Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

tabatha

(18,795 posts)
Sat Dec 17, 2011, 11:53 PM Dec 2011

Libya’s Civilian Toll, Denied by NATO

TRIPOLI, Libya — NATO’s seven-month air campaign in Libya, hailed by the alliance and many Libyans for blunting a lethal crackdown by Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi and helping to push him from power, came with an unrecognized toll: scores of civilian casualties the alliance has long refused to acknowledge or investigate.

By NATO’s telling during the war, and in statements since sorties ended on Oct. 31, the alliance-led operation was nearly flawless — a model air war that used high technology, meticulous planning and restraint to protect civilians from Colonel Qaddafi’s troops, which was the alliance’s mandate.

But an on-the-ground examination by The New York Times of airstrike sites across Libya — including interviews with survivors, doctors and witnesses, and the collection of munitions remnants, medical reports, death certificates and photographs — found credible accounts of dozens of civilians killed by NATO in many distinct attacks. The victims, including at least 29 women or children, often had been asleep in homes when the ordnance hit.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/18/world/africa/scores-of-unintended-casualties-in-nato-war-in-libya.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1#

Also, check out the interactive:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/12/16/world/africa/nato-airstrikes-in-libya.html#page/warehouses

This is a hard-hitting, and very accurate account of the errant NATO strikes.

8 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Libya’s Civilian Toll, Denied by NATO (Original Post) tabatha Dec 2011 OP
Additional excerpts. tabatha Dec 2011 #1
The gist of this article is what I have been saying all along. tabatha Dec 2011 #2
RT viewers also claim Obama was born in Kenya. TheWraith Dec 2011 #4
Whenever I watch an RT clip... ellisonz Dec 2011 #8
Remember the "massive atrocious criminal bombings"? joshcryer Dec 2011 #3
Was just about to post this. Puregonzo1188 Dec 2011 #5
What about the unvisited sites? jakeXT Dec 2011 #6
NATO intervention undoubtedly saved thousands of civilian lives. ellisonz Dec 2011 #7

tabatha

(18,795 posts)
1. Additional excerpts.
Sat Dec 17, 2011, 11:55 PM
Dec 2011

There are indications that the alliance took many steps to avoid harming civilians, and often did not damage civilian infrastructure useful to Colonel Qaddafi’s military. Elements of two American-led air campaigns in Iraq, in 1991 and 2003, appear to have been avoided, including attacks on electrical grids.

Such steps spared civilians certain hardships and risks that accompanied previous Western air-to-ground operations. NATO also said that allied forces did not use cluster munitions or ordnance containing depleted uranium, both of which pose health and environmental risks, in Libya at any time.

The alliance’s fixed-wing aircraft dropped only laser- or satellite-guided weapons, said Col. Gregory Julian, a NATO spokesman; no so-called dumb bombs were used.

While the overwhelming preponderance of strikes seemed to have hit their targets without killing noncombatants, many factors contributed to a run of fatal mistakes. These included a technically faulty bomb, poor or dated intelligence and the near absence of experienced military personnel on the ground who could help direct airstrikes.

tabatha

(18,795 posts)
2. The gist of this article is what I have been saying all along.
Sat Dec 17, 2011, 11:57 PM
Dec 2011

Every care was taken to avoid killing civilians, and not many (any are bad) were killed, less than 100.

RT viewers, otoh, claim thousands killed by the alliance.

TheWraith

(24,331 posts)
4. RT viewers also claim Obama was born in Kenya.
Sun Dec 18, 2011, 01:45 AM
Dec 2011

Russia Today is a pipeline of bull, basically Fox News Russia.

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
6. What about the unvisited sites?
Sun Dec 18, 2011, 05:59 AM
Dec 2011
NATO warplanes flew thousands of sorties that dropped 7,700 bombs or missiles; because The Times did not examine sites in several cities and towns where the air campaign was active, the casualty estimate could be low.



Is it like a bank stress test without looking at off balance sheet vehicles?

ellisonz

(27,711 posts)
7. NATO intervention undoubtedly saved thousands of civilian lives.
Sun Dec 18, 2011, 06:19 AM
Dec 2011

NATO is going to learn from its mistakes. Considering the number of strikes, and the practices of Gaddafi forces of intermixing in civilian locations to avoid attack, that so few died is a testament to the good intentions of NATO personnel to avoid civilian casualties. I think compared to other air campaigns in the recent past this was a well-carried out mission.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Libya’s Civilian Toll, De...