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joeybee12

(56,177 posts)
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:42 PM Aug 2013

US gun culture is 'corrupting the world,' Australia ex-deputy PM says after Okla. slaying

MELBOURNE, Australia -- Furious at the killing of an Australian college baseball player in Oklahoma, a senior figure in the victim's home country blamed the “gun culture” of United States for the death, saying it was “corrupting the world."

“The U.S. has chosen the pathway of illogical policy with regard to guns," Australia’s former deputy prime minister Tim Fischer said Friday. "They cannot expect not to have any criticism of it worldwide.”

“I am angry because it is corrupting the world, this gun culture of the United States.”

His remarks came as the family of slain catcher Christopher Lane struggled to understand why three teens killed him, apparently telling cops they were bored.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/23/20131976-us-gun-culture-is-corrupting-the-world-australia-ex-deputy-pm-says-after-okla-slaying?lite

Glad he gets that what yahoos here consider "rights" are nothng more than fetishes.

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US gun culture is 'corrupting the world,' Australia ex-deputy PM says after Okla. slaying (Original Post) joeybee12 Aug 2013 OP
K&R napkinz Aug 2013 #1
Oh no he did'nt!!! He WENT there. Good for him! Safetykitten Aug 2013 #2
Well said, Mr. Fischer. (nt) Paladin Aug 2013 #3
I see he still believes in the gunshow loophole. ileus Aug 2013 #4
Good to know it's not transnational corporations. krispos42 Aug 2013 #5
Politicians using xenophobia for political gain are universal... friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #13
*golf clap* Lizzie Poppet Aug 2013 #15
He specifically said "gun culture." OneGrassRoot Aug 2013 #35
"Hands, Fists" vs. "Rifles" as cause of homicide. Look it up... Eleanors38 Aug 2013 #48
How about "hands and fists" versus "guns"? Have you looked that one up? DanTex Aug 2013 #66
One of your own confirmed the 'culture war' bit a week or so ago: friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #82
Umm, yeah, the gun culture is a problem. DanTex Aug 2013 #86
I don't ignore them nearly as studiously as gun prohibitionists... friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #90
What are you talking about? Who's ignoring non-gun violence? DanTex Aug 2013 #93
The poster dealt with rifles, hence the reminder of the comparative data... Eleanors38 Aug 2013 #92
LOL. I figured you'd post a link to some right-wing hole like "guncite". DanTex Aug 2013 #95
So, you take issue with the data from the sources cited? Or just smear? Eleanors38 Aug 2013 #97
Umm, yes, I take issue with the sources cited. DanTex Aug 2013 #99
Again, you continue to smear and attack. Eleanors38 Aug 2013 #100
Excellent series of posts theHandpuppet Aug 2013 #101
You're quite the piece of work, aren't you? OneGrassRoot Aug 2013 #77
And you seem to be quite the confirmed extremist... Eleanors38 Aug 2013 #96
And thus it's a "culture war" krispos42 Aug 2013 #102
I think this senseless murder Jenoch Aug 2013 #6
Feral cops too PowerToThePeople Aug 2013 #8
The guns sure do help, though. Squinch Aug 2013 #19
Do you have any idea how many .22 revolvers there are in the hands of the public in the U.S.? Jenoch Aug 2013 #49
"Even if it was tried." Squinch Aug 2013 #55
I threw that in there as an aside. Jenoch Aug 2013 #58
Again, "even if it was tried" Squinch Aug 2013 #63
Ok, you have to spell it out for me... Jenoch Aug 2013 #72
Yep, and we are so inept that we can't take the guns out of their hands:( rainy Aug 2013 #71
And his opinion means something because? Redneck_Dem Aug 2013 #7
Some live only for the approval of those they think are cool... friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #9
Or those who aren't sanguine when their citizens are randomly killed over the right Squinch Aug 2013 #22
He (and you) mistake a violence culture for gun culture. friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #24
He and I see the two as inextricably mixed. We see it that way because Squinch Aug 2013 #31
"You all found an incident where some kids killed a man without guns." friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #43
Gun deaths in the United States are not single incidents. Squinch Aug 2013 #47
And without guns, we'd *still* have a higher murder rate than Australia... friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #57
And we'd *still* have a much, much, much lower murder rate than we do now. Squinch Aug 2013 #61
You seem to have mistaken me for a NRA fan, when in fact I despise them friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #70
Then you need to stop making arguments like "without guns we'd still have crime." That's classic NRA Squinch Aug 2013 #79
That's the FBI's Uniform Crime Report, not the NRA friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #88
Way to miss the point!! Squinch Aug 2013 #89
The point is, we have a gun culture and a violence problem. friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #91
Good God. This is ridiculous. Have a nice day. Squinch Aug 2013 #94
And you refuse to see any corelation between the two Doctor_J Aug 2013 #103
enjoy your stay PowerToThePeople Aug 2013 #11
And your opinion means something because? City Lights Aug 2013 #17
Our opinion comes with a vote, his does not Redneck_Dem Aug 2013 #18
Lots of black people and young people and old people in a lot of states Squinch Aug 2013 #20
His is more culture war. Fitting. Real world problems are so-o-o uncool. Eleanors38 Aug 2013 #36
The opinion of an ex deputy PM of another country Redneck_Dem Aug 2013 #44
What is up with you guys today? Are you all playing with an incomplete set of refrigerator Squinch Aug 2013 #52
+1 PowerToThePeople Aug 2013 #59
Sometimes colorful word magnets Redneck_Dem Aug 2013 #62
In a land of dreams reality help keep show colorful. Squinch Aug 2013 #67
soon tourists will stop coming... n/t EC Aug 2013 #10
You wish. Australian tourists keep going to Bali... friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #12
"31 Australians died in Bali in the past financial year" Lizzie Poppet Aug 2013 #27
"What? No call for a boycott?" That would mean less Yank bashing... friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #29
No, the violence culture rl6214 Aug 2013 #14
I doubt these three idiots would have hesitated to beat the man RZM Aug 2013 #16
I'm thinking the point was about the (so-called) culture, less than the guns. truebluegreen Aug 2013 #23
I'd go farther: US culture is corrupting the world. truebluegreen Aug 2013 #21
Feh. Internalized xenophobia. friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #25
That doesn't actually make any sense. Squinch Aug 2013 #41
Think Aaron McGruder's "Uncle Ruckus"... friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #51
There's always a few here who interpret the wish to regulate guns as despising Americans. Squinch Aug 2013 #56
Kindly point them out- but remember... friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #60
I noticed a post out of the gungeon, where some brave soul said something to the Squinch Aug 2013 #64
How so? Dash87 Aug 2013 #26
Gun culture? Robb Aug 2013 #28
Did you have something relevant you wanted to add? friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #30
Yes. "Gun culture" is characterized by xenophobic narcissism. Robb Aug 2013 #33
Then you'd best find a new strategy in your war against it. friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #38
What, on DU? Robb Aug 2013 #98
Glad you brought such overwhelming science and logic to liberal thought. nt Eleanors38 Aug 2013 #37
It's more about fighting the good fight than actual victory for that sort. friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #40
"For that sort." What was that you were saying about xenophobia? Squinch Aug 2013 #42
Hardly xenophobia- the impulse is universal. The Oz term for it is "wowserism"... friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #45
Again, that doesn't actually make any sense. Squinch Aug 2013 #50
Fischer is a xenophobic wowser that seems to have found some fans here friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #65
So now you veer off into the history of the word wowser? Bon voyage. Unregulated guns still suck. Squinch Aug 2013 #68
When you find someone that wants unregulated guns, point them out to me. friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #73
Which was pretty much Fischer's point. Squinch Aug 2013 #75
...along with some gratuitous Yank-bashing for the hometown crowd. friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #80
Again, you can shoot the messenger (pun intended) but the message is still valid. Squinch Aug 2013 #83
It's too bad that most xenophobic narcissists/"gun rights advocates" never actually DanTex Aug 2013 #46
He's one of them gun grabbers! Git him! Kingofalldems Aug 2013 #32
And I care about what he says because.....? GalaxyHunter Aug 2013 #34
K&R MotherPetrie Aug 2013 #39
If there's anything gun nuts hate almost as much as gun control, it's people from foreign countries. DanTex Aug 2013 #53
+1000 noiretextatique Aug 2013 #69
Exactly! The issue people here are having is that someone is pointing at us and saying, Squinch Aug 2013 #76
He's right, and Australia's 1996 gun laws would be perfect for the longterm future of this country. Hoyt Aug 2013 #54
And he's right but he's lucky malaise Aug 2013 #74
Then why doesn't Canada have a worse problem than Jamaica? friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #78
Date our gun violence - I dare you malaise Aug 2013 #81
This message was self-deleted by its author HangOnKids Aug 2013 #87
And then there's Mexico. DanTex Aug 2013 #84
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh! malaise Aug 2013 #85

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
5. Good to know it's not transnational corporations.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:00 PM
Aug 2013

Or the carbon economy. Or the CIA. Or GATT. Or the WTO. Or Big Oil. Or the Pentagon. Or Wall Street. Or NAFTA. Or the TPP.


Nope. Americans owning guns, in America, is what's corrupting the world.

OneGrassRoot

(22,920 posts)
35. He specifically said "gun culture."
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:54 PM
Aug 2013

I agree with his statement in that regard.

There are many things which make up this gun culture -- and not all gun owners necessarily are part of the corrosive, corrupting nature of the violent, dehumanizing, guns-above-all-else (thanks, NRA and gun manufacturers who laugh all the way to the bank), chest-thumping gun culture.

Some legal gun owners have a single handgun because they are afraid of someone in particular -- a domestic violence victim, for example.

Some legal gun owners have a basic rifle because they enjoy -- or need to -- hunt for food for their family.

Some legal gun owners have a rifle because they enjoy going to practice ranges truly for the mere sport of it, like archery.

But we know that many gun owners in the United States now own MANY guns; many high-capacity weapons and a lot of ammo to go with it.

The fear of black helicopters and growth of militias -- and easy access -- is feeding a dangerous gun culture full of people who are not well trained regarding the weapons they own, and who are not always careful to store those weapons properly.

Then there's the equally dangerous aspect of our f*cked up gun culture, imho, in which toys are made to remarkably resemble real guns, and real guns are manufactured to look like toys (Hello Kitty AK-47, anyone?).

People have family pictures taken with their guns. People post pics online of their newest addition and even name their latest "baby."

There is something most definitely decidedly fucked up about our unique gun culture here in my very strong opinion.

Again, not all gun owners feed into this or are part of it, so I'm not going to debate about it here, as I don't know DUers personally and don't know whether or not they feed into this culture or not. Being a gun owner or being an advocate for the Second Amendment doesn't -- to me -- indicate one is automatically part of that culture.

If someone is almost rabid about gun ownership and/or the Second Amendment, then chances are they ARE part of and indeed perpetuating that messed-up culture of guns.


 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
48. "Hands, Fists" vs. "Rifles" as cause of homicide. Look it up...
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:14 PM
Aug 2013

and get back with us about the culture thing.

You really do have a problem with family members taking pictures with guns. Of course, some can be tasteless, and offensive. But celebrating good target practice, hunting, or a fun day at the range by taking pictures is not much to go on.

Most homicides are committed (70%) by those with felony records, and most murders are committed within the core areas of large cities. Can we expect you to go after this part of the "gun culture" with as much fervor as Hello Kitty pictures?

Culture war is inextricably linked to animosity towards whole populations. It is unfortunate that so many gun-controllers/banners have now chosen this path in the name of "liberal" or "progressive" thought.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
66. How about "hands and fists" versus "guns"? Have you looked that one up?
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:33 PM
Aug 2013

An essential part of progressive thought is believing in logic in science, which in this case means owning up to the fact that our homicide rate is multiple times higher than any other wealthy country, the difference being almost entirely due to guns.

By now most DUers I'm sure are familiar with the false/misleading talking points that you are repeating verbatim from the NRA website (70% of homicides committed by people with felony records? Not sure what the point of that statistic is, but I'm wondering, did you just make that number up?).

I wonder if even you actually believe the whole "culture war" line. Does it ever occur to you that maybe all of the social scientists and epidemiologists who have for decades pointed out that America's (lack of) gun laws are costing tens of thousands of lives a year might be onto something? Month after month, the victims of gun violence pile up in the US, whereas in Canada, UK, Australia, you name it, the've pretty much solved this problem.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
82. One of your own confirmed the 'culture war' bit a week or so ago:
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:00 PM
Aug 2013
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023481555#post29

Scootaloo (7,154 posts)
29. America's problem isn't guns. It's GUN CULTURE.

A gun is just a potentially very lethal tool. If we simply treated it like what it is, instead of a heroic talisman and cultural icon, if we classed it with other machinery that can very easily end lives through regular operation, rather than a mark of maleness and patriotism... maybe we could fix the fucking problems we have with guns.

It's not the hammer that's the problem, it's the people who think whacking things with hammers is a sacrament.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
86. Umm, yeah, the gun culture is a problem.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:03 PM
Aug 2013

Rape culture is also a problem. Racist culture is another problem. I guess you don't think so because it's got the word "culture" in it.

I guess whatever it takes to ignore the 30,000 Americans lives lost to guns every year. In a way, it's probably convenient to be able to tolerate that much denialism.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
90. I don't ignore them nearly as studiously as gun prohibitionists...
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:17 PM
Aug 2013

..(and they *are* just that, I won't euphemize them) ignore non-gun violence.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
93. What are you talking about? Who's ignoring non-gun violence?
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:27 PM
Aug 2013

You're the one making the "culture war" accusation, after all, just wondering whether it's dawned on you that 30,000 people die from guns every year. I know that you've convinced yourself that guns and gun violence have nothing to do with each other both, but you can't really expect everyone else to be as illogical as you are.

Right-wingers are odd creatures. Whether it's guns, climate change, health care, or anything else, they always manage to ignore the obvious, basic facts, and convince themselves that it's all some secret plot to undermine American values. Don't you think, just maybe, people care about these issues because of the real harm to society? After all, you don't see many liberals wanting to restrict access to NASCAR races...

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
92. The poster dealt with rifles, hence the reminder of the comparative data...
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:22 PM
Aug 2013

Excerpted from, Kates, Don B., et. al, Guns and Public Health: Epidemic of Violence or Pandemic of Propaganda? Originally published as 61 Tenn. L. Rev. 513-596 (1994):

"Looking only to official criminal records, data over the past thirty years consistently show that the mythology of murderers as ordinary citizens does not hold true. Studies have found that approximately 75% of murderers have adult criminal records, and that murderers average a prior adult criminal career of six years, including four major adult felony arrests. These studies also found that when the murder occurred "[a]bout 11% of murder arrestees [were] actually on pre-trial release"--that is, they were awaiting trial for another offense."

"The fact that only 75% of murderers have adult crime records should not be misunderstood as implying that the remaining 25% of murderers are non-criminals. The reason over half of those 25% of murderers don't have adult records is that they are juveniles. Thus, by definition they cannot have an adult criminal record."

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvmurd.html
___________

To paraphrase, by now most DUers I'm sure are familiar with the strident, extremist gun-control politics you repeat verbatim from your own stale hash.

You want a "point?" Sure. This is the locus of most "gun-violence" in this nation, and is the place to begin with getting dangerous killers and illegal gun-users out of law-abiding society, and it is the place to start to bring to bear social policies that can reduce the rate of homicides -- a rate FAR better now than a generation ago.

Another of your hash "points:" Other countries have "solved the problem" by not having the kind of violent culture in the first place before legislation was passed; we are not them, they are not us. The old saying attributed to Harvard University applies: "They graduate the best because they accept the best."

The "culture war line?" Hey, you guys started on this -- it's YOUR creation. So any "belief" system comes from the source. Own it. As for academia, think: Bancroft Prize and the CDC summary of effectiveness of gun-control measures. Now, you look it up.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
95. LOL. I figured you'd post a link to some right-wing hole like "guncite".
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:31 PM
Aug 2013

And to a non-peer-reviewed article in the Tenessee Law Review by Libertarian ideologues, no less.

Anyway, I have no illusions of trying to reach you with logic or empirical evidence, but at least you've shown your colors to everyone else.

BTW, if anyone is interested, a good starting place to look for legitimate, peer-reviewed research on gun violence is the Harvard School of Public Health.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
97. So, you take issue with the data from the sources cited? Or just smear?
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:48 PM
Aug 2013

DanTex, your attempt to isolate me (and others) by "showing colors to everyone else" is the standard doctrine of gun-control politics on DU. It's been going on for some years, now.

It doesn't work. You know it.

Your position has grown increasingly extreme, even as I have on numerous occasions offered proposals on dealing with violence in this country. That is disturbing, as you seem to place more value on attacking fellow-DU members than on your presumed goals of reducing (gun only?) violence.

Quit trying to discredit and isolate others, it does you no good.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
99. Umm, yes, I take issue with the sources cited.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 06:27 PM
Aug 2013

Like I pointed out, it is an article written by libertarian ideologues, published in a non-peer-reviewed journal. Beyond that, even if that article were correct, it doesn't say that 70% of murderers are prior felons, it says they have criminal records, which includes, for example, being arrested for possession of marijuana. These are the kinds of distinctions that people like yourself, who are at odds with the bulk of legitimate published science, like to ignore, in order to present misleading, pseudo-scientific cases. I invite you to examine some of the legitimate published research on the subject, but I doubt you'll take me up on it.

As far as attacking other DUers, remember, you are the one accusing gun control advocates (a group which includes most DUers and most Democrats) of being "culture warriors" and exhibiting "animosity towards populations", so obviously you are the one doing the attacking here. And what are you attacking us for? For believing that the facts, statistics, and peer-reviewed studies on gun violence are not actually some ivory tower conspiracy against rural conservatives. Per you, the only way to not be a "culture warrior" is to ignore the evidence and instead read (and believe) some right-wing diatribes posted on "guncite".

Anyway, you are free to ignore the statistical evidence and the criminological and epidemiological studies, and pretend that guns have nothing to do with homicide rate in the US being several times higher than in the rest of the developed world (even though our rates of robbery, assault, general violent crime are not out of the ordinary range). You are also free to believe that global warming is a hoax, and that evolution is a lie from the pit of hell. I have seen enough ignorance and denialism that nothing you come up with will really surprise me.

But at least you might understand that the people who disagree with you actually disagree with you on the substance of the issues, rather than being motivated by some kind of interpersonal hatred. I mean, there are plenty of other "culture" issues that liberals could go to war about, but you don't see anyone calling for restrictions on, say NASCAR races. Why? Because NASCAR doesn't kill 30,000 people every year.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
100. Again, you continue to smear and attack.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 06:37 PM
Aug 2013

There are folks here I can have a reasonable discussion with. You like to think you are one of them, but you are not. You call in the "everyones," you try to isolate and pick off, you try to associate me with all manner of right-wing causes. It is your way, and you cannot hide that by calling me "motivated by some kind of interpersonal hatred."

With who? You? I don't even know you.

And again, people DO in fact kill people. And themselves.

Have a nice day.

OneGrassRoot

(22,920 posts)
77. You're quite the piece of work, aren't you?
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:57 PM
Aug 2013

"But celebrating good target practice, hunting, or a fun day at the range by taking pictures is not much to go on."

As I tried to point out in my comment, those would be perfect acceptable reasons to not only be a gun owner, but to take pictures of such activity.

You seem to be familiar with my opinions on this topic, so surely you know the types of images to which I object and which I feel are part of this gun culture you seem to feel doesn't exist.

I wasn't familiar with the term "culture war" (edit to add: in the context that you keep using it), but a quick Google search turns up a plethora of NRA-related references to this war.

Since you use this term so often -- along with other NRA talking points -- you are someone I have no interest in interacting with any further as I fear finding common ground would be too laborious and a waste of time and energy.


 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
96. And you seem to be quite the confirmed extremist...
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:40 PM
Aug 2013

whos immediately move to plug his/her ears. If you study prohibitions, you will see they all stem from a hatred of some enemy; racial, sexual, status, religion, foreign, or a possessor-of-something. Frankly, I don't know much about your opinions, so I don't know what you are talking about.

Don't kid yourself about the culture war. It's been going on a long time before the innertube, before pop-up web sites, before, the screaming hate-fests on DU. You can find plenty of bathroom scrawl about gun-owners in the old print media back when Boston was charting hits. Only they weren't the folks that stumbled in and found a keyboard. They were editors, columnists, politicians, "opinion leaders," etc. who thought they could get a cheap victory by smearing tens of millions of gun-owners.

You can -- as extremists here have done -- cite "NRAtalkingPoints, Inc." all you want, but your intent evidently is to avoid debate. But that is part of the doctrine and narrative of gun-control/ban politics and is NO substitute for finding "common ground."

I don't block off people, we can resume discussion when you wish.

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
102. And thus it's a "culture war"
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 12:21 AM
Aug 2013

And when people wage a cultural war, they pass laws designed to punish those of a particular culture, regardless whether the laws are effective or reasonable.

The fact is that gun technology, like all technologies, changes and evolves over time. As hunting waned with the urbanization of America, gun ownership became more focused on self-defense and related recreational shooting (such as pistol competitions that emphasized tactical shooting) and less on hunting. So guns, particularly long guns, became more optimized for self-defense, taking on ergonomic features the military adopted during the post-WW2 era.

The long-barreled bolt-action rifle firing a powerful cartridge, or the lever-action rifle firing a moderate-powered cartridge, was replaced by semi-automatic rifles firing moderate cartridges from detachable magazines. Naturally, many of these rifles were simply civilian-legal versions of existing military guns like the M-16 and the AK-47.

This scared people, who at the time were dealing with the peak of the crime wave of the 20th century and the related violence and mayhem. These people, worried because people were buying more and more "assault weapons" instead of Elmer-Fudd-looking guns, and they started a cultural war against them.

Of course, this sent sales of the guns they wanted to ban to record numbers, and the conversation went mainstream. And a curious thing happened. It turns out that people that own guns get really unhappy and politically motivated when politicians move against things they own, and that people that don't own guns don't get correspondingly motivated to keep NOT owning guns.

You can poke fun at the people that are worried that "gubmint's comin' fer our gunz", but the fact is that there is a constant and non-inconsiderable movement out there to arbitrarily outlaw broad types of guns and accessories, and that wants to make buying and owning a gun considerably more expensive and difficult. And they want to do it through the power of the various levels of government in the U.S.

Now, obviously, there is a reaction to this. The RWers have adopted the nonsensical line about needing to overthrow a government that has become unresponsive to the public; yet these are the same people that vote for corporatist Republicans and Democrats that do NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING, to curtail the political power of organized money that is corrupting our political system and INSURING that they are not heard!

Or they're worried about societal/economic collapse (a valid fear) or a race war (a stupid white-man's fear) or a UN invasion ( ). There are perfectly valid, and reasonable, reasons for owning an AR-15 that don't involve black UN helicopters or space aliens.

But to counter the hysteria of mass shootings played endlessly by the MSM, and the (usually) irrational gun laws that have stemmed from those tragedies, they've adapted a counter-hysterical stance. Death panels and secret UN arms treaties, of course. And the FEMA camps all ready to be filled with prisoners taken by ACORN stormtroopers.

But despite the potential of all the AR-15s and AK-47s and M-1 Carbines and Mini-14s and the like, with all their high-capacity magazines and protruding pistol grips and lasers and tactical lights and camo finishes, rifles are a minor player in murder, robbery, etc. High-profile shooting asides (yeah, I know, it's a big aside, but bear with me), they simply are not a significant factor. Something like 5% of all murders (when the weapon was identifiable) are with rifles of all stripes.

So you can worry all you want; your odds of being killed with a muscle-driven weapon are significantly higher than being killed with a rifle. Oh, and accidental shooting deaths are at a low, after declining steadily for decades. MSM strikes again, eh?

But attempts to wage a culture war are only empowering the other side. This is in part because many of the laws proposed are ineffective, ridiculous, shameless pandering that only works on gun-ignorant people ("assault weapon" bans) and deflects attention from the root causes of violence and crime (War on Drugs, anyone?). But it also highlights this simple fact: gun owners will get politically organized and spend their money to continue to keep their guns (or their options on future guns), and non-gun-owners will NOT get politically organized and will NOT spend their money to continue to NOT own guns.

I agree with you that guns should look like guns, and toys should look like toys. None of my guns will ever look like anything but a serious chunk of metal and plastic and wood. And some of those "family portraits" make me shudder; I think there's one (1) picture of me holding a gun, and that's with two other people while out deer hunting on the prairie.

 

Jenoch

(7,720 posts)
6. I think this senseless murder
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:02 PM
Aug 2013

has less to do with guns than it does with feral youth. These kids are psychotic. How were they raised that it would even occur to them to just go out and murder somebody? The same goes for the feral youths (and their parents) in Spokane.

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
8. Feral cops too
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:08 PM
Aug 2013
http://www.kxly.com/news/spokane-news/police-responding-to-shooting-at-salvation-army/-/101214/21574106/-/5sok9j/-/index.html

SPOKANE, Wash. - An early morning road rage incident at the intersection of Division Street and North River Drive ended with a man being shot and killed by Spokane police officers in front of the Salvation Army building at 222 East Indiana Avenue.

And more guns

http://www.kxly.com/news/spokane-news/police-responding-to-possible-hostage-situation/-/101214/21622492/-/4qyjmhz/-/index.html

SPOKANE, Wash. -

Multiple law enforcement agencies, including the Spokane Police Department and the SWAT team are responding to a hostage situation at the Double Eagle Pawn shop at 3030 E Sprague.
A gunman is barricaded inside the store, has one hostage and is asking to talk to news media.

And more guns.

http://www.kxly.com/news/spokane-news/police-investigate-reported-shooting-in-west-central/-/101214/21616942/-/hk7s2a/-/index.html

SPOKANE, Wash. -

Two people were detained after Spokane Police responded to a call of shots fire in the West Central neighborhood Thursday afternoon.
Neighbors say they heard at least one shot fired, then saw two people running when police arrived on scene.
Police detained two men in an alley near Gardner and Elm while other officers searched the street and nearby lawns for shell casings.
Cody Sleep lives nearby, and says he's seen the neighborhood slowly get worse over the last eight years.
"That's why I conceal carry," he said. "In case any of that tries to spill over to my friends of family I can handle it."
No injuries were reported and there has been no word on any arrests.

------------

YEA GUNS!!!!

Squinch

(50,955 posts)
19. The guns sure do help, though.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:08 PM
Aug 2013

"Feral youth," as you describe it, exists everywhere. Only the really dumb cultures put guns in their hands.

 

Jenoch

(7,720 posts)
49. Do you have any idea how many .22 revolvers there are in the hands of the public in the U.S.?
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:15 PM
Aug 2013

I would be surprised if that .22 was any newer than about 30 years old. Not too many are being sold these days. I don't know how we would ever get all the handguns out of public circulation even if it was tried.

Yes, there are feral youth all over, they don't all end up being murderers however. There is just as easy access to guns in my neighborhood as there is in Chicago. It's about outlaws, who yes, have access to guns.

 

Jenoch

(7,720 posts)
58. I threw that in there as an aside.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:22 PM
Aug 2013

I don't want to see what would happen to the political landscape if banning handguns in the U.S. was attempted.

Squinch

(50,955 posts)
63. Again, "even if it was tried"
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:30 PM
Aug 2013

And, as usual with gunners, you are confusing banning with regulating.

But we have learned to expect that, haven't we?

 

Jenoch

(7,720 posts)
72. Ok, you have to spell it out for me...
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:40 PM
Aug 2013

What EXACTLY is your point by throwing the "even if it was tried" phrase back at me?

I wrote 'getting all the handguns out of public circulation'. That would be an outright ban. How do you propose to accomplish that? I'm not confused at all about what I wrote, just your response. I was the one who wrote a post and you replied.

Squinch

(50,955 posts)
22. Or those who aren't sanguine when their citizens are randomly killed over the right
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:14 PM
Aug 2013

to pursue a hobby.

Here in the US, many don't understand that attitude. I think it's a good one.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
24. He (and you) mistake a violence culture for gun culture.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:35 PM
Aug 2013

And there's no doubt there is a violence culture, as see the veteran beaten to death in a parking
lot referred to elsewhere in this thread.

It's a shame seeing a pandering xenophobe getting support here because of a shared distaste for guns.

Squinch

(50,955 posts)
31. He and I see the two as inextricably mixed. We see it that way because
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:48 PM
Aug 2013

of all the evidence that points to their being inextricably mixed.

And yes, congratulations. You all found an incident where some kids killed a man without guns. Have you been reading Robb's posts of the dozens and dozens and dozens of deaths from guns in the US each week?

Saying the US is chock full of gun nuts is not xenophobia. It's just an observation of the behavior of folks walking around with their rifles at Walmart, and a familiarity with the gun death and wounding statistics of the United States.

It's also not distaste for guns. It's fury with the idiots who wield them and pander to the NRA's need to keep us all unsafe by refusing any reasonable regulation of guns. All the while insisting that they are responsible.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
43. "You all found an incident where some kids killed a man without guns."
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:09 PM
Aug 2013

Yep, and I extrapolated from a single incident just as Fischer did.

It seems the two of you only care about violence when it's committed with a gun.
Also, it's hard for an Australian politician to go wrong when Yank-bashing.

I don't recall Fischer calling for a boycott of tourism to Indonesia, even though it's far more dangerous
for Australians than the US:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023520853#post12

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-03/australian-suffers-head-wounds-in-mysterious-bali-incident/4730482

"Australian left for dead after mysterious roadside Bali incident amid growing fears of violence against tourists"



Squinch

(50,955 posts)
47. Gun deaths in the United States are not single incidents.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:14 PM
Aug 2013

And yes, I do care deeply about the epidemic of gun violence in the United States. If gun violence were brought under control in the US as it was in Australia, there would be a fraction of the amount of violence in our country, as there was there. So, yes, for the moment, I think gun violence is the place to concentrate.

And you can blame and vilify the messenger all you want, and throw around the word "xenophobia" all day (incorrectly, by the way) but you can't change the fact that gun violence in the US is out of control and is completely unnecessary.

Rail on.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
57. And without guns, we'd *still* have a higher murder rate than Australia...
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:22 PM
Aug 2013

..even if there weren't a single instance of a non-firearm method being substituted.

The Boston Marathon bombings aren't referred to as
"an example of pressure cooker bomb violence".

As long as you concentrate on the means and not the acts, you are doomed to failure.

Squinch

(50,955 posts)
61. And we'd *still* have a much, much, much lower murder rate than we do now.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:27 PM
Aug 2013

As long as you concentrate on pandering, as you say, to the NRA's stance of unfettered gun access for all, we are all doomed to failure.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
70. You seem to have mistaken me for a NRA fan, when in fact I despise them
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:38 PM
Aug 2013

And unless you'd care to define "unfettered", I can hardly cop to agreeing with them.

Squinch

(50,955 posts)
79. Then you need to stop making arguments like "without guns we'd still have crime." That's classic NRA
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:58 PM
Aug 2013

Not to mention silly.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
88. That's the FBI's Uniform Crime Report, not the NRA
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:13 PM
Aug 2013

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean the NRA invented it

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-7

Murder, Types of Weapons Used

Percent Distribution by Region, 2011

Download Excel

Region
all
Firearms 67.7


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

gives a rate for the US of 4.8/100,000, which leads to a non-gun homicide rate of 1.6/100,000

So if guns were never used to murder, and no substitute was used, we'd still have a higher
murder rate than most of Western Europe and the G8 countries.

Once again, my suspicion that y'all don't give a damn about non-gun violence is confirmed...
 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
91. The point is, we have a gun culture and a violence problem.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:22 PM
Aug 2013

The idea that getting rid of the first will solve the second is magical thinking on the order of:

"The reign of tears is over. The slums will soon be a memory. We will turn our prisons into factories and our jails into storehouses and corncribs. Men will walk upright now, women will smile and children will laugh. Hell will be forever for rent."
-Billy Sunday

http://www.albany.edu/~wm731882/organized_crime1_final.html


http://www.billysunday.org/sermons/booze.php3

City Lights

(25,171 posts)
17. And your opinion means something because?
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:38 PM
Aug 2013


See how that works?

His opinion carries the same weight as yours or mine.

Squinch

(50,955 posts)
20. Lots of black people and young people and old people in a lot of states
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:11 PM
Aug 2013

will soon have opinions that don't come with a vote. I'll still be listening to them.

The guy's opinion counts because he's right. You know it and I know it.

Enjoy your stay.

 

Redneck_Dem

(35 posts)
44. The opinion of an ex deputy PM of another country
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:10 PM
Aug 2013

will have no influence over the 2nd Amendment rights of Americans. He cannot vote to change our policy and the only people who agree with him already share his uninformed opinion.
The majority of Americans will never his opinion and the ones who do have already dismissed it.

Squinch

(50,955 posts)
52. What is up with you guys today? Are you all playing with an incomplete set of refrigerator
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:17 PM
Aug 2013

word magnets?

 

Redneck_Dem

(35 posts)
62. Sometimes colorful word magnets
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:29 PM
Aug 2013

are the only way to show some people the difference between the dream world they live in and reality. Helps keep em focused.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
12. You wish. Australian tourists keep going to Bali...
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:25 PM
Aug 2013

...despite the fact it's far more dangerous for them than the States:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-03/australian-suffers-head-wounds-in-mysterious-bali-incident/4730482

Australian left for dead after mysterious roadside Bali incident amid growing fears of violence against tourists

By Rebecca Baillie

Updated Tue 4 Jun 2013, 8:48am AEST

An Australian woman has revealed how she was left for dead with massive head wounds on a Bali roadside, amid fears of growing violence against Australian tourists in the country.

Official statistics show 31 Australians died in Bali in the past financial year, but what is less well reported is the number who have been assaulted and injured...

...Richard Flax has lived in Bali for 25 years. He is involved in the island's emergency response group, providing assistance to travellers in trouble.

He set up a Facebook page called Mugged In Bali and was overwhelmed with the response. More than 500 people posted about their experiences...


 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
29. "What? No call for a boycott?" That would mean less Yank bashing...
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:47 PM
Aug 2013

...and no half-clever Oz politician would forgo the chance to play that card.

 

rl6214

(8,142 posts)
14. No, the violence culture
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:33 PM
Aug 2013

Next he's gonna comment on the WW2 vet that survived the battle of Okinawa only to be beaten to death saying it was caused by this so called "gun culture" and not by violent thugs.

 

RZM

(8,556 posts)
16. I doubt these three idiots would have hesitated to beat the man
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:36 PM
Aug 2013

So it's certainly not all about guns. All three are grade A psychopaths. One of the dumbasses had apparently tweeted about beating people recently.

I don't want them on the street at all, let alone with guns. Then again, they weren't in legal possession of the gun they used.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
51. Think Aaron McGruder's "Uncle Ruckus"...
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:16 PM
Aug 2013

There's always a few here that despise American culture (while remaining a part of it).

Squinch

(50,955 posts)
56. There's always a few here who interpret the wish to regulate guns as despising Americans.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:20 PM
Aug 2013

More at Free Republic, but always a few here.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
60. Kindly point them out- but remember...
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:25 PM
Aug 2013

...not wanting to regulate guns the way you want to doesn't mean they don't want to
regulate guns.

For instance, I think all gun transfers/sales should be subject to background checks.

Squinch

(50,955 posts)
64. I noticed a post out of the gungeon, where some brave soul said something to the
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:32 PM
Aug 2013

effect of, "really, just between us, what would you like to see in terms of regulations?"

There was the DU equivalent of crickets in the response.

And bully for you. You think we should make sure the person isn't a raving murderer before we sell them a gun. I think there is more we can do.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
38. Then you'd best find a new strategy in your war against it.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:02 PM
Aug 2013

The one you're employing now isn't working- in case you haven't noticed, the people you rail against
haven't had much trouble countering you lately.

Robb

(39,665 posts)
98. What, on DU?
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 06:22 PM
Aug 2013

Most of the DUers I've railed against have been banned, actually. Some more than once. The rest of the Gun Squad are pretty harmless.

It's the fetishists in the real world I find more disturbing. Fortunately their influence continues to wane, as civilization progresses. It always does, eventually.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
40. It's more about fighting the good fight than actual victory for that sort.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:07 PM
Aug 2013

Well, actually it might not be- but it just seems that way because most
culture warriors lose in the long run...

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
45. Hardly xenophobia- the impulse is universal. The Oz term for it is "wowserism"...
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:12 PM
Aug 2013

...but it differs only in name from the USAian variety.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
65. Fischer is a xenophobic wowser that seems to have found some fans here
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:33 PM
Aug 2013

There is a certain strain in Australian politics that mirrors ones we know of.

A politician that bashes Europe and Europeans will always get approval from certain low-information voters here,
while bashing the US and Americans serves a similar function in Australia.

And the term 'wowser'? That's not gerenerally known here- but it fits Fischer to a T:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wowser

Wowser is a term that originated as a slang expression; it is most commonly heard in Australian and New Zealand English. "Wowser" refers to a person who seeks to deprive others of behaviour deemed to be immoral or "sinful".

History

The term originated in Australia, at first carrying a similar meaning to "lout" (an annoying or disruptive person, or even a prostitute).[citation needed] In around 1900 it shifted to its present meaning: one whose sense of morality drives them to deprive others of their sinful pleasures, especially liquor.[1] The term was particularly applied to members of temperance groups such as the antipodean branches of the Woman's Christian Temperance Union.

John Norton, editor of the Australian scandal newspaper, Truth, claimed he first used the word in 1899,[2] a claim supported by the OED.[3] However some authors[4] claim that the present meaning originated from an Australian temperance slogan, "We Only Want Social Evils Remedied." This apparent backronym is considered a "less credible provenance" by the ANU.[2]

The Australian writer C.J. Dennis defined it thus: 'Wowser: an ineffably pious person who mistakes this world for a penitentiary and himself for a warder'.
 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
73. When you find someone that wants unregulated guns, point them out to me.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:40 PM
Aug 2013

I'd say we'd both agree that teenagers having unfettered access to handguns is bad.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
46. It's too bad that most xenophobic narcissists/"gun rights advocates" never actually
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:14 PM
Aug 2013

travel outside the US to understand just how dumb the whole gun worship thing looks when viewed from places that don't lose 30,000 people a year to guns.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
53. If there's anything gun nuts hate almost as much as gun control, it's people from foreign countries.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:17 PM
Aug 2013

The whole existence of the rest of the civilized world, where gun laws are rational, and gun violence is some tiny fraction of what we have in the US, is a thread to the gun ideology. Unfortunately, the ignorance and xenophobia in this country is too strong to hope that we might actually learn something from other countries.

noiretextatique

(27,275 posts)
69. +1000
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:37 PM
Aug 2013

just look at all the "who cares what that ferriner thinks" comments in this thread. he's absolutely correct, of course.

Squinch

(50,955 posts)
76. Exactly! The issue people here are having is that someone is pointing at us and saying,
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:57 PM
Aug 2013

"those people are plum crazy, and their guns are the source of the crazy." Which of course is true.

And they know their arguments and stances on gun control are the source of it.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
54. He's right, and Australia's 1996 gun laws would be perfect for the longterm future of this country.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:18 PM
Aug 2013

Short-term, we'll have to listen to those who can't leave home without a gun, or go home and relax without a weapons cache to stroke. Time to quit coddling these people.

malaise

(269,053 posts)
74. And he's right but he's lucky
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:41 PM
Aug 2013

What if Australia traded places with Jamaica - then he'd know how the American gun culture spreads like a cholera virus.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
78. Then why doesn't Canada have a worse problem than Jamaica?
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:57 PM
Aug 2013

Jamaica is an island more than a hundred miles from the nearest US territory.
It has near-medieval levels of crime and violence.

Canada (for those that haven't noticed) is immediately adjacent to the US.
It has far lower rates of crime and violence.

So much for you "cholera virus" theory...

Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #78)

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
84. And then there's Mexico.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:00 PM
Aug 2013

And even in Canada, a lot of the guns used in homicides come from the US.

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