General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsLet me explain why folks are so upset, even outraged at massive suspisionless piracy and spying
Last edited Mon Aug 12, 2013, 12:11 PM - Edit history (1)
by our government.
Some may think it is obvious, but after reading DU since the story broke, it is obvious that a few need it spelled out for them, which I will now undertake in this thread.
I will also address the most common whitewashing that has been going on to try and dismiss the concerns and criticisms against these unprecedented spying programs after spelling out why folks are legitimately concerned with what we have recently learned.
In short, beginning on June 5th, 2013, we the people were presented with documentary evidence that our government is conducting massive, suspisionless spying on all American's phone and internet communications.
This becomes a huge story because this is the first time we have received TOP SECRET documentary evidence of the government's massive spying programs.
We are told that there are many more documents yet to be revealed yet, but that they provide even more evidence of wrong doing by the US government.
Now, when we couple this evidence with the many previous NSA whistleblowers claims of government wrong doing, it should be obvious as to why many people are concerned and very upset, right around the world as it turns out this is not strictly a domestic operation.
OK, I think that is a pretty plain spoken, and accurate summary of where we are right now.
So, now lets deal with the common claims to whitewash these concerns and even to dismiss them as being illegitimate.
1. This is all legal, as it is being overseen by a court, the FISA court, and this court was established all the way back in 1978, and no one made a big fuss over it in all these decades, why now, unless you are prone to hyperbole.
Well, the answer to that is that this ain't the same FISA court as it was when it was first established, when individualized warrants, based upon probably cause was required. Now that is no longer the case, and it gets worse.
Here is some more info on how the court has dramaticaly changed, and not for the better...
- Why The FISA Court Is Not What It Used To Be
http://www.npr.org/2013/06/18/191715681/why-the-fisa-court-is-not-what-it-used-to-be
- Fisa court oversight: a look inside a secret and empty process
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jun/19/fisa-court-oversight-process-secrecy
- Retired Federal Judge Explains Why The FISA Court Should Not Be Trusted
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130617/01375623502/retired-federal-judge-explains-why-fisa-court-should-not-be-trusted.shtml
Now on to phone metadata...
Some folks like to say that that data does not belong to you, it belongs to the phone companies. And that a court ruled as such in the the 70's.
Well there are two issues glossed over here, the first being that the data belongs ONLY to the phone company. That would be like claiming that our medical records belong ONLY to our doctors, which is patently absurd. But let's say that's true, and we have no privacy rights over our phone metadata, since the phone company owns it, why is the government pirating it then?
Sounds like a couple legit concerns to me right there.
Secondly, they like to point to a long ago court case where there was an INDIVIDUAL, TARGETED in a CRIMINAL case, where the judge ruled the police could legitimately access his phone pin information (notice that is different than all of it's metadat, too).
Well, I am no lawyer, but neither are many of our leaders, but that also seems to lend itself to some legitimate concerns e.g. that was a case decided against a single individual, who was TARGETED in a CRIMINAL case, and secondly, it was for his phone's pin data, which is much less than what is now collected as part of your phone calls metadata.
Sounds like there are legitimate reasons that this issue needs to be revisited, at the very least, since they are now collecting EVERYONES phone "metadata" not just pin, but according to whistleblowers they are also now harvesting, storing and analyzing your call's content as well. EVERYONE, not targeted, no probable cause.
Next, computer metadata. Some again try to narrowly focus the scope, contrary to what the evidence has shown, by saying this is only network metadata, e.g. your IP address, and who you are connecting to's IP address, and the like, similar to a phone call they try to make it sound. And they also argue that this data does not belong to you either, it belongs to your ISP.
Well, again, even if it doesn't belong to you, and it belongs to your ISP, why then is the government pirating your ISP's data, right?
And then there is the documented evidence that says this includes your CONTENT not just your metadata (not to mention that no one is saying it is restricted to just network metadata, only the white-washers)
Lastly, they try to claim that privacy no longer exists in the age of the internet. And with this claim they have absolutely nothing to back it up. They just throw it out there and just expect people to accept that it is true for some unknown reason, or they may try to claim that somehow the internet is inherently not private.
Well, that is easily disproven simply by asking them to take notice of how every legit website on the planet actually has a privacy policy. And now that our medical records are being transferred and/or stored in the cloud, that some how all those privacy policies, and laws surrounding them have just magically disappeared in the age of the internet.
Yet, the kicker is, if you ask them for any of your personal, private information, like your phone number, DOB, or even a internet datapoint like your email address, you get nothing back (though sometimes you will get insults hurled your way by the less creative of the bunch).
Privacy is a long cherished and celebrated American tradition and right, enshrined in our constitution via the 4th amendment, yet there are some determined to make us believe that simply because we live in the digital age that privacy somehow no longer applies.
Well, even if that were somehow true, that would be just another, in a long list, of valid concerns, which is upsetting some people, and causing outrage in others.
Considering all the above, please keep that in mind before you try to dismiss folks, especially your fellow DUers when they raise such concerns as that is simply being disingenuous.
Well, there it is...
now I know some will say that was TL R, especially since I wrote this after a long week at work, and very late/early at night, so I promise to come back later and update it where I can, and potentially address anything you kind reader may suggest that I have overlooked.
In closing I just want to advise any and all who wish to reply, to please keep our DU rules in mind, or maybe even more importantly, common curtesy, and your own dignity, in the front of your mind. This is not some kind of game, or joke, and these are NOT illegitimate concerns, these issues are very serious, and impacts each and everyone of us, as well as our loved ones future, so please... be civil.
Thank you.
With that, I bid everyone a good night/day.
On edit: Some links to the documented evidence of the totalitarian privacy pirates illegal activities that patriotic whistle blowers have brought to light.
A Guide to What We Now Know About the NSA's Dragnet Searches of Your Communication
http://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/guide-what-we-now-know-about-nsas-dragnet-searches-your-communications
The NSA Files
http://www.theguardian.com/world/the-nsa-files
chimpymustgo
(12,774 posts)Denial is not an option.
usGovOwesUs3Trillion
(2,022 posts)and to everyone else who responded, for your kind words.
I know that most reasonable people have a legitimate concern about what we are learning on how our gov spys on us, and everyone else in the world.
It is incredible that they even have that capability today, but imagine the resources involved, YIKES!
And we are supposedly broke, can't even afford to give people back their retirements, that were not only promised, but were paid into/purchased, earned.
The too big to fail doctrine has revealed who counts and who doesn't, and it's a tiny pool of who counts, the rest are fucked.
Though we all must continue to fight the totalitarians, we won before, and we can do it again, if we all (or the vast majority) stick together.
IMA O IKIRU!
99Forever
(14,524 posts)The effort to silence the growing anger this direct violation of our Constitutional RIGHTS is ongoing and quite aggravating. That it's people calling themselves "Democrats" trying to feed us this authoritarian nonsense, is an insult to any thinking persons intelligence.
usGovOwesUs3Trillion
(2,022 posts)But a tiny, though vocal, MINORITY, on our beloved DU!
n2doc
(47,953 posts)mwooldri
(10,303 posts)... the more I think of the scope of it, the more I get scared and worried.
Your statement "Lastly, they try to claim that privacy no longer exists in the age of the internet." Then why are *all* the financial institutions across America (let alone the world) spend $$$$'s to ensure YOUR privacy and security with doing things like encryption of connections, doing everything they can to ensure no-one (not even the government) gains unauthorized access to your bank and financial records and the such? Between your computer device and your financial institutions' computers, there is a *secure* connection. If that is now compromised because there's no longer any privacy on the Internet .... we're screwed.
I'm working on a project that is aimed to help out victims of violence. When it is complete, the matters I will be dealing with will require utmost secrecy and discretion. Any online communication will require encryption - to the same standards the banks use. The project will involve law enforcement but the information I would be able to share would be limited. How do I deal with that - when law enforcement over-reaches its authority, either overtly or as it now seems - covertly?
I'm not an American Citizen. Are there ways for me to work around this, knowing GCHQ (UK's equivalent to NSA) is doing the exact same thing? Do I seriously want to consider moving my web site hosting "side business" to China? What EU nation would be more privacy-friendly? A non-EU nation like Iceland?
Is there a government get-out clause on the DMCA act? Or some other anti-piracy acts?
Again thanks for sharing, and thanks for the opportunity for me to express myself.
Mark.
usGovOwesUs3Trillion
(2,022 posts)I appreciate your situation, and as you pointed out, if our secure channels are compromised, we are screwed.
However, I do believe that it is not easy for the government to read encrypted communications and data. I think the recent shutdown of two secure email companies demonstrate that.
I would recommend that you do two things.
1. use a computer that automatically encrypts all your data (like apple products do).
2. look into using that same tech on your web server, and setting up your own email server that encrypts all your email (not just during transmition).
Here is an example email server thay can do that...
http://squirrelmail.org
http://squirrelmail.org/plugin_view.php?id=153
Make sure you have a pro set it up as that will be critical in ensuring that all your emails are truly secure.
BTW: Notice how none of the white-washers are on this thread, I wonder why?
usGovOwesUs3Trillion
(2,022 posts)Source: AP
BERLIN (AP) Two of Germany's biggest Internet service providers say they will encrypt customers' emails by default following reports that the U.S. National Security Agency monitors international electronic communications.
Deutsche Telekom AG and United Internet AG say emails sent by their customers will be automatically encrypted starting Friday.
Initially the encryption will only be secure between customers of Deutsche Telekom's T-Online service and United Internet's GMX and WEB.DE services.
The companies claim these three providers account for two-thirds of primary email addresses in Germany.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014561202
I do believe this spying will create a backlash, and force more companies to respond to consumer concerns by encrypting everything.
That will definitely create many business opportunities.
(on edit: I am NOT promoting this, as this only encrypts the emails inflight, I am just noting that business are starting to react to this spying nightmare)
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)the answer is far more easily explained ...
People fear a general, but ill-defined, undefinable, sense of insecurity in most of the important areas of their lives. This scandal, with all its complexity, allows them to place a name and a face to that feeling.
That and a well organized campaign to shake the people's "faith" in government is playing into that fear.
nashville_brook
(20,958 posts)ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...I hope many will read it and consider the points you make.
K&R
usGovOwesUs3Trillion
(2,022 posts)for your kind words.
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)forestpath
(3,102 posts)PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)You still are redefining certain terms to your liking. This is not something I support. It brings up thoughts of "Newspeak" to me. Words have meaning. Flux on these words meanings should be very slow, if at all.
usGovOwesUs3Trillion
(2,022 posts)But I wish you would be clear on which words you think I am changing/stretching the meaning of?
As a long time opponent of news/double/political speech, I would surly want to reconsider using them.
Thanks PowerToThePeople.
mick063
(2,424 posts)I won't dilute it with further comment.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)usGovOwesUs3Trillion
(2,022 posts)And especially for not getting snarky
Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)Storing numbers that you find in a phone book?
usGovOwesUs3Trillion
(2,022 posts)Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)Numbers stored are stored for later use if needed. There is no analyzing as far as I know. What do they analyze when storing a phone number?
usGovOwesUs3Trillion
(2,022 posts)e.g.
Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)Is that some sci-fi alien thing?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Not sure there's a way to solve this.
Response to Recursion (Reply #21)
Post removed
Just Saying
(1,799 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)No one is reading your email. They have much bigger situations to deal with. They are very meticulous and realize that all it takes is one fuck up and their funding gets cut and the entire NSA is tossed out on their asses.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Thought it was a quote from the Onion for a sec
Thanks!
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)although "common curtesy" I kind of like.
TL R I will let pass silently.