It has come to my attention that some of you don't know what war is

[Taverner]

I will explain

A war is when two nation-states reject diplomacy, and decide to settle this on the battlefield. Of course, today the battlefield is not one place, but anywhere they decide to bomb. And when these bombs go off, they usually do a lot of damage to nearby buildings. Sometimes with people in them. Innocent people. People who just want to put food on their family and get by.

Now the goal in a war is to kill enough of the enemy, who ever that is, enough of the enemy that they they call an end to the war and give the other side whatever they want.

Usually, in the case of a civil war, anywhere and any place can be a target. So this takes the whole idea of precision bombing off the table.

In Iraq, the war we supported/started ended up devolving into a civil war in which more were killed than were in the initial strike.

Make no mistake: this is a war for oil. Why else would large business interests take notice of a group of religious fundamentalists seeking to topple their government?

Anyway, expect this to get ugly fast, unless we stop it.

[truedelphi]

1. Now now, Taverner, how could

It possibly get ugly?

I imagine you are referring to how the Russian government has already dispatched their Naval carriers to the region. And that those carriers have anti ship guns that can really do damage to the vessels that are targeted.

But already some Talking Heads over at USA Today have carefully told the public that Russia is nothing to worry about! So relax. (Maybe you missed the broadcast of that discussion.)

Just because the Russians are a nation that has 1,500 nuclear weapons already prepped for launch and another 2,500 to 2,600 nuke weapons that could be prepped and launched 96 hours later doesn't mean anything much at all. (Unless of course you hate America.)


We are Number ONE. USA! USA!

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

35. if it did get ugly, turned into world war lll

what would you say that you did to stop it?

[davekriss]

39. I think you missed the sarcasm

[Cryptoad]

42. Ummmm,,,, I believe he did get the sarcasm nt

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

53. I didn't miss the sarcasm

I just posted a question.

How much effort has been put forth by oneself to stop this action.

Looking back, would you say that you tried all you were capable of to reverse the outcome?

[truedelphi]

64. WHEN CRABS ROAR - i think I may be giving up:

Started protesting in 1969. Thought I'd get us out of Vietnam (Well, we did leave Nam in '75; who knows, maybe I helped?)

Was in the streets of Madison, WI, Boulder CO, and then San Francisco. Protesting everything from nuclear power plants to the 1991 attack on the people of Iraq. Back out there in January and February and all of the Spring of 2003.

As a child I would stay awake late into the nights, as the nuns said if everyone prayed on rosary each day, it might be possible to prevent the coming nuclear nuclear war. (While another nun told us second graders that none of us live to see our 13th birthday.)

Again, who knows - maybe that rosary praying is the reason that we are all still here. (Along with all the individual actions of all the other billions of people who have dreamt of, prayed for, demanded and protested for, and above all, simply loved PEACE!

[Blue_In_AK]

92. I hear ya, truedelphi

It's been a long struggle, and it's disheartening that we still have so far to go.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

93. Yeah, i'm getting weary too.

For me it started in 1963 with civil rights, even attended the Watts Riots, then experienced about the same timeline as you.

Moved from Southern CA to a small town on the Southern Oregon Coast in 2005 and got involved in local issues and feel that it is more rewarding.

Peace be with you.

[tavalon]

127. Nothing works anymore

I'm still doing it, but it's more like rote, than with any real belief that they hear us or if they hear us, that they give a damn. They apparently are going to do what they are going to do.

Great legacy, Obama.

[HardTimes99]

106. Um, I went to the anti-war protest at the Federal Building in Los Angeles

yesterday. Does that count? I've called Maxine Waters office twice, Boxer once and Feinstein 0 (busy message both times I tried).

I'm keeping car fully gassed up, in case wife and I (and cat) have to flee LA on a moment's notice. Given that only 150-200 people were at the demo yesterday, I doubt the freeways will be jammed with hyper-aware Angelenos fleeing. So we may be able to get to Barstow or Death Valley before the Russian first- or second-strike hits.

[pinboy3niner]

118. Good for you, HardTimes99!

There's another protest at Hollywood & Highland today at 2pm:


http://www.facebook.com/events/404701396296159/permalink/407077092725256/

I can't make that one (I would have had to leave here an hour ago to make it by bus/Metrolink/subway), but I'm looking forward to meeting you at one of the upcoming actions.

[HardTimes99]

119. Wife and I are going to try to make the one today too. Having probs with pictures and Firefox, but

hope to load photos of yesterday's and today's demos soon.

[pinboy3niner]

142. CBS2 video report on today's Hollywood rally ("more than 500" there at its peak):

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/09/08/protest-planned-in-hollywood-against-possible-military-strike-against-syria/

Their online poll currently has votes against intervention leading by a mile:

Should the U.S. take military action in Syria?

No. 84.34%

Yes. 15.66%

CBS Evening News also reported on the Code Pink protest outside Sen. Feinstein's home.

[quakerboy]

146. Im sure their nuclear weapons are in just as effective as ours

Though, I hear ours are decaying fairly precipitously. Might be fun to do a mutual launch, ya know, just to check for duds, right?

[Tx4obama]

2. The Bush war was for oil. Obama is not Bush.

I am very shocked that so many folks think that nothing should be done about Assad using SARIN GAS.

Over 1000+ people died from the GAS.

How many more innocent people will have to gassed before something is done?

Image if TEN people died in The USA from SARIN GAS - our whole country would be at a stand still and everyone would be shouting from their roof tops for something to be done about it.

[Logical]

5. Why do we have to do it? n-t

[AverageJoe90]

6. Not to mention David Koch's recently admitted opposition......

If this war really *was* about oil, why did David Koch, perhaps the nastiest and greediest of all of Amercia's OIL-igarchs come out AGAINST intervention? Koch is a crook but he's admittedly a clever one: there must be something about that situation which makes him feel that it wouldn't be worth it.....

[Aerows]

145. Because it helps Exxon, which his company competes with? n/t

[AverageJoe90]

148. That's not really a problem.

Sorry, but Exxon isn't the ONLY oil company out there with Mideast oil interests, and if one company was to benefit, they all would. It really, truly doesn't matter than ONE company just *happens* to be competing with him, and in fact, this would actually likely drive him to push *harder* for such. That's what competition *does*(for a general example, remember the Cola Wars?).

And yet, instead of fighting fiercely to gain the upper hand, he's chosen to sit this one out. Is it perhaps that he feels that there are just too many risks to really gain any sort of real benefit? As I said, Koch may be a crook, but he's no idiot.

[Aerows]

149. Oh

That really isn't a problem. Really, it isn't.

I thought I had seen bad arguments before, but then I saw one like this and mourned for rational thought a little deeper.

You just explained why stirring the pot benefits everyone, and why Koch also argues against it because it would benefit him either way.

Please don't pick up a pool cue any time soon.

[AverageJoe90]

156. What I meant was, if just ONE Western oil corp. would benefit....then they *all* could.

And if that was indeed the case, wouldn't there be an energy rush of some kind, with Koch amongst those leading the charge?

And yet, he, perhaps one of the greediest and most opprotunistic oil barons in all the West, isn't planning on getting involved. That, alone, TBH, should be enough to make one doubt the "It's about oil" schtick....at least for now, anyway.

[Aerows]

158. *sigh*

You are doing good with the spin up until the end. You did good spin, though.

[AverageJoe90]

163. No spin here, fella. Just thoughts, and rather valid ones at that. nt

[Blanks]

164. David Koch is against it because Obama is for it. eom

[AverageJoe90]

165. Well, maybe, I dunno. You would think that a guy like Koch would JUMP on this, though.

After all, if the rumors are true, there'd be a lot of potential profits for the oil companies, and even if Koch does despise the Prez(which I wouldn't doubt, even for a second), you'd still think he couldn't resist beating the war drums while salivating over the latest opprotunity to enrich himself.....

I guess there IS a third possibility: maybe he's trying to save face. Maybe he's trying to rebuild his public image a little bit, so he'll just say no to this unpopular conflict and hope to gain back some respect, regardless of whether or not he really truly won't join in the fray, or if he's just hiding his true thoughts regarding the conflict.

[Dragonfli]

9. How will killing more Syrians help dead Syrians? You have yet to answer this. /nt

[Tx4obama]

12. The objective of the 'use of force' in Syria it NOT to go in and kill people...

... the objective is to go in and degrade the Syrian government's capability of launching more sarin gas missiles.

The target would be ammunition depots, aircraft, etc.

If we do NOT go in and reduce Assad's capabilities then Assad will kill more people and their blood will be on the hands of the people of the world that stood by and refused to not help.

[Dragonfli]

14. These actions will kill a great many people, you do realize this, THOSE thousands matter not?

It will escalate the conflict and effectively lend air support to rebels that are possibly worse than Assad himself.

Assad will not have an epiphany because we destroy many of his conventional weapons and stop acting evil, the things we will not target are the chemical weapons themselves and with less conventional weapons what then do YOU think he will use MORE of?

Escalation and killing thousands of civilians will make things worse and not better, I think after all the blood is on our hands you may understand at last, but not likely, you don't seem to care how much blood the US spills, it's like blood we spill is invisible to you or something.

[Cryptoad]

49. uhhh,,,

"These actions will kill a great many people, you do realize this"

you do know that!

[Dragonfli]

67. uhhh everybody knows that...

[Cryptoad]

74. Yea,,,,

I am sure you have been briefed on what is about to take place.

[Dragonfli]

80. by DESIGN bombs blow up things and kill ppl. They do not dispense condoms and chocolates

The pentagon has made a report stating that they expect high civilian casualties as well due to the proximity of most targets to residential areas, so we are not only talking about soldiers that signed up for killing or dying either (they at least choose such a possibility).

I thought most people knew what bombs do, I suppose I was wrong.

Why are you under the impression that tomahawk missiles used in military strikes DON'T kill people? That is an incredibly weird assumption for you to make, I mean really really strange. I am extremely curious as to why you suffer under such a strange delusion, please explain it as it is so unusual a belief that I simply must know. Also as a side question, what is it you think that missiles do actually do?

[Cryptoad]

83. You believe

all the Pentagon press releases?.......LMAO

I never said bombs don't kill people.... (no need for you to make up things and accuse me of saying them or implying them........ )

I said you don't know what is going to happen... and I would bet the farm that a decision about what is going to happen has not been made ,,,, yet

[Dragonfli]

84. When you interrupted I was discussing the effects of a proposed military strike!

I find it interesting how you can say I was wrong that a proposed military action involving missiles would kill people.
Now you appear to claim that you said that because we may not strike? Or are you saying something else?

You don't really make any sense, you should have simply said, "they may not strike" instead of jumping in with your confusing contradictions on the effect of a military strike.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you are tired and weren't really following the conversation you jumped into. It happens, no big deal.

You must admit however that the confusion was entirely your fault.

[Cryptoad]

85. Once again

you can say I was wrong that a proposed military action involving missiles would kill people.

I never said that you were wrong,,,,, I said you don't know what going to happen..

geez

[Dragonfli]

94. Blatantly untrue, its right above

You didn't say I didn't know what was going to happen, you said I didn't know a military action will kill people, they WILL.

Disagreeing using the statement, "you don't know that" is claiming I was wrong. I'll reproduce it at the bottom of this post and provide the link.

You should have just said, "You don't know there will be a military strike" if that's what you meant, rather than disagree that WE KNOW such an action will kill people. We both agree a military strike will kill people, several such people in fact.

Cryptoad


49. uhhh,,,

"These actions will kill a great many people, you do realize this"

you do know that!

(note - assumes "do" was a typo)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3619922

[Cryptoad]

97. Yes a typo

shame on me,,,,, should read " don't"

and as state... you don't know what actions will take place and so you don't know great numbers of people will be killed.....

this is not rocket surgery.

[HardTimes99]

113. I could actually get behind the Pentagon parasites if they bombed with

condoms and chocolates (and maybe also some champagne to complete the trifecta?

[Dragonfli]

123. I know! It's like where are their priorities? always with the red misting and the misery causing and

the blood letting and the charring of the bodies of the children in a village to "save" it. Perhaps if they engaged in more enjoyable sexual behavior in their private lives they wouldn't get so sexually aroused by orgies of death and the indiscriminate destruction of life.

We need to bomb the pentagon with chocolate, champagne and condoms! they need to refocus some of that aberrant sexual energy and seek healthier methods of achieving erections.

[99Forever]

104. I had the same exact amount of "briefing" I had...

.. in the War Pig lead up to the Idiot Son's Iraq debacle.

Who was right then, me or Dubya?

[Cryptoad]

124. So you are saying

you are a Seer who is never wrong?

[99Forever]

126. No...

... I am saying I am a Hearer that knows lies when I hear them.

PROVE ME WRONG.

[Cryptoad]

128. You jumped into a thread

about being able to know the future.

I can not see how your rhetoric has anything to do with that .

[99Forever]

129. I'll "jump into" any thread I please and state my view.

If you don't like that, then it sucks to be you.

[Cryptoad]

132. Your view you expressed has nothing to do with

what was being discussed.

[99Forever]

136. That's your opinion.

It's wrong, but it is yours.

[Cryptoad]

137. sure

[99Forever]

140. Gotta have the last word, do ya?

Go right ahead.

[Cryptoad]

141. nah,,, it seems you do,,,, LMAO

[Scootaloo]

20. Objective doesn't really fucking matter to the dead people

And it's clear you have no idea what sort of weapons are in use here.

See, Tx4obama... these chemical weapons mostly take the form of shells - mortars, artillery, you know, big bullets fired from the modern version of a cannon. Some are indeed likely missiles - but these are likely to be ground to ground missiles, since that's what's been used so far in this conflict, with a few exceptions. You don't need aircraft to deliver these weapons. Hell, you really don't need much at all, as the rebels have shown us, you can craft a perfectly good cannon using scrap metal - of which there's no shortage in Syria, after two years of shit blowing up.

It'll be interesting if we very suddenly know where all the chemical weapons are stored too, seeing as we haven't had a clue over the last thirty years. Somehow I don't think Obama's going to beat Clinton's record on that.

Let's get this through your head. BLowing up more people does not help. Even if they're Syrian soldiers, it helps nothing. The fighting continues - and will perhaps even be extended and spread by this action. If you ant to help, i've explained to you what the US can do to help.

But I don't think you want to help. I think you just want to see shit blow up, so you can tell your republican companions "SEE DEMOCRATS ARE TOUGH TOO!"

[Tx4obama]

26. You don't know what I think, know, or want. And...

And since you are being so rude, I'm done with this conversation.

[Scootaloo]

32. No, but I know what you express in your posts

And I see no reason to not be rude to someone who is using dead people as a cover for their outrage that a president's will is being defied.

[Cryptoad]

52. Personal insults ,,,

is not reasoned debate.

[Scootaloo]

69. Nor is demanding the launch of missiles for the purpose of self-aggrandizement

I work with what I'm given. I've "debated" the issue extensively, I've explained the realities of Syria with these people, I've expounded on the moral, ethical, and philosophical repercussions. I've outlined the geopolitical issues, and have, basically, done absolutely everything within my limited ability as a well-educated poster on an internet site, to deliver reason to the discussion

And they still want to kill Syrians to make Obama look better.

So. Since as I said I work with what is provided me, and that's what I have to work with, beyond my manifold efforts to engage in civil, reasonable discourse, I have opted to move into simply exposing these people as the morally-stunted hypocritical twerps that they are.

[Cryptoad]

72. No excuse,,,,,,,, nt

[Scootaloo]

75. Ah huh. When all else fails, sniffle about "tone"

There's no need to be polite and considerate to people who are exploiting the death of a thousand people to justify advocacy for killing a thousand more. Such people are to be reviled and rejected wherever their slime trails lead them.

If you're concerned about the tone I take when dealing with reprehensible people who demand death of other human beings in order for them to feel that their president can "look tough," then I suggest you put me on ignore. I won't miss your insights, and you will be able to rest easy without seeing my poor manners, hmm?

[tkmorris]

95. Try this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma

You're welcome!

[Cryptoad]

96. Thank you,,,,,,

I love the Grammar Police,,,,,,,!

[warrant46]

28. They used artillery pieces to shoot the shells

There are thousands of them.

They are hooked up to trucks and transported.

You obviously have no idea how it works.

As to many of the uninformed here they need to join up with the big Green Machine and get some Edumacation LOL

[Jackpine Radical]

77. "degrade their capability…"

such a lovely, antiseptic phrase.

[Scootaloo]

11. And over a hundred thousand have died from bullets, shrapnel, fire, collapsed buildings...

Where the fuck were you during all this, Tx4obama? Hmmm?

Your sudden concern is nothing more than your being peeved that the US' authoritah was not respected while Obama is in office. it's nothing deeper than that. For you this is just shouting at a fucking football game and the dead Syrians - the tiny handful among the greater pile that you deem worth your notice, anyway - are simply a cover for you to thump your chest and holler about what a righteous person you are.

You keep using this phrase, "do something about it," and your only solution - the only idea that can squeeze its way into your head - is that throwing missiles fixes everything. That's stupid and morally stunted. And yes, it's stupid and morally stunted when it comes from the president, too. Surprise, he can be wrong about shit, as the nation, congress, and the rest of the fucking world is trying to clue him in to on this issue.

You want to help innocent people? That's great, that's commendable, I don't expect any different. Missiles aren't how you do that. Food. Shelter. medicine, simple goddamned emotional support if you've got nothing else, that helps. You want the president to make a positive impact, well, drop him a line - We have $94 billion "set aside" at the Pentagon for a war... That's $94 billion that could be used to provide for every fucking refugee and displaced person in the middle east for thirty fucking years. I promise, years of provision and support is going to do more good for the innocent of Syria than a few days of missiles ever will.

[Tx4obama]

13. Oh please stop it with your false accusations. I've been on DU the past several years...

.... saying that Assad has committed crimes against humanity and that he 'needs to go' and that he should be tried for war crimes.

Before attacking me in the future please try to get the facts straight first.

Have a great weekend

[Scootaloo]

16. Tring Assad for war crimes is a different thing than chucking missiles at Syria

I'm not sure you realize.

[Cryptoad]

54. In which court's jurisdiction

does Assad answer to?

[Scootaloo]

62. On paper, the Hague

In reality, probably none - same as Bush, same as BLair, same as Yeltsin, same as Suharto and Pinochet and Mubarak and so, so many others.

However, it was Tx4obama who broupght up trying him for war crimes. My point is that firing missiles at Syria doesn't help. It certainly doesn't bring Assad - or anyone else in Syria, let's not pretend he's the lone villain in a cast of innocents - to justice.

[Cryptoad]

70. Toilet Paper is of no value

Your logic that that Assad is in the same boat as Bush is a fallacy.

[Scootaloo]

73. As a war criminal who will likely never face trial for the crimes?

Totally apropos comparison.

Tell me. Did tearing Saddam's head off solve Iraq's problems?

[warrant46]

31. They listen to government propaganda

And they are easily mislead like (certain 4 legged animals with white fluffy coats).

[Scootaloo]

33. ...Alpaca?

[warrant46]

36. They are cute !!

But they are smarter than these guys who more adequately represent the intelligence.

[fasttense]

58. You would be surprised how smart sheep really are.

And really willful. Don't get in their way if the feed trough is full. Sheep are a a maligned animal.

[warrant46]

68. They are smart

The bum rap they get is they tend to follow the Herd ---more for example than Cats.

It is impossible for example--- to herd Cats. Although I am sure some have tried by using horses and lassos.

[pinboy3niner]

59. Even the mean ones of "these guys" aren't much of a threat...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023619285

[warrant46]

63. Saw that nice link !!

Tan Son Nhut 68-69

[pinboy3niner]

66. Welcome home, brother

2/501 Infantry, 101st Airborne Div., I Corps '69-'70.

I also was at USARV Special Troops at Long Binh before heading to the 101st.

[warrant46]

71. You too !!

600 Photo Squadron (MAC) USAF Combat Photographer Tet 1968 Saigon

[wild bird]

88. Welcome home brother vet.

It would seem that those that are pushing the hardest for war are those that haven't had the dubious pleasure of war.

U.S. Marine Corps
3rd. Batt. 26th Marine Regiment
Khe Sanh
Quang Tri Province
Republic of Vietnam
1967-1968

[pinboy3niner]

90. Welcome home to you, too, wild bird

I know Khe Sanh was no picnic!

We did get up to Quang Tri Province once, when they wanted an airmobile bn. to stop an NVA Regiment that had crossed the DMZ on a mission to attack Quang Tri City. That was up around Cam Lo, and I still have my grid map from that operation with the DMZ boundary marked by a pink line. Some of the terrain was similar to our regular AO in and around the A Shau.

I'm glad you made it, Marine--and Semper Fi!

[wild bird]

91. Thank you. It definitely was no picnic.

We had the Buffs and Varks dropping bombs just outside our base perimeter, the Snakes doing strafing runs, mortars dropping inside the wire, very tough NVA regulars trying their best to breach the wire.
Really had my doubts about making it home alive.

Glad you made it home also Airborne.

[jtuck004]

44. Maybe it was the legacy of living through the 70's and 80's, but that one on the left

looks a little like John McCain when those people are lambasting him at the town hall. Put a pair of glasses on the one on the right and he could pass for a furry Mitch McConnell...

I bet they would do a better job in Congress.

[warrant46]

47. Yes, they certainly don't fire a few Tomahawk Missiles when they are challenged

[jtuck004]

61. Might spit at you, but that's not so bad.

[warrant46]

65. Llamas more so on the spitting

Alpacas never have spit at me. They are really laid back, unless threatened in their own mind.

[jtuck004]

89. Ha. Yeah, I know, I was just being facetious. And they are a LOT

cuter than M&M

On the plus side, they generally just shit in one spot, unlike Republicans, who shit everywhere and all over everyone.

At least that holds true for the little group whose owner sells me their poop for my garden. Alpaca poop, not Republican. (I think Republican poop is likely hazardous material anyway).

[warrant46]

99. Good One

Its refreshing to see at least a few people here still have a sense of humor.

[RetroLounge]

17. Maybe you should BOLD the word GAS too...

Because all those killed by bullet and bombs are not as dead as those GASSED.



RL

[Carolina]

18. Obomber is not Bush?

Oh my, he's doing one helluva good imitation, then

[Taverner]

21. The MIC is very interested in oil

They used countless presidents to get cheap oil

Cheap oil helps the military you know

Easier to transport those carriers if oil is cheap

---------------


Of course that oil will not last forever....

[Savannahmann]

27. If an attack was made on us.

We would be justified. As it was on Syrian People it is the business of the UN and Syria. We don't even pretend to go to the UN. We say it is useless. Of course it is if you don't use it. That's like claiming condoms don't prevent the spread of AIDS. They don't if you leave them in a drawer.

[awoke_in_2003]

29. In the last 2+ years over 100k have been killed...

and no one has said shit. Now because 1000 died due to chemical weapons we have to do something about it?

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

37. It's still about oil.

[Cryptoad]

48. Amazes me that some think the world court should slap Assad on the Wrist.

[RC]

51. I got a news flash for ya -

Conventional bombs and explosives are themselves chemical weapons. That bang, or boom, or whatever noise they make is from a very rapid chemical reaction. Anyone in the vicinity is just as dead, only you can't find as many dead bodies. They were living people, breathing people, just an instant before the loud noise, caused by the strong force that turned them into a pink mist and/or small body parts in a flash. Either way they are still dead. Those farther away from the explosion, will survive a while longer, from a few minutes to days or weeks of pain and suffering from missing body parts or man made holes in their persons. More humane than a gassing? I'm thinking not. It is all wrong.

[iamthebandfanman]

57. How dare you show compassion

for other human beings!!!

Don't you know that a war based on outright LIES and 15 year old intelligence (tho the drawing of that 'chemical' truck was pretty convincing) along with the fact it was planned by the same administration (PNAC) during the 90s when they were out of power is EXACTLY the same as whats going on in Syria !? EXACTLY!

gosh!

Why cant you be afraid of your government and consider it your enemy like all the good decent folks on DU ?
I mean, granted they would be great at single payer health care.. and energy management.. and a butt load of other things we as lefties expect and desire from our government... but you still cant trust 'em!
I mean sure, its fine if you have a bleeding heart FOR YOURSELF and your fellow Americans.. but don't you dare for anyone else!

everyone knows the meaning of being a progressive or liberal is only caring about yourself and the people directly around you!




I think later tonight Ill count all the wars we've won by doing nothing.. nothing at all... and all the people weve helped around the world by doing a whole lot of nothing.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

134. Last time I checked...

... we're NOT AT WAR with Syria -- not that an inconvenient little fact like that would give someone like you pause as to whether we should bomb them or not.

[Link Speed]

60. You are right, Obama is not Bush

but he listens to the same people.

By 'people', I am not speaking of neocons, but about those who run it all.

Anyone who truly believes that POTUS makes the call in this type of situation is either woefully uninformed or hopelessly starry-eyed or both.

The whole lot of them (all sides) are reading from the provided script(s), except (and maybe including - who knows anymore) the totally crazed.

[HardTimes99]

111. You're stating as fact what is merely unproven assertion. Shame! - nt

[bowens43]

131. yeah, keeping carrying water for the war.....sure wars are good. death is good.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

133. Your claim that Assad had anytihing to do with...

... these attacks is lame CT for which not one credible shred of evidence has yet been produced.

But don't worry, your post won't be locked or hidden, after all, you're helping corporate media promote the official BS story which will serve as the pretext for launching yet another ILLEGAL military intervention.

[RedCappedBandit]

138. How many innocent people died at the hands of the US war machine and who is going to do what abt it?

[Aerows]

144. Oh. A war over a gas pipeline through Syria is different that a war for oil

Excuse me for not giving a fuck about Exxon or Qatar getting their projected profits at the expense of American lives.

[quakerboy]

151. Imagine if 10 people died in Iraq from Sarin gas...

Would that have made the Iraq war justified?

How about if it were 5,000 killed, but only with Mustard gas instead of Sarin?

Bush had the exact same argument, only there was far more evidence to back his claim. I dont think anyone doubted Saddam would have been willing to use chemical weapons on his people or others.

Or really get esoteric and flip it completely. Say 10 people died in Iraq from the residue of Depleted Uranium shells.. Would that justify Putin to lob some missiles at the USA? Maybe some surgical strikes on a few Coast Guard bases?

Whatever your answers to those, in the current situation, the questions still remain... assuming all the horror stories we hear are true, is it our job/right/responsibility/place as non-Syrians with a record of overbearing interference in the region, and a record of destroying countries without improving them, to take it upon ourselves to step into their country and do something about it? And if it is, is adding more bombs to the situation going to be at all helpful in making the situation any better?

For me, its a pretty simple answer. The president is wrong. The answer to part 1 is no. The answer to part two is no. The answer to joining another war for any purpose other than defending the USA is no.

[Aerows]

159. It's somehow always justified if "they die over there"

And that argument never gets less sickening. It doesn't matter whose mouth it comes out of. It is a sickening damn argument.

[Cleita]

3. All wars are to make the 1% richer.

Did you watch "Vikings"? In the series the crew that raids the coast of England brings back booty and slaves. The Earl allows each viking, who actually took the risk and did the fighting, one piece of treasure from the raid. He keeps the rest for himself although he didn't lift a finger. This is how it goes.

[KittyWampus]

8. I did watch the Vikings. My recommendation is go to History Channel boards and read threads

so much was inaccurate. But it is marvelous to watch and it inspired me to learn more about the real Vikings.

[Cleita]

10. A lot of it was story telling license so much of it is inaccurate but

the fact that the most of the spoils of war go to the king is pretty much how things work.

[DJ13]

4. People who just want to put food on their family and get by.

Perfect neocon reference!

[Taverner]

22. Trying to use humor

Because in the end - all of us are in some way responsible

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

40. As I stated above, if it turns into world war lll

what will you say that you did about it?

I will be on the streets Monday, maybe sooner.

[Taverner]

98. I'll be there with you, on the streets

We have to stop this madness

[KittyWampus]

7. it's going to get ugly. Whether we intervene or not.

[another_liberal]

46. Mighty ugly . . .

It's mighty ugly already, Kitty.

[greytdemocrat]

15. Thanks!!!! nt

[whttevrr]

19. Is it not an act of war...

When one country violates another country's sovereignty with the use of explosive ordinance?

[Taverner]

23. So we have to rush to every little skirmish?

[whttevrr]

24. uh... no...

huh?

[quaker bill]

86. Yes, and your point?

[School Teacher]

25. We Know All about War in My Family

We know all about war in my family. My brother in law died in Vietnam in 1967 for a lie. We have been active in the Peace Movement for decades. We have seen this movie before where they lie the country into a lie and create false flag events to get Americans on board.

Make no mistake, this was is for oil, for protecting Israel and for the Project for the New American Century Neocons. Hilary and Bill
are on board and so are all the DLC "Democrats". They are all warmongers. People are just like ants to them, no morals at all.
Our "leaders" are just animals.

[Taverner]

30. This war is PNAC Doctrine

Neutralize and seize oil

[another_liberal]

38. Correct me if I am wrong . . .

Unless I'm mistaken, neither President nor Hillary Clinton has come out all that strongly in favor of a war on Syria. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not recall having heard anything but tepid comments from either in support of President Obama's stance on this issue.

[pinboy3niner]

43. Hillary endorsed the President's strike plan, but she has not made a statement yet

Her endorsement was relayed to the media by her aides. She may have more to say on Tuesday, though, when she makes a big speech at the Constitution Center in Philadelphia.

[another_liberal]

45. I hope she listens to the peoples' voices.

I will be crushed if she simply takes her cue from the DLC and the White House instead.

[pinboy3niner]

50. Tuesday should be interesting

You can bet the media will be all over that speech.

[another_liberal]

56. Do you know that old Chinese curse?

"May you live in interesting times."

[HardTimes99]

116. She's still trying to wash the blood of those estimated 1,000,000 Iraqis off

her hands. And all so she could look tough on National Security for her 2008 run. Egads, makes me want to

"Out, damned spot!"

[Taverner]

109. If Hillary comes out against the war, even if it's for political posturing, she so has my vote

Seriously

[another_liberal]

114. Mine as well!

It would be a decision of courage and conviction that would set her above nearly all of her contemporaries.

[Taverner]

121. Yep and I don't care if it is a calculated strategy

Stopping a war is win win

[HardTimes99]

117. Won't that smack just a bit of RFK's 'conversion of convenience' in '68? I like

RFK (a lot!), but he managed to wait to throw his hat in the ring until Gene had done the dirty work in New Hampshire.

[Taverner]

120. Thing is, RFK would have ended Vietnam

He had the contacts and the votes to do it

To quote Deng Xiao Ping "I don't care what color a cat is as long as it catches mice"

[HardTimes99]

122. I agree with you. Hell, LBJ might well have ended it if Nixon and

Kissinger hadn't stabbed him in the back in '68 (with Claire Chennault and that whole back-channel treason to Thieu). LBJ knew about it too, thanks to wiretaps on Nixon and Kissinger but chose to stay silent before the election, probably b/c he didn't want the news about the wiretaps getting out.

[wandy]

34. And then what happens if we "win".............

Let's face it, Assad isn't the nicest person you can Imagen. In fact if he did use chemical weapons he is dog barking mad.
Our new allies are even further into the blood lust crazies.
I would call this an unstable environment.
And theres chemical weapons all over the flippen place!

So, we go in and start shooting off some fireworks. Big fireworks.
That's going to make the environment more unstable.
And theres chemical weapons all over the flippen place!

How will these weapons be kept out of the wrong hands. As if their were any right hands.
Are we just going to blow the wepons up? That doesn't sound too very good.
Will this turn into a free for all where who ever gassed the most people gets to be king of the hill?
Are we going to go in and collect this stuff saying "now now children musent play with nasty toys"?

Yup, this is gonna get ugly.

[another_liberal]

41. Never believe anyone who tells you . . .

One thing I can say with no fear of being contradicted: Never believe anyone who tells you a war is going to be quick, easy or cheap. They are either lying to you outright or indulging in self-delusional, wishful thinking.

[polichick]

55. MIC spokespeople (Bush, Cheney and Co., and now Kerry and Obama) like to pretend...

that we're do-gooders all around the world, that the exceptional U.S. of A. is some kind of big brother to every other nation, looking out for the welfare of every little tyke and dear old grandma on the planet.

Americans have always liked that version of our national story, and are prone to waving flags in excitement over such do-gooder activities. The distasteful notion that we'd slaughter little tykes and dear old grandmas so that corporations can exploit resources and haul in loads of cash just doesn't fit in our story.

What's different now is a critical mass of people aren't buying the fairy tale anymore. Finally!

Now we have hope and might see some change!


edit: typo

[Pleidianfriend723]

81. yes, indeed

however, I have the sinking feeling Obama will bomb Syria, no matter how many protests and how many votes go against him in Congress.

[polichick]

82. Then he'll pay a big price because people don't believe that old story anymore...

He is looking so worn out lately - it's possible he's already paying a big price.

Not too late to turn it around though.

[Enthusiast]

100. A big PLUS ONE!

Excellent post, polichick.

"What's different now is a critical mass of people aren't buying the fairy tale anymore. Finally!"

[polichick]

101. Thanks - at least people are getting it now.

[leveymg]

102. +1

[Voice for Peace]

76. Isn't there some kind of a bomb that would just put everybody to sleep for a few days?

[RebelOne]

78. I definitely know what war is.

I was born in 1939 right before the beginning of WWII. I have lived through all the wars since.

[MisterP]

79. slight correction: a war is when two OR LESS nation-states reject diplomacy...

[quaker bill]

87. and MORE as well.

some times it is a group thing.

[Little Star]

103. Is it a war if congress doesn't declare it one? Or is it just.....

a war called something else? I thought only Congress could declare war?

[Taverner]

108. It's not a war if we don't call it such

Perhaps we can call it a "Kerfuffle"?

[Little Star]

155. lol

[truedelphi]

135. Very good point. And if Obama goes ahead with these strikes

Against Syria, while some very smart and experienced generals think it is a dumb dumb idea, what then?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/us-military-planners-dont-support-war-with-syria/2013/09/05/10a07114-15bb-11e3-be6e-dc6ae8a5b3a8_story.html

[brooklynite]

105. Congratulations -- you've joined the Sarah Palin wing of the republican Party.

"Let Allah sort it out"....because of course, ALL Muslims are evil fundamentalists, right? I mean, after watching the Tunisians and the Egyptians overthrow their dictatorial governments, the Syrians couldn't possibly want to experience democracy as well, could they? They must all want to impose religious fundamentalism...even the dead children.

[Taverner]

107. Dude, you so missed my point

But hey, start throwing around purity calls. It really does bolster your argument.

Why not just scream out, with extended finger, pointing "WIIIIIITCH!!!"

[brooklynite]

110. Your quote:

"Why else would large business interests take notice of a group of religious fundamentalists seeking to topple their government? ".

Are you suggesting that non-fundamentalists and secularists aren't involved in the fighting, and didn't start out protesting peacefully for democratic reform?

And are you suggesting that the CW victims were all fundamentalists, so we shouldn't be concerned about what the Syrian Government has done?

And if this is all about money or oil (because really, Obama is no different than Bush), why not get involved militarily a year ago...or two.

I will acknowledge there are a number of good arguments against military activity. What troubles me are the number of really bad ones I'm reading.

[Taverner]

112. I am sure they are, and in fact an Anarchist Brigade has split off

One that I might add, has much more compatibility with our own style

But I've seen this movie before, and lots of innocent people die

If you want their blood on your hands, go right ahead

[brooklynite]

115. "If you want their blood on your hands"

One thing I try to avoid is cute phrases.

I will acknowledge that there's a chance for greater or unanticipated civilian casualties if we act...if you will acknowledge that there will be additional civilian casualties at the hands of the Syrian Government if we don't.

[yawnmaster]

157. You didn't avoid it very well....

"Congratulations -- you've joined the Sarah Palin wing of the republican Party."

[tavalon]

125. How do we stop it?

I'm serious.

I've called and I will call again Monday. I will participate in any and all protests and then they will do it. It happened with Iraq and unless they change their minds, it will happen with Syria. I don't see how we stop it. I use to but with the media mostly in the pocket of the warmongers, they keep our protests away from the world's eyes and they do whatever they want.

[VanillaRhapsody]

130. what oil?

[Aerows]

150. The pipeline that is being built across Syria and will either pickup in Kirkuk

or Qatar (Exxon) and end up in Turkey to supply Europe. That oil. Hope that helps.

[VanillaRhapsody]

154. thats natural gas not oil...you got the story wrong

Russia doesn't want that natural gas pipeline to be built across Syria. Russia supplies EU with most of its oil products....thats why Russia props up Assad. Assad is preventing the natural gas pipeline..

[Aerows]

160. Oh

so you are halfway aware, as though a line of LNG is not oil. Well, honey, you caught me up in an argument. We are fighting over liquid natural gas, not oil. It's not fossil energy. It's not important then. It's not like they put that in cars, trucks and heavy equipment as fuel or anything. (which they do)

No. I'm completely wrong on this, and you are right, it is sunshine they are going to pipeline if it comes from Qatar, but it is Satan if it is from Kirkuk. I don't give a shit about Iran, and frankly, I hope the LNG comes from a kinder source, but I'm thinking we aren't going to find a kind source in the middle east. Every one of them hate women, live like they are in the dark ages and couldn't find a roll of toilet paper if their life depended on it.

It's a hellhole for human rights, and the best thing all of them could do is shut off the oil and attempt to join the 21st century minus the religious nonsense.

[VanillaRhapsody]

161. Believe me...just because I can hold my own when the shit throwing gets started

don't take that to mean I am not aware...."honey"!

Every step taken away from oil is a step in the right direction...which in this case...is a reason to oppose Russia...wouldn't an "aware" person think so?

[Aerows]

152. *crickets* *crickets* n/t

[KoKo]

139. YES...UGLY FAST! IRAQ REDUX..... I would not want to live through this

Crap or what we are doing in Afghanistan or did in Libya...or AFRICOM or YEMEN or PAKISTAN....AGAIN!

I feel like I live in the British Empire...without all the PERKS and the great MINISERIES that CAME OUT OF THAT EMPIRE...on PBS for DECADES AFTER!

I loved those Miniseries...but none of US are ever going to live like the Brits Upper Class did at that time. We are depleted and near Bankrupt from our American Empire trying to Emulate the Brits in their TIME OF GLORY...and remembering CHARLES DICKENS.

[Taverner]

153. Twenty five years from today Brits will watch shows like "Eldorado Ranch"

about the glory days of the American Empire

[davidpdx]

143. Well according to your definitions

Syria is in a civil war. There is no war between two nations at this point. I strongly believe it won't happen since Congress is going to vote down the resolution.

[Aerows]

147. I sincerely hope it does.

This looks like Vietnam 2.0, with more bloodshed and less clear objectives.

[xfundy]

162. What actually happens

is that young men, children, really, who are naturally pumped up with testosterone, as that's what happens at that time in their lives, are easily brainwashed (cuz they already think they're invincible) they're sent somewhere to play the videogames they've played their whole lives, but for real, without "replay" buttons.

And since most of them are from "useless" classes, who could possibly care? Pfft.