When Is It Appropriate And Not Appropriate To Hire Someone Based On Physical Appearance?

[LearningCurve]

Had a lively discussion recently, and the answers ranged from "Always appropriate" to "Never." Most answers were in-between, but the line kept moving as various situations were brought up. Let's just say, no clear line or consensus was reached. I'd like to receive more input.

[loli phabay]

1. depends on the job i suppose.

[David__77]

2. It makes a difference, that's for sure.

I work in a consulting profession. Physical appearance is very important. It's not always "physical attractiveness," per se. Someone could convey authority, for instance, through their appearance, and this could be positively perceived. Attractiveness is rarely a disadvantage, however. Youth, however, is looked down on in many cases - it can go both ways depending on the sector.

[loli phabay]

3. yup it all depends on what your hiring for, would you hire a morbidly obese personal trainer

Or any other millions of jobs where physical attributes are needed.

[David__77]

4. I've pondered this question a LOT.

Particularly as someone with some decision making capacity. We ban racism, sex discrimination and other types of discrimination, but we can certainly not hire someone simply because we think they don't look good. If you read the employment ads in Mexico, they say "under 35" or things like that, and are quite stark about physical attributes that are required (attractiveness). No one does that so openly in the US outside certain entertainment sectors, but I know that it factors in the decision making process. It's a part of why so many cosmetic interventions are increasingly sought after.

I don't think it's right, and I don't think that's the kind of society we should strive for. But it's going to take something momentous to change it, if it could even be fundamentally changed.

[a la izquierda]

8. Mexican ads also often look for personas "de buena presentación"

which has little to do with attractiveness and everything to do with not being "Indian." The first time I was in Mexico City, my dissertation adviser had to explain that one to me.

[HumansAndResources]

19. Their TV Networks / Film Studios Seem to Use That Criteria.

I'll never forget my first time in Mexico. I was in a hotel, turned on the Tee Vee (out of curiosity, not having one at home) and it was ALL White People. I kept looking out the window - no white people - then back at the Tee Vee - All White People.

I grew up in the South - I felt sick. I wanted to scream. Then I wanted to cry. Then I understood the CIA's support of the Elites from a new perspective - and a new angle on the current animosity towards Chavez and Morales.

[BainsBane]

39. In Brazil too

Only there it means not black.

[a la izquierda]

41. I imagine in Veracruz...

it means "not black" as well as "not Indian."

I had no idea about Brazil. Thanks for the info.

[randome]

17. The only thing that would change this is to conduct interviews without ever seeing the person.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[LearningCurve]

24. Personally, I would never have that interview

Before I hire anyone, I want them in the room. The resume gets you in the room, but not hired.

[SharonAnn]

32. Like orchestras finally had to do, having the musician play behind a curtain so the

interviewers didn't know if they were male or female, All of a sudden, women musicians were getting hired.

[Logical]

64. I agree with that. It works for that job, maybe not for Hooters. n-t

[Nevernose]

69. Some jobs are categorized as entertainment

Even when many people wouldn't consider the job entertainment.

Various forms of discrimination come up a lot in the casino industry, with jobs such as cocktail servers, bartenders, etc. Dress, appearance, body size/type: all are litigated here fairly regularly, with several cases going to the Supreme Court.

There have been a couple of articles about it in Slate in the last few months written by a law professor at UNLV (who has also litigated many cases about the subject). They were interesting, but for the life of me I can't think of the author's name.

[gvstn]

13. I always remember

We had an ice cream store that only sole high-end ice cream like Basset's and Haagen Dazs (back before these were becoming available in grocery stores). Their only other products were things like Godiva chocolates. Anyway, all their servers were very young teenagers who they all looked and dressed like something out of a fairy tale. Flawless skin, perfectly groomed, white shirts, black pants and black vest. I always thought of Hansel and Gretel when I walked up to the counter. This was back in the late 70's-80's when most kids were wearing long hair, flannel shirts, levis and before wide-spread acne medications.

Even then I realized they were portraying an ideal image totally divorced from the reality of their 1000 calorie snacks. And it worked!

[LearningCurve]

20. This was one example that came up

Or close to it, the example was would you hire someone in a fitness center who was.

[Auntie Bush]

38. Like an airline hostess?

A Bunny Club? etc.

[loli phabay]

83. all good examples

[dipsydoodle]

5. Stand in for Conan the Barbarian.

.

[Mr_Teg]

6. When it affects the job...

... it is a factor to consider.

A pretty waitress will earn more than an average or unattractive one.

A waitress with people skills will earn more than one without.

A pretty waitress with people skills will earn more than both.

One factor out of many to take into account.

[treestar]

15. I tip waiters the same

Percentage of the bill regardless of what they look like. If there are nice people I notice that.

[Mr_Teg]

27. On a conscious level...

... but I wonder if you looked at the percentages applied between the two groups how much of a difference there would be.

[treestar]

43. I barely notice that at all

I just calculate the percentage. If they gave really bad service, I mean really, really bad (I once waited tables) I might take note of that. If they were homely, I might feel sorry for them and tip them more!

[Mr_Teg]

45. Your angelic nature aside...

It is common sense that attractive people get better sales, better tips and get overall treated better.

[treestar]

50. I really don't think so

As a young and attractive woman, I was not treated nearly as nice as I am now. Some were resentful, of either sex. Others expected more than I had to give. Now I'm a harmless middle aged lady and the young people are kind to me.

In fact, only a real jerk would purposely give less of a tip to a homely waitress who gave good service. You really pay waiters for their looks? What about the men?

Not everyone is real shallow about looks. In fact you should be careful - studies have shown people are not better people because of good looks. You could get cheated somewhere.

[Mr_Teg]

80. You are obviously missing the point...

[Bay Boy]

55. But if your waitress touches you on the shoulder and...

...flirts a little bit you give her more right? Or so I've been told.

[treestar]

71. That would have to be a he, and then I'd be pretty mad

But as a female waitress I never could have done such a thing, even if I thought it would get me more $$ as a tip.

Well I was pretty innocent and would never have thought of it. But thought I was expected to deliver the food and take the orders, not flirt with the customers.

[patricia92243]

7. Physical appearance and prettiness/handsomeness are not the same. n/t

[titaniumsalute]

10. I agree

I work as a sales manager for my company. I'll honestly say that appearance is VERY important to me in the hiring process. But that doesn't mean being pretty or handsome.

Appearance, to me, is having good hygiene, dressing appropriately, have nice presentable hair, facial hair, etc. I'm the last person to talk about being handsome but when I represent my company I want to show my professionalism be presenting my appearance the best I can.

[scheming daemons]

9. Obviously in the acting and modeling industries

An actor or actress has to look the part, whatever the role calls for.

A model must fit the body type for whatever they are modeling.

An athlete, in certain sports, must have a particular body type to be successful.... Basketball centers need to be tall, jockeys need to be light, offensive lineman in football need to be big and strong. Swimmers need to be muscular and lean. Gymnasts need to have low centers of gravity.

Those are three areas where physical appearance matters.

[NightWatcher]

11. Would tattoos fall under appearance?

If I'm a dentist and there are two candidates for a hygienist job and one of them is sleeved or has neck tattoos, they wouldn't get the job.

If I own a restaurant I might not hire a tattooed person for front of the house jobs.

Some people are put off by heavily tattooed people and if my business dealt with the public in certain situations, I can see not hiring people based on some appearances.

[Bluenorthwest]

12. I recently read 'help wanted ad' from a shop I used constantly, it said 'no tattoos no piercings'

I no longer offer those jerks my custom, and it does explain why they have a very specific 'sort' of staff, often stupid but always Osmond like. Bad service is what they get from their prejudices.

[Bunnahabhain]

53. It's prejudicial

to say people that are Osmond like looking will necessarily deliver bad service.

[Logical]

57. I dislike facial, neck or full arm tattoos. Just don't like them. Looks tacky to me. It is not....

like a scar or medical issue. They choose to ink their body.

[Link Speed]

75. That's where I draw the line

But I come from an era when tats were earned and worn by vets, bikers and cons.

I won't hire outrageously pierced people, either, especially guys with those crazy hoop things in their earlobes. I had to tell one of the smartest, nicest twenty-somethings I know that his ears were the reason I couldn't hire him. I have known he and his mother for years.

[loli phabay]

16. depends i suppose on the level of tattoos and piercings etc

Also the kind of tattoos, a svaztika on the forehead and arms covered in jail tattoos would be a big no no for a lot of employers. If your selling a product or lifestyle then the sales people should look like they use or live it.

[treestar]

14. Only actors

And there could be more inclusive of less gorgeous people. Actually in more recent times they have. The talent does not necessarily track looks.

[LearningCurve]

28. What about salespeople?

An example came up of the guy "who creeps me out." The example was based on physical appearance, not actions on the part of the person. The kind of guy who "looks like a creeper" and has to deal with customers who may not be able to get past that.

[treestar]

42. I don't think there are many guys who are creepy like that, and if they are, that they want to be

in sales. Usually it is outgoing people who want to go into sales. I'd say his demeanor as opposed to his looks would be his disqualifying factor. If you find somebody is introverted, you're probably not going to hire them for sales.

[Township75]

18. I took a class last year that covered this topic. Hooters came up and the lawsuit against them

Basically it comes down to what is required for the job. Hooters doesn't have to hire male waiters. A law firm could fire an attorney for being an unshaven smelly eye soar.

[LearningCurve]

25. This one came up too

Even more specifically, Hooters doesn't have to hire flat-chested women.

[KittyWampus]

21. Question brings to mind the woman who had her boyfriend tattoo her whole face- I could see some

places shy away from hiring her (white linen restaurants) and others especially drawn to her (bars)

[closeupready]

22. From a worker's standpoint, looking good is essential.

IMO. That's why I try to keep myself in shape, dress well, mind my manners, and always be polite. Even if there is no written rule.

It is essential to always look your best.

From the employer's perspective, as others state, it depends on the job.

[panader0]

23. I work construction, and can say I have seen every kind of guy (and some women) with tats,

piercings or weird hair. My sweetheart Jeannie is the business manager for a radio station. She does the hiring, and will not consider people who might turn off potential advertisers.

[Logical]

62. Makes sense. n-t

[Marrah_G]

26. If your business is based on a certain physical appearance

Two examples:

If you are hiring hairdressers you want ones that are not slobs and that keep themselves up.

If you are hiring people for a gym, it's wise business to hire people who are fit and in shape.

[LearningCurve]

29. What about a grey area, like bartending?

Bars with attractive bartenders, tend to attract more customers and sell more drinks. Even though the product is alcohol, the person serving it can often improve sales just by being attractive.

[Marrah_G]

33. That's a tough one

You know, I am torn on this one. I can see the point about attracting more customers, but only if they are really good at their job.

You know what, I honestly just don't know.

I say that as an unattractive person who doesn't own a business.

[LearningCurve]

34. I think most people are torn on this

As a small business owner myself (also unattractive), I have to acknowledge this reality. That being said, being able to do the job is condition #1.

[JustAnotherGen]

30. Appearance

That differs from looks. Or being good looking, hot body, etc. etc.

One of my jobs during University was in cosmetics - both for Elizabeth Arden then Lancome.

I'm sorry - but a well put together older woman (55+) selling Ceramides (an old Arden product) and Renergie (Lancome) 'looks' better than a 20 year old.

I was at the Macy's Lancome counter in Bridgewater a few weeks ago - and I noticed that Lancome's regional person 'gets' it. . . you need minority women, older women, blonde haired blue eyed women to sell your products to a broad spectrum of women.

I also have a J. Jill addiction - and the one at Bridgewater has women ranging in age from 35 to I believe their late 60's - size 2 to size 20. It's a clothing line that really targets women in their mid 30's and up - and we are a little bit fluffier than 20 year olds.

A 20 year old with a hot body - I expect that when I walk into the juniors section of Lord and Taylor to 'sell' the clothes. It would be jarring for me to walk into J. Jill and see that. . . I've never seen 'that type' when I'm buying at J. Jill.

[LearningCurve]

31. Appearance indeed differs from looks

Many examples in our discussion were the advantages of hiring older for some situations, younger for others. It was interesting, as the first reactions to the topic were mostly along the lines of "That is so wrong!" As each example was considered, opinion on the issue moved considerably. No one really liked the fact that this is done more often than people realize, but no one agrued ignoring the reality of business either.

[JustAnotherGen]

35. Prior to moving to the

Finance side of the business world - Including co-ops and paid internships at agencies - I was in marketing for about 17 years. You have to give people an 'image' that reflects them -

That's why Ambercrombie and Fitch has had the issues they have had. It's foolish to not reflect those who buy your products - or to limit who represents you - because you limit who could POTENTIALLY BUY your product.

I think my company has done an excellent job (telecom but a national retailer) of showing diversity in our consumer sales force, b2b sales force, and marketing materials. I was a part of that transition for five years - and it makes a difference.

Sometimes appearance is NOT limiting. Sometimes it broadens the scope and grows the bottom line. Point blank - you needed Senior citizens AND tweens to sell the Coupe (simplest phone ever) a few years back. The parents of the children were ALSO the children of the Seniors and selling a smart phone and getting three free Coupes with grandma and grandchildren texting each other was the right image to use to the double income affluent family that needs grandma and the kids to be able to text him when she's working lately.

[madville]

36. Last company I worked for

Had a strict "no visible tattoo" and "one piercing per ear in the lower half" policy. A couple of ex-military guys had forearm tattoos, they had to wear long sleeves all year round in Florida.

[madamesilverspurs]

37. The non-profit where I worked

had pretty loose attitude on such matters. Personal cleanliness mattered, as did clothing or accessories that would not get tangled in machinery. Many workers had tats and piercings. That said, they did reject the job application submitted by a man with the words FUCK YOU tattooed across the front of his neck.

[CK_John]

40. Hiring should be done by lottery only......

[Mr_Teg]

46. Not sure if serious...

... but funny either way.

[CK_John]

47. Very serious.

[11 Bravo]

48. Damn, I hope your neurosurgeon has at least one semester of pre-med before he hits the lottery!

[Bay Boy]

59. Great response...

... I LOL'd.

[CK_John]

77. Of course to get into the lottery you must have the minimum bonfides.

[Mr_Teg]

79. Why not the best?

Why shouldn't the person with the best skills and the most experience get the job? Not to mention a personality that works well with the other people in your organization.

Good lord, it would be the end of every efficient organization.... ever... An entire work force populated by folks who just have to do "the minimum"

[CK_John]

81. You never get the best, just some bigot's perception of the best. An example Some

that worked would be the WWII draft. We ended up with a damn good armed forces by chance. Don't underestimate the collective us.

[Mr_Teg]

82. Ummm... What?

I think you are confusing the words "lottery" and "draft"

Draft means forced labor of some sort. Ladee daadee every body...

What was described in the first post was a "lottery" for employment.

IOW, an employer would have no choice in who they hired as long as they met some sort of minimum requirement.

[Capt. Obvious]

44. If you are working with others in an office environment

and more importantly meeting clients - appearance should factor in.

I work with some complete fucking slobs who should be sent home daily until a) they learn how to use an iron, and/or b) shower, and/or c) use deodorant.

[Enrique]

58. sent home for wrinkles?

[wickerwoman]

68. But where do you draw the line?

Many companies will use the same argument (keeping clients comfortable) to justify not hiring effeminant men or masculine women. Should people lose out on jobs because they have alopecia or facial birthmarks or cleft palettes or lost their hair in chemotherapy? All of those things probably will drive away some customers or at least make them uncomfortable.

There are some people that no amount of make-up, ironing, hair styling or wardrobing are going to turn into "attractive" by mainstream standards. And yet they could be much brighter, harder working and talented than better looking people (and in my experience, they almost always are). I think it's a shame and short sighted that companies miss out on the talent because of superficial bullshit like how much time and money the candidate is willing to sink into personal appearance.

[Spirochete]

49. Only thing that should make a difference

is the requirements of the job. If you had a basketball team, you would not choose Peter Dinklage as a center, for instance.

But "should" and "is" are two different things.

[ZombieHorde]

51. Appropriate in the arts.

If you are making a movie, you would not cast Morgan Freeman as a 12-year-old girl, because he does not look like a 12-year-old girl.

[PoliticAverse]

52. This is one of those topics that is likely to suffer greatly from 'social desirability bias'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_desirability_bias

[Cleita]

54. If you are an actor hired to play a part, I suppose

it's appropriate, but most of the time it should be qualifications for the job in which physical attributes should play only a minor role.

[Rex]

56. Physical appearance as in general attractiveness or what they

were wearing? Hygiene factors? Did they brush their teeth?

[LearningCurve]

65. I'll give a few examples

Someone who is overweight
Someone who is attractive vs unattractive
Someone who "looks cool"
Someone who looks creepy
Someone unusually short or tall
Race
Age
Gender

[Rex]

66. Thanks!

I believe it is always inappropriate to discriminate against people based on their race, age or gender. The other 5 examples are going to be subjective, since everyone views others from their own POV.

If someone comes in for a job interview and their fly is down...although embarrassing, I wouldn't decide hire or fire based on that. If they came in with their fly down and wearing their underwear like it was head gear...I would call security.

I also do not think you should hire a person based on their (really your idea) of attractiveness. Unless you are in the soft porn, flesh trade like HOOTERS. Which I would never be.

[LearningCurve]

67. I'll give some examples of age, race and gender

These all came out of the discussion and proved to be challenging.

RACE

Chinese Restaurant. You have applicants who are not Asian, but are qualified. However, you want to project "authenticity" so you feel inclined to staff visible personal based on whether or not people could see them as Chinese. So is it okay to hire exclusively Koreans, Thais, Japanese, Chinese, etc? Knowing you may lose business to another place that has at least the illusion of being authentic.

GENDER

A Rape Crisis Hotline. I had a few women admit that they would feel much more comfortable talking to a woman as a first contact. Some strongly so. So knowing this, do you hire a qualified man if women are available, knowing you might be turning away people from getting help?

AGE

Let's say a clothing store dealing in current fashion for teens. Knowing that a customer might not want "Grandpa's" opinion on current trends, no matter how into youth culture he might be, do you hire him or the college student?

[Rex]

72. Wow, okay you do have some tough examples.

Gonna have to really think about those first before I reply.

[LearningCurve]

74. I'm still thinking about them

So by all means, take your time.

[Enrique]

60. one factor is whether the reasons are good

are there actual business reasons or are they just favoring good-looking people and justifying it with bogus reasons?

[LittleBlue]

61. Stripper, porn star, actor

Hooters waitress, basically any position where physical appearance is key to selling the product.

[Logical]

63. Our company will not hire sales reps with visible tattoos. I agree. n-t

[Vinnie From Indy]

70. Bald models at a hair products convention?

Last edited Fri Aug 30, 2013, 07:11 PM - Edit history (1)

Horse race jockeys?

[treestar]

73. There's a "bald guyz" shampoo

or I guess more accurately, head cleaner. Bald Guys can model for that!

[Vincardog]

76. It is Appropriate To Hire Someone Based On Physical Appearance when that appearance would

Materially affect their (and implicitly your companies) performance. How many Plastic Surgeons do you think have bald, flat chested, buck toothed, obese, acme ridden receptionists?

OTOH

It is inappropriate to NOT hire someone qualified when their appearance would have no effect on either their or your companies performance. Who cares if your janitor is bald?

[LearningCurve]

78. I kind of fall somewhere in this area

The Plastic Surgeon example was a good one.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

84. Only when you're hiring someone *for their face*

Actors, models, etc.

But in general, even in jobs where being good looking will help - sales, for example - it shouldn't be legitimate to take it into account.