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Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:35 AM

Daniel Ellsberg Sees Bradley Manning's Conviction As The BEGINNING OF THE POLICE STATE




The NSA surveillance of millions of emails and phone calls. The dogged pursuit of whistleblower Edward Snowden across the globe, regardless of the diplomatic fallout. And the sentencing of Bradley Manning to 35 years in prison for giving a cache of government files to the website WikiLeaks. Pentagon Papers whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg sees these events as signs that the United States is becoming a police state.

"We have not only the capability of a police state, but certain beginnings of it right now," Ellsberg said. "And I absolutely agree with Edward Snowden. It's worth a person's life, prospect of assassination, or life in prison or life in exile -- it's worth that to try to restore our liberties and make this a democratic country."


cont'


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/22/daniel-ellsberg-bradley-manning_n_3793199.html

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Reply Daniel Ellsberg Sees Bradley Manning's Conviction As The BEGINNING OF THE POLICE STATE (Original post)
Segami Aug 2013 OP
Scuba Aug 2013 #1
DeSwiss Aug 2013 #22
City Lights Aug 2013 #23
Segami Aug 2013 #2
dgibby Aug 2013 #3
polichick Aug 2013 #20
Segami Aug 2013 #5
Cryptoad Aug 2013 #37
sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #42
Cryptoad Aug 2013 #46
sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #47
Segami Aug 2013 #48
sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #49
rhett o rick Aug 2013 #54
Javaman Aug 2013 #4
malthaussen Aug 2013 #6
L0oniX Aug 2013 #30
backscatter712 Aug 2013 #7
LuvNewcastle Aug 2013 #12
LineLineReply I
heaven05 Aug 2013 #17
Nay Aug 2013 #29
Adrahil Aug 2013 #8
MNBrewer Aug 2013 #9
cleanhippie Aug 2013 #13
Adrahil Aug 2013 #25
cleanhippie Aug 2013 #31
Adrahil Aug 2013 #39
olegramps Aug 2013 #14
Adrahil Aug 2013 #27
sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #43
4Q2u2 Aug 2013 #52
Segami Aug 2013 #10
dgibby Aug 2013 #33
polichick Aug 2013 #38
Th1onein Aug 2013 #61
libodem Aug 2013 #11
Aerows Aug 2013 #15
HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #16
RobinA Aug 2013 #34
HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #40
felix_numinous Aug 2013 #18
Segami Aug 2013 #19
G_j Aug 2013 #21
DeSwiss Aug 2013 #24
Wash. state Desk Jet Aug 2013 #26
LuvNewcastle Aug 2013 #51
Wash. state Desk Jet Aug 2013 #62
LuvNewcastle Aug 2013 #63
L0oniX Aug 2013 #28
Cryptoad Aug 2013 #32
RobinA Aug 2013 #35
Cryptoad Aug 2013 #36
HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #41
morningfog Aug 2013 #44
LiberalAndProud Aug 2013 #50
Octafish Aug 2013 #64
DisgustipatedinCA Aug 2013 #66
Safetykitten Aug 2013 #45
truebluegreen Aug 2013 #53
rhett o rick Aug 2013 #55
truebluegreen Aug 2013 #57
rhett o rick Aug 2013 #56
Octafish Aug 2013 #58
indepat Aug 2013 #59
michigandem58 Aug 2013 #60
Octafish Aug 2013 #65
DisgustipatedinCA Aug 2013 #67
Octafish Aug 2013 #70
gulliver Aug 2013 #68
treestar Aug 2013 #69

Response to Segami (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:47 AM

1. He's wrong. It started a long time ago.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #1)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:03 PM

22. Agreed.

- The last iteration having begun around 1910 on Jekyll Island.


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Response to Scuba (Reply #1)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:03 PM

23. Yup. nt

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:49 AM

2. As a candidate in 2008, Barack Obama.....

...praised instances of whistle-blowing as "acts of courage and patriotism." Since becoming president, however, his administration has charged more people under the Espionage Act than all other presidents combined.

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Response to Segami (Reply #2)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:52 AM

3. Shape shifter.

Just when you think you recognize him, he morphs into something else altogether. Very disturbing.

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Response to dgibby (Reply #3)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:57 AM

20. "Shape shifter" - exactly!

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Response to Segami (Reply #2)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:07 AM

5. Obama praises instances of whistle-blowing as

"acts of courage and patriotism."


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Response to Segami (Reply #2)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:48 PM

37. seems you don't know the difference between a whistle blower and a common thief nt

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Response to Cryptoad (Reply #37)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 01:13 PM

42. Is Ellsberg a Whistle Blower?

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #42)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 01:29 PM

46. Is the Sky Blue?

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Response to Cryptoad (Reply #46)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 02:02 PM

47. Good, now we are getting somewhere. Can you explain why what Ellsberg did is different

to what Manning did? Did Ellsberg steal any docs?

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #47)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 02:56 PM

48. Yes, the sky is blue consisting of many shades of such.

But, Daniel Ellsberg has been quite often referred to as the "Vietnam-era whistleblower". Not a "common thief" as some have labeled Snowdon. Why are they any different?

Best to get comfy and ready for more of the 'Joseph Goebbels' rinse n' spin theater.

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Response to Segami (Reply #48)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 03:08 PM

49. I didn't expect an answer. Not unless Ellsberg gets firmly and permanently thrown under

the bus. Which is more than likely to happen. Every other credible person who has dared to form an opinion different from the government's, has been.

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Response to Cryptoad (Reply #37)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 06:45 PM

54. That "common thief" got 35 years in prison. More time than those that actually sold information to

our enemies. The sentence was a warning to others that dare speak truth to power. Democracy needs transparency. Authoritarianism needs secrecy. I support Democracy.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:00 AM

4. Beginning?

reenforces it.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:14 AM

6. Then Mr Ellsberg has been inattentive. n/t

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #6)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:23 PM

30. He's been busy with that pole dancer friend of Snowden. n/t

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:16 AM

7. Welcome to Weimar America.

All it'll take is one more economic crash, or one more disaster like 9/11 that's suitable for use as a Reichstag Fire, and the entire nation will be on total lockdown, and will likely remain that way for decades.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #7)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:55 AM

12. It could be done fairly quickly with all the preparations they've made.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #7)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:40 AM

17. I

think you are right. Wait for it. Wait for it. Ka-blam, police state. Corporate, fascist ,RWtheocratic police state.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #7)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:22 PM

29. Yep, all it will take is another disaster, real or fabricated, to bring the whole police

state into everyone's face 24/7. There will be plenty of hired hormonal males all too happy to put that historic boot in your face. And all of us who've been yelling about this for years can say, "I told you so." A pyrrhic victory, for sure, but in the modern stew of computers, cameras, hitech everything, it was going to be pyrrhic.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:21 AM

8. I will say this....

... there is a difference between whistle-blowing and indiscriminate release of classified information to a 3rd party. Manning would have more of my sympathy is he/she had been more targeted in his/her releases. There really are bad guys in the world, and some of the information Manning released put the people trying to deal with them at risk. That was a mistake.

Unfortunately, the noise over the bad he did has almost completely drowned out the alarm he raised.

I agree with Ellsberg that there is something to be concerned about. As more of life goes wireless, more and more of our life is vulnerable not just to identity thieves, but to those who would interfere without privacy all in the name of security. I mean, just note the ridiculous, and largely ineffective, procedures TSA at the airports.

One answer, of course, is that we need to quit being the World's Policeman and sticking our nose in everywhere. While we're worried about selling more F-16's to the Egyptians, the Chinese are building railroads across Africa. Which one do you think will have more future impact on Global influence?

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #8)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:39 AM

9. "put the people trying to deal with them at risk"... no, not really.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #8)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:55 AM

13. Who was put "at risk", and how do you know that?

Because the government told you so?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #13)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:06 PM

25. Of course not

No, of course not. He mentioned names and methods in working local persons who assisted our forces in country. That is an OBVIOUS problem.

Do you believe ANY information is sensitive enough that should be protected by classification? And if so, do think there shpould be consequences for revealing leigitimately classified information? In the hundreds of thousands of documents Manning leaked, do you think none of it was legitimately classified, and if not, why not? Becuase Manning and Assange told you so?

Let's avoid extreme positions.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #25)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:30 PM

31. Yes, lets avoid extreme positions.

And while we come out from behind our bunkers, lets remind ourselves that the real problem lies with classifying everything in the name of "security", and that whistleblowers who expose the nonsense that Manning an Snowden have need protection and understanding, first and foremost.
Then, lets turn our attention to the real problem, which is the police/security state we are waking up to and what we are goin to do about it.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #31)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 01:04 PM

39. I would agree that we tend to over-classify.


I think there is a tendency to classify information that is merely sensitive. And where the information is embarrassing, it's even more tempting. A good example is civilian casualties.... there is a genuine conflict there. On the one hand, we SHOULD acknowledge when our guys screw up, or even when one goes rogue and deliberately murders civilians. OTOH, the release of that information improperly handled can result to putting our troops in danger. And couple of green on blue incidents have been traced to such things. It's a tightrope, and for my part, one reason why we severely limit our involvement in such conflicts. The military is best used as a hammer. It can accomplish a lot with sudden violence, especially if your problem looks like a nail. But it is not a screwdriver, a tool of more subtlety. One of the main problems we have is that there is too much of a tendency to look at the military as the tool by which anything can be accomplished. After all, we have the best military in the world by far (we had better, for all we pay for it!) Look at Syria, with John McCain practically begging Obama to get engaged militarily. While I'm shocked at Assad's atrocities there, I admire Obama's resistance to get engaged there militarily.

And on to your point. Our tendency to get mired into every conflict at one level or another (Huge Armies, Spec Ops, or Unmanned Aerial Vehicles) means we have developed a long and deep list enemies.... enemies who understand that to fight us, they have to fight an asymmetrical conflict (read: terrorism). In a world where any terrorist success just HAS to be someone's fault (I'm looking at you, 24 hour news channels), we have become very risk averse. Philosophically, most people would agree that there is some cost and risk to living in a free and open society, but try making that argument after another 9/11 happens. People just won't accept it, having been whipped into a frenzy of paranoia.

I think fighting the rising police state doesn't mean we need more Mannings or Snowdens. Frankly, any outrage they generate will be swept away without a trace in the wake of another spectacular terrorist event. Instead, we must work to undermine the paranoia. Rather than arguing that we don't need such measures to protect ourselves, we need to argue that such events, as spectacular as they are, represent a relatively small risk to us individually, and they are certainly not worth sacrificing every one of our values. We need to emphasize that the President's primary job is NOT to "Keep America Safe," But to protect our liberties.

And oh yeah... we need to restructure our foreign policy to not view every problem as a nail...


Sorry for the Wall of Text.... this is a subject I care deeply about.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #8)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:03 AM

14. We were aghast that Cheney outed a CIA agent, put hail Manning as patriotic.

This does not mitigate justifiable concern about the unjustifiable intrusion into our citizens' private lives. Put to totally disregard the potential harm that Manning's indiscriminate release of information is also unreasonable. President Obama has come under increasing criticism, however, if I was entrusted with the lives and welfare of the nation's citizens, I believe that I would be inclined to side with caution. It is a daunting responsibility and regardless of the actions that would be taken there will always be room for criticism.

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Response to olegramps (Reply #14)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:19 PM

27. I can agree with you.

I don't think it mitigates the instrusion. I also think the exposure of Unconstitutional activities does not eliminate the responsibility to protect legitimately protected data. The problem with both Manning AND Snowden is that they sucked every bit of data they could, whether or not it exposed Unconstitutional activities. I tend not to support the ends justifying the means in either direction.

I do not support the wholesale violation of privacy in the name of security, and I do not support releaseing legitimately classified data to reveal such violations, especially when they are often unconnected to the claims of inpropriety. I do think the reaction to Manning has been more severe than such a case would normally warrant. I think some of that is frustration that the real object of irritation, Assange, is beyond their reach.

But I wish Manning luck. He did what he thought was right, and I do not think he intended harm to the country. Assange, OTOH, I think DOES wish America ill will and I'm sorry Manning got tied up with him. I wish there had been a way for Manning to address his concerns without this outcome.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #8)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 01:21 PM

43. The material released by Manning was determined to have cause not damage.

Talk to Gates about it, he disagrees with you.

Manning knew what he was releasing. He COULD have released material that would have harmed people, but deliberately chose not to do so.

All of the material is CATEGORIZED into various levels of 'classification'. It would not take a rocked scientist to know what was 'top secret' and what was not. He had access to that material.

As Ellsberg explained, he knew what he was releasing. He clearly did not want to harm the country as he stated himself. Which is why they were unable to point to any specific incidence where the material harmed anyone.

As Gates said 'was it embarrassing, yes, harmful, no'.

Iow, it was like going to the library where the books are categorized. If you want to find some true crime material, you can go directly to that category and know you won't find 'Charlotte's Web' there.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #43)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 03:42 PM

52. Can't have it both ways

A person states that the material released harmed Allies, and someone snidely asks why, because the government said so.
Then you quote a government official saying it did no harm. Which is it? What side of the Government's mouth are we listening to this week. Or is it just the ones that support what you like?

DOD policy is that once Manning views, accesses, or downloads any material from anywhere to his Classified computer all that info is automatically Classified. It could have been a Barney Video, it is then Classified Material and it does not take a rocket scientist to know that they were breaking their protocol and the law. One by compromising a Classified computer with Unauthorized information.
Secondly, just because someone has a certain level Security Clearance does not allow them to view what ever they want. It is always based on "need to know". That is taught day 1 in intel school which Manning was a graduate.

Lastly, the Apache Video Manning release was accessed from the Army JAG folder(not in his "need to know" purview) and was an ongoing investigation when he release this Classified information. Just because no one was immediately hurt does not also mitigate the possibility of future actions against people who helped or intel gained by the leaks.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:40 AM

10. On June 8th, Obama's Whistleblower-Protection Promise Was Removed from Official Website




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Response to Segami (Reply #10)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:32 PM

33. And to think I trusted him.

Fool me once. Not going to happen again, that's for sure.

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Response to Segami (Reply #10)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:51 PM

38. Wow - I wonder if he has trouble sleeping these days.

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Response to polichick (Reply #38)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:33 PM

61. I can't even look at him anymore. I'm so pissed.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:55 AM

11. Yep

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:07 AM

15. Look at who Obama appointed to "oversee" the NSA!

A man that openly advocates infiltrating discussion taking place and injecting the government's approved propaganda. "Hey, this guy is going to "oversee" the NSA, and he's going to tell you better lies from now on!"

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:12 AM

16. As much as I admire and respect Ellsberg (probably about as much as any other living

 

human being), and as opposed as I am to Manning's persecution and prosecution, I must respectfully disagree with Ellsberg. The beginnings of the 'police state' were manifested when the federal government's Department of Homeland Security collaborated with and shared intelligence with the TBTF banks about Occupy protests and protesters. That was the tell that the First Amendment (freedom of speech and of assembly) was a goner.

Manning may have leaked his files before Occupy sprang into existence in September 2011, but Manning's conviction followed the federally coordinated smash-up of the Occupy encampments nationwide, starting in October 2011 and proceeding apace.

A trivial dispute, I suppose, as we both agree we're seeing the nascence of the police state and merely disagree overthe specifics of its origins.

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #16)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:36 PM

34. I Gotta Go With

the creation of the Dept. of Homeland Security and the Patriot Act as the true beginning, or maybe the point where a drift in one direction turned a corner and picked up too much momentum to be easily stopped. That's when the phrase "1930's Germany" came to my mind and I purchased a passport for the first time.

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Response to RobinA (Reply #34)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 01:05 PM

40. That 'Department of Homeland Security' does have a post-Jan 30, 1933 ring to it, doesn't it? I think

 

of those two actions as the 'Enabling Acts,' requiring execution but laying the ground work.

I totally understand your decision to secure a passport. i believe if and when the shit hits the fan that I shall instead stay here (my passport having expired many years ago and never renewed it) to struggle on behalf of workers and the working class until I am interned (or worse).

You might enjoy H Stuart Hughes' The Sea Change, about the emigration of European intellectuals to America starting in 1930. Apparently, the book is now out of print, but Amazon has some used copies available and I'm sure it is also available through libraries.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:55 AM

18. Saying ' We are in a police state'

would get him discredited (and who knows what else). He has to parse his words, and choose them carefully.

I think Daniel Ellsburg knows perfectly well that these tactics have already started.

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Response to felix_numinous (Reply #18)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:56 AM

19. +1000 I agree!

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Response to felix_numinous (Reply #18)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:02 PM

21. agreed

his words were carefully chosen, while still conveying the urgency of his concerns.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:04 PM

24. K&R

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:12 PM

26. I don't think that is what it all means,

although our individual freedoms are and always have been a high stakes issue.Manning wants to move on with his life who ever he thinks he is. The question remaining is simply what does this all mean.Although the question itself is as far away form simple as it gets.

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Response to Wash. state Desk Jet (Reply #26)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 03:37 PM

51. "Who ever he thinks he is?"

That's a really shitty thing to say. Trans people have a hard enough time in their lives without people making remarks like that about them.

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Response to LuvNewcastle (Reply #51)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:50 PM

62. I don't know who he thinks he is or who he says he isn't.

Last edited Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:28 AM - Edit history (1)

As it seems he or she which ever, excepted responsibility for what was done or wrong full doings and further the individual excepts the terms of punishment .Left off with that there and the question remains. The question is ,what does this all mean.

Thats it ,.

Now than,if my wording is not exactly politically correct,than know this,this is the democratic underground.

What this all means is what I want to know -find out. Moving forward.

You may note ,I used the word (individual)- perhaps that seems more so politically correct.

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Response to Wash. state Desk Jet (Reply #62)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:25 AM

63. Okay, that made absolutely no sense.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:22 PM

28. USA ...United Stasi of America. Is this US Democracy an illusion yet? n/t

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:30 PM

32. I know Ellsberg

He's a Dick head,,,, he will fit right in with the Paulist Theater !

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Response to Cryptoad (Reply #32)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:40 PM

35. Any Dickheadishness

on the part of Ellsberg is purely irrevelevant. His actions speak for themselves.

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Response to RobinA (Reply #35)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:45 PM

36. Trust me

he has never done anything that was not for his own Glory!

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Response to Cryptoad (Reply #32)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 01:10 PM

41. Whoosh - that's the sound of Ellsberg being thrown under the bus. Who's next? I vote

 

for Martin Luther King, Jr or Mahatma Gandhi.

in case it's necessary, per Poe's Law.

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Response to Cryptoad (Reply #32)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 01:24 PM

44. Riiiiight. I smell bullshit.

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Response to Cryptoad (Reply #32)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 03:15 PM

50. If true that you know him, your post reveals more about you than about Ellsberg's character.

Daniel can stand on his record, as far as I'm concerned.

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Response to Cryptoad (Reply #32)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 12:29 PM

64. What a bullshit smear.

Nice touch, adding Paulist Theater, too. Professional grade crapola.

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Response to Cryptoad (Reply #32)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 12:37 PM

66. I'm surprised you're still here.

I trust this is just a temporary condition. Ellsburg is a dickhead, and you know him personally? I do believe you're acting like a 12-year old, either because you actually are, or because you function as such.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 01:28 PM

45. But I will still be able to drive my Prius to Costco right?

 

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 04:50 PM

53. Not the first step; but maybe the first undisguised step.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #53)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 06:45 PM

55. Big step. They are getting bolder. nm

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #55)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 07:02 PM

57. Yep.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 06:47 PM

56. The Authoritarian State of USofA has crossed the Rubicon. They arent turning back.

Expect their actions to be more blatant.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 07:12 PM

58. K&R for Truth Tellers

Thank you, Segami.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:08 PM

59. A compelling reason a police state is a reality is big brother knows the people are

beginning more and more to realize the people are being royally f*cked over by their government for almost the exclusive benefit of the economic royalists, as FDR called them, to wit: the oligarchs, the plutocrats, and the other uber-wealthy.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:19 PM

60. THIS MUST BE SERIOUS

 

CAPS AND EVERYTHING

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Response to michigandem58 (Reply #60)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 12:36 PM

65. I guess to people who believe in democracy, yeah, it would be serious.

To you? Who knows what you get out of it.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #65)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 12:40 PM

67. I love his MLK avatar, but what do I know...I'd also like to see GW Bush in a Che t-shirt.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #67)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 02:25 PM

70. You know who wears Che's Rolex?

Poppy Bush's CIA Operation 40 to Iran-Contra fixer Felix Rodriguez, lower left in the photo, with Porter Goss in profile putting the arm on him:



CIA man recounts Che Guevara's death

"Max Gomez" has haunted America since the Bay of Pigs-Operation 40-ZR/RIFLE and on through to Dallas, Vietnam, Iran-Contra, BCCI and who knows what else. A hero of the feudal lord class. A zero to those who actually believe in democracy.

Coca Contra Airport Manager

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 12:46 PM

68. I would love to see a discussion with Ellsberg, Chomsky,...

...and Rand Paul. If we could find a way to contain the reaction, the nut rays could be used for clean energy.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 12:51 PM

69. So conviction in court martial of a serviceperson

by the rules of that court is the beginning of a police state?

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