

58. All the guns at Ft. Hood didn't prevent that shooting, either.

There have been gun murders at US military bases in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well. Not sure what all this proves, except that arming everyone doesn't stop people from shooting each other.

[lpbk2713]

61. You might as well try to abolish Mother's Day.

Go up against the gun lobby? Good luck with that.

[Bennyboy]

71. Worker in the building jsut now on CNN

asked "What's the security like in the building"? and her response was "like an airport" then MULTIPLE LAYERS OF SECURITY. are always there. Let's face it this place was very secure. apparently top security here in building 197 C systems command.......

[Recursion]

75. In a given building, yes, there's metal detectors and security

In the Navy Yard which the buildings are in, there's not much at all.

And note that in neither the buildings nor the Yard are there very many guns.

[Bennyboy]

109. all they are talking about now is security

and this particular building was very secure with MULTIPLE LAYERS of security. And to me, and I am sure I am not wrong here, that means a lot of guns. armed gurads, metald etectors etc. Similar to entering the State Capitol say. (16 armed guards there when open in CA)

[Recursion]

120. Well, that certainly convinces me, who worked there fairly recently

There is security. There are not many armed guards. And the armed guards are not particularly deployed to stop mass shooters. I don't even think there's doctrine on that.

[Duckhunter935]

129. Yes, I am sure

you have been there and seen this, right? And when was this?

[davepc]

83. Never pass up a tragedy to push your policial agenda.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

100. Indeed. Enjoy your gun shows.

Snap up all those precious AR-15s while the NRA says you can.

[wercal]

104. In my experience (Army), US Military bases are very 'soft' targets

We didn't walk around with guns all the time. They were in an arms room, behind two locked doors, and locked into each rack.

If somebody came into our headquarters and started shooting, I would have to unlock all of these things, and go several miles to the AHA (Ammunition holding area) and convince them there was an emergency, and they needed to give me ammo....and then I would have to rapidly load rounds into magazines, drive back several miles...and be entirely too late to do anything.

Military bases are even 'softer' than many civilian places. You can be quite confident that people are completely unarmed...there are no CCW holders on base. We even had our cars searched periodically...so unlike many office buildings...nobody is even able to run to their car and get a gun.

I imagine this Naval Yard had rent-a-cop security...not Marines in a Ghillie Suit.

[former9thward]

106. You shouldn't get your "facts" from a fictional TV show.

And maybe once in your life you should go to a military base and see just how many guns are there. Very few in the hands of personnel on the base. Of course this was not even a base anyway it was a typical office complex. This is the same type of statements that were made after the Ft. Hood shootings until it was found out the shooter did it in a building where no guns were allowed.

[tiredtoo]

128. This tradgedy will make no difference

It will blow over in the next news cycle. Keep in mind the successful recall in Colorado last week. To date the NRA has a firm grip on our elected officials.
Sad to say, but this is the world we are leaving our children.

[lynne]

132. Thinking you're not familiar with the DC Navy Yard -

- the area where this occurred is an office building. We're talking secretaries, admin assistants, and number crunchers. Probably most employees are civilian. My father worked there as a civilian years ago. Hardly a gun in the place.

This is still unfolding. Number wounded/dead still conflicting as well as number of shooters. It would be nice if we could at least wait until the details are known before turning the event into a political football.

Above all, let's keep the victims and their families in our thoughts and prayers.

[Agnosticsherbet]

136. People do not go armed in a military facility, unless they are security.

People on military bases do not run around armed to the teeth.

I agree that guns don't make people safer, but your reasoning here is flawed.

[Blue Owl]

152. Perhaps in a sane world that would end it

[brewens]

153. You can't open carry at an NRA meeting? Really? Someone needs to call them on

that and demand an explanation.

[DesMoinesDem]

168. No, that's not true.

If the laws and venue allow it you can carry. If the laws or venue don't allow it you can't carry. It depends on the place, not the NRA.

[MrScorpio]

157. Bennyboy, I was stationed at the Pentagon for 7 1/2 years

Everyone at the Navy Yard isn't armed, only the civilian force protection cops, as it is on every military installation in the NCR. Troops in DC and the surrounding areas are garrisoned, not deployed and firearms aren't issued.

There are plenty of accurate descriptions of the areas and status of troops in this thread about the inability of troops, Marines at 8th and I to deal with any shooters (who would only be charged way ahead of time to protect the Commandant's residence and only if there was a predetermined warning of a creditable threat - Marines there wouldn't go on a rescue mission at the Navy Yard).

Frankly, I don't know why people are arguing in this thread.

This was an attack on unarmed civilian employees. Even if it happened at most military bases in the states (USAF bases for sure), the ONLY people responding would be cops, either military and/or civilian, not garrisoned troops and unarmed civilian employees.

[onenote]

159. The reason people are arguing

is that the people who don't have any first hand knowledge of facilities such as the Navy Yard are choosing to ignore those who do have first hand knowledge. Why would they do that?

[MrScorpio]

160. Good question.

Maybe we need a referee here.

[NickB79]

158. Just like Fort Hood, right?

Oh wait, there were virtually NO guns present except the shooter's, because military bases allow almost NO ONE to wander around with loaded guns.

Anyone with any sense of how the military operates knows you don't just go for a stroll through the yard with an M249 and a full belt slung over your shoulder.

[DesMoinesDem]

161. This embarrassingly ignorant OP: this should end it once and for all.

Making threads about topics you have absolutely no understanding of only makes a fool of yourself.

This is the example right here.

[Redford]

162. They have strict gun control in DC. How can this happen?

Oh yeah, criminals don't care what the law says.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

171. Question: What is the state directly to the west of Washington DC?

And follow up question, what do you believe to be the strength of the gun laws in said state?

[LannyDeVaney]

174. Very ill-informed

First, local laws are superseced by federal laws on a federal military base. Even if DC allowed folks to walk around with fully automatic rifles shoved up their butt that would not be allowed on a military base.

Second, using your logic, we shouldn't have any laws at all.

[dorkulon]

163. Remember when Hinkley shot Reagan

(and Brady, of course).

They were surrounded by a phalanx of exquisitely trained armed guards, yet a complete amateur with a .22 was able to empty his clip before being taken down by unarmed bystanders.

This bullshit never made sense.

[nadinbrzezinski]

166. The navy yard is not, contrary to your opinion, in a war zone

Ergo, the only people armed are Shore Patrol

[tiredtoo]

172. My View at link

http://larryjben.wordpress.com/2013/09/16/gunman-in-navy-yard-office-building-stands-his-ground/

[TeamPooka]

176. I put all blog floggers on ignore. bye

[sarisataka]

177. Good idea /nt

[Crabby Appleton]

186. Good policy nt

[pintobean]

184. The title is too stupid to bother with.

[tiredtoo]

187. Thank you for your reply

at least you are paying attention.
“The world is full of people who have never, since childhood, met an open doorway with an open mind.”
― E.B. White

[pintobean]

189. Most people look for labels

on those doors - open, or not. You provided one.