NSA contractors, BOA and Chamber of Commerce caught in plan to smear critics in online forums!

[Vinnie From Indy]

I am reposting this again without any references to any specific online forum in the hope that it will not be locked. I trust all DU'ers are smart enough to fill in the blanks.
**************************************************************
Just so all DU'ers know the history, I have posted a link to a very thorough article that details plans by NSA related companies in concert with Bank of America and The US Chamber of Commerce to smear critics on online forums and much worse. If anyone had any doubts about how the Total Information Awareness programs can be used AGAINST Americans because of their politics, this story highlights a taste of what is surely to come if the US does not reign in these programs. The article also underscores the dangers of "privatizing" these awesome powers.
********************************************************************
"At 7:30am the next morning, Barr had another great idea — find some way to make WikiLeaks supporters like Glenn Greenwald feel like their jobs might be at stake for supporting the organization.

“One other thing,” he wrote in his morning message. “I think we need to highlight people like Glenn Greenwald. Glenn was critical in the Amazon to OVH transition and helped WikiLeaks provide access to information during the transition. It is this level of support we need to attack. These are established professionals that have a liberal bent, but ultimately most of them if pushed will choose professional preservation over cause, such is the mentality of most business professionals. Without the support of people like Glenn WikiLeaks would fold.”

This seems an absurd claim on a number of levels, but it also upped the “creep factor” dramatically. Barr was now suggesting that a major U.S. corporation find ways to lean on a civil liberties lawyer who held a particular view of WikiLeaks, pressuring him into silence on the topic. Barr, the former Navy SIGINT officer who had traveled around the world to defend the First Amendment right to freedom of speech, had no apparent qualms about his idea."

The whole chilling article is here:
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/02/spy/all/

[NoOneMan]

1. Lately it seems like a campaign here to laugh at idea of paid shills.

Some people think that the paid shills are being paid to make fun of the idea of paid shilling. Not me. Just some people. Go figure. Just saying.

[uhnope]

58. Yeah so now all DUers are heroes suffering oppression

for sitting on the couch and typing on the keyboard. (Not you personally, NoOneMan). Apologies to those of you who are actually active, but otherwise this is such hilarious fantasy of persecution, illusion of grandeur. DU is a chat room, basically.
I'm working to make a differeince on issues like privatization of public lands, prisoner rights, and hate talk radio. If everyone who posts like crazy here on DU would go out and get involved instead, maybe we wouldn't have half these probs. Again, apologies to those of you who are active, but otherwise this kind of preening conspiracy theory nonsense is just ridiculous. What have you actually done that any spooky agency would care about?
Less sci-fi, more documentary, please.

[Diego_Native 2012]

62. Hmmm...vote?

Shaping opinions is not necessarily the goal of such a conspiracy. Often, all that is needed, is to make the common, non-involved, non-activist do nothing but sit at home come election time. Hopelessness, helplessness are tools that render populations tractable, pliable.

[bemildred]

79. Right, blame the victim.

The notion that it is up to us to make the government work is just a justfication for corruption. These politicians and bureaucrats should not be crooks. They are our employees. They work for us. They owe loyalty to us. We give them power. We can take it back. Or that is the way it is supposed to be. Anything that does not include those ideas is horseshit.

[marions ghost]

80. Right on time

...howdy. I look forward to your posts about public lands, prisoner rights and hate radio.

Please enlighten us so we can fight those issues better. DU is a good clearinghouse for how to work on various fronts. Hope you'll have some input on that instead of dampening our renewed interest in "spooky agencies."

Spooky agencies certainly do care about all of our political/social activities. It's not only to catch Al Kider.

[uhnope]

116. spooky agencies would want people to waste time venting in forums

and in my experience, DU is not at all a good "clearinghouse" for activism. It seems to be mainly about snark and tribalism.
I appreciate the breaking news part of the site and that's what I use it for--except sometimes I also vent, like in this thread, and like I said that seems to be the main purpose of DU. I'm not against DU, I just don't think people should fool themselves into thinking they are making great strides for freedom by posting a comment here, or fall into a solipsistic paranoia that the powers that be are monitoring their posts here.

[marions ghost]

119. OK

so why don't you run along home now?

I'm sure that if you wanted to post a discussion about public lands, prisoner rights, or hate radio, you'd find interest here in those topics. But I'm also sure that you have no intention of doing that or you wouldn't be around here dissing DU in general. And as for spook agencies wanting people to "waste time" venting in forums, well I guess we're complying with their wishes. But meanwhile we get to try to make sense out of what we are witnessing in these turbulent times--beyond the filtered and manipulated offerings of the mainstream media. This site must be functioning to provide something to the participants on it-- or you would not have so many using it as an interactive media interface. You don't need to preach. Nobody who posts regularly at DU is under any delusions about what DU is and what it's good for. That being said, I am 100% sure that the PTB monitor DU, and that they also monitor most of the more active political opinion blogs on the internet. I don't think anyone here is unaware of that. Get the joke--"Underground" LOL?

[uhnope]

124. tribalism, check. Juvenile insult, check. Paranoia, check.

point made for me, check.

[marions ghost]

132. Maybe you need to hang out

in a more "mature" website then. Seriously. Find a niche for yourself instead of disparaging this one, ya? And get back to your better things to do. Or...please stay and bring on those discussions of public land, prisoners rights, and hate radio. Bring 'em. Lets' hear what you have to say about your more mature topics. Then we'll see if you're worth responding to.

DU is blah blah (negative whining)--Check.
DUers are grandiose and delusional (insult)--Check.
DUers are preening conspiracy theorists (sarcasm) --Check.

Whenever there's a big controversial issue like this NSA thing, we always get this --"yer just no good, DU" crap
Cya

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

143. So what's the value of a point nowadays?

[sabrina 1]

85. Yes, some people do seem to spend their entire lives here, attacking, mostly the 'left' and

anyone who writes or points inconvenient facts regarding policies etc.

What the OP is talking about is real. And it IS an important issue. If we are to have a country that PAYS 'security contractors' to smear Journalists, in order to try to discredit and silence them, I can add that to my list of issues we are already working on. That is often tax payer dollars that we are told is for our Security.

Silencing journalists does not make a country secure. The free press is the first line of defense against the undermining of democracy.

So you may dismiss it as a non issue, but a whole lot of people do view this as an egregious abuse that needs to be exposed. And thanks to work of activists we have proof now that this is going on which it easier to recognize and to undermine those efforts.

Since the internet is being used to do this, that is where it needs to be exposed.

[KoKo]

90. Absolutely..."Since the internet is being used to do this,

that is where it needs to be exposed."

And, that's why it's so important for Corporations, Government, Special RW Interest Groups, Lobbyists, Think Tanks to have "disrupters" (I'm being kind) swarm the Comment Sections of online MSM Newspapers, Magazines, Network and Cable News Sites, Blogs, Facebook, Twitter, Financial Websites and everywhere anyone goes to find News on the Web. To shut down informed discussion by spaming, strawmaning, trolling repetition of same meme and targeted talking points under aliases, socks or other means to spread disinformation.

[arikara]

111. Smearing and disrupting

interrupts the documentary. What they do is deliberate and very effective. I see it on particular types of threads here all the time, where the same disrupters arrive on threads of a particular topic as soon as its posted with their same old arguments. They know how far they can push the name calling and insults and they effectively shut down any intelligent conversation on the issue. They yak up their credentials but if they were truly what they say they were, they would be doing their high paid jobs instead of racking up posts on a message board.

Go figure.

[Rebellious Republican]

127. Tell us how you really feel!

Thanks for the OP unhope. I did not know that there are so many worthless people posting here. Lazy, basement dwelling geeks that never see the light of day. It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling to know that there are at least a hand full of very special, self self-aggrandizing, better than thou people like you, that can manage to find the time out of your obviously busy schedule of activism, to come here and insult the masses of people who may be doing more than what you may think or know outside of DU. Many people make a difference in there own way and often have something to contribute no matter how grand or how small. It takes all kinds to do just a little or a lot, whatever the case may be. I think you may have some issues and before you flame me, you may want to analyze your own not well thought out back handed put down.

On Edit: I found your rock, now you can crawl back under it.

[burnodo]

2. Now he has a liberal bent?

[Catherina]

3. You're right. This is chilling.

You're right. This is chilling.

"An example. Richard has a network at home. Richard and (name redacted) probably share the same network, maybe even the same home computer. Either way, if I can exploit her account through one of her social connections I can exploit the home network/system"

You're right. This is chilling.

As one commenter posted:

It is profoundly disturbing how the elites of our society have mobilized against us. This has been going on for centuries, sometimes overtly, sometimes covertly, but has it ever reached this level? Reading Team Themis' proposals brought to mind the recent revelations that fusion centers across the US - central points of intelligence gathering for law enforcement and counterterror operations - have been gathering data on peaceful protesters and sharing it with the very same corporations those people were protesting against. How can anyone fail to see that the private and public sectors have merged at the highest levels, when they do almost everything in lockstep? One hand washes the other, and in the meantime, we're all sold the same lies over and over again

[Scuba]

4. Their ProPaganda is very evident here.

[Jackpine Radical]

29. A very SENSible comment.

[backscatter712]

54. And here I thought this board was filled with Flaming Dems...

But certain posters are running DU right off the railsback.

[Jackpine Radical]

60. Well, just guessing

at random, you may be right.

[backscatter712]

64. I'd just be dithering at this point. n/t

[backscatter712]

65. They have the boards all kittywampus! n/t

[tridim]

81. Nice callout!!!11

[Capt. Obvious]

110. LOL

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023373647

[backscatter712]

140. Oh, that's comedy gold!

Beware, I expect the McCarthyBots to turn on the crocodile tears spigot, start wailing and shrieking, rending their garments and going about in sackcloth and ashes about how those mean troll-hunters are making DU suck, and are hurting their feelings!

I'll keep an Oscar statuette handy to present to the bot that wins Best Actor or Actress...

[tridim]

82. Excellent callout!!!11

[truebrit71]

99. Would suggesting some are shill-enablers or sycophants be a "callout" as well?

[tridim]

76. Prosense, working for the Chamber of Commerce, with her her years of sourced, progressive posts.

LMFAO.

Are you fucking serious?

And BTW, calling out DU'ers is against the rules.

[Scuba]

77. I have no idea what you're talking about.

[tridim]

78. Uh huh. nt

[Arkana]

120. You really need to take classes in veiled sarcasm

cause you're REALLY bad at it.

[ProSense]

88. Don't feed the clowns.

[Downtown Hound]

113. I remember people viciously defending OperationMindCrime

Passionately stating that he had been here too long and had too many progressive posts to be a troll. Oops.

[tridim]

115. Prosense isn't a troll as you just implied.

Nothing about her DU record fits the definition.

It's all in your head.

[Downtown Hound]

117. I actually don't think she is

All I'm saying is the ability to cite links and having a so-called progressive history doesn't mean shit. Trolls know how to use google too.

[appal_jack]

83. Quit Dithering! The Sidtuation is series!!1!1!

Quit Dithering! The Sidtuation is series!!1!1!

Call Congress right fucking now!11!!11!!

[Jackpine Radical]

86. I arely know wha to say.

[appal_jack]

89. Don't Stubbs yer toe on the Staircase, Freddie. n/t

[ProSense]

87. Best argument ever: Claim other people's opinion is "ProPaganda"

[Scuba]

94. You must have meant to reply to a different post.

[Downtown Hound]

112. I don't think that particular poster has the good sense to get paid for her efforts

She does it for free. Sad.

[Warpy]

5. Gee, what a surprise

They've used Astroturfing for years. Much of it has been corporate to try to smear critics of products. Some of it has been purely political.

It's usually pretty easy to spot, the same poster making at least one post of the same rubbish every day, sometimes twice a day.

[malaise]

6. K & R

to expose these scumbags

[flamingdem]

103. malaise, the scumbags pointed to here include me

Do you think I'm a paid poster, really?

Backscatter accuses me of this above.

[malaise]

107. No I don't think you're a paid poster

I was responding to the OP

[flamingdem]

108. good!

I guess it's being interpreted in various ways.

[Marr]

142. Was this posted before your Greenwald OP history was posted?

I assume so.

[arely staircase]

7. so the obama bashing is organized? nt

[sibelian]

9. Goodbye, arley.

I'm sorry, but I think we need to start seeing other people...

[arely staircase]

10. I will take that as a yes nt

[randome]

17. Damn! sibelian's been doing a 'Night of the Long Knives' lately!

That echo chamber is going to be very small!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Pholus]

11. I guess, at least the part sourced in the intelligence community of course.

Once you give a government and its contractors the right to sort through everyone's electronic communications I figure that eventually you either do what they say or they roll out what they know about YOU!

[last1standing]

13. Do you seriously not care that we are being manipulated by right wing organizations?

Your comment would lead any reasonable person to believe you either don't care or are actually complicit.

[randome]

16. You are being manipulated?

[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[last1standing]

19. There are some who are definitely trying.

Your posts are a good example. Why do you have such a strong need to smear Greenwald and rec others threads smearing him? It obviously doesn't help the Democratic party or President Obama so what is the purpose? You're not changing minds but you are distracting from the discussion. This serves only those with a vested interest in supporting unchecked domestic surveillance. Therefore, your posts on this subject do nothing but attempt to manipulate DUers away from discussing the real topic and instead focus on the smears you and your brethren pump out in bulk.

[randome]

22. Did S&G steal anything that shows illegality or abuse by the NSA?

It's a simple question, isn't it? That's all I'm interested in.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[last1standing]

24. Yes, as Wyden, Udall, and nearly half of the House will tell you.

If you bother to listen.

[randome]

25. I said S&G.

I am not claiming the NSA is sacrosanct. I am not a 'supporter' of the NSA. I believe in going where the evidence leads, no matter what.

But S&G have told us nothing that indicates illegality or abuse.

I don't care about being right or wrong. I want to be accurate and the truth is we know too little about the NSA's inner workings. But the truth also is that we have no evidence that they have done anything illegal or abusive.

The FISA court recently reined them in. That happens every day across the country. It's how the system works.

Now tell me: what is the NSA doing that is illegal or abusive? And don't tell me what some politician 'suspects'. I want evidence.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[last1standing]

27. It's difficult to get "hard evidence" when this administration refuses to release it.

The Obama administration, like the bush administration before it, has argued before the courts that this information is so dangerous that it cannot be reviewed by judges. That is a pretty strong indicator of abuse right there. Non-reviewable political decisions are by definition abusive.

As for what S&G have proved, that is a conundrum. If Snowden did provide new information you call him a traitor, if he didn't you say "move on, nothing to see here." Regardless, what they have released proved that domestic surveillance has been conducted far beyond even the confines of the Patriot Act - yes, as Wyden, Udall and others have stated.

[randome]

31. The very definition of 'whistleblower' is someone who shows evidence of illegality or abuse.

Snowden did neither. I don't know what you mean by 'proved'. If it was 'proved', we would not be having this debate.

We are in agreement about more transparency and less secrecy for the NSA. Why not move on from there?

(Which is, admittedly, a little afar from the OP.)
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[last1standing]

34. I'd be glad to take the discussion of Snowden off the table to focus on the issues.

And we do agree that we need more transparency in the NSA.

I'm about to head out for the evening but if you'd agree to help host a thread on the subject I'd be glad to do that tomorrow. We can discuss the real issues involved and bump it with regularity to make sure that it doesn't sink.

I can't think of anything I'd rather post about.

[randome]

39. Three cheers for finding common ground!

I wish I could spend more time on a thread of my own. But I started a new job a couple weeks ago and I don't feel quite comfortble 'slacking off' by monitoring DU too much. At least not yet.

But yes, we could definitely use a thread to discuss how we can get to the point of more transparency and less secrecy for the NSA. And hopefully leaving all accusations behind!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[last1standing]

52. Congrats on the new job!

I'll start something tomorrow and you can kick it and add comments when you have time.

Take care.

[A Simple Game]

55. Perhaps when you do another thread you could ponder the difference between

legal and constitutional. I believe all the talk about legal and illegal is just a diversion because the actions by the NSA are undeniably unconstitutional.

[randome]

59. What, metadata copies?

It's not our personal property so 4th Amendment protections do not apply. It's been ruled that way for decades of court decisions.

If that needs to change, I'm fine with it. But legal definitions are precise. That's the nature of our Democracy. And as it stands now, third-party business records are not our personal property.

I really think we could stop throwing accusations back and forth -from either side- and do what last1standing suggests, talk about how we can get more transparency and less secrecy so we KNOW what the NSA is up to.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[A Simple Game]

66. Do you really believe they are collecting all of that data and not at least

checking for key words? You do admit that there is secrecy. Do you know that most people that can and do know what is going on, all say it is worse than we are lead to believe?

Do you know how much money it must cost to do what they are doing? Those massive storage facilities probably are done with non-union labor and don't cost all that much. You are probably right though, all of that effort is just for meta data. Then there are the emails that they are no longer collecting. Makes you wonder why people spend so much money on security doesn't it.

Now as far as recent events are concerned, the constitutionality of it hasn't been decided because no one could show harm because of the secrecy, that could now change. It could get interesting.

My problem is we do KNOW and have KNOWN for a long time what they have been doing, Snowden just gave us the proof and people still will not admit it. We know Congress has been lied to and the person(s) still has not been charged, think that would happen to you or I? But yes we do need to work together and that includes with the Republicans because this is not a party problem, it is an American problem.

[randome]

135. 'Honestly' believe? Honesty comes from looking at truth. Evidence. Facts.

Anything else is just imaginary fears, the kind that the NRA pushes to convince us that Obama is coming for our guns.

The documents S&G stole and printed so far show no evidence of illegality or abuse by the NSA.

Granted, they could be spying on every man, woman and child on the planet. But the FBI could be going through your garbage, too. I don't know about you but that doesn't keep me awake at night.

I have no problem torpedoing the NSA if they are engaged in wholesale spying. But we have no evidence they are doing that.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Caretha]

74. I for one

look forward to you starting a "new" job and having less time to devote to DU.

Perhaps your new job will engage more brain cells and more physical labor than you have had to do in some time.

[randome]

136. Thanks for the kind wishes!

My job doesn't matter, though. Brain cells are engaged 24/7!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[ljm2002]

139. "we are being manipulated by right wing organizations"

Really? Do you by chance have any evidence to support your claim?

[treestar]

72. Can you believe the hypocrisy?

It's almost worthy of Republicans.

[struggle4progress]

8. It sounds like Aaron Barr's a a-hole. But sadly, there's been a consulting industry to disrupt

various forms of movements for decades: labor encounters it regularly in efforts to organize

[PowerToThePeople]

12. Without the support of people like Glenn WikiLeaks would fold

I do not believe this. This sounds like propaganda to me.

[last1standing]

14. I guess we have to ask ourselves: Who has been posting out of context smears?

Every one of these posters is shilling for right wing organizations whether they realize it or not. They are not Obama supporters and they are not Democrats in the true sense of the word. They are either dupes being manipulated for online popularity or are being paid to lie to us.

It's time we called them out on their complicity. I would suggest something along the lines of "THIS THREAD HAS BEEN PAID FOR BY THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE AND OTHER RIGHT WING SOURCES!" Add a link to this story and that should do it.

[Jack Rabbit]

15. B of A and the USCOC, eh?

Not only does the NSA spy on us, but it collaborates with the enemy.

[randome]

18. 'NSA-related companies'. Some off-the-grid yahoos who wanted to be spies, most likely.

But perhaps Obama blackmailed them all?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Vinnie From Indy]

28. You mean like these "off-the-grid" yahoos?

Palantir

Palantir sells a powerful line of data-mining and analysis software that maps out human social networks for counter-intelligence purposes, and is in huge demand throughout government and in the financial and banking industries. Its customers includes the CIA, the FBI, the U.S. Special Operations Command, the Army, Marines and Air Force, as well as the police departments of New York and Los Angeles.

The NSA, which intercepts and analyzes global communications traffic, is a highly likely client as well. It was “eyeing” Palantir in 2009, according to the Wall Street Journal. One laudatory media profile called it “the darling of the intelligence and law enforcement communities.”

And on June 7, the DC publication TPM published this letter from a reader who noticed this tantalizing overview of a Palantir program called PRISM that’s used by intelligence agencies. PRISM, of course, is the name for the massive Internet-mining program being used by the NSA and exposed in The Guardian. “Is this who runs PRISM?” the reader asks. Good question; somebody does.

More at:
http://timshorrock.com/?p=1811


You have no interest in honest debate do you? I doubt you even read the linked article.

Cheers!

[randome]

36. PRISM, from what we know, relates to foreign communications only.

I have no problem getting more information about it. I have no problem with more transparency and less secrecy all around. But as it stands now, we have no evidence of illegality or abuse by the NSA.

I am not going to fault the NSA for using technology so long as it is used appropriately and legally. If anyone has evidence that shows otherwise, I have no problem raking them over the coals for whatever transgressions they have committed.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Vinnie From Indy]

46. "If anyone has evidence that shows otherwise"

My entire post was about "in your face", hard evidence that these companies were conspiring to attack Greenwald and others.

Again, I do not think you have even read the link provided in the OP.

[Rex]

95. I does help to read the OP before replying!

Unless of course said poster is stuck in a corner with the same old talking points.

[randome]

137. I was responding to the characterization of PRISM as an 'massive Internet-mining program'.

That is not what it does. (So far as we know, but why make up stories if we don't have the facts?)

And who cares what type of software intelligence agencies use? So long as they are not using it illegally or abusively. If they are, let's see the evidence.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[JDPriestly]

53. Well there are the cynical HB Gary types and then the faux naives.

I like the faux naives because they are so easy to spot.

They adopt the position that false is true and true is false, and no matter how much you explain to them that the true is true and the false is false and why, no matter how much personal experience and information that proves them wrong you and others provide, they insist that they are right. They truly are a distraction. And that is why they are here.

The faux naives.

It's probably a good gig if you can get it.

I have to water my tomatoes and fix supper now. I'm a real person unlike the faux naives.

[Progressive dog]

118. Palintar's software was praised by Joe Biden

from wikipedia

On June 18, 2010, Vice President Joe Biden and Office of Management and Budget Director Peter Orszag held a press conference at the White House announcing the success of fighting fraud in the stimulus by the Recovery Accountability and Transparency Board (RATB). Biden credited the success to the software, Palantir, being deployed by the federal government

[Fumesucker]

20. You say that like it's a bad thing

I for one welcome our new wise, benevolent and merciful capitalist overlords, may the profit now and forever more be upon them and their houses.

I would however welcome alien lizard overlords more, they'd probably be even more wise, benevolent and merciful than our current capitalist ones.

It's a cookbook indeed.

[DirkGently]

21. Good reminder that corporate tools love to lie about Greenwald. nt/

[KittyWampus]

35. And ratfuckers love Greenwald and Hamsher. SO EASY to attack the Left from the Left...

[DirkGently]

57. Ratfuckers are Nixonians. Nixon would love the NSA. Like you.

Don't know why you think the "rafuckers" thing is working for you. You never support it or use it to mean what it means.

[Divernan]

23. Anyone proclaiming there are no paid shills posting on DU . . . . .

is de facto promulgating the conclusion that Democratic Underground is not seen by the big players/opinion manipulators as worth bothering with. That's rather insulting to DU, isn't it? So to lock threads discussing the problems with paid disruptors on DU is to say that DU is not of enough consequence in the political arena to justify paying anyone to disrupt its threads.

I personally think that DU has always been carefully monitored by all parties recently revealed to have been paying trolls to disrupt online forums. And it further seems quite clear that when we're considering what side of the political debate has supporters with cash to pay for disruption, we are NOT talking about DU-ers posting in support of the unemployed, civil rights, habeas corpus, the poor, the disenfranchised, the imprisoned, the drone victims, the spied upon, people without health care, etc. Clearly the cash sources to pay disruptors/trolls/etc., comes from Big Interests with profits at stake.

There is a lot of sophisticated technology available allowing a single individual to set up automatic 24/7 multiple responses, by multiple "persona", triggered by key words or phrases. What can/is DU doing to identify and block these cyber attacks?

[zeemike]

30. Frankly I don't see what can be done.

But then I have not a lot of knowledge about IT things.
The only thing I can see to be done is to confront them head on day in and day out and hope that others can see them for what they are...(IMO creepy bastards)

[backscatter712]

61. Push Skinner to ban the shills. Especially target the high-post-count shills. n/t

[zeemike]

68. How would you know?

A good shill is never obvious.
And the last thing we need is a witch hunt....that would be mission accomplished for the disruptor crowd.
No I think Skinner is doing all he can, and I trust him to do it the right way...meanwhile what we can do is just don't buy into their shit and call them on it.

[KittyWampus]

33. Paid shills. LOL! Ratfuckers (Republicans) parading as Lefties do it for free.

[delrem]

45. It's now proven that cynical assholes do it for $$$.

That's what the HBGary hack proved.
Fer cryzake, I've seen posts *defending* HBGary on DU.

[delrem]

42. DU would be near #1 on their list!

DU is a Democratic hub, and more than that, a general liberal/progressive hub.

[JDPriestly]

49. Some of their representatives are probably posting on this thread right now.

I recognize some familiar names. Won't say which ones, but they are among us.

[delrem]

67. Heh. You don't have to say.

Anyhow, I do know what side Michelle Bachmann is on, and it isn't mine!

I don't think all are bots. Or rather, "personas". And like you I don't want to make randome guesses. But one thing I'm certain of: those DUers who support US spy agencies plans for total info awareness targeting the whole world, in secret, according as secret means and secret laws and secret interpretations, are my political enemies. I don't care what they call themselves. I don't care if they support such total evil out of naivete and are "really good people otherwise" - I don't accept that level of naivete as an excuse. Not when it effects critical matters of such import at such a critical time.

Those people want to destroy all the potential for good that comes from the exponential and quantum leaps in communication abilities (so I can talk with *you*, for example - impossible just a few years ago), and turn it to the purpose of an evil military machine.

[questionseverything]

69. plus one

k&r

[JDPriestly]

70. I'm with you.

If nothing else, Snowden sure separated the sheep from the wolves on DU. There is no question. We know who they are. They aren't really pro anything. They are random DUers that you can sot in a few minutes.

[KoKo]

91. I'm finding....

the use of "Trash Thread" and "Ignore" has been helpful. Some are so obvious that "Ignore" get's rid of the idiocy of the inexperienced ones so that one isn't tempted to waste energy by bothering to reply or get sucked into a string of posts with a group of them supporting each other.

"Trash Thread" works with the more skillful ones and allows me to see the subject line and poster for a sense of what's coming and so I just get rid of it so I don't see it again. Saves time and energy, once again, by not getting sucked into trying to give a link to refute their disinformation or try to convince them when they are not convinceable.

Notice the amount of DU'ers who get sucked into these posts and they get a Jury Decision to hide their post when many times it's because they just got sucked into a "gang bang" and popped off. They were penalized 20 points for Hide Post and won't be serving on any Juries (if they were signed up to) because the penalties mount up fast.

So, after awhile, if enough real Dem posters are unable to serve on a Jury...it means that the "Personas, Bots, Disrupters can control the Jury system.

So..."Hide Thread" and "Ignore" are at least one way of dealing with it. If one wants to see any of them and what they are up to...then one can just "Log Out" and see DU the way it is for non-members and since you can't reply to the nonsense unless you are logged in you aren't tempted to "get into it" with any of them and possibly get Jury Decision Penalty.

[backscatter712]

93. Skinner is in complete denial on the shill problem.

He won't lift a finger. "The jury system works fine! You just need to be civil!"

Fucking bullshit.

[KoKo]

97. I think he's said "Trash Thread" and "Ignore" are the ways he's given us

to deal with it, though. DU is supported mostly by Ads and if there is controversy it does bring in viewers and high viewer count brings in more Ads. It's just the way it is since the Admins have families to feed they need the revenue.

[truebrit71]

98. AS opposed to actually getting rid of the ProSHILLS that stink this place up...

....Not a great solution imho...

[backscatter712]

100. Yep. Using ignore just allows the shills to continue to pollute the site.

Skinner really needs to go at the shills with the ban-hammer.

[truebrit71]

102. Indeed..

[KoKo]

109. If you don't see them...then they don't exist. There's plenty of informative

posts here after you put them on ignore. If enough of us ignore them...then they won't be stinking up the place. It will be DU as you want to see it for the information that you come here to find.

But, some feel that DU is a place to Battle Trolls, Bots and Paids. If that's what you like to do (and nothing wrong with that) then there's enough here to find. It's just that Skinner has said that he feels we have enough tools to use to make DU be the way we personally want to view it. They remove the obvious Trolls but, it's a lot harder to ferret out and prove that someone is Paid or just a Bully who likes to provoke and spread nonsense but never really crosses a line to be found out and removed.

[JDPriestly]

96. Thanks for the tip.

But if we don't respond to them, then their posts stand without refutation for newcomers.

I see DU as an opportunity to educate people about the breadth and openness of liberal thought. If we leave these disrupting posts without any opposition, then the disruption comes to represent DU and liberal thought.

I can see your point of view though.

I should add that when I respond to the disrupting posts, I try to focus on educating people who may be new to DU, people who may not yet have thought a problem or issue through. Sometimes I fall into the trap of thinking of the bot or persona as a real person, but generally I use their posts as an opportunity to explain something.

I think that through my strategy, I can turn these annoyances into opportunities to discuss my point of view.

But sometimes they are beyond annoying.

Also, I find that often edit the posts I write in response to theirs. Sometimes my first reaction is rather rude, so I try to leave it a bit and then come back and write something gentle remembering that my real audience, my real readers are not the persona to whom I am responding, but someone that the persona is trying to influence by posting on DU.

[KoKo]

104. Agree...that some disinfo posts are worth trying to engage in to bring reason.

And, especially if there are new posters who get attacked with the disinformation or just aren't as well informed as those of us who have been here for years and are politicaly active. And, there are many posters that one can discuss issues with and "agree to disagree" with. I've not "Trashed Thread" or put them on "Ignore." It's the ones that are so obviously here to disrupt and spread disinformation that after awhile I found it's just not worth it for to me to wade through their nonsense of baiting and bullying because they don't listen and don't care to engage in any kind of real discussion. It's obvious why they are here..and I don't want to feed them.

[JDPriestly]

121. It was terrible when Issa was "investigating," Benghazi, read smearing the Obama adminsitration

unfairly.

[kestrel91316]

105. They have a cadre of them over on the Environment/Energy group, too.

The pro-nukers.

[L0oniX]

63. This website is not a Dem charity ...it is a money making enterprise. n/t

[KoKo]

92. True....see post #91 for ways to deal with it...

It might eventually make DU two separate Boards if Distruptors/Personas/Bots are all either Trash Threaded or Ignored (in a "Paid Post Pen&quot ....but, it is somewhat of a solution with the tools that are available to us.

I've found it easier to Log In and see informative posts without having to slog through the trash and have my blood pressure go up or get into it with any of them.

[treestar]

73. The paid shills if they exist are attackers from the left

They continually use the fact that those left of the Democrats are allowed here to find an opening for trashing the Democrats more than the Republicans.

With the jury system, they've seen the chance to take over.

[truebrit71]

101. I disagree..they are attackers from the right and centre CLAIMING that "the left" are the ones...

...to blame for the short-comings of the centrists that the shills are employed to elect and protect...

It's a classic mis-direction diversion technique...

[Rex]

125. Yep, just like being told you have to wait for good policy.

The Conservative Dems are really fucking up the party right now, too bad they don't know how to admit to making mistakes.

[G_j]

84. good post

good guestion

[MotherPetrie]

26. K&R

[KittyWampus]

32. SO Vinny, what about the ratfuckers attacking the Left from the Left? The Libertarian/Greens who

think blowing up the Democratic party is the best way forward?

Oh, that's right.

Ratfuckers do it for free. It sure is easy.

[Vinnie From Indy]

41. I am not sure any attacks by anyone will "blow up" the party.

What I do hope is that there is a continued groundswell within the rank and file to pull many Democrats back to the center left. The "third way" Dems should be made to understand that they can and will be challenged in primaries from the left. I see that as a very healthy thing for our party.

[JDPriestly]

48. The Third Way Democrats are who these HBGary types are.

HBGary, etc. support the centrist Democrats.

We who are FDR, slightly left Democrats want to regain our party for labor, for the middle class and working people.

That's why I support Liberal Democrats, not conservative ones.

[delrem]

50. I suggest you drop the term 'ratfuckers'.

Esp. when claiming that the US NSA total info awareness programs are "the left", and to reveal them is to "attack the left from the left". That's an incoherent line, KittyWampus.

[KittyWampus]

37. HEY VINNY- there've already been multiple Libertarian trolls getting tombstones after their threads

get boatloads of recs from the Greenwald clique.

Are they paid too?

[Waiting For Everyman]

114. You mean like this one...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023366933#top

[Skraxx]

38. I'm sure They Are Doing Everything They Can to Depress Dem Turnout

I wonder what the most effective strategy would be to accomplish this? Perhaps try to exacerbate the impression that there's no difference between the parties?

[KittyWampus]

40. Greenwald's dupes are too dense to figure that out.

[Skraxx]

44. Dupes, Suckers or Shills?

Take your pick, or any combination thereof.

[JDPriestly]

47. Obama can put an end to the influence of these companies within his administration

at any time. And Democrats in Congress can push legislation that could end their nasty behavior. If these nasty guys and their friends did not buy Congress, and had we not had the Bush presidency, the Democrats would be end their antics. I hope someone brings legislation. And then we have to embarrass our Congress into voting for it. I think we can.

[JDPriestly]

43. Ugly, ugly, ugly.

A lynch mob. They lynch people with gossip. That is really low.

But I'm warning people, if some company like HB Gary wants to deprive you of a job, they can whisper in the ear of your employer. As far as I know, in the US, your employer is not bound by the First Amendment. You can be fired for your political views if your employer is a really nasty guy.

In Germany it used to be more difficult. They had a famous case on someone who took a political stance against nuclear power and was fired for it. Free speech won. Their laws were different. I don't know if they have changed since then.

So, think before you speak. Theoretically, the government cannot discriminate against us based on the content of our speech, but our employers can. I could be wrong. Check with a lawyer in your state, but that is what I understand. I just want working people to watch out.

The meanness of these guys. Just mean, mean, mean. They are to me on the level of the terrorists. They just use different form of aggression. They don't harm you physically. They harm you economically and spiritually. It is very hard to remain positive about yourself if your employer fires you for apparently no reason at all. It really hurts.

And these nasty guys specialize in hurting people in that mean, mean way. It's really awful.

I do no lightly compare people to terrorists. But can you imagine how unfeeling people are to investigate an innocent person and then try to destroy their life, their economic life, their self-esteem, their ability to speak their heart and convictions?

Among the lowest. Not quite as bad as the actual terrorists but really at that level. I hope they are ashamed of themselves.

HB Gary. Treat others as you would be treated. Do unto others what you would have them do unto you. Anything less than that will eventually get ruin YOUR OWN LIFE. Ultimately these guys are hurting themselves. You cannot do that kind of work and have a really good life.

[Vinnie From Indy]

56. I agree completely!

Cheers!

[starroute]

51. There's an interesting passage in David Graeber's The Democracy Project

This is from pages 132-33. (Emphasis added)

Back in 2000, I spent a good deal of time documenting how this first stage worked in the wake of the WTO protests in Seattle. At the time I was often working with activist media liaisons, and we would have to deal with bursts of bizarre claims that always seemed to suddenly appear on the horizon, clearly deriving from multiple official sources, all at the same time. During the summer of 2000, for example, there was one week when suddenly everyone started saying that anti-globalization protesters were all actually rich kids with trust funds. Shortly thereafter we began to hear a list of ultraviolent forms of behavior that protesters were supposed to have employed in Seattle. … Warnings about such violent tactics soon began regularly appearing in the newspapers before trade summits, often on the authority of experts sent to drill the local police, creating a mood of looming panic – despite the fact that during the Seattle protests themselves, no one had even suggested anyone had done anything of the sort. … While there's no way to know precisely what was happening, the bits of evidence we could glean suggested they traced back to some sort of a network of private security companies that worked in liaison with police, right-wing think tanks, and possibly some sorts of police intelligence units.

[KoKo]

123. Given revelations the last couple of years....and longer but increasing

Last edited Tue Jul 30, 2013, 05:51 PM - Edit history (1)

since the explosion of the Internet...and NEW TOOLS...we know they are out there and the network is vast. Wall Street Lobbyists employing Disinfo, Think Tanks, the Massive Security Network and others...who know how to use the internet and also how to infiltrate probably from NSA spying, too.

[starroute]

133. What strikes me is not that they do it, but who "they* are

Private security companies, right-wing think tanks, and police intelligence units is a particularly toxic brew.

It's been clear for a good while that there's a kind of pipeline that places stories in the right-wing college newspapers funded by the Collegiate Institute and kicks them from there up to the likes of the Drudge Report, the Wall Street Journal, and Fox News. Things like the "trust fund baby" stories presumably come through that channel, which also has ties to the Heritage Foundation and its associates.

But the suggestion that private security companies and possibly police intelligence units may also be part of the mix is particularly disturbing. It suggests that official government employees and contractors are working hand in glove with right-wing organizations, and that clearly verges on fascism.

[KoKo]

145. I don't think it's all RW...

at this point, though. I think it hits us from all angles. And, that's the saddest of all..that it's come to this. Although I might be too harsh in my assessment...it is out there...and makes me wonder. We are five years and more into Dem Administration... something should have changed at least a little bit, by now.

[treestar]

71. Why are these people immune from criticism?

What is it with these threads whining about it? From people who criticize others freely, I might add.

We do not have to be organized to criticize your heroes.

[Warren Stupidity]

75. K&R and glad you reposted this.

[Rex]

106. Nah, no money trail there. I am sure they are all innocent and

just getting blamed by those big meanie Lefties!

[Flatulo]

122. If there are posters here that you feel are paid disrupters or such, why not put them

on ignore?

It's the Internet - no one can disrupt you if you ignore them.

[Rex]

126. Funny how you infer the OP is about DU.

Nice try.

[Flatulo]

128. Funny indeed. I bet it means something.

Cha-Ching!

[think]

129. Paid shills can be useful tools if you understand their M.O.

[Flatulo]

130. If silliness and paranoia paid as well as forum disrupting, there would be fewer Marxists on DU.

[99th_Monkey]

131. Great Find!!!!!! K & R! Thanks so much for getting this info out on DU. ~nt

[railsback]

134. Heaven Forbid!! Propaganda V. Propaganda!

Who will win??? Prop A says Prop B is spying on all of Prop A, based on a reliable source who isn't the issue.. however that works.. and Prop B, rather than grabbing their socks, tells Prop A to prove it and laughs hardily at Prop A's insistence that the word 'reliable' is immune to any scrutiny because its not about the 'reliable' messenger… however that works. Prop A goes ballistic! 'How dares anyone question our 'reliable' source - He's just 'reliable', ok? Eat it, or you're a pooper on the Constitution, you STASI lovers!!' Who will win???

Meanwhile, some poor woman is being forced to pay for a mandatory transvaginal ultrasound, as she raises her hand and says, 'Um, hey, people, my rights are actually being violated here… anyone? Help?'

[LanternWaste]

138. I don't think concern for the one denies concern for the other...

"Meanwhile, some poor woman is being forced..."

I don't think concern for the one denies concern for the other... unless of course, one is merely simple.

[railsback]

141. Public discourse drives the narrative

Priorities get the focus. Before the Snowden affair, women's reproductive rights under assault got a fair share of public debate. Now its been pushed off the map as everyone screams at each over who's lying the most.

[marions ghost]

144. K&R

Thank you for this post