Deputies shoot man in his front yard He was getting cigarette out of his mother's car

[HarveyDarkey]

Lying in a hospital bed the night after he was shot by Escambia County sheriff’s deputies in his own front yard, Roy Middleton only had one question: Why?

Middleton, 60, of the 200 block of Shadow Lawn Lane in Warrington, was shot in the leg about 2:42 a.m. Saturday while trying to retrieve a cigarette from his mother’s car in the driveway of their home.

A neighbor saw someone reaching into the car and called 911. While he was looking into the vehicle, deputies arrived in response to the burglary call.

Middleton said he was bent over in the car searching the interior for a loose cigarette when he heard a voice order him to, “Get your hands where I can see them.”

He said he initially thought it was a neighbor joking with him, but when he turned his head he saw deputies standing halfway down his driveway.

He said he backed out of the vehicle with his hands raised, but when he turned to face the deputies, they immediately opened fire.

http://www.pnj.com/article/20130728/NEWS11/307280027/Deputies-shoot-at-man-in-his-yard?nclick_check=1

[hatrack]

1. Yay, cops! They're the best!

[villager]

6. Quick! Post the cop holding the milk jugs! That excuses everything, and explains...

...why we don't need the 4th Amendment anymore!

[Eddie Haskell]

8. If I'm your neighbor ... Give me a call before you call the swat team.

He's lucky they didn't drive a tank through his house.

[hollysmom]

159. Uh, I called the cops on a neighbors daughter when my neighbors were on vacation

There was a moving truck in their driveway and this was when people were stealing house contents and the neighbors had a lot of antiques. Turns out the daughter and her family were moving across country and stopped at the house unannounced to sleep there.

The local police were not a swat team, although they had their guns drawn at one point, but no one got shot, not even the children. I ran over to apologize to the daughter immediately.

A lot of these shootings lately have seemed unprovoked, like the woman with the broken leg from the dog attack. Why should the police shoot first, think second in a lot of these cases?

[Eddie Haskell]

206. Wow, that could have had a tragic ending.

Alls well, that ends well.

[hollysmom]

207. I don't think so

we have a small local police force and then tend to be careful. talk first, shoot last - they only shot one person in the 30 years I have been here, that is a guy from Colorado that brought his gun with him, rented a car and drove through 3 towns shooting people, it ended in my town when he crashed the car and had a shoot out with police about 10 years ago. Mostly they hand out traffic tickets or patrol street fairs or arrest wandering dogs ( like mine - I had to bail her out of our 2 cell prison once, heh. ) There was one home invasion in 30 years. mostly it is traffic and burglaries of empty homes.

[Eddie Haskell]

209. sounds like a nice place to live.

[hollysmom]

210. very expensive though since it is only 10 miles out side of the city

and closer to Newark and Passaic crime areas (car theft along streets on the outskirts is a problem) lots of trees, sidewalks and 25% of the land is park land and fast food can not build here because of zoning laws which say stores and restaurants have to close by 11.

[pscot]

20. Trigger happy assholes

[AnotherMcIntosh]

34. Untrained trigger-happy assholes. How many rounds did they fire, and how many times did they miss?

[pscot]

108. There's something seriously wrong

with the recruitment and training. Or maybe it's just that the whole country is fucked up.

[WinkyDink]

162. 17 bullet casings found. SEVENTEEN.

[lark]

63. PIGS

People of my generation started calling them pigs for a very good reason.

[Ghost Dog]

101. Shit - Fan Combination.

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.

The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

W. B. Yeats

[niyad]

2. why? the pic tells us everything we need to know.

[HarveyDarkey]

11. This^^^

[pscot]

22. It does indeed

I hadn't looked at the link, but that explains it.

[DevonRex]

80. It's open war on African Americans in Florida. Obviously. This isn't just a cop story.

This is an officially sanctioned policy from the state house.

[okieinpain]

147. well if you cant stop us from voting............ n/t.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

155. Even if they use Diebold?

[CincyDem]

104. BWB

I didn't get it until I opened the link.

Of course. Guilty of "Breathing while Black".

Thank god he wasn't trying to get the entire pack, imagine what the damages might look like.

[truedelphi]

123. Not totally true -

A white guy was shot by police in a So Calif. city after his neighbors called police. He had a garden hose in his hands. The cops mistook the hose nozzle for a gun. Killed instantly by the shot gun blasts.

Sad thing was - he was only watering the yard as a favor to a friend who was away for the 4th of July holiday.

[Scootaloo]

152. There it is. +1

[joshcryer]

171. Didn't even have to click the link to know what you were saying.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

3. Another innocent black guy gets shot.

[Aristus]

4. I smell a lawsuit.

Dumbshit deputy dawg is going to wish he'd never even seen a gun or a badge...

[AnotherMcIntosh]

40. He now has PAID time off. A paid vacation in Florida.

Most people don't get paid vactations when they screw up.

[Ghost Dog]

109. True, that.

[hedgehog]

5. "“My mother’s car is full of bullet holes though. My wife had to go and get a rental.”

Sounds like someone could use some training.

[Boom Sound 416]

7. Is the neighbor who called police white?

because it matters if the narrative is to survive

I'm glad Mr Middleton did.

[East Coast Pirate]

74. Why does that matter?

[Boom Sound 416]

111. because the budding narrative is racially motivated

as is evidenced by the newspaper article


we know nothing of the 911 call
nothing of the caller
nothing of the location
nothing of the responding officers
nothing of the police report

but the newspaper made sure we know Mr Middleton's race and his side of the story. I'm not saying he's lying in anyway. but there are always two sides to a story

[notadmblnd]

127. So you are suggesting that all these questions should be asked and answered before we judge?

Seems to me the PD should have asked a couple of questions before they judged and opened fire, no?


Obviously the police were not in a question asking mood since they shot first. If they had asked questions first, they would have known the man belonged where he was and they would also have been able to verify he belonged there with the home owner.

Seems to me that you should be admonishing the PD instead of admonishing us and the news paper. After all, if they hadn't been so eager to shoot, there would be no story.

I know, I know..big scary black man, shoot first- ask questions later is SOP in FLA.

[Boom Sound 416]

131. Your second set of questions is my point

Should the cops have done this or that? Yes, no we don't know what they did or didn't do. So who knows?

As to your first question 'should we ask these questions before we judge' seems pretty grounded in fairness and sensibilitu to me, no?

What if the cops are black?

For that matter what are your feelings to black cops. Are they shoot first too or just the white ones, Asian ones, Hispanic ones, mixed race ones, etc ones...

[notadmblnd]

134. If the cops are black, they're still pigs for shooting the guy without asking questions first.

As a rule, I am very distrustful of LEOs. My personal encounters with law enforcement have only been traffic encounters. however, it has been my experience that AA officers are less asshole-ish than Caucasian officers.

But that is neither here or there.

[Boom Sound 416]

136. What happen to your scary black guy bit?

[notadmblnd]

139. That's the excuse people in FLa use to justiy shooting AAs that are minding their own business

The cops had to have been afraid he was going to do something scary, else why would they need to shoot?

GZ had to shoot TM cause he was afraid, right?

From my perspective, it appears to be SOP in Fla these days. Shoot now, ask questions later.

[Boom Sound 416]

140. I think it's quite evident you know very little

About Florida

As to"The cops had to have been afraid he was going to do something scary, else why would they need to shoot?"

That's the point of my post!

I'm done

[notadmblnd]

145. That could be... However, I think it's quite evident- that you know even less.

Go ahead, try and sell what you think you can sell here.

Enjoy your stay.

[Boom Sound 416]

137. So lets see

You distrust cops
But have only death with them in traffic situations but somehow white ones are worse than black ones but they all suck anyway, but you don't know how they suck.

Got it

[CreekDog]

193. Well I live near where Oscar Grant was shot by a police officer, why should I trust?

and is this story supposed to help me trust them more?

[Boom Sound 416]

195. And I changed planes at O'hare once

But it's not the reason I hate the cubs.

[CreekDog]

198. that's what you say when you don't have an answer

enjoy your stay.

[Boom Sound 416]

200. C'mon

Don't do that. I don't call you names or base your sincerity on a post count(I presume) I didn't get the "enjoy your stay" line as code first. I get it now. Thanks.

You distrust cops in Florida because you live California. Ok.

I got indigestion after eating at Olive Garden, but I still think Italy has the best tomatoes on the planet. (Volcanic rock, best water in the world)

If you don't understand my answer or dont like it, fine. Don't resort to troll talk.

[CreekDog]

202. you've been mocking people on DU since you signed up --don't plead for civility after doing that

[Boom Sound 416]

204. Mock?

Maybe it's a cultural disconnect but who's pleading anyway. And frankly, who am I mocking. And there are plenty of posts and posters I agree with too.

I'm pretty fixated on the Zim trial for many reasons. So?

Or maybe you just misread my tone.

[okieinpain]

148. lol. so now being in you front yard is suspect. n/t.

[Boom Sound 416]

154. I'm talking about the article

I'm not sure what you're implying about my response

[okieinpain]

160. you said the following

" I'm not saying he's lying in anyway. but there are always two sides to a story ". I said "so now being in your front yard is suspect".

there is nothing to imply.

[Boom Sound 416]

161. My statment doesn't cause yours, so no is the answer

[muriel_volestrangler]

178. "The Escambia County Sheriff’s Office declined to comment on the incident Saturday"

So, by your journalistic standards, they should not report this at all, because the police won't comment. That would allow the police to cover up anything, just by refusing to comment.

And, because they do report it, and have a picture of the victim (though they don't point out his race), you say the narrative is racially motivated, and blame the newspaper. In your world, reporting something bad happening to a black man, without even mentioning that he's black, is wrong.

[Boom Sound 416]

181. No, that's not what I'm saying but here's an update to the story

So I guess we're good

http://www.pnj.com/article/20130729/NEWS11/130729006/Mother-of-man-shot-in-his-front-yard-speaks-out

[muriel_volestrangler]

182. No, you're not 'good'. You are still accusing the paper of making this racially motivated

and of ignoring the police side. I can't find anything 'good' about your posts at all. Quite the opposite.

[Boom Sound 416]

184. Here's the problem

and I'm not condemning the industry

but, the story completely relates Middleton's account. It does so as fact with no ambiguity. The reader knows what, when and why he was at his car. It makes no issue to dispute his claim, it asks no follow ups. If the police refuse comment, fine. Do they hold the story over that? No. Fine.

Then theirs this:
"The neighborhood where Middleton lives was quiet Saturday afternoon, and there was no evidence the shooting had even occurred. However, neighbors said only a few hours earlier the area had been congested with law enforcement vehicles and yellow crime scene tape."

There is a lot of missing info here. Why didn't anyone contact the neighbor who called 911. If they did, why is their no mention. Or why was it left out. Where is the 911 audio. Who else was home. Is that Mr. Middleton's home.

Maybe its not out and out stoking a fire, but at least very leasts its incomplete work. But frankly its shoddy. It also shows no sensitively towards the issues for which the state and country are reeling. They needed to be extra diligent to get it right and not to stoke something that isn't their. At very least a complete job could discover if it there at all.

I should be more articulate, but I hope you understand me

[muriel_volestrangler]

187. The police have the 911 audio; the police know who the caller was

Not anyone else. If they say they're not commenting, you can't know anything about the call. Yes, it's Mr. Middleton's home; "Deputies shoot man in his front yard". His mother was also home; you can assume that from it being her car that he was in (yes, it's possible she was somewhere else, and he had driven it without her, but that's unlikely; the next story did confirm she was there too). But that doesn't tell us anything significant about the shooting anyway.

" But frankly its shoddy. It also shows no sensitively towards the issues for which the state and country are reeling."

WTF? Are you saying that people should be feeling sorry for the police, the day after they've repeatedly shot at a man in his own driveway? I'll repeat: the story does not mention Mr. Middleton's color. So what are 'the issues' here - that the police have a tendency to shoot innocent people?

" They needed to be extra diligent to get it right"

In what way are you claiming they got it wrong?

Finally, let's compare your new-found concern to 'show sensitivity towards the issues for which the state and country are reeling' with how you started this sub-thread:

"Is the neighbor who called police white? because it matters if the narrative is to survive "
" the budding narrative is racially motivated ... the newspaper made sure we know Mr Middleton's race and his side of the story. I'm not saying he's lying in anyway. but there are always two sides to a story"

Not much concern for sensitivity there, was there? You accused the paper of building a racial narrative.

[Boom Sound 416]

189. thanks for keeping the discussions to the points

so often folks tangent about this or that. Sincerely


so,

yes the police the 911 audio, but I'm pretty sure is FOIA, but that's ok not to hear it. I'll concede that to process. And process takes time. yes, the police know who the caller is, but its evident from the story the paper went to the nieghborhood. Its not a far leap to take the story as implying the caller was an adjacent neighbor. the newspaper fails to find them, etc.

the "Deputies shoot man in his front yard" is not a confirmation of address - there is plenty of ways to do that online in minutes

The "His mother was also home; you can assume..." I'm not really following you but it shows more indetermination to his address and if it is his mother's car, it likely wouldn't be registered to him. We don't know if the plates were run by the police before they made their presence known. It to my point that you/we must assume. According to the story we need not assume much according to Middleton.

The:
" They needed to be extra diligent to get it right"

In what way are you claiming they got it wrong?

No. Not at all what i'm saying. that is not logic. I'm saying they need to do extreme diligence

The "Finally, let's compare your new-found concern" don't be rude. you know nothing about me. I think we can respect one another enough for that

the"Not much concern for sensitivity there, was there? You accused the paper of building a racial narrative."

are you implying its insensitive to accuse an organization of being insensitive?

Finally I stand by my thoughts. I respect yours. We'll just have to follow the story

[muriel_volestrangler]

191. I don't respect your thoughts

They're all I know about you, and they're ugly. You started by accusing the paper of trying to make this a race story, and said that it would disappear if it couldn't be spun as one. We've heard that from some people about the Zimmerman story - that people only reported it because the victim was black, and were only keeping it alive because the victim was black. And all of those people were hateful. You are now trying to weasel out of that with irrelevant complaints like the paper not interrogating the neighbors hard enough to make them admit they made the 911 call, or about who the car was registered to.

[Boom Sound 416]

194. Well I guess

I'll just have to go on living my life in the shame of your long shadow.

I like how you use the word "interrogate". That's some spin there

Oh, and no one puffed the story because Trayvon was black. It's that he was black and Zim was white, well then Hispanic, then white Hispanic, then so many things. (Many of which I agree with)

I guess your reasoning its insensitive to call out insensitivity, the same for "finally I stand by my thoughts" is my attempt to weasel from them.

Whatever. 'twas a good discussion

[Eddie Haskell]

9. Imagine the carnage we'd have seen if the TIPS program had caught on.

Whole neighborhoods would have been destroyed.

[Th1onein]

10. Hatrack already said it: Yay cops! They're the best!

We need to get these thugs off of our payrolls. When a person can't even go out to their car in their own front yard without being shot at, there's a problem. When it's the citizens, themselves, that are footing the bill for these outrages, we've got a catastrophe on our hands.

Just think what would have happened had they actually killed him--they would have thrown down a gun, or concocted some story about thinking that he had a gun.

It's every day we're getting a new story about these outrages. I'm sick of it.

[Sometimeswedrown]

12. Wait where is the police information from report?

Just being devils advocate here as I see just one side of the story.

I just need more details before I condemn cops for doing a very dangerous job.

[Eddie Haskell]

14. Really?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/10-of-the-most-dangerous-jobs-in-the-u-s--191643548.html

Don't show up on this list, but I wonder how accurate it is.

[Sometimeswedrown]

18. I did not say "the most"

BUT since you ask

You tube is full of police officers, shot, beaten, ran over, etc. by criminals I would say that puts the job under dangerous.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

23. The false title for the 1st video does not establish that the father of 4 attacked the cop.

It did not happen. The video shows that.

Because of the false claim ("Father of Four Attacks&quot , I did not bother with the second.

[Sometimeswedrown]

35. You did not bother because truth makes one look foolish

As I said there are hundreds maybe thousands of videos of law enforcement being, shot, stabbed, ran over, assaulted etc.

And yes a lot died

[AnotherMcIntosh]

37. Actually, your posting of a false video, one with a false headline, shows you are foolish.

Did you even look at your posted video with the false headline "Father of Four Attacks" before posting it?

[Sometimeswedrown]

54. You may be right about the one video but you ignored my point

And simply assume law enforcement are always to blame and ignore the fact they are injured and yes even killed on the job.

Your solution? No law enforcement? Let people be free we can all work it out no need for pesky maybe dangerous police officers to investigate, because you know they will shoot you for no reason at all.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

56. I did not ignore your point. You want me to offer a solution? OK. Stick with the truth.

Last edited Mon Jul 29, 2013, 10:20 PM - Edit history (1)

[heaven05]

77. yeah

yeah, yeah. There are hundreds, if not thousands of recents cases of unarmed citizens being shot down like dogs in the street. I see what you are. It's not pretty.

[JimDandy]

156. Just 2 days old, too. Hmmm. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

78. Then there are NYPD cops that serve for 30 years and never draw their gun.

[GreenStormCloud]

59. You should look at the second video. N/T

[Savannahmann]

29. Father of four attacks?

If that is a serious attack, and proof of your assertion that cops have a dangerous job (baloney) then the job could be done by Cartman on his big wheel.

Sadly, I think that a vast majority of the cops are just like the character Cartman, psychologically disturbed with authoritah.

[DevonRex]

96. With a cigarette butt.

I'm thinking he was looking in the ashtray. Clearly criminal behavior.

[okieinpain]

149. i believe both. its a damn dangerous job and they

Get off on it.

[Savannahmann]

150. The ones in most danger

Are the ones the Police are interacting with. The danger to them is significantly greater than the danger to the police.

57 Officers died so far this year. How many people died as a result of Police action?

4 Were struck by vehicle, 11 were involved in automobile accidents. I wonder how many of them died because like every cop I see, they were not wearing their seatbelts?

8 died of heart attacks. Apparently a diet heavy in donuts isn't good for you after all.

1 was stabbed, 19 died by gunfire. 19 out of 57. Yet how many have been shot, like this man, because of the fear that the responding officers will join the just over 1/3 of the dead officers this year in death by gunfire? A lot of fear for less than half of the "line of duty deaths.

http://www.odmp.org/search/year/2013

21 officers have died this year not counting the dogs, in automobile related accidents. That includes those hit by car, motorcycle, run down intentionally, and pursuit deaths. So it is far more likely that they'll die in or around their car by causes other than someone shooting them, but the first thing they do is panic, and pull their guns, and start shooting when an innocent man turns around and asks what the hell is going on. He was on HIS PROPERTY, in the car of a family member, ON HIS PROPERTY.

The Father of four attacks the officer video is a perfect example. Why didn't this officer follow what would be standard procedure? The video voiceover said she was checking him for a weapon? That can be done in seconds by rubbing her hands along his body. The searching of the pockets is to establish if any evidence exists during/after the arrest. So she's wrong on the start right there. The excuse given in the video is patently false, and should be eschewed with all possible haste.

If I was on the jury, and that video was the evidence for resisting arrest and assaulting an officer. Either he would be found not guilty, or it would be a hung jury. Because I would not find him guilty based upon that. Any bets that along with suspended license, and having duplicate license, he was arrested for and charged with assaulting an officer and resisting arrest? Guilty on the first, and second. Not guilty on three and four.

[Eddie Haskell]

41. Actually, judging from the Top 10 list ...

It seems the danger comes from doing a job on or near traffic. Makes sense to me. Here's a link that confirms it: http://www.npr.org/2010/12/29/132441719/Traffic-Accidents-Leading-Cause-Of-Police-Deaths

[Ed Suspicious]

61. First video a waste of time. Shows two tense people with not violent confrontation. I don't know

what the point was. I can see where the officer might be nervous, but it did not show what was claimed.

[heaven05]

76. oh

yeah. People who excuse this type of behavior by our 'peace' officers? Yeah they have a dangerous job in that wild west we call amerikkkan culture. But damn! The man was unarmed, hands raised and still shot. You excuse that? I hope you're not a 'peace' officer.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

94. And, "What did his mother's car do?" It was just sitting there. Yet they shot it more times than him

[heaven05]

98. I

did chuckle a little.

[Dragonfli]

112. The car was suspiciously lurking in a private driveway at night

The behavior of the car can not be discounted, after all the car refused to identify itself and for all they knew was preparing to attack the officers with a hidden tire iron.

Cars were previously seen lurking in driveways across the neighborhood with lights out and some were likely casing garages for gas cans of the fluid such vehicles are known to be addicted to.

The officers had no choice but to err on the side of public safety and fire before the car could attack them.

[Jackpine Radical]

65. Roughly speaking, about 150 police are killed in the line of duty every year

out of a total of about 740,000 cops.

That's about 20 per 100,000.

It's a dangerous job, but not in the top 10. You're about 6 times more likely to be killed in commercial fishing, and 5 times more likely in logging.

[Boom Sound 416]

135. Are you kidding?

[AnotherMcIntosh]

16. Dangerous job? How dangerous can it be to shoot an unarmed man with his hands in the air?

[Sometimeswedrown]

21. That is his statement

I still want rest of the story

[AnotherMcIntosh]

24. No you don't. Not really. If you really wanted the police report, you would contact that dept

and ask for it.

You are not going to do so.

[Sometimeswedrown]

28. Yea most departments not real keen on just giving reports to joe blow

It will come out as of now not even details from their local papers.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

31. That's not true. To get a police report, you pay for it. You falsely said that you wanted a police

report.

What you did was add your own condition to a published story which you knew would not be met by you or anyone on the Internet.

If you really wanted a police report, you would order it. You are not going to do so. You don't really want a police report. You just want to disagree with a published story without any countervailing facts.

You don't know anything from the published story? Yes, you do. At a minimum, you know from the photo of the shooting victim that he was hospitalized and not in handcuffs. You also know, as adults of normal intelligence know, that when a police shooting results in hospitalization and the person shot is a criminal instead of an innocent victim, the police will put the shootee in handcuffs.

[Sometimeswedrown]

36. ???????????????????????

??????????????????????

A story of one side

[AnotherMcIntosh]

43. You really don't understand? If you really want a police report, contact the dept and pay for it.

It's a concept that is not difficult to understand.

Why are you finding it so difficult to understand?

[CreekDog]

199. yeah the other poster said the same thing about just one side

but with you chiming in, it makes it seem like two people are...

[heaven05]

79. don't

ascribe intelligence where there might be doubt.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

91. You're right.

[DevonRex]

87. And a witness statement. He's African American and it's Florida.

He WAS unarmed. He was at his mom's house. Looking for a cigarette. How would this situation suddenly turn into a belligerent black man just asking to be shot?

[Godhumor]

114. The cops mistaked the cig for Skittles and felt they had no choice

Clearly they acted reasonably.

[Eddie Haskell]

45. Judging from the statistics there are more innocent people killed by cops

than there are cops killed by people. It's not even close and trends are alarming.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

49. Cops are much more dangerous than foreign terrorists. Who has killed more innocent Americans?

[pipi_k]

141. Are you now...

or have you ever, been a cop?

If not, I suggest getting a little perspective/education on how difficult it is to make what could be life or death split second decisions.

Yeah, cops have guns.

But that doesn't mean they're freaking mind readers. They have NO way of knowing who is, and who isn't, a threat.

They like to go home every night in one piece just like the rest of the working world.

And part of the training involves assuming that every suspect has a weapon. In fact, the cop who gets lax about that or lets down his guard is in danger of being killed.

Cops know people hate them. Cops know that some people are on powerful drugs AND hate them. And I've seen enough hateful anti cop crap here at DU to believe quite strongly that quite a few would have no problem at all killing one.

Anyway. None of us was there. None of us knows exactly what happened. How compliant (or not) the man was being.

And unless someone is, or was, a cop, it's impossible to know what it's like to literally put your life on the line every day when you don't know what the suspect's intent is.

And it appears the guy was shot before being put in handcuffs. That means he hadn't even been checked for weapons yet.

So. Until the suspect has been handcuffed and weapons are either found, or not, he's a threat.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

143. Excuse me, but in my opinion, that's the stupidest thing that I've read today.

[damnedifIknow]

17. Roofers don't shoot people

And their job is far more dangerous.

[zipplewrath]

25. Actually, you heard two sides

A teenage girl who said she witnessed a portion of the incident said she never saw Middleton provoke the deputies.
“He wasn’t belligerent or anything,“ she said.

But you're right, you still haven't' heard the cops side.

[Sometimeswedrown]

32. DUH that is the same side

True the cops could say hey he was black in a car so we shot him.

[zipplewrath]

33. Objective observer

Not sure how a third party/objective observer qualifies as the "same" side.

[Eddie Haskell]

47. In his mind.

[heaven05]

82. you

are a piece of work.

[Nevernose]

38. Statistically speaking its a fairly safe job

More likely to get killed delivering pizza.

Since bullet proof vests were introduced in the late 80s, one cop in Las Vegas has been killed by gunfire. I choose Las Vegas because it's a largish-ish city with a high crime rate. That's one cop. Any guesses as to how many people the police have intentionally killed or maimed?

[Eddie Haskell]

151. Statistics don't always match perception.

I think cops are understandably wary; after all, at any moment they could become the next statistic.

[CreekDog]

42. you're saying those cops were doing something dangerous to the victim, the guy who was shot

that's true, i agree with you.

[Rex]

118. He turned around with his hands up and they shot him.

No pro piggy propaganda will fix this one, sorry.

[Scootaloo]

153. Nice boots you've got there. n/t

[WinkyDink]

163. DON'T BE A DAMN MORON. THIS MAN WAS SHOT IN HIS OWN YARD.

[datasuspect]

186. what the cops say is usually a lie

fuck the police

[City Lights]

13. Shoot first, ask questions later.

[donquijoterocket]

53. free fire zones

It's one of the consequences of militarizing the police.

[justiceischeap]

15. I remember when discharging a cops' firearm was serious business

that wasn't done lightly. Wonder when and why that changed... oh yeah, the war on drugs. When the government started equating community policing with war.

[uponit7771]

19. REALLY!! ANOTHER black dude!? Come on!! We're supposed to be "post racial" after Obama!!

[Nevernose]

39. We ARE post racial

The problem is we're not post racist.

[uponit7771]

48. VERY good point! thx

[heaven05]

84. +10000

[Zorra]

26. I avoid both criminals and cops like the plague. Either one can ruin your life

over absolutely nothing in the blink of an eye.

[pipi_k]

27. Lots of possible dumb there...

From the cops right on down to...yes...the guy who got shot.

Cops probably overreacted. Who knows what went through their minds.

But the guy who got shot...yeah, a witness says he never got belligerent or anything, which, IMO, doesn't mean shit coming from the mouth of a teenager, and I don't care what color the kid is. So many teenagers have belligerent attitudes and don't even know it. So...a person can be mildly confrontational without being belligerent.

and this is something nobody knows...

when he turned around, did he do it after being TOLD to?

Did he follow cops' instructions to the letter? If he did, then the cops are 100% wrong here.

If he was not told to turn around, and did it quickly, I can't blame anybody for thinking the worst. How the hell are they supposed to know who he is, what his intent is, and whether or not he has a weapon?

This is another one of those "not the whole story" type of stories.

Word of advice to everybody...if you're ever stopped by the cops, follow. their. instructions.

I'm a white middle aged lady, and even I would follow that advice.

Anyway, good to know that the guy will survive.

[Savannahmann]

30. Intent matters when it's the police?

One of the claims made about Snowden and Manning was their intent didn't matter. They say they intended to raise awareness of the actions of the Government. Yet intent doesn't matter, because their actions "aided the enemy".

So intent doesn't matter for the little people, but for the Police, intent is the one thing we must give them the benefit of the doubt on. I believe I understand now, and I wish I didn't.

[the_sly_pig]

51. Education matters when hiring police.

In some states, all it takes is a high school education. In states like mine, in order to get hired an officer needs a four year degree minimum.

It makes a difference. Generally, stupid people, do stupid things.

[Savannahmann]

70. Plenty of educated people have done stupid things too.

Wisdom does not come from intelligence. How often has the dumbest person been the one with the most education. George W. Bush had a degree from Harvard, which is normally associated with higher learning of the N'th degree. Yet who can say he was truly wise, or smart?

Application of education, of knowledge, is often the most difficult thing. I remember a story, from the 1970's. A big truck tried to go through the Lincoln Tunnel, it was too tall, and got stuck at the entrance. The Engineers were all there arguing about how to remove the truck. Cutting torches to disassemble the truck enough to winch it out without further damage to the tunnel was winning the argument. A car was going past, slowly there was but one lane available. Inside was a little girl, who asked her Mother why they didn't let the air out of the tires. Someone overheard the little girl, the window on the car was down.

It was one of those moments when everyone blinks and asks themselves the same question. Why didn't I think of that? With the air out of the tires, the truck would be at least four inches shorter, and would be able to be winched out without any damage, and far more quickly. Later this technique was used to life heavy things, large bags of compressed air that were able to shift and move incredibly heavy objects.

All those engineers were very smart, very educated, and very knowledgeable. But they didn't see the obvious answer, because their training, their education was all on one dimension if you will. They were not looking at the whole picture, and seeing it.

I could give you examples of other history. Generals and Admirals who acted stupidly, ignoring the obvious to get to the unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

Admiral Kurita in the Battle of Samar. He was convinced he was facing a superior fleet, and victory other than what he had was impossible. Despite the fact he had a much more powerful battle fleet, and nothing for hundreds of miles could hope to stop him. He saw his fears, and took action to prevent them from coming true.

Same battle, Admiral Halsey charged off after the Japanese Carriers, leaving the door which Admiral Kurita entered open. Admiral Halsey stupidly charged after his goal, his dream of tackling the Japanese Carriers and finally sinking them was at hand. He would not be dissuaded and no comments from his Staff could make him see the error. The error that many others saw.

My point is this. Continuing with my military examples. What is the difference between a General, and a Private? The Private is never in a position to lose the war. He might lose a skirmish, or even cause a minor slice of a battle to be lost. But only the General can lose the war. Because we don't trust the Private to give him the kind of authority he needs to make catastrophic mistakes.

The General on the other hand, has the power.

Back to our Police officers. All the education in the world can not help them apply that knowledge to situations. If they make a mistake, then it is likely fatal to any victim of the mistake. The obvious first answer is honesty. You must be able to honestly admit your mistakes, and learn from them the way Doctors do. Young inexperienced Doctors often make mistakes and patients die. It is sad, but the young doctor learns and never makes that mistake again. It isn't negligence, it is merely inexperience. But that young doctor learns, and grows wiser, and later makes far fewer mistakes. He becomes the more godlike being we associate with the word Doctor.

The Doctors talk amongst themselves, bringing the young doctor along, teaching him. Letting him learn the mistakes, and the way things really work in the world, the world outside of the books. In time, you get a good doctor if there is one to be had within the young one.

Police could be the same way, working together to make each one better. But instead they work together to cover up mistakes, to deny them, to lie about them. So the young officer learns that he must lie to protect his brother officers, and they will lie to protect him. It's us versus them, and whenever you view the world that way, the only answer you will ever get from any sentient species is the same. If it's us or them, I choose us. So the Police spend the rest of their lives with the flawed premise, it's us versus them. That shadows their thinking, and their reactions are all begun from that singularly wrong point of view. to Serve and protect is propaganda, designed to help maintain the support of some of them, for us. We can tell you anything, and you'll believe it because you are under the delusion you are part of us trying to stop them.

Principle matters more than education. An educated man will lie, cheat, and steal as easily as the uneducated man. It is principle, what things will you not do no matter what. That is what matters most. If you will lie, cheat, or plant evidence, and a vast majority of police will do one or even all three, then cop is the one job you should never be allowed to have. Principle is not derived from higher education, but from early upbringing, and the lessons of life that you experience.

[NutmegYankee]

81. Just for info, the girl suggesting to deflate tires is likely a myth

I heard the same story about the Hampton Roads Bridge tunnel in Virginia. It's likely an urban myth.

[Savannahmann]

85. Almost certainly

Yet the truth is that often in our lives, someone sees something that the rest of us don't. BTW I said it was a story. I did not (and normally do not) say the same things about Admirals Kurita and Halsey. You also note that I did not categorize Kurita's actions as stupid while I did categorize Halsey's as such?

How often have we both seen that story come to life though. When someone sees something so blindingly simple that we kick ourselves and wonder why we didn't see that first?

[NutmegYankee]

89. Understood.

But I'm an engineer (mechanical), so I didn't like the slap at us.

[Paulie]

105. Ya never used duct tape when a proper fastener was required?

[Savannahmann]

120. Everyone, even mechanical engineers overlooks something.

We're human. We're made with flaws. It's the nature of the universe. I meant no insult towards engineers, I used the story, which was listed as such, as an example of one of those oh yes moments that we all have when the obvious is pointed out to us.

Everyone has them. Everyone misses that which is right in front of them at some point of our lives. Because none of us are perfect. If we were perfect, we would not be men we would be gods. I don't think we're quite ready for that, as a species. Give us another million years or so, and we'll see.

ON EDIT: I just remembered something I wish I had put in. So I am. NASA Engineers are hardly idiots. They are among the brightest of those in the field of Materials and Rocket Science. They do math in their heads that I couldn't do on my computer. But when Challenger blew up, only a few understood why it had happened. It was the limits of the materials, and those limits were such that a launch in those conditions was akin to Russian Roulette. You might win, but if you're a loser, you lose everything.

When Columbia burned up on reentry, it took some time before the truth was known, because the instinctive understanding was such that it overshadowed the Engineering and laws of physics. They saw the impact of the foam on the left wing, and their experience told them that it was foam. Your car doesn't blow up when you run over a Styrofoam cooler, why would the Shuttle.

Only later, when they used an air cannon to test the idea, was the truth finally known by all. The foam was not only the cause, but had in essence doomed the flight. Only a very risky rescue scheme would have worked to save the crew, but nobody believed it was needed, because what danger does a little foam represent?

These are smart and experienced Engineers. Not idiots. Educated to understand their chosen fields. I don't blame them, because again, we are all human. We make mistakes, and we try very hard to learn from them and never make the mistake again. I could list example after example. Nobody is perfect, and we all miss things.

[Igel]

103. Intent matters when it matters.

Sometimes it's hard to imagine how it would, and the existence of alternative ways of accomplishing that intent would also matter.

So if I am trespassing in a store, it's an illegal act. Can there be extenuating circumstances? Sure. I was held at gunpoint and forced into the store. Perhaps I saw somebody kidnap a young girl and drag her into the store. Perhaps I heard somebody screaming for help. The "good intent" had better seem reasonable, however.

If I'm caught robbing a store, though, it's harder to find extenuating circumstances. Feeding your family? Well, perhaps, but if you're taking cash or jewelry, no. The "extenuating circumstance" also doesn't change what you were doing. If you trespass for a good reason, you're not there to trespass. If you rob because your family's hungry, you are there to rob.

Intent mattered for the guy who shot the kid he accused, sort of, of stealing his shotgun. And it's going to matter for the guy who was drinking and shot one of the two kids in his living room--did he shoot them as they walked in without warning, did he shoot them as he showed them his guns, or did he lure them in saying he was going to show them but really intended to kill one?

And it will matter for the police. Doesn't look good for them, though, but if it's dark and the guy disobeyed instructions it'll go better. It'll also matter what the neighborhood's like, but the cops' "common experiences" and "interpretation of history" won't matter all that much.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

44. He was following their instructions.

As soon as he understood that they were the police.

[pipi_k]

66. Is there

footage of this encounter?

Or a link to a different account which states objectively exactly what happened?

Because the linked article doesn't say exactly how the incident went down...whether the police told him to turn around slowly, he did, and then he was shot.

I saw no details in the article.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

71. If the police wanted to release any contrary information, or a video, they could do so.

The linked article shows a photo of the shooting victim in a hospital bed with no handcuffs. The police didn't even make up a story about him "resisting arrest." They didn't even plant a "drop gun" or bag of marijuana to justify their shooting.

Apparently, however, some police advocate may be able to claim that shooting him was an accident. After all, the cops put lots of holes in his mother's car but only put one in him.

[heaven05]

93. this

person you're responding to? M.O. never changes. Don't waste good intellect on someone not worth it.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

95. Good advice.

[pipi_k]

128. Here's the thing, dear...

at least the person you're replying to is USING intellect instead of lobbing out stinky little one liners that he or she thinks are terribly witty.

If you disagree with my opinions, fine. Use your brain to argue for your position.

If you can't do that, it's your problem...not mine.

[heaven05]

130. I

tried arguing with you at one time. At least the person I was responding to understood the waste of time and intellect YOU ARE. I'm not your dear, honey, so refrain from using that when addressing me. I will not ever agan waste time trying to understand your pro murder positions, florida, your pro, he had brown skin so he should immediately be suspected by neighbor and in your argument, by you. I think you really have some racial issues that you're not facing but which are extremely evident to people reading your responses to race centered stories. You will not be hearing anything else from me on this dear, but you will hear from me EVERY time you come up with your rationalizations for how it's not racism its, its........

[pipi_k]

157. If that's all

you've been able to come away with, then you haven't been actually THINKING about what I write. Just reacting based on what you want to believe.

You know, I get a little sick and tired of seeing the same bunch run around here pointing the finger at others and yelling "racist!" all the time when something doesn't go their way. They don't take the time to understand..."racist!!!"

They want to believe they're so moral and pure and above the crowd..."racist!"

What gives you or anyone else the right to label anyone a racist?

What right do you have to sit there and, not even understanding what the hell point I'm trying to make, tell me I'm the one with race problems?

I've said it before and I'll say it again...NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT RACE.

Unless you have some secret pipeline into someone else's brain, you have no right to label someone that way.


So. You want to discuss other issues, fine. I'll happily do that. But if you want to pop in and out of threads just to tell other people what a waste of their time I am, you will probably get told off just like you have been.

Dear.

[heaven05]

170. I

Last edited Thu Aug 1, 2013, 10:54 AM - Edit history (1)

Who cares what you're sick of, I DON'T! If the description fits, it fits. No getting around that. What your statements say outright or imply let's me know exactly what you and others are thinking and the mode you operate on day to day, so I don't need a pipeline into your brain. You expose and have exposed your brain machinations(intellect) time after time on this site for everyone one with deductive powers and it ain't pretty. It's sad that this site has so many of you, this supposed site for 'progressives' and 'libruls'. I get sick of seeing the same bunch of apologists on here excusing everything from RACIST murders to police abuse of authority WITH A GUN. Who are you to throw stones, given that glass house you live in. I see everything you are. From the start of this country, IT HAS BEEN ABOUT RACE, CLASS, WHITE PRIVILEGE and ENTITLEMENT from the very beginning!!!! And since Barack Obama became POTUS, even more so by the whiny class.Take your distracting bullshit somewhere else where you'll be understood. ZIMPIGS site would be a start for you and the others of your ilk, sweetie. Your point(s) are well understood by me and many others, they aren't worth the letters it takes to spell them out. I'm through discussing anything with you or your ilk. Total waste of time and by the way, thou protesteth too much. Your shame is showing. Sweetie. No need to respond, I really do read and understand EVERYTHING you have said, you're saying now or implying and you'll get no more time from me, your session is over. Dear.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

132. One-liners can be appropriate when a person rejects 2 eyewitnesses even when the cops did not

contradict them and there is nothing else to contradict them.

[pipi_k]

129. If they have any video...

then I hope they release it, just so people can see the truth about what happened.

I don't know if the shooting was an accident, and I probably wouldn't claim it was. To me, accident means their fingers were on the triggers and someone stumbled or whatever, causing the gun to go off. That's probably not what happened.

I'm glad to know that they didn't try to justify the shooting by planting a gun or illegal drugs on him.

Anyway, the story isn't 100% clear on the entire incident, so if there's video, I'd love to see it.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

133. Don't you get it? THEY DON'T HAVE ANY CONTRARY VIDEO.

[pipi_k]

158. Of course not

which, unfortunately, makes it all that much easier for the cop haters and finger pointers to run amok with the stupid bullshit.

Critical thinking is not highly valued here for many.

Read an article...OMG!!!! OH NOES!!!

Things must have happened exactly the way the article says...even though they're only written from the point of view of one side.



You know, if this article had been written from the POV of the police, I would still question how accurate it was.

I really don't understand why people think it's cool to only believe what they've been told without considering that maybe...

just maybe

there could be another side to the story.

whatever. No video.

great. Now people can sit around their computers parroting whatever they read without thinking about all the different possibilities.

meh.

[heaven05]

88. you're

a piece of work. Not surprised at what you wrote.

[pipi_k]

122. Too bad

you don't seem to understand what I meant.

[NOLALady]

203. I understand

exactly what you meant.

[RedCappedBandit]

115. Turning around quickly is punishable by execution. Got it. nt

[pipi_k]

121. Oh please

stop it.

I never said turning around quickly was grounds for execution.

[RedCappedBandit]

138. Nah, you're just blaming the innocent guy for getting shot.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

142. Rec

[heaven05]

174. good

for you. There's silence from the opposing party.

[pipi_k]

179. Once more...

as I've said elsewhere in this thread...

He's innocent in retrospect. NOW we know what he was doing.

When the cops were called and showed up in the guy's driveway, they had no idea who he was, what he was doing, or whether or not he had a weapon.

And as I also said...if they gave him specific instructions which he did not follow, despite repeated attempts to get the message across to him, they have every right to assume there is something suspicious...or very wrong.

It's entirely possible that only one cop had an itchy trigger finger, and when he fired, the others thought he saw a real threat and fired as well. Knee-jerk reaction, sort of. Or maybe the guy reached into his pants pocket to get his wallet and ID and it looked like a very small handgun. Nobody knows the little details, but people assume it's because he was black.

There are quite a few possibilities OTHER than that they're all miserable stinking racists.

[RedCappedBandit]

208. And at the end of the day, an innocent guy got fired,

and you're trying to justify it by blaming the victim.

[valerief]

46. Florida. I have a friend who lives there who says it's the worse state in the nation,

even worse than Texas. I think she's right.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

52. Your friend, apparently, has not been to Illinois.

[valerief]

57. Maybe, but Illinois doesn't have Stand Your Ground or criminal fraudster Rick Scott as gov.

Of course, there's violence everywhere there's poverty. Violence doesn't have to be legislated, however.

Scum-sucking toilet states below:
Alabama (enacted: 2006)
Alaska (enacted: 2011)
Arizona (enacted:2006 )
Florida (enacted: 2005)
Georgia (enacted:2006)
Indiana (enacted: 2006)
Kansas (enacted:2006)
Kentucky (enacted:2006)
Louisiana (enacted:2006)
Michigan (enacted:2006)
Mississippi (enacted: 2006)
Missouri (enacted: 2007)
Montana (enacted: 2009)
Nevada (enacted:2011)
New Hampshire (enacted:2011)
North Carolina (enacted:2011)
North Dakota (enacted: 2007)
Ohio (enacted: 2008)
Oklahoma (enacted:2006)
Pennsylvania (enacted:2011)
South Carolina (enacted: 2008)
Tennessee (enacted: 2007)
Texas (enacted: 2007)
Utah (enacted:2010)
West Virginia (enacted: 2008)
Wisconsin (enacted: 2011)
Read more: http://globalgrind.com/news/stand-your-ground-law-26-states-breakdown-meaning-list#ixzz2aSHp3FMr

[AnotherMcIntosh]

69. According to Legal Aid, Illinois statutes, an Illinois Supreme Court decision, Illinois has SYG law.

"Question:
"Does Illinois have a “stand your ground” law, like the one in Florida?

"Answer:
"Yes. Article 7 of the Illinois Criminal Code includes a law that is similar to Florida. It’s a “self-defense” that can defeat both criminal and civil liability.
...
"In 1953, our Supreme Court said they had “repeatedly held” that someone “put in apparent danger of his life or of great bodily harm need not attempt to escape but may repel force with force, even to the taking of an assailant's life, if necessary or apparently so, to prevent bodily harm.”

http://www.illinoislegalaid.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.dsp_content&contentID=8357

The viability of a SYG defense was recognized and upheld in 1921 by the U.S. Supreme Court in Brown v. United States, 256 U.S. 335 (1921).
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/256/335/case.html

The concept is not a new one.

It's true that we don't have Rick Scott. But we've got Rahm, or he has us.

[vaberella]

90. Texas. Texas is nothing compared to Michigan and Florida.

Florida is most definitely the worst state in the nation followed by Michigan, then Arizona, then Wisconsin. Texas is a bit below the bar.

[DonRedwood]

50. You should add: Cops feel threatened, use stand your ground defense.

[Apophis]

55. Black man in a car in the driveway at 2:42 am = automatic thief.

Shoot first, ask questions later.

Fucking pigs.

[Sometimeswedrown]

67. Devils advocate again (ALSO AGAIN we do not know all the details)

Police officers dispatched at 2:30 in the morning to a possible car break in.

Officers arrive seeing an individual leaning over into a car.

They have no clue who this person is (again 2:30 a.m. on a break in call) no police officer in his right mind is going to simply walk up to the car. From training first thing is to have the person stand and show hands, now we see the officers fired several rounds.

My question is what threat did the officers see that made them react this way?

Perfectly logical wanting to know why.

[Apophis]

68. It's perfectly fine to shoot first and ask questions later then, right?

After all, it could be something logical like the guy's mother's car and he was simply searching for a cigarette.

Spare me your bullshit.

[Sometimeswedrown]

72. PLEASE

Guy jumps from car and makes threatening move just one reason officers may have felt the need to shoot?

I may be wrong it may turn out these two are yes a part of law enforcement that need their ass handed to them but without facts of BOTH sides hard to make the argument they simply wanted to shoot someone.

[EvilAL]

92. There can be no reason for them to shoot

at this man. none. He was unarmed and in the fucking driveway. Cops are fuckin cowards these days. Move too fast.. SHOOT!! Turn around too fast.. SHOOT!! Run away, SHOOT IN THE BACK!!

[DevonRex]

102. Look, at 2:30 you get home from a long road trip. You have to

take some things in the house so you're going back and forth from the car. You're leaning into the front seat to get your sunglasses and wallet out from the console when there are lights on you all the sudden. You hear the police tell you to stand up and face them with your hands in the air.

You do. They shoot you because they think your car keys and sunglasses are a weapon. Unfortunately, you're dead so you won't be here to tell everyone that sunglasses and car keys look just like a gun. Don't worry though. Nothing happens to them. The people who reviewed the incident think just like you do.

[Kingofalldems]

125. Where does it say 'guy jumps from car and makes threatening move'?

You just made that up. Please refrain from making things up.

[WinkyDink]

165. The police "amended" their initial report.

[WinkyDink]

164. You really are something. How do you think YOU might react if a bunch of men SCREAMED AT YOU

TO GET YOUR HANDS UP?

AND YOU WERE A BLACK MAN....IN FLORIDA?

MIGHT YOU BE A TAD, SAY, STARTLED? JUMPY? MIGHT YOU TURN AROUND SUDDENLY?

JUST KNOCK THIS THE HELL OFF.

[heaven05]

176. you're right

you're drowning. May be wrong? geez 16-17 bullets toward an unarmed man facing you with hands raised? Need both sides? Yep. You're drowning. geez

[Igel]

106. It's called "understanding."

Trying to figure out the other person's perspective, point of view.

In many ways--pretty much all, actually--it's empathy.

It's easy to have empathy for those you are in solidarity with--and we make excuses, we take their side, we find justification. It's hard to have empathy for those that you think are hostile or not in your group--we make their actions as bad as possible, we deny any possibility of good or reasonable intent.

A lot of sociologists and anthropologists like to talk about the "Other." Everybody has an "Other." It's good to try to understand them instead of continuing to "otherize" them (new obnoxious word I heard today in a discussion about Egypt).

[WinkyDink]

167. "Empathy" for cops who fired 17 bullets at a man IN HIS OWN DRIVEWAY?

[pipi_k]

177. One thing I'd like to see...

Required in all high schools...

Video game simulations of different situations the police would face in the course of a day...or their careers.

It might make the streets safer and give ignorant people a look into how difficult it is to make split second decisions that don't kill other people, but which also don't leave the officers dead.

It's really kind of sad to sit here and read how "The pigs shot an unarmed man!!!" when it's only known in retrospect that the person was unarmed.

What do people want...police to be mind readers? To know beforehand whether someone is a threat or not?

Do they want the police to assume that nobody is a threat? That's not how it works. When they do that, they can end up dead.

I've seen video where an apparently compliant suspect suddenly turns and attacks the officer. Plenty where the guy is so strong or hopped up on drugs that it takes two...three...or more...strong men to subdue him.

Maybe if more people actually got to put themselves...even just for a few hours via a video game, much like how they show kids what happens from texting while driving...in the place of police officers they wouldn't be running around judging or second-guessing.

I would bet that most of the loudest voices would fail miserably...either ending up "killing" suspects, or being "killed" themselves.

[Cal Carpenter]

185. You seem to want the cops to be judge, jury and executioner

It's some seriously fucked up shit you are arguing for. I almost think you are doing it ironically to show what a fucked up argument it is. But I fear you believe what you are saying. Scary.

[Comrade Grumpy]

86. Q: What did the officers see that made them react this way? A: A black guy.

[heaven05]

97. threat he saw?

BLACK SKIN!!!!! What don't you understand about the inanity of your responses??? You're not advocating for the devil you......

[Spirochete]

146. I'm sure he charged right at them

with a running chainsaw, just like that thug Trayvon Martin, screaming "Die, Peckerwood Pigs!"

Welcome to DU - our badge-sniffer supply was running low...

[WinkyDink]

166. "Several rounds"? SEVENTEEN casings found at scene.

[datasuspect]

188. you presuppose that the police act in good faith

this betrays your obvious law enforcement bias.

i got some leftover badge polish for sale. cheap.

[Blue_Tires]

99. +1

[Boomer]

58. Reverse progress

So we've gone from Driving While Black to Home While Black as reasons for police action. Yay USA.

[jtuck004]

60. Damn. Have they never heard of Chantix?

Or chewing gum?

There are LOTS of other ways to get people to stop smoking...

[Egalitarian Thug]

62. He should have just told them to leave the milk at the door.

[killbotfactory]

64. He was armed with concrete, you can never be too careful. nt

[libodem]

75. Of course

He WAS armed. This excuses everything.

[heaven05]

73. I

just knew he was black. Hope he gets a good lawyer. Open fucking season and I just don't base that opinion on articles from this site. Zimmerman verdict, you did it jurors! I just know you people are sleeping well at night knowing you put those 60 year old thugs in their place. Bam!!! Halt!

[vaberella]

83. Cops sure hate Black people. No problem, we hate them back.n/t

[OnlinePoker]

100. Seems like the cops in that county have guns and like to use them.

This is from the 5th of July.

http://www.pnj.com/article/20130705/NEWS11/130705017/Escambia-County-One-dead-in-deputy-involved-shooting

[AnotherMcIntosh]

110. But not like them enough to use them for practice. n/t

[SleeplessinSoCal]

107. Is there no tipping point? How many more overly zealous cops do we have to live or die with?

This family may not be mad, but I and many, many others are.

[Dawson Leery]

113. oink

[TheLion]

116. What cops don't realize...

...is that their "Black in Florida = 'fair game'" philosophy just means that more innocent victims are going to come out shooting.

Bad for the victim, bad for the cops. Bad all around.

But when a segment of the population decides that it's got nothing to lose, bad things happen.

I won;t be going back to Floriduh any time soon.

[Rex]

117. Okay I know this is a stupid question BUT

WHY did they shoot him when he turned to face them with hands raised? I mean, if he was half way in the car and looked like he could be going for a gun, I can see them shooting. BUT hands raised and facing the cops?

Are they really that out of control in this country?

[HarveyDarkey]

119. Yes they are

[WinkyDink]

169. Question asked and answered.

[uponit7771]

196. +1

[Rex]

197. I mean, I cannot even believe I would make a lame excuse for the cops.

BUT he wasn't even in the car anymore and his hands were up! What else can one say?

[uponit7771]

201. ...the police say he "lunged", stuff like this needs to be on video but it doesn't matter Mike Dunn

...is on video shooting up a car full of black teens and kills one and then STILL claims SYG cause "in his mind" he saw a gun...

That's enough in Florida

[Warpy]

126. Sounds like the cop was lowering his gun

but stupidly kept his finger on the trigger. That's the reason it was a survivable gunshot wound.

I'd rate this one as an accident. The city still needs to pay his bills and any rehab costs, while the cop needs to sit in some gun safety classes.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

144. The cop was lowering his gun? And it went off accidentally? FIVE TIMES?

[WinkyDink]

168. How do you account for the other 16 bullets fired?

[Warpy]

173. Once one idiot fires his gun, they all panic and fire theirs.

[heaven05]

175. warped

rationalizing.

[muriel_volestrangler]

183. We know now that's not the case, but what made you think it in the first place?

I can't see anything whatsoever in the articles that could possibly be about one of them 'lowering his gun'. See #181 for a link showing the police admit they intended to shoot him.

[WinkyDink]

172. "In her carport, 17 shell casings had been found,"---Anyone who asks for "empathy" for the cops here

can go straight to Hell.

This citizen was attacked like he was Bonnie and Clyde, FGS. He "spun around" because he had unknown men screaming at him to get out of his own car!

That he survived this barrage at all is a miracle.

[muriel_volestrangler]

180. Update: neighbor called him 'a black man' in 911 call; the police were afraid he had a gun

The two deputies responded to a 911 call from Middleton’s neighbor who, standing nearby, reported that a black man was in his neighbor’s four-door car and trying to hotwire it.
...
“No ... this is crazy,” the caller replied. “I’m standing out here in the middle of the yard talking on the phone and he’s hardly even noticed me.”
...
They again instructed Middleton to show his hands, and he responded by opening the car door and making a movement to exit the car before lunging back inside, the sheriff reported. As the officers continued to command him out of the vehicle, he exited the vehicle in “a lunging motion and very quickly,” Morgan said.
...
The sheriff said the fact that Middleton had failed to comply with instructions, that he was holding an object and that the hand behind his back could have been holding a gun prompted Meeks, followed by White, to open fire.

http://www.pnj.com/article/20130730/NEWS01/307300016/Escambia-County-Sheriff-Deputies-felt-threatened-before-shooting-man-in-yard

Notice (in what I couldn't excerpt) that they asked him to show his hands - and he did show one (being inside the car, that was probably all he could show outside it). That didn't satisfy them, so they asked again, and he gets out - which would enable him to show them both of his hands. The police talk about 'lunging' - a rather subjective characterisation of movement. And that, with an 'object', is enough for them to open fire. And the 2nd policeman said that, since he couldn't positively see that the man under fire wasn't returning fire, he opened fire too - so now, if the police aren't good enough to see you're not firing, they will treat you as if you are.

All in all, we have here a couple of Zimmermans, on the police force. Luckily, they missed the vital organs.

[pipi_k]

190. I'll agree that while the word

"lunging" is subjective, at least this is another side of the story.

If he did indeed lunge, or make some other seemingly threatening movement, it's understandable (to me, anyway) that the cops...unfortunately for everyone in this instance...reacted from instinct.

[muriel_volestrangler]

192. No policeman should have the instinct to shoot

They should only shoot when they have decided to. They are employed to be thinking humans, not mindless animals acting on instinct.

[Comrade Grumpy]

205. If I were the guy who got shot, I'd be having a word or two with that neighbor.