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Segami

(14,923 posts)
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:35 AM Aug 2013

Daniel Ellsberg Sees Bradley Manning's Conviction As The BEGINNING OF THE POLICE STATE




The NSA surveillance of millions of emails and phone calls. The dogged pursuit of whistleblower Edward Snowden across the globe, regardless of the diplomatic fallout. And the sentencing of Bradley Manning to 35 years in prison for giving a cache of government files to the website WikiLeaks. Pentagon Papers whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg sees these events as signs that the United States is becoming a police state.

"We have not only the capability of a police state, but certain beginnings of it right now," Ellsberg said. "And I absolutely agree with Edward Snowden. It's worth a person's life, prospect of assassination, or life in prison or life in exile -- it's worth that to try to restore our liberties and make this a democratic country."


cont'


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/22/daniel-ellsberg-bradley-manning_n_3793199.html
70 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Daniel Ellsberg Sees Bradley Manning's Conviction As The BEGINNING OF THE POLICE STATE (Original Post) Segami Aug 2013 OP
He's wrong. It started a long time ago. Scuba Aug 2013 #1
Agreed. DeSwiss Aug 2013 #22
Yup. nt City Lights Aug 2013 #23
As a candidate in 2008, Barack Obama..... Segami Aug 2013 #2
Shape shifter. dgibby Aug 2013 #3
"Shape shifter" - exactly! polichick Aug 2013 #20
Obama praises instances of whistle-blowing as Segami Aug 2013 #5
seems you don't know the difference between a whistle blower and a common thief nt Cryptoad Aug 2013 #37
Is Ellsberg a Whistle Blower? sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #42
Is the Sky Blue? Cryptoad Aug 2013 #46
Good, now we are getting somewhere. Can you explain why what Ellsberg did is different sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #47
Yes, the sky is blue consisting of many shades of such. Segami Aug 2013 #48
I didn't expect an answer. Not unless Ellsberg gets firmly and permanently thrown under sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #49
That "common thief" got 35 years in prison. More time than those that actually sold information to rhett o rick Aug 2013 #54
Beginning? Javaman Aug 2013 #4
Then Mr Ellsberg has been inattentive. n/t malthaussen Aug 2013 #6
He's been busy with that pole dancer friend of Snowden. n/t L0oniX Aug 2013 #30
Welcome to Weimar America. backscatter712 Aug 2013 #7
It could be done fairly quickly with all the preparations they've made. LuvNewcastle Aug 2013 #12
I heaven05 Aug 2013 #17
Yep, all it will take is another disaster, real or fabricated, to bring the whole police Nay Aug 2013 #29
I will say this.... Adrahil Aug 2013 #8
"put the people trying to deal with them at risk"... no, not really. MNBrewer Aug 2013 #9
Who was put "at risk", and how do you know that? cleanhippie Aug 2013 #13
Of course not Adrahil Aug 2013 #25
Yes, lets avoid extreme positions. cleanhippie Aug 2013 #31
I would agree that we tend to over-classify. Adrahil Aug 2013 #39
We were aghast that Cheney outed a CIA agent, put hail Manning as patriotic. olegramps Aug 2013 #14
I can agree with you. Adrahil Aug 2013 #27
The material released by Manning was determined to have cause not damage. sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #43
Can't have it both ways 4Q2u2 Aug 2013 #52
On June 8th, Obama's Whistleblower-Protection Promise Was Removed from Official Website Segami Aug 2013 #10
And to think I trusted him. dgibby Aug 2013 #33
Wow - I wonder if he has trouble sleeping these days. polichick Aug 2013 #38
I can't even look at him anymore. I'm so pissed. Th1onein Aug 2013 #61
Yep libodem Aug 2013 #11
Look at who Obama appointed to "oversee" the NSA! Aerows Aug 2013 #15
As much as I admire and respect Ellsberg (probably about as much as any other living HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #16
I Gotta Go With RobinA Aug 2013 #34
That 'Department of Homeland Security' does have a post-Jan 30, 1933 ring to it, doesn't it? I think HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #40
Saying ' We are in a police state' felix_numinous Aug 2013 #18
+1000 I agree! Segami Aug 2013 #19
agreed G_j Aug 2013 #21
K&R DeSwiss Aug 2013 #24
I don't think that is what it all means, Wash. state Desk Jet Aug 2013 #26
"Who ever he thinks he is?" LuvNewcastle Aug 2013 #51
I don't know who he thinks he is or who he says he isn't. Wash. state Desk Jet Aug 2013 #62
Okay, that made absolutely no sense. LuvNewcastle Aug 2013 #63
USA ...United Stasi of America. Is this US Democracy an illusion yet? n/t L0oniX Aug 2013 #28
I know Ellsberg Cryptoad Aug 2013 #32
Any Dickheadishness RobinA Aug 2013 #35
Trust me Cryptoad Aug 2013 #36
Whoosh - that's the sound of Ellsberg being thrown under the bus. Who's next? I vote HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #41
Riiiiight. I smell bullshit. morningfog Aug 2013 #44
If true that you know him, your post reveals more about you than about Ellsberg's character. LiberalAndProud Aug 2013 #50
What a bullshit smear. Octafish Aug 2013 #64
I'm surprised you're still here. DisgustipatedinCA Aug 2013 #66
But I will still be able to drive my Prius to Costco right? Safetykitten Aug 2013 #45
Not the first step; but maybe the first undisguised step. truebluegreen Aug 2013 #53
Big step. They are getting bolder. nm rhett o rick Aug 2013 #55
Yep. truebluegreen Aug 2013 #57
The Authoritarian State of USofA has crossed the Rubicon. They arent turning back. rhett o rick Aug 2013 #56
K&R for Truth Tellers Octafish Aug 2013 #58
A compelling reason a police state is a reality is big brother knows the people are indepat Aug 2013 #59
THIS MUST BE SERIOUS michigandem58 Aug 2013 #60
I guess to people who believe in democracy, yeah, it would be serious. Octafish Aug 2013 #65
I love his MLK avatar, but what do I know...I'd also like to see GW Bush in a Che t-shirt. DisgustipatedinCA Aug 2013 #67
You know who wears Che's Rolex? Octafish Aug 2013 #70
I would love to see a discussion with Ellsberg, Chomsky,... gulliver Aug 2013 #68
So conviction in court martial of a serviceperson treestar Aug 2013 #69
 

Segami

(14,923 posts)
2. As a candidate in 2008, Barack Obama.....
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:49 AM
Aug 2013
...praised instances of whistle-blowing as "acts of courage and patriotism." Since becoming president, however, his administration has charged more people under the Espionage Act than all other presidents combined.

dgibby

(9,474 posts)
3. Shape shifter.
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:52 AM
Aug 2013

Just when you think you recognize him, he morphs into something else altogether. Very disturbing.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
47. Good, now we are getting somewhere. Can you explain why what Ellsberg did is different
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 02:02 PM
Aug 2013

to what Manning did? Did Ellsberg steal any docs?

 

Segami

(14,923 posts)
48. Yes, the sky is blue consisting of many shades of such.
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 02:56 PM
Aug 2013

But, Daniel Ellsberg has been quite often referred to as the "Vietnam-era whistleblower". Not a "common thief" as some have labeled Snowdon. Why are they any different?

Best to get comfy and ready for more of the 'Joseph Goebbels' rinse n' spin theater.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
49. I didn't expect an answer. Not unless Ellsberg gets firmly and permanently thrown under
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 03:08 PM
Aug 2013

the bus. Which is more than likely to happen. Every other credible person who has dared to form an opinion different from the government's, has been.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
54. That "common thief" got 35 years in prison. More time than those that actually sold information to
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 06:45 PM
Aug 2013

our enemies. The sentence was a warning to others that dare speak truth to power. Democracy needs transparency. Authoritarianism needs secrecy. I support Democracy.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
7. Welcome to Weimar America.
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:16 AM
Aug 2013

All it'll take is one more economic crash, or one more disaster like 9/11 that's suitable for use as a Reichstag Fire, and the entire nation will be on total lockdown, and will likely remain that way for decades.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
17. I
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:40 AM
Aug 2013

think you are right. Wait for it. Wait for it. Ka-blam, police state. Corporate, fascist ,RWtheocratic police state.

Nay

(12,051 posts)
29. Yep, all it will take is another disaster, real or fabricated, to bring the whole police
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:22 PM
Aug 2013

state into everyone's face 24/7. There will be plenty of hired hormonal males all too happy to put that historic boot in your face. And all of us who've been yelling about this for years can say, "I told you so." A pyrrhic victory, for sure, but in the modern stew of computers, cameras, hitech everything, it was going to be pyrrhic.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
8. I will say this....
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:21 AM
Aug 2013

... there is a difference between whistle-blowing and indiscriminate release of classified information to a 3rd party. Manning would have more of my sympathy is he/she had been more targeted in his/her releases. There really are bad guys in the world, and some of the information Manning released put the people trying to deal with them at risk. That was a mistake.

Unfortunately, the noise over the bad he did has almost completely drowned out the alarm he raised.

I agree with Ellsberg that there is something to be concerned about. As more of life goes wireless, more and more of our life is vulnerable not just to identity thieves, but to those who would interfere without privacy all in the name of security. I mean, just note the ridiculous, and largely ineffective, procedures TSA at the airports.

One answer, of course, is that we need to quit being the World's Policeman and sticking our nose in everywhere. While we're worried about selling more F-16's to the Egyptians, the Chinese are building railroads across Africa. Which one do you think will have more future impact on Global influence?

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
25. Of course not
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:06 PM
Aug 2013

No, of course not. He mentioned names and methods in working local persons who assisted our forces in country. That is an OBVIOUS problem.

Do you believe ANY information is sensitive enough that should be protected by classification? And if so, do think there shpould be consequences for revealing leigitimately classified information? In the hundreds of thousands of documents Manning leaked, do you think none of it was legitimately classified, and if not, why not? Becuase Manning and Assange told you so?

Let's avoid extreme positions.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
31. Yes, lets avoid extreme positions.
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:30 PM
Aug 2013

And while we come out from behind our bunkers, lets remind ourselves that the real problem lies with classifying everything in the name of "security", and that whistleblowers who expose the nonsense that Manning an Snowden have need protection and understanding, first and foremost.
Then, lets turn our attention to the real problem, which is the police/security state we are waking up to and what we are goin to do about it.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
39. I would agree that we tend to over-classify.
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 01:04 PM
Aug 2013

I think there is a tendency to classify information that is merely sensitive. And where the information is embarrassing, it's even more tempting. A good example is civilian casualties.... there is a genuine conflict there. On the one hand, we SHOULD acknowledge when our guys screw up, or even when one goes rogue and deliberately murders civilians. OTOH, the release of that information improperly handled can result to putting our troops in danger. And couple of green on blue incidents have been traced to such things. It's a tightrope, and for my part, one reason why we severely limit our involvement in such conflicts. The military is best used as a hammer. It can accomplish a lot with sudden violence, especially if your problem looks like a nail. But it is not a screwdriver, a tool of more subtlety. One of the main problems we have is that there is too much of a tendency to look at the military as the tool by which anything can be accomplished. After all, we have the best military in the world by far (we had better, for all we pay for it!) Look at Syria, with John McCain practically begging Obama to get engaged militarily. While I'm shocked at Assad's atrocities there, I admire Obama's resistance to get engaged there militarily.

And on to your point. Our tendency to get mired into every conflict at one level or another (Huge Armies, Spec Ops, or Unmanned Aerial Vehicles) means we have developed a long and deep list enemies.... enemies who understand that to fight us, they have to fight an asymmetrical conflict (read: terrorism). In a world where any terrorist success just HAS to be someone's fault (I'm looking at you, 24 hour news channels), we have become very risk averse. Philosophically, most people would agree that there is some cost and risk to living in a free and open society, but try making that argument after another 9/11 happens. People just won't accept it, having been whipped into a frenzy of paranoia.

I think fighting the rising police state doesn't mean we need more Mannings or Snowdens. Frankly, any outrage they generate will be swept away without a trace in the wake of another spectacular terrorist event. Instead, we must work to undermine the paranoia. Rather than arguing that we don't need such measures to protect ourselves, we need to argue that such events, as spectacular as they are, represent a relatively small risk to us individually, and they are certainly not worth sacrificing every one of our values. We need to emphasize that the President's primary job is NOT to "Keep America Safe," But to protect our liberties.

And oh yeah... we need to restructure our foreign policy to not view every problem as a nail...


Sorry for the Wall of Text.... this is a subject I care deeply about.

olegramps

(8,200 posts)
14. We were aghast that Cheney outed a CIA agent, put hail Manning as patriotic.
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:03 AM
Aug 2013

This does not mitigate justifiable concern about the unjustifiable intrusion into our citizens' private lives. Put to totally disregard the potential harm that Manning's indiscriminate release of information is also unreasonable. President Obama has come under increasing criticism, however, if I was entrusted with the lives and welfare of the nation's citizens, I believe that I would be inclined to side with caution. It is a daunting responsibility and regardless of the actions that would be taken there will always be room for criticism.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
27. I can agree with you.
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:19 PM
Aug 2013

I don't think it mitigates the instrusion. I also think the exposure of Unconstitutional activities does not eliminate the responsibility to protect legitimately protected data. The problem with both Manning AND Snowden is that they sucked every bit of data they could, whether or not it exposed Unconstitutional activities. I tend not to support the ends justifying the means in either direction.

I do not support the wholesale violation of privacy in the name of security, and I do not support releaseing legitimately classified data to reveal such violations, especially when they are often unconnected to the claims of inpropriety. I do think the reaction to Manning has been more severe than such a case would normally warrant. I think some of that is frustration that the real object of irritation, Assange, is beyond their reach.

But I wish Manning luck. He did what he thought was right, and I do not think he intended harm to the country. Assange, OTOH, I think DOES wish America ill will and I'm sorry Manning got tied up with him. I wish there had been a way for Manning to address his concerns without this outcome.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
43. The material released by Manning was determined to have cause not damage.
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 01:21 PM
Aug 2013

Talk to Gates about it, he disagrees with you.

Manning knew what he was releasing. He COULD have released material that would have harmed people, but deliberately chose not to do so.

All of the material is CATEGORIZED into various levels of 'classification'. It would not take a rocked scientist to know what was 'top secret' and what was not. He had access to that material.

As Ellsberg explained, he knew what he was releasing. He clearly did not want to harm the country as he stated himself. Which is why they were unable to point to any specific incidence where the material harmed anyone.

As Gates said 'was it embarrassing, yes, harmful, no'.

Iow, it was like going to the library where the books are categorized. If you want to find some true crime material, you can go directly to that category and know you won't find 'Charlotte's Web' there.

 

4Q2u2

(1,406 posts)
52. Can't have it both ways
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 03:42 PM
Aug 2013

A person states that the material released harmed Allies, and someone snidely asks why, because the government said so.
Then you quote a government official saying it did no harm. Which is it? What side of the Government's mouth are we listening to this week. Or is it just the ones that support what you like?

DOD policy is that once Manning views, accesses, or downloads any material from anywhere to his Classified computer all that info is automatically Classified. It could have been a Barney Video, it is then Classified Material and it does not take a rocket scientist to know that they were breaking their protocol and the law. One by compromising a Classified computer with Unauthorized information.
Secondly, just because someone has a certain level Security Clearance does not allow them to view what ever they want. It is always based on "need to know". That is taught day 1 in intel school which Manning was a graduate.

Lastly, the Apache Video Manning release was accessed from the Army JAG folder(not in his "need to know" purview) and was an ongoing investigation when he release this Classified information. Just because no one was immediately hurt does not also mitigate the possibility of future actions against people who helped or intel gained by the leaks.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
15. Look at who Obama appointed to "oversee" the NSA!
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:07 AM
Aug 2013

A man that openly advocates infiltrating discussion taking place and injecting the government's approved propaganda. "Hey, this guy is going to "oversee" the NSA, and he's going to tell you better lies from now on!"

 

HardTimes99

(2,049 posts)
16. As much as I admire and respect Ellsberg (probably about as much as any other living
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:12 AM
Aug 2013

human being), and as opposed as I am to Manning's persecution and prosecution, I must respectfully disagree with Ellsberg. The beginnings of the 'police state' were manifested when the federal government's Department of Homeland Security collaborated with and shared intelligence with the TBTF banks about Occupy protests and protesters. That was the tell that the First Amendment (freedom of speech and of assembly) was a goner.

Manning may have leaked his files before Occupy sprang into existence in September 2011, but Manning's conviction followed the federally coordinated smash-up of the Occupy encampments nationwide, starting in October 2011 and proceeding apace.

A trivial dispute, I suppose, as we both agree we're seeing the nascence of the police state and merely disagree overthe specifics of its origins.

RobinA

(9,893 posts)
34. I Gotta Go With
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:36 PM
Aug 2013

the creation of the Dept. of Homeland Security and the Patriot Act as the true beginning, or maybe the point where a drift in one direction turned a corner and picked up too much momentum to be easily stopped. That's when the phrase "1930's Germany" came to my mind and I purchased a passport for the first time.

 

HardTimes99

(2,049 posts)
40. That 'Department of Homeland Security' does have a post-Jan 30, 1933 ring to it, doesn't it? I think
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 01:05 PM
Aug 2013

of those two actions as the 'Enabling Acts,' requiring execution but laying the ground work.

I totally understand your decision to secure a passport. i believe if and when the shit hits the fan that I shall instead stay here (my passport having expired many years ago and never renewed it) to struggle on behalf of workers and the working class until I am interned (or worse).

You might enjoy H Stuart Hughes' The Sea Change, about the emigration of European intellectuals to America starting in 1930. Apparently, the book is now out of print, but Amazon has some used copies available and I'm sure it is also available through libraries.

felix_numinous

(5,198 posts)
18. Saying ' We are in a police state'
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:55 AM
Aug 2013

would get him discredited (and who knows what else). He has to parse his words, and choose them carefully.

I think Daniel Ellsburg knows perfectly well that these tactics have already started.

Wash. state Desk Jet

(3,426 posts)
26. I don't think that is what it all means,
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:12 PM
Aug 2013

although our individual freedoms are and always have been a high stakes issue.Manning wants to move on with his life who ever he thinks he is. The question remaining is simply what does this all mean.Although the question itself is as far away form simple as it gets.

LuvNewcastle

(16,846 posts)
51. "Who ever he thinks he is?"
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 03:37 PM
Aug 2013

That's a really shitty thing to say. Trans people have a hard enough time in their lives without people making remarks like that about them.

Wash. state Desk Jet

(3,426 posts)
62. I don't know who he thinks he is or who he says he isn't.
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:50 PM
Aug 2013

Last edited Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:28 AM - Edit history (1)

As it seems he or she which ever, excepted responsibility for what was done or wrong full doings and further the individual excepts the terms of punishment .Left off with that there and the question remains. The question is ,what does this all mean.

Thats it ,.

Now than,if my wording is not exactly politically correct,than know this,this is the democratic underground.

What this all means is what I want to know -find out. Moving forward.

You may note ,I used the word (individual)- perhaps that seems more so politically correct.

RobinA

(9,893 posts)
35. Any Dickheadishness
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:40 PM
Aug 2013

on the part of Ellsberg is purely irrevelevant. His actions speak for themselves.

 

HardTimes99

(2,049 posts)
41. Whoosh - that's the sound of Ellsberg being thrown under the bus. Who's next? I vote
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 01:10 PM
Aug 2013

for Martin Luther King, Jr or Mahatma Gandhi.

in case it's necessary, per Poe's Law.

LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
50. If true that you know him, your post reveals more about you than about Ellsberg's character.
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 03:15 PM
Aug 2013

Daniel can stand on his record, as far as I'm concerned.

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
66. I'm surprised you're still here.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 12:37 PM
Aug 2013

I trust this is just a temporary condition. Ellsburg is a dickhead, and you know him personally? I do believe you're acting like a 12-year old, either because you actually are, or because you function as such.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
56. The Authoritarian State of USofA has crossed the Rubicon. They arent turning back.
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 06:47 PM
Aug 2013

Expect their actions to be more blatant.

indepat

(20,899 posts)
59. A compelling reason a police state is a reality is big brother knows the people are
Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:08 PM
Aug 2013

beginning more and more to realize the people are being royally f*cked over by their government for almost the exclusive benefit of the economic royalists, as FDR called them, to wit: the oligarchs, the plutocrats, and the other uber-wealthy.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
65. I guess to people who believe in democracy, yeah, it would be serious.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 12:36 PM
Aug 2013

To you? Who knows what you get out of it.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
70. You know who wears Che's Rolex?
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 02:25 PM
Aug 2013

Poppy Bush's CIA Operation 40 to Iran-Contra fixer Felix Rodriguez, lower left in the photo, with Porter Goss in profile putting the arm on him:



CIA man recounts Che Guevara's death

"Max Gomez" has haunted America since the Bay of Pigs-Operation 40-ZR/RIFLE and on through to Dallas, Vietnam, Iran-Contra, BCCI and who knows what else. A hero of the feudal lord class. A zero to those who actually believe in democracy.

Coca Contra Airport Manager

gulliver

(13,180 posts)
68. I would love to see a discussion with Ellsberg, Chomsky,...
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 12:46 PM
Aug 2013

...and Rand Paul. If we could find a way to contain the reaction, the nut rays could be used for clean energy.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
69. So conviction in court martial of a serviceperson
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 12:51 PM
Aug 2013

by the rules of that court is the beginning of a police state?

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