Syria's Assad and regime DESERVE everything they're about to get from the U.S. And the West

[Pretzel_Warrior]

Obama and team have been circumspect about getting involved in this conflict. But when the guy has just gassed thousands of his own people, he has got to go.

People who are not in positions of governance and power can enjoy the luxury of always opposing any interventions. Leaders of powerful nations do not have that luxury.

This is a horrible situation in Syria, and Assad has demonstrated amply why other countries should act to stop the slow bleed of this war where literally any action against civilians is on the table for that dictator.

It's funny to imagine what you peace purists would have said when the U.S. Was about to go to war with Germany and the concentration camps were gassing millions of Jews.

[Renew Deal]

1. How do we know he did it?

And not some other group that's looking for outside help?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

3. That will be determined in due course, but I am certain rebels don't have access to his chemical

Weapons depots.

[Renew Deal]

5. I'm not certain about anything

Didn't some Al Queda guy claim that they had access to the weapons?

And if the "rebels" did it, shouldn't we "punish" them? If the US uses the bombings to go after the weapons, that would be positive. I think Israel has already done this.

[leveymg]

14. The opposition has also used chemical weapons. And, they do have access to the crude rockets

used to carry out this attack. Sirin is not difficult to manufacture,and is essentially concentrated insecticide. Please see, http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=576699 ,and if you want a course in Sirin gas, please follow the link to the Q&A with an expert on the subject.

[HooptieWagon]

15. Both sides have chemical weapons.

And who is going to replace Assad? There are a dozen and a half rebel groups, none strong enough to establish a government. They will be fighting each other and killing civilians for many years. It will be like Afghanistan or Somalia....or like Britain when the Romans pulled out, 400 years of constant fighting. Whos going to do the nation-building, and what will be left to build upon? And what is our track-record?

[BobbyBoring]

177. That's the rub

More than anything else, we need another destabilized country in the ME to add to the list. Afghanistan, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, etc.

WE NEVER FUCKING LEARN!

[City Lights]

131. You're "certain?"

How are you certain? What access to information do you have?

[hobbit709]

158. Sarin and other gases are relatively easy to make.

So don't bet on just on side doing it.

[MNBrewer]

174. That will be determined in due course but the WAR MUST HAPPEN NOW??????

is that what you're saying?

[awoke_in_2003]

197. Shoot first, ask questions later. nt

[leveymg]

10. The weight of evidence points in the other direction, toward a particularly terrible provocation

by someone who wanted to spark direct western military intervention.

The worst thing we could do is reward the wrong party for relying upon our seemingly endless capacity for gullability or aggression under false pretenses.

[bhikkhu]

19. There is no reliable weight of evidence that I've seen

...just a variety of conflicting narratives, and each one is backed by different motives.

I hate this stage in a thing, where people have to believe what they hear, and there is far too much expertise nowadays in making media-ready presentations playing to the "gut". Whether this is another bogus Iraq-type deal or not, the tactics are similar.

[leveymg]

26. In the absence of proof of who did it, and since it was obviously not in the interest of Assad to do

this, my initial conclusion is look to see who benefits. It isn't the regime. This is a total lose-lose for that side, which until now has played its cards with some astuteness. The Syrian Ba'ath Party has survived too long in power in the face of too many powerful enemies to be presumed either stupid or crazy. Why should they change now?

[paulk]

176. yes

that's the part of this that gets me. It makes absolutely no sense for the Assad regime to do this. It makes a lot of sense for someone who wants to bring the west in to do this. Occam's razor...

The rush to judgement from Kerry and the Obama administration is disturbing, to say the least.

[kelliekat44]

67. Maybe you should use Wikipedia for your info as some here do? nt

[DevonRex]

97. Anybody who believes Assad is the USA's puppet should start with simple

recent history. Wikipedia and all the sources it lists for the section on Russia-Syria relations are way too advanced for them. No matter how you slice it, saying Assad was EVER our puppet was fucking hilariously silly.

It's just too fucking bad if you don't like it. But the proof is in the HISTORY of who Syria is allied with - politically, economically, militarily. It ain't the USA.

[AngryAmish]

141. Aluminum tubes!!!

[cthulu2016]

2. Unrec. The holocaust exploitation is less than classy.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

4. No. It is precisely on point.

[Gravitycollapse]

11. No, it's really not.

As the circumstances behind the invasion of much of the European continent by the genocidal "Thousand Year Reich" are so different as to be essentially incomparable with a civil war in Syria that has gone to the dogs.

RAH RAH RAH WAR WAR WAR RAH RAH RAH

[The Straight Story]

41. To be fair

It did not happen all at once or overnight. And the US and others have been criticized for not acting early (in any manner of ways).

Over 100,000 dead so far, 1 million children are refugees, and no real end in sight.

I guess if we wait 6 more years to do anything the numbers might approach those of ww2 (not counting the many millions of soviets who were killed).

How many times have I heard "If I could go back in time to stop X I would" well, we learn from history --- let me ask you this in a rather blunt way. If Syria was using chemical weapons on jewish settlements there would it change your mind at all? Or should we just remember the past for one group and not apply it others?

[HardTimes99]

46. Oh please. You and the OP are going to compare an internal civil war inside Syria with the

Holocaust??? There's a term for such malarkey and I think it's called 'false equivalence'.

[The Straight Story]

48. Comparing situations and outcomes, not emotional terms

Methodology is not important to the people who are dying and being targeted.

Nor does it has to be a systematic plan ran by a mad man.

The results are millions affected, hundreds of thousands dying or dead, chemical weapons being used, and *IF* things were to heat up there and be left alone it could escalate in a way that leads to millions dying and even more wandering without a home land (aka refugees).

If we wait until after that occurs then some will say "Why didn't we do something when we could??" which is the same thing we are saying today about an earlier period in time.

I am not in a rush to go to war, but I am not in a rush to not look more deeply into and take some measures to disable the ability of certain weapons to be used if we can.

But then, these are just some brown muslims dying. I am sure if the same happened in Europe today, or Canada, people would be more willing to help out people more like us.

[HardTimes99]

57. Have you studied the Holocaust or history of Nazi Germany much? If so, you'd understand

why the comparison is so odious. After the Wannsee Conference in early 1942, the Nazi regime began to devote the entire German state apparatus and resources to the systematic genocide of Europe's Jews. This "Final Solution" (or 'endlosung') led to such absurdities as the diversion of badly needed locomotives and rolling stock needed to reinforce the German Army on the Eastern Front to transhipping Jews from various points within the Axis sphere of occupation to the killing centers of Poland. There is nothing the Assad regime has done or even allegedly done that even comes close.

Has nothing to do with skin color or ethnicity. Has everything to do with the singular nature of the Holocaust in human history. Nothing else remotely comes close, although certain developments pre-figure it (like the concentration camps the Brits developed during the First and Second Boer Wars or, arguably, Stalin's collectivization program and the resulting famines in Ukraine during the 30s).

It cheapens the sacrifice and loss of the victims of the Holocaust to compare the victims of an internal civil war to them.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

60. Systematic killing is systematic killing. Prior to this being a civil war, protesters were being

Mercilessly executed in the streets. Syrian generals deserted and joined the renews or at least fled the country rather than participate in mass genocide. My point of bringing up the holocaust is to say you can even find intellectuals in salons of Washington Dc who wanted peace at any price. Millions died because of that purist stance, and I have been antiwar my whole life. Watching invasion of Iraq made me physically sick to my stomach.

This is on par with Bosnia, Kosovo, and Rwanda.

[HardTimes99]

72. You're being disingenuous in the extreme about your point in bringing up the Holocaust. This is

NOt on a par with Bosnia, Kosovo or Rwanda (or the Holocaust), and you insult the memory of the victims of those afore-mentioned genocides with your obnoxious and odious false equivalences.

You bring up the Holocaust to try to smear those of us opposed to involvement in a Syrian civil war with anti-semtism by association. It's a shameful and despicable tactic, suitable perhaps to Joseph McCarthy and his ilk, but not to DU or the free eschange of ideas.

[MNBrewer]

191. You said it was "systematic killing". Which facility were the victims shipped to...

in order to be gassed?

[The Straight Story]

63. Yes, I have. Which is why we should pay attention here. Who does Syria hate?

Like many in the ME they are not too fond of Israel.

And if they are willing to use such weapons on their own rebels what is to prevent them from doing what some other countries in that region want to do and expanding to what they see as a common enemy?

Why are you telling your story to the Israeli media? Do you wish to convey a message to the government in Jerusalem?

“We do it so that you bomb Assad’s palace,” Amar quips. “But seriously now: I’m not a captive of the myth that Jews run the world and America, but Israel does have power and influence. We are engaged in a public relations campaign worldwide to put Bashar Assad on trial for crimes against humanity and for war crimes. If Israel supports the move, it would be greatly helpful.

“The Syrian opposition and Israel share a joint interest. We have no ideological hatred for Israel or for Jews. I know that’s what you think, but it’s not the case. It’s true that for years they taught us to hate Israel and fight is, but many Syrians already realized that they are being taught to hate Israel to divert attention away from the oppression in the country. We realized that Assad senior and junior educated people to hate Israel in order to stay in power; to blind us with hate for Israel so that we don’t channel our energies to the fact that we live with no freedom or future.

“This is over. People got it. Assad still has his supporters, the Alawites who depend on him, because if he falls they will fall too. Yet among other groups, and there are very diverse ethnic groups in Syria, he lost support. In the army too there are thousands of defectors by now, and they left with their weapons. They are hiding away, getting organized, and at the right moment they will act.”

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4168102,00.html

2. The Syrian regime (not the people) supports Iran, Hamas, and Hezbollah. All of these organizations are on the terrorist organizations list. All of them want to kill Americans. Syria was a part of the Axis of Evil, along with Iran and North Korea. They support nuclear arms in Iran and North Korea. This is bad news for everyone.

3. Syria allowed Hezbollah and other terrorists to cross into Iraq to kill American troops. This in itself is enough! They also provided training to these terrorist on how to attack American troops in Iraq.

4. Syria supports Iran. The highly anti-American regime in Iran has one single friend in the Middle East. That friend is Syria. If the Syrian regime is ousted, and a new regime takes over, Iran will lose it's legitimacy and power. Iran stands against our efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan. Iran stands against democracy and freedom. Iran has a nuclear weapons program. We do not want Iran to have more clout and more power in teh Middle East. A new regime in Syria is unlikely to be as friendly with Iran.

5. Syria is a sworn enemy of the United States and Israel. When our close ally and friend Mubarak was coming under pressure to resign, we quickly asked him to go. But when a sworn enemy, in Assad, comes under pressure we allow him to do as he pleases? This makes no sense and is a contradictory policy. Assad needs to go. The sooner, the better. The United States needs to have clear objectives and clear goals. We support freedom and democracy. We abhor despotism and oppression.

6. The terrorist organization Hamas has a headquarters in Damascus with the blessing of Assad. This is insane. Why harbor terrorists?

7. Syria already had a nuclear weapons program that was destroyed by Israel in a bombing raid in 2008. They have already acquired nuclear technology once, there is no doubt that they have re-acquired this technology. And are willing to use it.

8. Syria is using its army to demolish entire villages and cities. Incessant shelling, tanks, helicopter gunships, fighter jets are all being used to attack crowds of civilians chanting "Freedom, freedom, peace, peace." This is insane. Over 10,000 people have been killed (that are accounted for) and the true numbers are likely triple that figure.

http://americansyrians.com/syria/page/Why-Syria-Matters.aspx

SO you have a guy in power who hates Israel, will use chemical weapons on his own people to stay in power, and is right next door to Israel.

You think he will stop? That he will just give up power? Word is Israeli's are already stocking up on gas masks.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/26/us-israel-syria-chemical-warfare-idUSBRE97P0NP20130826

Now maybe you think he will play all nice and not try to finish what Hitler started, but I don't trust him - especially now.

[HardTimes99]

68. Oh, for Christ's sake, you're arguing that b/c Assad allegedly used CBW on his own people, nothing

will stop him from using them on Israel? Jesus, there's hysteria and then there's HYSTERIA. Israel has nuclear weapons, the only nuclear-armed power in the Middle East.

If I were disposed to conspiracy theories, I'd counter that Netanyahu and his flunkies in Mossad and the IDF pulled this stunt as a false-flag op to suck us in. The last time Israel tried to go it alone (in Lebanon), Hezbollah bloodied its nose, so it would like nothing more than to get the U.S. to do its heavy lifting in Syria. And having our proxy stage a false-flag op sure gets people's minds off the NSA's outrageous violations of Americans' First and Fourth Amendment rights, now doesn't it? You can call that a cyncial win-win, I suppose. The only losers will be the Syrian and American people.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

74. Not a big fan of Occam's Razor, are you? You just showed me everything I need to know

I'm attempting to reason with a CT.

[HardTimes99]

75. And I'm attempting to reason with someone who practices neo-McCarthyism and

the art of the genteel slur. Shameful and despicable.

[The Straight Story]

78. Well, If I were crazy I would point out the following:

Back in Feb Israel announced it was going to allow exploration in the Golan heights and licensed Genie Energy for the job.

Genie previously announced a strategic advisory board whose members provide strategic direction and council. Its members include former Vice President Dick Cheney, Michael Steinhardt, Jacob Rothschild, and Rupert Murdoch

--------------------

Now back to Assad - a crazy person does not think rationally. He is a rat backed into a corner. He obviously does not care at this point what he does (assuming, again, it was his forces that used the chemical weapons). If his regime gets into serious trouble hitting Israel could gain him sympathy and backing in the region (as well as underground funding and weapons from countries that hate Israel).

Don't underestimate desperate people in power.

[The Straight Story]

82. Report: North Korea attempted to export gas masks to Syria; shipment was seized in Turkey

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asiapacific/n-korea-tried-to-export/791566.html

And it gets more interesting.

[BobbyBoring]

180. You mean............

Just like they did on 9/11?

[bvar22]

187. Out of ALL the scenarios I've heard,

this one makes the most sense.

NONE of the Governments involved can be trusted with their Official Releases, including ours.

At this point, we would all be well served to immediately discount anything,
and be suspicious of everything.

[font size=3]Cui Bobo?[/font] is the best guide to steer by.[/font]

If I were disposed to conspiracy theories, I'd counter that Netanyahu and his flunkies in Mossad and the IDF pulled this stunt as a false-flag op to suck us in. The last time Israel tried to go it alone (in Lebanon), Hezbollah bloodied its nose, so it would like nothing more than to get the U.S. to do its heavy lifting in Syria. And having our proxy stage a false-flag op sure gets people's minds off the NSA's outrageous violations of Americans' First and Fourth Amendment rights, now doesn't it? You can call that a cyncial win-win, I suppose. The only losers will be the Syrian and American people."

-HardTimes99, ^^^

[/font]


This is one reason why a Democracy must have a transparent, open, observable, accountable Government. In times like these,
it would be nice to be able to trust the White House for leadership and support.
Unfortunately, that well has been poisoned repeatedly over the last 60 years to such an extent that only a fool would drink from it.

At this point, I would be more likely to believe a Twitter from someone sitting in the sand in Syria before I would believe anything coming out of Washington.




You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]

[truedelphi]

210. Thank you, HardTimes99

Although some folks would be glad to tag your remarks as CT or else mindless speculation, after fifty years or more of lies to get us into war, and various black op, false flags (Including the Gulf of Tonkin reports that got us into Vietnam in a very full scale way,) I for one applaud you.

[eridani]

101. Why Syria and not the Congo?

Well over a million dead in that latter conflict. Oh, of course--since we can't save the whole world, just save the parts that profit the 1%.

[The Straight Story]

102. Why not the Congo?

I agree we should do more where we can (we sure as hell have profited off enough countries and added to misery we should do something).

In the case of Syria the attention getter is the weapons being used.

It is worth noting that the UN is there in the Congo already:

A U.N. brigade tasked with neutralizing armed groups in Congo has assisted the country's army in clashes with eastern rebels on Monday, ending a brief lull in days of fighting that has killed and wounded dozens.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/26/us-congo-democratic-fighting-idUSBRE97P0UT20130826

[The Straight Story]

103. And:

he UN has opened an investigation into reports that its troops killed two Congolese civilians during protests in the eastern city of Goma, amid fighting with rebels.

Eyewitnesses told the AFP news agency the two died on Saturday when a crowd tried to storm a UN base and said troops from Uruguay had opened fire.

Uruguay has denied the allegations and blamed the Congolese police.

A new UN intervention brigade is deploying to the area to tackle rebels.

UN troops last week shelled rebel positions just outside Goma.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-23840545

[eridani]

108. So why not leave Syria to the UN? n/t

[The Straight Story]

109. As mentioned before: chemical attack, not to mention China and Russia

A need for speed. If the UN does something, quick, to take out their ability to use them again - fine.

China and Russia would probably move to block any involvement of any substance so we have to prepare to do so without a UN vote:

WASHINGTON -- The United States is preparing legal justification for the use of force against Syria with allies Britain and France that would circumvent the United Nations Security Council, where Russia and China have vowed to block any resolution authorizing military intervention in the conflict.

The US will detail its case soon, with military action possible in the coming days, sources told The Jerusalem Post on Monday

http://www.jpost.com/International/US-will-make-legal-case-for-striking-Syria-without-UN-approval-324312

If the UN was by popular vote with the ability of the major countries to veto then the UN would probably be able to be more involved.

[eridani]

112. Chemical attack by whom?

And how do you know?

[The Straight Story]

113. Well now, let us see how this goes:

1. By the assad government. According to our government they have done so. The UN is currently on the ground assessing the situation.

2. By the rebels. So far only Iran and Assad are saying this.

Choose which you think is more credible. Assad or Obama.

Now - allow me to ask you.

Ignore this and move on? What do you think is the absolute best way to deal with such an issue? Does Israel (which is a Southern neighbor to Syria) be a factor?

You have many questions and criticisms, would be interested in your solution(s) given all the information to date, the instability in the region, etc and so on.

[eridani]

118. No representative of the world's only imperial power is trustworthy

Wouldn't be surprised if this was a false flag operation by Israel.

[leftynyc]

148. Of course you wouldn't

Imagine blaming the prince of Syria - the benevolent al-Assad or the other side - the harmless kittens of al-queda - why, neither of them would harm a hair on anyone's head!!! It must be Israel!!!

There are seriously not enough moronic sarcasm smilies to portray what I'm talking about. You sound deranged.

[eridani]

200. There are not enough sarcasm smilies to represent the derangement--

--of people who think there are actually any good guys in this fight.

[leftynyc]

201. I defy you to find

one post of mine that calls for the US to get involved in that mess. Anyone who thinks either al-assad or the rebels wouldn't use chemical weapons is foolish and anyone who thinks it must be the big bad Israel is really too far gone to reason with. I'm done with you.

[The Straight Story]

114. U.N.: Chemical weapons use must be punished

U.N.: Chemical weapons use must be punished

The use chemical weapons is a crime against humanity and must be punished, United Nations chief Ban Ki-Moon told journalists Monday in Seoul, South Korea.

Washington may be preparing to take on the role of the punisher, if reports the Syrian government used poison gas against civilians are verified.

U.N. inspectors on the ground in Syria may be close to doing that.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2013/08/26/u-n-chemical-weapons-use-must-be-punished/

Germany: Syria Must Be Punished if Gas Use Confirmed
http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=153153#sthash.KGQ3Y6Kt.dpuf

Meanwhile, the British foreign secretary said the UK and its allies could launch a military intervention without the approval of the United Nations. This is because a UN resolution authorising an attack on Syria would almost certainly be blocked by Russia.
http://blogs.reuters.com/hugo-dixon/2013/08/27/hugo-dixon-west-mustnt-rush-into-syrian-conflict/

[The Straight Story]

115. And this just in over the wires:

Syrian FM says 2nd UN trip to alleged attack site delayed by disputes between rebels

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/syrian-fm-says-2nd-un-trip-alleged-attack-site-delayed-disputes-between-rebels

No other details at this time (but will keep checking with sources)

[The Straight Story]

110. Now, more on the UN in the Congo:

The United Nations Organization Stabilization Mission in the Democratic Republic of the Congo or MONUSCO (until 2010 known as United Nations Mission in the Democratic Republic of Congo or MONUC, French: Mission de l'Organisation des Nations Unies en République démocratique du Congo), is a United Nations peacekeeping force in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC) which was established by the United Nations Security Council in resolutions 1279 (1999) and 1291 (2000) of the United Nations Security Council to monitor the peace process of the Second Congo War, though much of its focus subsequently turned to the Ituri conflict, the Kivu conflict and the Dongo conflict.

The initial UN presence in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, before the passing of Resolution 1291, was a force of military observers to observe and report on the compliance on factions with the peace accords, a deployment authorised by the earlier Resolution 1258 (1999).[1]

Since 1999, about US$ 8.73 billion have been spent to fund the UN peacekeeping effort in DRC.[2] As of June 2010, the total strength of UN peacekeeping troops in DRC exceed 20,000.[2] More than thirty nations have contributed military and police personnel for peacekeeping effort,[2] with India being the single largest contributor.[3] In June 2011, it was reported that India is preparing to gradually scale back its military commitment to MONUSCO.[4]

Now the interesting part (that was from Wiki which put together many other sources):

The Security Council, condemning the continuing illicit traffic of weapons in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, decided this morning to extend and expand the arms embargo there and its related sanctions regime until 30 November 2010.

Established in 2003, the sanctions regime consists of an arms embargo against armed groups in the country that are not part of the Government’s integrated army or police units, as well as a travel ban and assets freeze on those violating the embargo, as determined in resolutions 1493 (2003), 1596 (2005), 1698 (2006), 1771 (2007), 1807 (2008) and 1857 (2008).

Unanimously adopting resolution 1896 (2009) and acting under Chapter VII of the United Nations’ Charter, the Council also expanded the mandate of its subcommittee to include the promulgation of guidelines for listing and notifying sanctioned individuals, to hold regular consultations with concerned Member States to ensure the resolution's full implementation and to specify the necessary information States should provide to fulfil notification requirements.

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2009/sc9798.doc.htm

Note the word in bold.

We also have:

According to the organisation World Without Genocide, the violence has killed as many as 5.4 million people making it the world's bloodiest conflict since World War II.

--- Now, it did not start out with 5.4 million people dying. No one said "hey, let's kill millions of people!".

Since 1996, the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC; Congo) has been embroiled in violence that has killed as many as 5.4 million people. The conflict has been the world’s bloodiest since World War II. The First and Second Congo Wars, which sparked the violence, involved multiple foreign armies and investors from Rwanda, Zimbabwe, Angola, Namibia, Chad, Libya and Sudan, among others, and has been so devastating that it is sometimes called the “African World War.”

Fighting continues in the eastern parts of the country, destroying infrastructure, causing physical and psychological damage to civilians, and creating human rights violations on a mass scale. Rape is being used as a weapon of war, and large-scale plunder and murder are also occurring as part of efforts to displace people on resource-rich land.

Today, most of the fighting is taking place in North and South Kivu, on the DRC/Rwanda border. Some fighting is political, resulting from unrest caused by Hutu refugees from the Rwandan genocide now living in DRC, while other fighting results from an international demand for natural resources. DRC has large quantities of gold, copper, diamonds, and coltan (a mineral used in cell phones), which many parties desire to control for monetary reasons. However, money from the sales of these resources has not reached average citizens. Currently the education, healthcare, legal, and road systems are in shambles.

http://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/congo

So what has the response been?

The UN’s current mission in the Democratic Republic of Congo, called MONUC, is entering its thirteenth year. MONUC is the UN’s largest and longest-lasting mission to date.

It is mandated to protect civilians and also help in the reconstruction of the country. With 18,000 people, MONUC is spread thinly across northeastern Congo and is largely unable to halt attacks. Rebels continue to kill and plunder natural resources with impunity. Some claim the rebels are supported by an international crime network stretching through Africa to Western Europe and North America.

The international community’s support for political and diplomatic efforts to end the war has been relatively consistent, but no effective steps have been taken to abide by repeated pledges to demand accountability for the war crimes and crimes against humanity that are routinely committed in Congo. United Nations Security Council and the U.N. Secretary-General have frequently denounced human rights abuses and the humanitarian disaster that the war unleashed on the local population. But they have shown little will to tackle the responsibility of occupying powers for the atrocities taking place in areas under their control, areas where the worst violence in the country took place.

On March 14, 2012, the International Criminal Court (ICC) issued a ‘guilty’ verdict against Thomas Lubanga Dyilo on charges of rape, murder, and the use of child soldiers, the first verdict for the ICC.

So if we leave Syria, with it's chemical weapons and instability internally, to JUST the UN and china/russia don't go along nothing will be done.

[eridani]

119. Of course blowing up a bunch of civilians is the best way to insure stability

Entering Syria on the side of Al Qaeda can't possibly have any good consequences.

“Christians to Beirut, Alawites to their graves!”

[The Straight Story]

120. More: R2P - Responsibility to Protect

If it comes to action, albeit limited, the British, French and Americans are likely to fall back on a number of arguments to legitimise the use of force.

Among them are the breaking of the Geneva Conventions, various treaties reacting to chemical weapons which date all the way back to 1925, and a concept known as R2P - Responsibility to Protect.

In 1999 US President Bill Clinton justified the bombing of Serbia on the ground of the moral responsibility protect large numbers of civilians.

He assembled the Nato countries to give "international cover" on what was a US-led operation.

In 2005, the UN adopted R2P as an "international norm" but there is fierce debate about whether it can be invoked without a UN Security Council resolution.

http://news.sky.com/story/1133677/syrian-crisis-morality-of-war-and-jungle-law

And it is not entering siding with Al Qaeda, it is entering to remove the ability to wage chemical war and prevent further attacks. But then, some folks are just fine with people we label Al Qaeda as being gassed. Just like some are fine labeling others potential terrorists, etc.

When you label a group and then shrug off them being gassed and claiming that stopping that action is siding with them it is rather troublesome.

[eridani]

121. Apparently the responsibility to protect doesn't apply to

--Alawites and Christians. How do you "remove the ability to wage chemical war" without one hell of a lot of collateral damage? If that actually was possible, fine--then no matter which side used the gas, no one would be able to use it again. I seriously doubt that, however. And just destroying the gas wouldn't do anything about ongoing sectarian warfare. I really don't see how intervention does anything but make that a whole lot worse.

[kelliekat44]

96. +++++1000 nt

[treestar]

122. No, it's about gassing people to death

what difference does it make whether it's a civil war or not?

[HardTimes99]

127. Well, let's see. When the U.S. picks sides in other nation's civil wars, we seem

to have a singular talent for backing the losing sides (colonial puppets in Vietnam, Northern Alliance in Afghanistan, Contras in Nicaragua, ad infinitum).

In the case of Syria, we're going to be making common cause with Al Qaida against Assad??? I thought AQ was a 'terrorist organization'. I guess not when they're 'freedom fighters' (or some such drivel).

[treestar]

182. I don't know what we are going to do, but hopefully

something, along with other nations, to stop the use of chemical weapons, no matter who is using them and no matter whom they are being used against. And that would not matter if the war was civil or between two countries.

[truedelphi]

208. Thank you!

I was beginning to think that those of us who studied some real facts about our entrance into the Second World War were few and far between.

[cali]

117. no, it couldn't be more off point as well as slimy and manipulative

You have no fucking idea about the rebel factions or the potential horrific ramifications of a U.S. military attack. NONE. ZERO.

please see my tagline.

[snooper2]

98. and nothing else?

Come on this is important

[pscot]

6. People who are in no danger of going to fight

can enjoy the luxury of sending others off to kill or die. Idealist are always full of schemes that involve other people dying to ease their tender consciences. The chance we'll make things better by intervening are rather poor. Bogus arguments from Hitler have become so trite as to be expected.

[bhikkhu]

62. Very true. Moral outrage is an easy thing if you have nothing at stake

...and can watch the proceedings on tv in perfect comfort and safety. On the other hand, the same could be said for the choice of apathy, or any other choice we make.

Based on the evidence (or lack thereof), I would say uncertainty about what to think is the most reasonable position, though the least comfortable one.

[Gravitycollapse]

7. WAR WAR WAR RAH RAH RAH WAR WAR WAR

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

8. Yep,

as long as the OP doesn't have to fight it.

[rug]

9. What exactly are they about to get? And how many Syrians will get it along with Assad and regime?

[Control-Z]

20. Yup. That should be the question.

IMHO, of course.

[Douglas Carpenter]

40. I guess he means the Christians and the Alawites are going to get the ass kicking of their life

AS the "Free Syria" slogan goes, "Christians to Beirut. Alawites to the grave." With one of the oldest Christian populations in the world thrown out on their ass and the Alawites buried in the ground - I guess supporters of this military action will be celebrating with glee.

[kelliekat44]

94. Yes, and whom does it benefit??? nt

[MNBrewer]

192. I hope they are ready, because that's who is really going to suffer when this ends badly

and it will end badly. Assad is to blame for not even trying to implement a peaceful transfer of power. But if we play a role in it, some of that blame will be ours.

[Vinnie From Indy]

12. Can only offer this in response...

[kentuck]

13. Stupid post

All you peace purists

[HardTimes99]

42. I'm a nattering nabob of negativism :) - nt

[Scootaloo]

51. I love that term, and wear it proudly still n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. So I want to know, oh great general, when are you enlisting?

It is easy to go hurray for war, any war... but a tad more measured when you have skin in the game. Been there, done that, and I did my best to stop that war ten years ago.

So when are you enlisting? Or if you are too old to serve, when are your kids going to the recruiter?

By the way, given that we had WMDs in Iraq, and damn it we were sure about it, are you sure?

I am not. If any government official, after that fuck up, tells me that the sky is blue outside my window and that is casus belli sufficient for war, I will kindly be skeptical of it, and look outside the window. But hey, we all know that we could not make that mistake twice, in a decade... nope, and we all know that the powerful never, ever need a reason to go to war to continue to enrich themselves.

We know that yes, they might have used Sarin (let's call this by it's right name). Yes, it violated serious articles of the Geneva Convention, and other international treaties. But I am still very skeptical. Put me in the group that is opposed, and that has to do with I do not trust my government, it's party independent, to tell us the truth when it comes to matters of war and peace anymore.

Expect quite a bit of pushback. And yes, when are you enlisting?

[HardTimes99]

21. Best response of this thread. OP is a chickenhawk, sounds like, and badly in need of

a serious call-out.

What an obnoxious OP, right down to hippie punching ('peace purists') and Godwin's Law triggers.

Apparently, OP is also a chickenshit, judging from how fast and hard he or she has run from his or her OP.

[LongTomH]

59. Right! Fucking! On!

Those cruise missiles may be intended for "the bad guys" (Tell me again: who are "the bad guys" in this conflict? Hmmmm?); but, they may as well be marked "To Whom It May Concern." A lot of non-combatants will get get in the way of our lethal ordinance.

[bullwinkle428]

149. It's always 'TEH AWESOME" to talk about kicking someone's ass, as long

as it's someone else's foot doing the kicking!

[HardTimes99]

17. Godwin's Law right in the OP. Whoo-hoo! Wonder what all those dead and wounded Syrian women

and children (collateral damage) will have to say to your blood lust (not to mention your support for Al Qaida, one of the groups battling Assad).

[KurtNYC]

157. Starts by embracing a Bush quote and ends with a Godwin.

George Galloway on "blood lust":

[HardTimes99]

194. That is one damning indictment. I still remember how Galloway served

a total shit sandwich to various members of the U.S. Congress who were trying to accuse him of corruption with the Oil for Food program. Those accusations pretty much died still-born after Galloway appeared before Congress and hoist them with their own petards.

[Union Scribe]

18. You sound so excited.

Got your big screen with surround sound ready to go for shock and awe time?

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

23. It'll be a welcome break from his usual activities

of playing "Call of Duty" 14 hours a day in his mother's basement.

[BobbyBoring]

184. WOW! What a reminder that is

I remember back in March of 03 watching a real shooting war on Tee Vee. It was surreal watching the columns of tanks rolling past Bedouins in their camps. Imagine what they must have thought having never seen anything like that.

I think it was that time that desensitized many in the country to the horrors of war as we didn't see any of the "Real" horrors.

I weep for my country and those who died to protect it. It's an affront to them all. I weep even more for the poor, misguided souls that died protecting the profits of the Carlyle Group, General Dynamics, Bell, etc and those that died just being in the wrong place.

If there is a hell, there must be a special place in it for those "Evil Doers" who have taken such a toll on humanity in the name of the almighty dollar.

[mrdmk]

22. Great another loser war in the Middle East!

Anybody cheerleader death and destruction need to be ashamed of themselves.

A fight, a divorce and a war all have one thing in common, there is no winning, only degrees of losing!

That is how it is...

[HardTimes99]

33. The freed slaves of the American Civil War might take issue with your sentiments, as might those

in eastern and western Europe liberated from the Nazis' tyranny and genocidal occupations.

[eridani]

105. The Civil War and WW II involved serious existential threats to the US

Everything since WW II has been imperial bullying on behalf of the 1%, and nothing else.

[enough]

24. War and violence does not happen to the "regime." It happens to the people. (nt)

[rdharma]

27. Exactly! nt

[msongs]

25. so when are you leaving for the front to join the fight lol nt

[MFrohike]

28. Wow, this is terrible

You know, that reasoning is so bad, I'm going to leave it alone. I'll content myself with pointing out that your last sentence is so badly flawed that it casts serious doubt on your conclusions. After all, if you can't the little details right, it heavily implies you can't get the big ones right, either.

[Rex]

58. Yeah funny coming from a pretzel warrior.

Kinda that ones MO.

[leftstreet]

29. 'Peace purists?' Awwww somebody has a sad n/t

[dkf]

30. Prove he did it. Otherwise I call BS.

[HardTimes99]

76. According to their logic, if you call BS you must be

anti-semitic. It's really astounding and designed to stifle the free exchange of ideas.

[dkf]

104. Why? Because you need to be a war monger to be pro-Semitic?

Is that what they said about people who didn't want to go to war in Iraq?

[Fawke Em]

166. What's even more ironic is that Arabs are also Semitic.

[Douglas Carpenter]

31. you'll see how this works out, you'll see

[Purveyor]

32. Is israel going to be helping out with this 'DESERVE everything they're about to get' operation?

[HardTimes99]

37. Bingo! Cui bono? I ask. Why does this remind me of Iraqi soldiers ripping Kuwaiti babies from

this incubators?

[Mojorabbit]

47. That was my first thought also!!! nt

[leftynyc]

150. Probably not

They'll just get the fallout and get attacked by the kittens in Syria (where both sides suck). Can we look forward to you laughing about that also?

[railsback]

34. Oh, don't listen to these humanitarian purists, who think those rights belong to them exclusively

After some strategic strikes with no American casualties, and Assad out of power, they'll just move on to the next shiny object… although, now with the Greenwald brigade reduced to releasing floor plans, I couldn't tell you what that would be. I suppose we'll have to wait for the GOP to manufacture some new outrage.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

39. I missed the "floor plans" stage of Glenn Greenwald's tripe

See what happens when I'm out of DU for a couple of days? Falling behind on all things Snowden.

[railsback]

49. Nothing to fret over. The Prez will do what's right

Iran will cry but do nothing because they're not going to risk having their nuclear power structure destroyed. Russia will complain, but they have the Olympics coming up, and won't risk losing billion$ in revenue. Hezbollah may launch some missiles into Israel, but that usually brings the same response of Israel marching in and blowing the hell out of everything.. As Bill Clinton said, just cutting off the (Iranian) tentacles is an effective strategy to minimize Iranian/Hezbollah influence/growth in the region. Assad is one of those tentacles. Cut it off.

[neverforget]

50. Humanitarian purists? Peace Purists? I've heard it all on DU now.

[railsback]

52. Yeah, you know, all those saying we shouldn't get involved. Let the death continue

because we're all about peace, love, human rights and 'freedom' for all… as long as 'all' means U.S. citizens. Screw the rest, those losers!

Sure is sickening, ain't it?

[neverforget]

55. Well then sign up! Get out there and Export some Freedom!

[railsback]

65. LoL. How many people do you think it takes to launch some cruise missiles?

100 million? Anywho, I already did my military duties for this country.

[neverforget]

66. So much easier behind a keyboard

[railsback]

70. That would seem to be the 'I got my humanitarian rights, the rest can go to Hell' meme

[neverforget]

77. That comes from our selective outrage at atrocities. Murder by chemical weapons BAD!

Murder by guns, artillery, etc. Meh.

The first 70,000 people didn't matter. It was the 350 killed by chemical weapons that mattered.

I guess our humanitarian outrage only takes 70,000 plus deaths before it gets our attention and even then, it took some unconventional weapons to do it.

[railsback]

87. Certainly make the Roosevelts look bad.

But chemical weapons are taboo to most, if not all civilized nations.

[neverforget]

90. I thought war was too?

[treestar]

123. You don't get the exceptional danger of chemical weapons?

Never thought that would have to be explained. Each gun death in the US takes a person worked up enough to find a gun and shoot it at someone.

One chemical attack can kill thousands.

[neverforget]

124. no shit. I'm talking about our selective moral

outrage. 70000 plus are dead now but it's the chemical attack by whomever that has us going to attack.

If you want to be sure you get all the chemical weapons, you nerd boots on the ground to ensure that they're all destroyed. Bombing from the air is a feel good measure.

[treestar]

183. They are separate issues

I would be in favor of gun control. But even one not in favor could be taking the position individual Americans should be able to have guns for self defense or recreation while at the same time no one in any part of the world should be killed with chemical weapons. I don't see a moral inconsistency with that.

[HardTimes99]

79. Why do you support Al Qaida? You're either with Assad or you're with Al Qaida - nt

[railsback]

81. So.. um… now Al Qaeda is a threat?

What happened to the 'war on terrorism is a sham' meme?

Do you even know the manpower of al Nusra, or where they're located?

[HardTimes99]

83. If you oppose Assad, you're making common cause with those we used to

designate 'terrorists'. Of course, the Orwellian world we now inhabit has groups like AQ as 'terrorists' only until they become 'freedom fighters'.

Try to keep up. AQ is one of the groups fighting against Assad in Syria. So if you oppose Syria, you support AQ.

Why do you support AQ?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

84. I see you have no problem with false choice logical fallacies.

[HardTimes99]

85. Loving Al Qaida, are we? - nt

[railsback]

91. So, you don't know the manpower of al Nusra, nor do you know where they are

but somehow, that 2% of the opposition forces is somehow taking over Syria.

I'll have to put on my dunce cap to decipher this one. Heading over to FOXNation..

[eridani]

106. As opposed to the people cheering the obliteration of Alawites by the rebels

--and the ethic cleansing of the Christians.

[Marr]

139. I know-- it's stunning. But then again, it's coming from the same 20

people who always have the administration's daily talking points on their lips.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

35. No.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Oh and this needs another response

It's funny to imagine what you peace purists would have said when the U.S. Was about to go to war with Germany and the concentration camps were gassing millions of Jews.

So let me introduce some nuance that you surely do not know

In January 1944, after learning from Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau, Jr. that the State
Department was obstructing rescue efforts, Roosevelt established the War Refugee Board to
coordinate governmental and private efforts to rescue those who might still be saved. The
Board is credited with saving at least 200,000 Jews. Critics argue that if FDR had acted earlier,
and more boldly, even more lives could have been saved.

http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/archives/pdfs/holocaust.pdf

Morgenthau wanted more than what the allies did to Germany by the way. He wanted the full and utter destruction of the industrial base in the Rhine.

You might want to check this

In “FDR and the Jews,” Richard Breitman and Allan J. Lichtman, professors at American University, contend that Roosevelt hardly did everything he could. But they maintain that his overall record — several hundred thousand Jews saved, some of them thanks to little-known initiatives — exceeds that of any subsequent president in responding to genocide in the midst of fierce domestic political opposition.

“The consensus among the public is that Roosevelt really failed,” Mr. Breitman said in a recent interview. “In fact, he had fairly limited options.”

Such statements, backed up by footnotes to hundreds of primary documents (some cited here for the first time), are unlikely to satisfy Roosevelt’s fiercest critics. Even before the book’s March 19 release, the David S. Wyman Institute for Holocaust Studies, a research organization in Washington, has circulated a detailed rebuttal, as well as a rival book, “FDR and the Holocaust: A Breach of Faith,” zeroing in on what it characterizes as Roosevelt’s personal desire to limit Jewish immigration to the United States.

But some leading Holocaust historians welcome “FDR and the Jews” for remaining dispassionate in a debate too often marked by anger and accusation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/09/books/book-tries-for-balanced-view-on-roosevelt-and-jews.html?pagewanted=all

Moreover his policies and refugee issues BEFORE the war were horrific, and I personally know one Holocaust Survivor who was denied entry to the US in 1939. You might want to read on the Ship of the Damned.

Oh and here is more on the issue...

This accusation of immense moral failure — or indifference — is now being addressed by a new book, “FDR and the Jews,” by Richard Breitman and Allan J. Lichtman. It sets out to find a middle ground and instead makes things worse. It is a portrait of a president who, in the authors’ own words, “did not forthrightly inform the American people of Hitler’s grisly ‘Final Solution’ or respond decisively to his crimes.” This is a Roosevelt who almost always had a more pressing political concern — American isolationism, American anti-Semitism, a fear and hatred of immigrants — and who stayed mum while a bill to allow 20,000 Jewish children into the United States died in Congress.

Roosevelt inattentively also permitted a cabal of heartless anti-Semites in the State Department to control the country’s visa policies. Desperate Jews, fleeing from the Nazis, were denied asylum in the United States. One of them was Otto Frank. His daughter Anne perished at the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp.

Both FDR and his wife, Eleanor, were genteel anti-Semites — although the president had Jewish aides and one close Jewish friend, his neighbor Henry Morgenthau Jr. Eleanor, a woman not afraid to confront her own prejudices, later became a champion of Jewish causes, but the record for the president on this score is hardly as redeeming. As late as 1943, at the Casablanca Conference, he sympathized with a French general’s observation that the Jews were overrepresented in the professions. FDR referenced the “understandable complaints which the Germans bore towards the Jews.”

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-03-11/opinions/37621772_1_fdr-american-anti-semitism-anti-semites

I would be careful of those "purist" accusations. It is obvious that you are pretty ignorant of the debate that has raged in academia (at the very least) about the role of the United States and FDR and the Holocaust.

[notadmblnd]

38. Oh yes, we must stop the slow bleed

It sounds like you and your kind won't be happy till there are very swift rivers of blood running.

I don't believe anyone has ever stopped a slow bleed by cutting the jugular vein.

Besides, we went over this the other day with your pal.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023524905

[former9thward]

43. I expect you will be joining any day now to go fight it.

Or are you just going to cheer from your keyboard?

[Bonobo]

44. There are powerful countries that do NOT bomb the fuck out of other countries.

What about them?

[MrMickeysMom]

45. Here... I have a better idea

Better you should get a series of DVD good porn every night... much better mental and manual dexterity.

[BobbyBoring]

185. +11111111111111111111111111

[TransitJohn]

53. Replace Assad with Saddam and this all sounds so familiar. eom

n/t

[Pretzel_Warrior]

54. Is U.S. Preparing invasion force? No. Using 9/11 and al queda as pretext? No.

Other than this is yet another one of those ruthless dictators supported by the U.S. And western powers for many decades, not much is the same.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Google Project for a New American Century

Oh fracks face, here you go

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Now go look for syria in there, and why it needs regime change.

In fact, I am really good at this, here you go, relevant document

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

[Pretzel_Warrior]

69. A) I found no articles on their "Syria" position and B) Obama doesn't report to them and

Has been ideologically their opposite. Compare the flush faced McCain's unseemly desire to "bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" and his virtually daily efforts to get Obama to invade Syria.

Obama is not about to follow PNAC's wet dreams. Even if peace purists want to cast him in that light, the facts just don't fit that definition.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. And C, Syria has been in the list of targets for regime change since 1998

if you chose to be that ignorant there is nothing we can do about it.

Empire and Imperial designs are independent of WHO is in the WH, or what supposed party letter is behind their name.

Anyhoo, when are you enlisting? Or if you are too old, when are your kids enlisting?

[MNBrewer]

193. independent of WHO is in the WH

Yes! Because they have bought both parties. Both serve their interests. Coke or Pepsi...bad for you either way, regardless of which flavor you prefer.

[truedelphi]

209. You pose some very good points, and you ask a very

Important question.

[nadinbrzezinski]

212. One that the OP will never ever answer

[truedelphi]

207. You also need to learn history -

We entered the war against Germany on account of Pearl Harbor.

The USA DID NOT enter World War II because of any humanitarian reason. We were attacked by the Japanese at Pearl harbor on Dec 7th 1941. Germany was an ally of the Japanese, so this caused our direct entry.

Whatever rumors there were about the mistreatment of Jewish people were not officially confirmed by our government.

If you ever have a chance to sit down and go through a whole pile of the Life Magazines preceding our entry into the war, you will find it very interesting reading. I am sure you will be surprised as to the current thinking of our media about Hitler. In the summer of 1936, Life Magazine treated one Adolph Hitler as a genius of a man, someone who had finally succeeded in uniting the German empire. (And according to Life, he was doing so in a peaceful manner.) In a centerfold of text and photos, two pages were included that detailed some of the harsh measures that were being utilized against the Jewish people. But the other six pages detailed the splendors of the German Reich, and how stunningly wonderful it all was!

During the early days of World War II, some people here in the USA found out about the German concentration camps. This knowledge came to them on account of people who had been rounded up in 1937 and then released. However, concentration camps were not, back on Dec 8th 1941, synonymous with death by gassing.

France and Germany both had concentration camps during World war 1. They were places where people believed to be strongly, or even possibly, tied into the enemy' war strategy were sent. (Much as how we had concentration amps for the Japanese during World War II.)

People lived out their lives in these camps, often serving a sentence. Back in the late seventies, I had neighbors who were German born citizens who had been held by the French until 1921. (IIRC.) Although people died in the camp due to malnutrition and to disease, most people survived.

The gassing of Jewish people did not begin until the first use of Zyklon-B gas at Auschwitz in September 3rd 1941. However, the preponderance of mass murders of Jewish people and dissidents was still done mostly by execution. People, including labor leaders and other dissidents, as well as Jews, were marched to the outskirts of their village and then shot by machine guns. Although the use of gas increased, even in 1943 people still were killed the old fashioned way. Again, Life Magazine had one or two detailed articles about this, complete with photos.

[kenny blankenship]

86. HE GASSED HIS OWN PEOPLE! HE HAD TO GO!!!

(We know all about it, because we sold him the raw materials to do it with. Earlier, we helped him target Iranians.) SO DON'T TELL US HE WAS INNOCENT!

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. And today the CIA came clean on that.

Irony.

[kenny blankenship]

93. Our up-armored, modern hypocrisy is 100% irony-proof.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. Duzzy

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

56. Maybe we need leaders who have the "luxury" to stay out of other peoples civil wars.

[jmodden]

61. Cui bono?

President Obama is being suckered by a rebel false flag operation.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

80. False flag! False flag! You CT nuts crack me up.

Since US and others have been providing nonlethal aid to rebels, it has turned the tide again..now Assad is desperate and cornered so he calls for use of chem weapons. His team KNOWS we won't invade, so in their minds it is a low risk and high reward option to demoralize rebels.

[leftynyc]

153. False flag?

You mean Doctors Without Borders is lying about all the victims of neurotoxins? Those people are fake?

[MNBrewer]

205. The question isn't whether the victims are false, but whether the "flag" is false

Doctors Without Borders doesn't know who did it. They say so.

[Logical]

73. LOL, ok, will take your word for it. n-t

[PowerToThePeople]

88. This is one big chickenhawk FAILPOST. n/t

[cthulu2016]

92. And if Obama doesn't bomb you'll be calling him a holocaust appeaser, of course.

Or is this sort of thing reserved for when you have convinced yourself that we will be bombing, and that the stink bombs will end up tossed only at the peaceniks?

[LostOne4Ever]

99. What ifs cut different ways

[div class="excerpt" style="margin-left:1em; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius:0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]
It's funny to imagine what you peace purists would have said when the U.S. Was about to go to war with Germany and the concentration camps were gassing millions of Jews.

Conversely, imagine if the germans had listened to the peace purists in Germany prior to the rise of Nazi party. Hitler would never of come to power.

Don't you love whatifs?

Of course this situation is completely similar. Syria is building up the greatest military might the world has ever seen, invading allied countries, and building concentration camps and rounding up civilians to kill them....oh wait, that not the situation at all.

[mwrguy]

100. Turkey finds sarin gas in homes of suspected Syrian Islamists

I would expect that both sides have sarin at this point.


Turkish security forces found a 2kg cylinder with sarin gas after searching the homes of Syrian militants from the Al-Qaeda linked Al-Nusra Front who were previously detained, Turkish media reports.

[Th1onein]

107. Beat those drums, baby. Beat 'em. Bomb bomb bomb, as McCain said.

It's okay, though, because it's a Democrat.

[bowens43]

111. what a mindbogglingly ridiculous post. Seriously, you sound like you're about 14. Are you?

[cali]

116. your op is hopelessly uninformed.

you are clueless. Here are some clues:

Jabhat al Nusra

Iran

H'zbollah

Russia

"Christians to Beirut, Alawites to the grave"

[boston bean]

125. "peace purists" what a gawd awful thing to be!

[PowerToThePeople]

152. Here is Pretzel_warrior's idea of peace activism

[PDJane]

126. My elderly mother still remembers the war years.

She was born in 1926. Her brothers fought; mother worked on the farm. From the age of 13. And worked in the textile mill.

She also remembers the anti-war drums. Canada, of course, is part of the commonwealth, and had to support Britain. The US listened to people like Charles Lindberg, who publicly stated that Canada was a US ally and should not have supported Britain. He also stated that a 'small Jewish minority' was pushing the USA into war. And don't forget Father Coughlin! There were a host of public figures who talked about that foreign war every chance they got, pushing non-involvement. Not peace, necessarily, but non-involvement. There was a large streak of anti-semitic feeling, too.

The US involvement in the war, as I remember, started only after Pearl Harbor; before that, your only involvement was financial. Even goods were sent on a lend-lease program. Of course, don't forget the Bush involvement in the war, including introducing Hitler to the eugenics movement and supporting Fritz Theissen, UBC, and the Consolidated Silesian Steel Company, which used slave labour from Auschwitz.

At that time, although willing to fund both sides of the war, the US was reluctant to come down on one side or another. Don't talk about peace mongers in that denigrating tone. The US got into that war kicking and screaming and dragging her heels.

How the US came to be the world's police has more to do with the immense profits from the war machine than any altruistic values.

[HardTimes99]

129. The OP is only interested in making neo-McCarthyite chickenshit slurs against

anyone opposed to American imperial hubris.

Such things as nuance and historical detail fall entirely beyond the OP's ken.

Thanks for contextualizing somewhat the isolationism and anti-war sentiment by referencing your mother's memories.

[BobbyBoring]

188. Funny thing that

There are those that claim the FDR kinda "Let Pearl Harbor happen". All the warnings were there but were ignored. Sort of like how Junior Bush "Let" 9/11 happen as the PNAC said we needed a "New Pearl Harbor" so we sheeple would support the "Regime Changes" they outlined.

A scared or enraged populace makes war much easier to sell.

[Autumn]

128. Obama is not bush there will be no going in with guns blazing to give them what they deserve.

As you use the term peace purists I will say you war purists are going to be disappointed.

[nil desperandum]

130. Peace Purists

Are you suggesting that the US which is currently working on an RIF to reduce military personnel should always be the tip of the spear when the UN condemns some civil action or another? What is the advantage to a US presence in Syria for the US? Would it be the same advantage we received by being in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Additionally just because the administration is making claims through Kerry that Assad is at fault doesn't mean it's necessarily so, in the Bekaa Valley where the rebels captured a chemical facility there were 100s of tons of chlorine gas, having been involved in NBC training in the military images of chlorine gas use look suspiciously like images released in Syria. I am not yet convinced Assad is alone in gassing the rebels, the rebels may have been using chlorine themselves.

While we are reducing the numbers of military personnel, which will involve involuntary separation shortly for thousands of soldiers who had hoped to make a career of service to the nation, we should tread carefully before involving ourselves in another debacle in the middle east. It looks suspiciously like the previous administration's attempts to enter into a war in the ME, there is no plan beyond getting involved. No midgame plan, and no endgame plan. If we get involved in Syria how long will we be there? What is the long term strategic goal beyond toppling Assad? Or is it the same as Afghanistan? Topple the Taliban spend a trillion dollars get thousands of people killed, abandon the place and allow the Taliban back in? That's the forecast for Afghanistan. Nothing has been accomplished to create a more peaceful Iraq either as there was no long term strategic plan for occupation and nation building. We allowed ourselves to be entangled as occupiers without a plan for that occupation and without a plan for ending the occupation and leaving stable regimes.

There is no plan for Syria either, consequently I am not interested in getting a bunch of American soldiers killed to prevent a civil war for which there is no plan for ending, no plan for stopping and no plan for post occupation....of course getting involved now would mean the next administration would deal with post occupation, so I guess it lets the current administration off the hook.

[reformist2]

132. OK, but what about our free trade with China, a supporter of Syria???

Hypocrisy much?

[bobduca]

133. Funny how posters align on this issue

I am not at all suprised at your gung-ho attitude. Quite Pragmatic and Sensible!

[Dash87]

134. Assad won't be punished at all.

The families of those killed, however, will have a lifetime of anguish. Many of them will be innocent civilians who were at the wrong place at the wrong time. Some will be children.

[Dash87]

135. The US didn't join WWII to stop The Holocaust.

Not much was known about the death camps until they were liberated. The US joined WWII because of Pearl Harbor and Hitler declaring war on the US.

[PDJane]

171. Actually, most European governments did know about the camps.

The camps were on the list of things that were officially not believed. The first camp to be set up was a concentration camp for political enemies; Dachau, in 1933.

Officially, the poles sent pictures of burning corpses to the Allies in 1942; those pictures were from Auschwitz-Birkenau. The estimated deaths from death camps are likely even higher than listed, because the Russians were not registered before being shot or otherwise exterminated.

[Marr]

136. "You peace purists". What site am I on, anyway?

That's something I'd expect a right-wing nitwit to say.

Then again, maybe one did.

[bobduca]

143. That one is not right wing, its pro-just-war and sensible and pragmatic and centrist!

This persona loves the NSA, Obama and hates

[font size=6]"You peace pursits"[/font]

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

137. Ummmmmmmmmmmm

what?
Why does it have to be the US to take action?
and what does the Germany/concentration remark mean? That Hitler was exterminating people was not widely known until the end of the war...........

[woo me with science]

138. 137 replies, zero recs.

Yep, that about sums it up.

[bobduca]

142. this inelegant OP seems to have crossed the line even for the NSA/WAR/DLC backers.

You see pragmatic sensible ones? This is why you should wait a few days to see the talking points posted here over and over. Look to the sensible professional ones for your answers!

[Coyotl]

140. Can you back up your accusation with a witness?

... maybe a Colin Powell?

[HangOnKids]

144. Will Colin be bringing some clip art?

That might be one of the lowest things I ever witnessed.

[Puzzledtraveller]

145. RAWR!!!!!

WAR!!!!!

[Bluenorthwest]

146. If you think the concentration camps were any part of why we joined the Allies, you are

deeply misinformed of the history of our country. The American public did not know about the death camps until they were liberated at the end of the war. The US had for many years refused to increase the 'quota' of Jews allowed to immigrate in spite of the pre-mass murder oppressions and imprisonment of Jews and other minorities such as Roma and gay people as well as the disabled. We could have let them all come here, but we did not, that's what the US did while Germany got ready to gas millions, shoot millions, etc.
The death camps were in no way part of the public consciousness nor officially stated reason for war.

And of course, if the German people had been 'Peace Purists' instead of aggressive war makers against their neighbors, there would have been no war at all. Since we are playing 'what if' that's the one I like 'what if the entire world was made up of Peace Purists instead of simply muttering that they worship the Prince of Peace while dropping bombs on other people?'

[Blue_Tires]

154. +1 The OP fails at cracking a book and reading some history

Ironically, the general U.S. anti-war sentiment before Pearl Harbor was VERY high, especially since WWI was supposedly the "war to end all wars"... The then-unimaginable scale of widespread death and destruction and a casualty count in the tens of millions had stripped off any remaining false notions of the war's 'poetic romanticism'...So, so many people died in gruesome, agonizing, and pointless ways...

[Efilroft Sul]

147. Why not work with the Arab League to help evacuate civilians first?

That would be the humanitarian alternative to the war machine's hard-on.

But that wouldn't be in the best interests of Saudi Arabia or the MIC.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

155. people have been fleeing to Jordan, Iraq, etc. for many months now

I think help with refugees can go hand in hand with aerial targeting of Assad's military assets just like happened in Kosovo.

[nadinbrzezinski]

156. Try to keep up, over a year

Over a year there has been talk of safe corridors.

And SOF troops have been on the ground as well

[AnotherMcIntosh]

151. Are you going to be behind the troops? How far behind?

[HooptieWagon]

160. He's in the 101st Keyboard Brigade.

The closest he gets to fighting is the length of an extension cord.

[HardTimes99]

169. Reminds me of a great sign I saw at an anti-war (Iraq) protest

in Los Angeles ca. 2003-04.

Handwritten sign said simply: "Backward, Christian Soldiers."

[Mr Dixon]

159. IMO

[Kingofalldems]

161. Larry Bolton said pretty much the same thing on Fox yesterday

He will fight the war in his living room as well.

[Zorra]

162. Heard your same bullshit all before. Before Vietnam, before Iraq. It's like deja vu all over again.

[KamaAina]

163. Does the rest of the world DESERVE World War III?

Because that's what we're going to get if we attack Assad, and he retaliates by striking Israel.

[DCBob]

164. This is flamebait.

There may be good reason to bomb Assad but calling people "peace purists" and making comparisons to the Holocaust is rediculous.

[Fawke Em]

165. Personally, I think we need roads, schools, police officers,

firefighters, teachers, bridges and single-payer healthcare.

I don't give a shit about what Assad is doing. Until we spend on OUR COUNTRY and on OUR CITIZENS, we shouldn't get into another fucking war to spend more of our money in a failed attempt to influence those who can't be influenced.

Peace purist, my ass.

[Enrique]

167. Assad has to go?

is the attack that is looking likely going to get rid of Assad? I doubt it, and I doubt that would even be the purpose of the attack.

[sgtbenobo]

186. Oh Sweet Jesus Enrique....

.... Assad came to my house last night and ate all of of our delicious ho-ho's. Then he whined about the fact that we only have basic cable. Next, he with no invitation rummaged through the storage shed trying to find stuff he could sell on ebay. I've already talked to his wife and she says he's twice as bad at their house and is thinking of moving back to her moms. This was such a pleasant little neighborhood until he moved here.

Whoops, sorry, you were commenting on that other Assad. But, I'm sure you can see how I could get all mixed up. Has anybody who condones the views of the author of this really considered what bombs and missiles do to a neighborhood?

Mark Twain wrote a little piece called the "War Prayer." I'd chip in and get Pretzel Warrior a copy, but I doubt it would any good.

Keep warm, Enrique


Carry on.

[marions ghost]

168. America would be stupid to fall for this rhetoric

but then there's Murka...

[Marr]

170. I think it's time for you and your pals to get out of the fucking tent.

It can only get so big, and you're stinking up the place.

"Peace purists". Jesus Christ.

[DesMoinesDem]

172. Zero Recs. LOL

[myrna minx]

173. I'll wear the banner of "peace purist" with PRIDE, thank you very much.

This OP is an embarrassment to our community - it's John Bolton-esque.

[closeupready]

175. K&R

[Bluenorthwest]

178. So since you are not a 'peace purist' do you prefer 'War Monger' or 'War Pimp' ?

Lord knows you are not sharp enough to be a 'War Profiteer' so which term would you rather be used about you? War Monger? War Pimp?

[Agnosticsherbet]

179. Actually, Republicans at the time were isolationists and opposed "Roosevelt's War"

for some time, even after Pearl Harbor. And it was known that Hitler was running concentration camps and murdering Jews, Gays, Gypsies, and anyone else they didn't like long before the Japanese' colossal mistake of waking the sleeping dragon. Hitler's war crimes against civilians were not sufficient to go to war. Americans didn't care if he murdered his civilians because they were Jewish or for any other reason.

I see nothing wrong with those opposed to all wars. It is their right. I just don't agree with them.

[WilliamPitt]

181. Godwin's Law is Fail.

[MrMickeysMom]

189. One rec from DU...

speaks volumes to me...

[Paladin]

190. Send us updates from the front lines, OK? (nt)

[usmc03]

195. It's a shitty deal, but...

He MAY have gassed his own people. Even if it's established that Assad's people did it, I fail to see why we have to be the ones to take action. Usually whenever we meddle in Middle Eastern affairs, regardless of our intentions, it's a complete fucking failure.

I agree, it is a horrible situation in Syria. I also agree that something has to be done...by other countries. Now, if only there were an organization of nations that could regularly meet and decide what to do in situations like this...

'Leaders of powerful nations' need to worry about what their populace thinks. In this case, the proponents of military action are sitting at about 9%. They also need to think about what their combat personnel have been through in the last decade or so. Federally, we barely have a functioning government. We have no business intervening anywhere, least of all in the Middle East.

Peace purist? Eight combat deployments. You're goddamn right I'm a peace purist.

Go bang your drum someplace else, chickenhawk.

[bvar22]

203. Thank You for your service,

...and thank you for this post.

[nashville_brook]

196. is this satire of over-the-top huffpuffery?

"People who are not in positions of governance and power can enjoy the luxury of always opposing any interventions. Leaders of powerful nations do not have that luxury."

[truedelphi]

211. Oh, thank you. I was viewing the post as another symptom of the

Fact that people are no longer learning relevant history.

But looking at it as you post it, the matter is revealed - this is all a comedic venture on the part of the writer.

Now I can sit back and simply laugh my concerns away.

[AgingAmerican]

198. "peace purists?"

I somewhat agree with you, but the stupid name calling wrecks it for me. It tells me that you don't really believe in anything except viciously lashing out. Did that gem come from that 'peoples view' propaganda website?

"Peace Purists" is just pathetic as an insult. Jaysus flipping Christ. What has the Democratic party turned into?

[Live and Learn]

199. What exactly do you thinks a war with Syria will accomplish

(beside furthering along the PNAC)? Thousands will be killed. That much we do know. And how exactly will life improve for Syrians after the war? Do you think the rebels are any better than what they have now?

If we can't be sure our involvement will improve conditions there and can be sure it will lead to more deaths, we have absolutely no business in being there. It really is that simple.

[AngryOldDem]

202. Thank you for this.

With all the outcry here, I've yet to really hear what the alternatives are to deal with a madman who gasses, napalms, and poisons his people. This is not a "come and let us reason together" moment. Neither is it a moment where the world can turn its back and pretend this isn't happening.

We need to remember the concepts of just and unjust war. I realize that is especially difficult given what has happened over the past decade and a half,and I'm positive that that is what's fueling most of the skepticism here. But these crimes against humanity in Syria cannot stand.

Obama has taken more care and diligence in deciding what actions that need to be taken here, more so than Bush EVER did concerning Iraq and Afghanistan. Can we at least acknowledge THAT? The evidence -- in the form of hundreds of dead bodies -- is there.

There's a lot to be said for the adage: All that evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing. I support Obama and the coalition in doing whatever it takes to get Assad OUT.

[bvar22]

204. Those DAMNED PURISTS!!!!

Always messing things up for us regular folks.

You would think that they would be willing to compromise,
and let us kill say just a few thousand innocent women and children....
you know, just a little collateral damage,
[font size=5]...but Nooooo![/font]

GDamned PURISTS insist that killing just ONE innocent child with American Bombs is TOOOOO Much.

[raccoon]

206. I sincerely hope you don't think that the reason the US got into war with Germany was because of the

Holocaust.

If you do, you need to study some 20th century history.