A letter from Edward Snowden’s father and his lawyer, Bruce Fein, to President Obama:

[Catherina]

July 26th, 2013
A letter from Edward Snowden’s father and his lawyer, Bruce Fein, to President Obama:

July 26, 2013
President Barack Obama
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20500

Re: Civil Disobedience, Edward J. Snowden, and the Constitution

Dear Mr. President:

You are acutely aware that the history of liberty is a history of civil disobedience to unjust laws or practices. As Edmund Burke sermonized, “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”

Civil disobedience is not the first, but the last option. Henry David Thoreau wrote with profound restraint in Civil Disobedience:

“If the injustice is part of the necessary friction of the machine of government, let it go, let it go: perchance it will wear smooth certainly the machine will wear out. If the injustice has a spring, or a pulley, or a rope, or a crank, exclusively for itself, then perhaps you may consider whether the remedy will not be worse than the evil; but if it is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law. Let your life be a counter friction to stop the machine.”

Thoreau’s moral philosophy found expression during the Nuremburg trials in which “following orders” was rejected as a defense. Indeed, military law requires disobedience to clearly illegal orders.

A dark chapter in America’s World War II history would not have been written if the then United States Attorney General had resigned rather than participate in racist concentration camps imprisoning 120,000 Japanese American citizens and resident aliens.

Civil disobedience to the Fugitive Slave Act and Jim Crow laws provoked the end of slavery and the modern civil rights revolution.

We submit that Edward J. Snowden’s disclosures of dragnet surveillance of Americans under § 215 of the Patriot Act, § 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act Amendments, or otherwise were sanctioned by Thoreau’s time-honored moral philosophy and justifications for civil disobedience. Since 2005, Mr. Snowden had been employed by the intelligence community. He found himself complicit in secret, indiscriminate spying on millions of innocent citizens contrary to the spirit if not the letter of the First and Fourth Amendments and the transparency indispensable to self-government. Members of Congress entrusted with oversight remained silent or Delphic. Mr. Snowden confronted a choice between civic duty and passivity. He may have recalled the injunction of Martin Luther King, Jr.: “He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it.” Mr. Snowden chose duty. Your administration vindictively responded with a criminal complaint alleging violations of the Espionage Act.

From the commencement of your administration, your secrecy of the National Security Agency’s Orwellian surveillance programs had frustrated a national conversation over their legality, necessity, or morality. That secrecy (combined with congressional nonfeasance) provoked Edward’s disclosures, which sparked a national conversation which you have belatedly and cynically embraced. Legislation has been introduced in both the House of Representatives and Senate to curtail or terminate the NSA’s programs, and the American people are being educated to the public policy choices at hand. A commanding majority now voice concerns over the dragnet surveillance of Americans that Edward exposed and you concealed. It seems mystifying to us that you are prosecuting Edward for accomplishing what you have said urgently needed to be done!

The right to be left alone from government snooping–the most cherished right among civilized people—is the cornerstone of liberty. Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson served as Chief Prosecutor at Nuremburg. He came to learn of the dynamics of the Third Reich that crushed a free society, and which have lessons for the United States today.

Writing in Brinegar v. United States, Justice Jackson elaborated:

The Fourth Amendment states: “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

These, I protest, are not mere second-class rights but belong in the catalog of indispensable freedoms. Among deprivations of rights, none is so effective in cowing a population, crushing the spirit of the individual and putting terror in every heart. Uncontrolled search and seizure is one of the first and most effective weapons in the arsenal of every arbitrary government. And one need only briefly to have dwelt and worked among a people possessed of many admirable qualities but deprived of these rights to know that the human personality deteriorates and dignity and self-reliance disappear where homes, persons and possessions are subject at any hour to unheralded search and seizure by the police.

We thus find your administration’s zeal to punish Mr. Snowden’s discharge of civic duty to protect democratic processes and to safeguard liberty to be unconscionable and indefensible.

We are also appalled at your administration’s scorn for due process, the rule of law, fairness, and the presumption of innocence as regards Edward.

On June 27, 2013, Mr. Fein wrote a letter to the Attorney General stating that Edward’s father was substantially convinced that he would return to the United States to confront the charges that have been lodged against him if three cornerstones of due process were guaranteed. The letter was not an ultimatum, but an invitation to discuss fair trial imperatives. The Attorney General has sneered at the overture with studied silence.

We thus suspect your administration wishes to avoid a trial because of constitutional doubts about application of the Espionage Act in these circumstances, and obligations to disclose to the public potentially embarrassing classified information under the Classified Information Procedures Act.

Your decision to force down a civilian airliner carrying Bolivian President Eva Morales in hopes of kidnapping Edward also does not inspire confidence that you are committed to providing him a fair trial. Neither does your refusal to remind the American people and prominent Democrats and Republicans in the House and Senate like House Speaker John Boehner, Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi, Congresswoman Michele Bachmann,and Senator Dianne Feinstein that Edward enjoys a presumption of innocence. He should not be convicted before trial. Yet Speaker Boehner has denounced Edward as a “traitor.”

Ms. Pelosi has pontificated that Edward “did violate the law in terms of releasing those documents.” Ms. Bachmann has pronounced that, “This was not the act of a patriot; this was an act of a traitor.” And Ms. Feinstein has decreed that Edward was guilty of “treason,” which is defined in Article III of the Constitution as “levying war” against the United States, “or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.”

You have let those quadruple affronts to due process pass unrebuked, while you have disparaged Edward as a “hacker” to cast aspersion on his motivations and talents. Have you forgotten the Supreme Court’s gospel in Berger v. United States that the interests of the government “in a criminal prosecution is not that it shall win a case, but that justice shall be done?”

We also find reprehensible your administration’s Espionage Act prosecution of Edward for disclosures indistinguishable from those which routinely find their way into the public domain via your high level appointees for partisan political advantage. Classified details of your predator drone protocols, for instance, were shared with the New York Times with impunity to bolster your national security credentials. Justice Jackson observed in Railway Express Agency, Inc. v. New York: “The framers of the Constitution knew, and we should not forget today, that there is no more effective practical guaranty against arbitrary and unreasonable government than to require that the principles of law which officials would impose upon a minority must be imposed generally.”

In light of the circumstances amplified above, we urge you to order the Attorney General to move to dismiss the outstanding criminal complaint against Edward, and to support legislation to remedy the NSA surveillance abuses he revealed. Such presidential directives would mark your finest constitutional and moral hour.

Sincerely,
Bruce Fein
Counsel for Lon Snowden
Lon Snowden

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/tvnews/dateline%20nbc/obama.pdf

[Catherina]

1. In related news, Bradley Manning case has now formally concluded

WikiLeaks ?@wikileaks 35m

Bradley Manning case has now formally concluded. God speed, for the long road ahead Bradley.

God speed, for the long road ahead Bradley.

[MjolnirTime]

4. You mean the long sentence ahead, right?

[Blue Palasky]

25. no, that's prob not what they meant

[flamingdem]

2. Snowden's US lawyer is Libertarian "powerhouse" Bruce Fein

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023152401

Previous thread has some background on Fein and his ties

[Mojorabbit]

31. No one cares about libertarians. nt

[arely staircase]

40. and his russian lawyer is KGB nt

[sabrina 1]

42. Bruce Fein was a longtime hero to DU. Well he was, during the Bush years. Seems a lot of things

have changed since the old Bush days. Heros have transformed into monsters, and monsters into supporters.

[Th1onein]

92. Get with the program! When Obama does it, it's okay!

Geez. When will YOU PEOPLE learn?

[sabrina 1]

95. Lol, you're right. It's just hard to keep up with the former heroes, now being smeared, and the

former villains no on our side. I will have to try harder to keep up with the latest 'hero' who gets tossed but it is hard work.

[truedelphi]

132. Just to add some clarity about the issue

Some libertarians hate Snowden. Some Democrats hate Snowden. Some Republicans hate Snowden.

I happened to be at a relative' home the week that Snowden let it be known that he was the leaker. Greta Van Sustern was on the TV - and her Republican guests roundly denounced Snowden, although moments later they roundly denounced ObamaCare. (Apparently losing the Bill of Rights is not a worry to them.)

Follow the money. People of all various parties who are positioned to be inside the workings of the gravy train that is the Surveillance State are against Snowden -- because it affects their economic interests.

Those who value the meaning of the Bill of Rights, and who want our inalienable rights protected, we value Snowden. Cuts across party lines, it does.

[MjolnirTime]

3. The Father is smarter than the Son. Sorry, Dad. Your boy's going to jail. He's a traitor.

[jaysunb]

6. +1 to all you said. n/t

[AllINeedIsCoffee]

8. ...

[bvar22]

22. Looks to me like Intelligence and Courage to Speak the Truth ....

...runs in Snowden's family!


The Conservative Royalists called the young American Revolutionaries "traitors" too.
They also called them "cowards" because they ran away and lived to fight another day
instead of handing themselves over to the government,
or standing up in a straight line and letting the Government Troops gun them down.

I've always thought they were pretty smart,
but I see we have the 2013 version of the Royalists still with us today.

Snowden exposed Wrong Doing.
I'm glad he did.
I have a right to KNOW what my government is doing in MY name,
and I'm inspired by seeing his father STAND with him so eloquently and honorably.
I don't consider them "traitors".
I consider them "patriots".

Our country was FOUNDED on the principle that our Government was subordinate to The People. A Government so obsessed with "secrecy" can NOT be held accountable to The People.

[hueymahl]

29. Thank you for your consistent clarity of thought on this topic.

It is refreshing in this age of authouritarians, royalists, apologists and other folks who prefer to sacrifice safety for liberty.

[Kolesar]

33. He is an impulsive fool

Sucks for him

[sabrina 1]

43. Why would any Democrat want to protect the Bush War Criminals? Manning is a hero

for what he did. Or is it that you have no clue what he revealed? Because no Democrat that I know would be on the side of the Bush/Cheney war criminals when it comes to someone like Manning who exposed their crimes in Iraq.

[Fire Walk With Me]

52. Under Obama, four sections of the Bill of Rights have been extinguished and another is in danger.

Yet Snowden is a traitor for exposing GEORGE BUSH'S surveillance state? Strange days, indeed.



1: Domestic terrorism (as defined by the FBI and "patriot act&quot against US citizens for peacefully gathering to petition the government with grievance against the economic destruction wrought by banksters and corporations. SHUT UP AND WATCH TV is the message. March and meet hundreds of militarized police. SHUT UP AND GO HOME. 7400+ Occupiers arrested, two brought to within inches of death by militarized police. Force and threat of force against a civilian population for political purposes. And Obama continues to bail out Wall Street and the corps with our tax dollars to this day. Where is the outrage? Then the Supreme Court makes it illegal to protest on their grounds using words directly out of the 1st Amendment. Then Obama signs HR347 which makes it a Federal crime to protest where Secret Service are working (then he gives himself and George Bush lifetime SS protection...smell the trend?)
2: Shaky; under pressure
4: DHS can steal your personal electronics anywhere along the border and up to 100 miles inland =on a hunch=. So much for warrants, courts, reasonability. Zero right to privacy in the Bush/neocon surveillance state. Where is the outrage?
5: It was made legal recently to allow silence in court to be used against you in certain circumstances. Goodbye 5th Amendment.
6: The right to a speedy trial. Have you heard of Obama's NDAA section 1021 which provides for the indefinite detention of US citizens with neither trial nor representation?

[MjolnirTime]

113. Hair on Fire Walk With Me?

[chimpymustgo]

100. So you Holder, Feinstein, Cheney et al, indicate there's no need for a trial. Frightening.

Did you even READ the letter? Incredible points made.

[MjolnirTime]

112. Snowden has confessed his crimes publicly.

He even said he got the job with the specific intent of committing a crime.

There will be a trial. But Edward has already guaranteed the outcome.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

5. Obama would provide due process if your son hadn't FLED the country

kind of hard to see how Obama would drop the case based on what members of congress not in his branch of government and therefore not under his control had to say about your son.

Most of what people are saying are based on things your son, himself, has gone on record as having done.

[jaysunb]

7. Bruce Fein....wow !

Have we come to this ? Unbelievable.

[Catherina]

10. Actually, I think what the defenders have come to is more disgusting because that's a lawyer

whereas these are the Democrats former enemies but now the bestest friends of some people here who defend an administration that's crawling with BUSHBOTs. WOW! UNBELIEVABLE!

here are some of the people defending this that Democrats should never join cause with but they have and it's sickening.

Michael B. Mukasey
Alberto R. Gonzales
Amb. John D. Negroponte
Stephen J. Hadley
Michael V. Hayden
Michael Chertoff
Porter J. Goss
Diana Villiers Negroponte

http://intelligence.house.gov/sites/intelligence.house.gov/files/documents/LetterSupportNSAPrograms.pdf

And the real winners: George Bush, Dick Cheney, Boehner, and

There's your WOW! UNBELIEVABLE!

[sabrina 1]

46. Denigrating a long time DU hero, Bruce Fein?? Have we come to this, really? Unbelievable.

Do you KNOW anything about Bruce Fein, the man who called for the impeachment of Bush and Cheney?

How sad that people so quickly forget who was on our side during those awful years, and who was not.

Learn something about the man that Democrats were so grateful to for his courage in standing up against the Bush war criminals when few others had the guts to do so.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2007/06/impeach_cheney.html

The vice president has run utterly amok and must be stopped.

By Bruce Fein

Under Dick Cheney, the office of the vice president has been transformed from a tiny acorn into an unprecedented giant oak. In grasping and exercising presidential powers, Cheney has dulled political accountability and concocted theories for evading the law and Constitution that would have embarrassed King George III. .

Thank you Mr. Fein, one of the few who had the courage to demand the impeachment of one of the worst administrations in living memory.

[jaysunb]

99. He made his name calling for the impeachment of Bill Clinton.

Maybe you should do a little research on this little asshole.

[snappyturtle]

107. As hard as it is to accept, Fein called for the impeachment of

President Clinton on the grounds of perjury...that no man, not even the President, is above the law. It isn't like Fein only went after Clinton. He called for the impeachment of Bush and Cheney as well as President Obama, for that matter. Love him or hate him, he is a man of the law and valuable to the republic in upholding the constitution.

He was nationally known long before calling for the impeachment of President Clinton.

[Catherina]

115. Bush Sr actually. Even his wiki points that out. Sorry but the research is needed on your end

He had a very respected name in Constitutional law long before Clinton and before H. W. Bush Sr. became President.

The "little asshole" as you call him first made his name calling for the prosecution of officials under the Reagan administration who were eroding the constitution and he accelerated under the Bush Sr administration. You may not have noticed him until it was a Democrat he went after for the same thing but that's not his fault. He's been consistent in his criticism of the last 4 administrations, ever since the BUSH Sr shadow government (or BFEE as some people here call it) started brazenly bypassing the constitutional checks we had in place.

It all started around the time of the 1987 Congressional Iran-Contra Committee Minority Report, when Cheney and Hyde, Senators back then, lied to the the American public and assured them that :

"The bottom line, however, is that the mistakes of the Iran-contra affair were just that - mistakes in judgment, and nothing more. There was no constitutional crisis, no systematic disrespect for ''the rule of law,'' no grand conspiracy, and no Administration-wide dishonesty or coverup. In fact, the evidence will not support any of the more hysterical conclusions the committees' report tries to reach.

In our view, the Administration did proceed legally in pursuing both its contra policy and the Iran arms initiative. We grant that the diversion does raise some legal questions, as do some technical and relatively insubstantial matters relating to the Arms Export Control Act.

...

We are convinced that the Constitution protects much of what the N.S.C. (National Security Council) was doing -particularly those aspects that had to do with encouraging contributions and sharing information. The President's inherent constitutional powers are only as strong, however, as the President's willingness to defend them. As for the N.S.C. actions Congress could constitutionally have prohibited, it would have been better for the White House to have tackled that danger head on. Some day, Congress's decision to withhold resources may tragically require U.S. citizens to make an even heavier commitment to Central America, perhaps one measured in blood and not dollars. The commitment that might eliminate such an awful future will not be forthcoming unless the public is exposed to and persuaded by a clear, sustained and principled debate on the merits.

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/11/17/world/reports-of-the-iran-contra-committees-excerpts-from-the-minority-view.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

Yeah, Dick Cheney and George H.W. Bush, who raped and ran rough-shod over the constitution but are rehabilitated heroes for this latest episode of the National Security state vs. the people.

As Octafish is constantly putting it, "know your BFEE". Know your Iran-Contra scandal

Bruce Fein, Harvard Law School '72, consistent and principled. There's a reason Carter is always pushed to the side whenever the living Presidents get together.

If we start the history at Clinton, we miss most of the picture- just like they need us to.

[sabrina 1]

120. People of principle, like Fein, are never popular with Party Loyalists on either side. You can get

into a bubble focusing on politics so closely, but in the real world people like Fein are regarded as ethical, consistent and worth listening to, even if there are times when you might have a difference of opinion with them.

As I said above, he was a huge hero to Democrats during the Bush years, no one was doing opposition research on him back to try to denigrate him. I guess for some it IS always about politics. I misunderstood the opposition to Bush by a few, I thought it was based on principles. We need this era to sort things out, to separate those with consistent ethics and principles from those who only about 'winning' at any cost. And in the end, I'm happy to see that while we have our 'loyalists' also, most Democrats are pretty consistent when it comes to issues like this.

[KoKo]

121. There is a definite space there...

Bush II seems to be confused about which way to look... but, then he always seemed confused.

[jaysunb]

130. Thank you

I stand corrected.

[dreamnightwind]

131. And thank you for admitting it

Too rare here, most would continue to defend their discredited point.

From one perspective, Fein is indeed a little right-wing ahole. But with regard to civil liberties, I have been a fan of his for quite awhile. He is a courageous bulldog who absolutely believes in our constitutionally protected rights. He is one of our greatest allies in this sense and has been for a long time. There are some great old interviews, probably on Youtube, of him being interviewed by people like Bill Moyers, where he goes on at length about where this whole road leads if we can't stop it.

edit to add that I hadn't finished reading this thread, I see the links below to the interviews with Fein, yeah DU!

[Catherina]

135. +1000 n/t

[Catherina]

134. Wow Jaysunb, thank you.

I really appreciate your civility and fairness. It's so rare to run into that right now that people like you make it worth the extra time. Thank you again.

[FirstLight]

9. I happen to LIKE the letter...

I have no clue or care about who the lawyer is or what, but the issue at hand is what counts.

The Govt needs to STOP these practices NOW, period. The refusal to even discuss it, and the WH making statements to crush the bill up for vote yesterday, is not encouraging.

why is everyone so interested in hating the messenger...?

[Catherina]

11. The attacks on a lawyer while crowding around Dubya Bush and Cheney's people are too sad for words

They'd be funny if the situation wasn't so tragic.

I think the letter is great.

[chimpymustgo]

101. The letter is potentially historic. I doubt the Pro-surveillance, Pro-Cheney crowd even read it:

-edit-

Civil disobedience is not the first, but the last option. Henry David Thoreau wrote with profound restraint in Civil Disobedience:

“If the injustice is part of the necessary friction of the machine of government, let it go, let it go: perchance it will wear smooth certainly the machine will wear out. If the injustice has a spring, or a pulley, or a rope, or a crank, exclusively for itself, then perhaps you may consider whether the remedy will not be worse than the evil; but if it is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law. Let your life be a counter friction to stop the machine.”


Thoreau’s moral philosophy found expression during the Nuremburg trials in which “following orders” was rejected as a defense. Indeed, military law requires disobedience to clearly illegal orders.

A dark chapter in America’s World War II history would not have been written if the then United States Attorney General had resigned rather than participate in racist concentration camps imprisoning 120,000 Japanese American citizens and resident aliens.

Civil disobedience to the Fugitive Slave Act and Jim Crow laws provoked the end of slavery and the modern civil rights revolution.

We submit that Edward J. Snowden’s disclosures of dragnet surveillance of Americans under § 215 of the Patriot Act, § 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act Amendments, or otherwise were sanctioned by Thoreau’s time-honored moral philosophy and justifications for civil disobedience.

-edit-

[randome]

12. The bill was to shut down something Congress had no clue about.

Does making copies of metadata have a purpose? Well, why the hell doesn't Congress find that out? Possibly because they don't really care.

There is a reason Congress voted it down. They don't want to shut something down they have little to no information about.

They should get more information about it but I doubt they will.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[reusrename]

37. This solution makes too much sense.

They should know what's actually taking place before they act. I am not convinced that this technology isn't useful. It could actually be used to stamp out organized crime.

I know this would mean going after many folks in the 1%, but I think that there are many, many more that would be celebrating.

[Fumesucker]

102. Congress has little to no information by design

Clearly they approved money for something about which they did not wish to know. Recall that Gitmo cannot even be shut down because Congress refuses to appropriate the money.

Something to do with beautiful minds not needing to be sullied by ugly spectacles I suppose.

[randome]

114. You have that right!

I wish it was possible to disband the House of Representatives and only have a Senate. Maybe even expand it to 4 reps from each state. 200 representatives instead of 535 would be an improvement, I think.

The current system allows for politicians to 'lose themselves in the crowd' too easily.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Dragonfli]

19. The lawyer has an interesting history with many chapters one can dislike, but on

this issue he has been consistent regardless of which party is guilty of such abuses.

July 13, 2007
According to Fein, Cheney has:

Asserted presidential power to create military commissions, which combine the functions of judge, jury and prosecutor in the trial of war crimes.

Claimed authority to detain American citizens as enemy combatants indefinitely at Guantanamo Bay on the president’s say-so alone.

Initiated kidnappings, secret detentions and torture in Eastern European prisons of suspected international terrorists.

Championed a presidential power to torture in contravention of federal statutes and treaties.

Engineered the National Security Agency’s warrantless domestic surveillance program targeting American citizens on American soil in contravention of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978.

Orchestrated the invocation of executive privilege to conceal from Congress secret spying programs to gather foreign intelligence, and their legal justifications.

Summoned the privilege to refuse to disclose his consulting of business executives in conjunction with his Energy Task Force.

Retaliated against Ambassador Joseph Wilson and his wife Valerie Plame, through chief of staff Scooter Libby, for questioning the administration’s evidence of weapons of mass destruction as justification for invading Iraq.

He advocated for the Impeachment of Cheney for the above stated reasons

[snappyturtle]

24. Thanks Dragonfli for this info on Cheney/Fein. I remember a Moyers

Journal program...in the summer of 2007 where Fein and John Nichols appeared
together basically talking about the immediate need to rein in the present
adminstration. The over reach of Bush was pointed out in particular and if it
weren't curtailed Fein and Nichols contended no future president would ever
give up what Bush had acheived.

Pretty right on in my book although some here
on DU are demeaning Fein for his political views. It's no wonder there are so many
heated debates when we never can seem to recognize common ground in others.

[grasswire]

35. oh yes I remember that Moyers show.

It was fantastic.

I wonder if it's possible to find it and link it so people who are worried about Fein can see him defend the Constitution.

[snappyturtle]

36. I'll give it a try...no promises though. nt

[snappyturtle]

38. Found it! Transcript and 42 min. video July 2007

Last edited Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:39 PM - Edit history (1)

http://billmoyers.com/content/tough-talk-on-impeachment-with-bruce-fein-john-nichols/


http://vimeo.com/33217611

[Catherina]

44. 5 minute Video Excerpt of your transcript + another video discussing Bush impeachment with Olbermann

This one was good too, with Keith Olbermann on Countdown that same year

Thanks for finding the whole video. I'm going to watch it tonight because he's one of the strongest constitutional minds we have.

[snappyturtle]

48. Thank you so much. I'll re-listen to the Olbermann one for the

sake of the 'good ol' days'!

I, too, think Fein is great on the constitution. He was an excellent choice by
Lon Snowden.

[Catherina]

61. Yes, great choice! They're starting a nonprofit. I'll be saving my pennies to help

The elder Snowden and Fein said they were disgusted by Holder's letter on Friday to Russian officials promising that Snowden would not face the death penalty if he were extradited. They said it reflected a mindset that Snowden was presumed guilty and that a sentence of 30 years or life would be a reasonable punishment.

...

Lon Snowden and Fein are starting a nonprofit group called the Defense of the Constitution Foundation to promote the issues his son has raised.

"In essence, he has passed on the torch of democracy," Lon Snowden said of his son.

He said he wasn't sure there was much he could do to help his son.

"He sacrificed everything and gained nothing," the elder Snowden said. "He's done what he's done. The consequences are unavoidable, and I don't know if I can mitigate those."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/27/nsa-snowden-father-justice-russia

[grasswire]

67. olbermann too?? woo hoo!

Thanks so much, snappy turtle and Catherina.

[Catherina]

83. You're welcome but you know what, this one is even better

It shows exactly where he's coming from in his criticisms of constitutional erosion under the last 4 administrations. I'm only halfway through it but it's very interesting.

Mike German from the ACLU was on the same panel and I'd really like to hear what his talk but I can't find the next part of the video, or a transcript.

[chimpymustgo]

104. Separate post, Catherina? Great speech! People need to comprehend what is/has been going on!

Fein also insists that Wyden, Udall and Pelosi CAN speak out about these "secret surveillance programs", despite their claims that they CAN'T. He says the Supremes have ruled that they can (Gravel read the Pentagon Papers on the floor of the Senate).

This is a great speech. Paraphrases: "People in DC think their loyalty is NOT to the Constitution, but to their JOB (to their party)."

"We are on the verge of despotism."

"We are destroying the republic - just as the Founders warned (going abroad and seeking empire)."

Only WE can change things.

References to William Lloyd Garrison and slavery, Japanese internment - "we have to fight against this. What does this say about US?"

"That we would flout and desecrate the rule of law, the right of due process for EVERYONE. It's the struggle itself that sets us apart from other nations.

We must have the COURAGE to stand up - Founders risked their lives and fortunes for the this country. We must do the same to preserve it."

[Catherina]

117. I had the same reaction when I listened to it

I kept thinking of Thomas Drake, a senior level NSA director who quit after 40 years in the business and warned us that

"The intent from the beginning, before 911, was to gather info on all Americans"

"I call it being on a slippery slope toward a totalitarian state"

Former NSA Senior Official. "slippery slope toward a totalitarian state".

I'm going to listen to that video again because "tip of the iceberg" is right. This goes far beyond Obama, far beyond a few excesses "under that program" as Clapper likes to parse things.

Edward Snowden's statement, about President Obama, during his Q&A made a deep impression on me. Obama has a way out of this mess. I hope sanity prevails and he starts distancing himself from the actions of the political and corporate criminals who started this whole mess a few administrations ago.

Question:

Jacob Appelbaum @ioerror

Do you believe that the treatment of Binney, Drake and others influenced your path? Do you feel the "system works" so to speak? #AskSnowden
10:00 AM - 17 Jun 2013

Answer:

Binney, Drake, Kiriakou, and Manning are all examples of how overly-harsh responses to public-interest whistle-blowing only escalate the scale, scope, and skill involved in future disclosures. Citizens with a conscience are not going to ignore wrong-doing simply because they'll be destroyed for it: the conscience forbids it. Instead, these draconian responses simply build better whistleblowers. If the Obama administration responds with an even harsher hand against me, they can be assured that they'll soon find themselves facing an equally harsh public response.

This disclosure provides Obama an opportunity to appeal for a return to sanity, constitutional policy, and the rule of law rather than men. He still has plenty of time to go down in history as the President who looked into the abyss and stepped back, rather than leaping forward into it. I would advise he personally call for a special committee to review these interception programs, repudiate the dangerous "State Secrets" privilege, and, upon preparing to leave office, begin a tradition for all Presidents forthwith to demonstrate their respect for the law by appointing a special investigator to review the policies of their years in office for any wrongdoing. There can be no faith in government if our highest offices are excused from scrutiny - they should be setting the example of transparency.

[KoKo]

126. "It's time to debate NSA program" Lee Hamilton and Thomas Kean

I posted this a couple of days ago...and some who replied were skeptical that any "9/11 Reinvestigation" would be handled correctly. That it would be stacked with "fixers" and that they were just trying to discredit Obama with making their statement.

I was hopeful that Kean/Hamilton's comments (hi-lighted below) were sincere and that Snowden's revelations gives an opportunity to revist what was left out of the original report which Tom Kean has admitted was quite a lot and that access was denied them by CIA for info they felt was important for the investigation to be proper.

Anyway, it is a step towards Snowden's request and I felt Hamilton and Kean's statement was a push back against those who have been calling Snowden a Traitor or Treasonous. I don't see any reason that they would want to bring Obama down...but, more that they were concerned that the spying had gone too far and were warning him that it's the people and Congresses right to know what is being done.

------------------------


It's time to debate NSA program

Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton Opinion/Politico

The administration says the program is tightly controlled, but unilateral executive branch action and assurances are not sufficient; we need constitutional checks and balances. The extremely low rate of denial of warrant requests and the fact that in the hearings only the government’s side is presented are troubling.

The public would benefit from a better, more detailed understanding of the judiciary process.

The Congress, the courts and the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board, which the 9/11 Commission recommended, each have critically important roles to play. This board is essential to balancing the impact of the government’s security measures in the aftermath of Sept. 11 with our civil liberties. It has taken a decade to get the board up and running. Now that the Senate has confirmed a chairman, it is time for the board to get to work in a transparent manner on this surveillance program.

We are stronger as a nation when we understand what the government is doing. This does not mean sharing sensitive intelligence with the public. A public debate poses challenges when it involves classified information that dribbles out, obfuscated by misinformation. But there is certainly far more we can discuss openly.

President Barack Obama has rightly called for a national discussion, which his administration and Congress should convene. It is unfortunate that this conversation begins only when an unauthorized leaker divulges secrets he has agreed, under penalty of law, to keep. But the issues are now before the public. It is time to trust the American people’s judgment about where to strike the balance between what is, after all, their security and their freedom.

Thomas Kean, former governor of New Jersey, and Lee Hamilton, a former congressman from Indiana, co-chair the Bipartisan Policy Center’s Homeland Security Project. Kean was chairman and Hamilton was vice chairman of the 9/11 Commission.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/07/its-time-to-debate-nsa-programs-94634.html#ixzz2ZyShhpOo

[Catherina]

129. I agree with you and the people who say it wouldn't be handled correctly

We NEED to do this but they're going to try to bury the bodies faster than we can get any answers. And the Gang of Eight Intelligence Committee is going to be obstructing us every step of the way.

The comment that this is about discrediting Obama is too ridiculous to pay any attention to. Any time I see a comment like that, I just that person on ignore and move on. This is about exposing government criminality from the H. W. Bush administration on. If Obama chooses to go down with that ship, that's his choice and his problem.

[Catherina]

45. Thanks Dragonfli. The name didn't even register until I saw that wow unbelievable comment lol

Consistent principled people are hard to find these days but I think there are still enough to save this country.

[Dragonfli]

53. That's precisely why I remembered him

I was impressed at the time that he was bold enough to take a principled stand against his own party in defense of constitutional law. Before then I only remembered him for his impeachment talk regarding Clinton (back then I had him lumped in with the Newt crowd).

He was also connected for a time to the Heritage Foundation so he was no liberal lover when he came out against Bush/Cheney and on many issues I imagine we are diametrically opposed but I do think the Constitution is as important to him as it is to me and on that issue he has been consistent and IMO correct.

[Catherina]

55. Being diametrically opposed on other issues doesn't bother me. This one's a dealbreaker

and a line in the sand. I won't cross it. Not for Obama, not for a party, not for anyone or any issue.

I really appreciate your information. Thank you.

[struggle4progress]

64. Calling for impeachment is Fein's schtick: he called for Clinton's impeachment,

he called for Bush's impeachment, now he's calling for Obama's impeachment

Dude really needs some new ideas

[arely staircase]

68. then I call for his impeachment

just for shits and giggles.

[Dragonfli]

76. I was aware of his past. It would seem he does not do 180s like backflips regarding

Constitutional law with each passing Administration. How dare he be consistent in his support of the constitution across time and Administrations! Doesn't he know the Goddamn piece of paper is only relevant when the other party is guilty of wiping their ass with it?

Not very pragmatic of him, serious people know that principles are only useful as a political tool.

Constitution Scholars should know that the Amendments are merely suggestions attached to a minor and irrelevant old Document that has been rendered meaningless.

Obama knows it, now there is a man capable of real dexterity regarding the relevance of the Amendments!

[Waiting For Everyman]

21. I do too. Fein tweeted it, if any tweeters want to see...

Bruce Fein ?@BruceFeinEsq 9h

#letter to President #Obama re: #Snowden and #NSA @todayshow, @MLauer http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/tvnews/dateline%20nbc/obama.pdf …

https://twitter.com/BruceFeinEsq#


'I'm not a Fein fan, but I like a legal stand taken on principle and that was pretty well done. It came off like a "shot across the bow", interestingly enough. That doesn't seem compatible with the position Snowden's in, and it makes me wonder if Fein is holding a trump card of some kind. I don't think all the secrets are out yet.

[Catherina]

47. Thanks. I didn't even realize he was on twitter. I just followed him n/t

[sabrina 1]

50. The lawyer is a long time DU hero, Bruce Fein, who trashed the Bush administration throughout

those awful years for their crimes and disdain for the law. He had the guts to publicly call for the Impeachment of Bush and never missed a chance to attack Cheney.

Here's a sample of his outspoken opposition to the Bush War Criminals during that time, which is why he was so respected by Democrats.

Impeach Cheney


By Bruce Fein

Under Dick Cheney, the office of the vice president has been transformed from a tiny acorn into an unprecedented giant oak. In grasping and exercising presidential powers, Cheney has dulled political accountability and concocted theories for evading the law and Constitution that would have embarrassed King George III. .

Some people here appear to have short memories, or none at all about who was on our side during those years. I hope this helps. I too like the letter, and would expect nothing less from r. Fein.

[Catherina]

54. He was a DU hero? I guess I shouldn't be surprised. One more under the bus

I respect him for what he's saying now. But now I respect him even more for being consistent and principled.

[ProSense]

72. Fein called for the impeachment of every President except the one he worked for.

A prominent libertarian constitutional lawyer and civil libertarian has drafted an article of impeachment against President Obama over his attack on Libya, throwing down a legal gauntlet that could be picked up by some Congressional Republicans

Bruce Fein, a former Reagan administration official in the Department of Justice and chairman of American Freedom Agenda writes in his 15-page argument of Obama's course that "Barack Hussein Obama has mocked the rule of law, endangered the very existence of the Republic and the liberties of the people, and perpetrated an impeachable high crime and misdemeanor."

Fein is a small-government conservative who worked on the impeachment of President Bill Clinton and also called for the impeachment of President George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney, and his work doesn't represent the Republican Party line. But it comes as some Republicans on the Hill, led by Senator Rand Paul, object vociferously to Obama's decision to strike targets in Libya without Congressional authorization.

"He's been more bold than any other president," said Fein, who said Obama has failed to secure congressional approval for his military action in a much more brazen way than previous administrations.

<...>

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0411/GOP_lawyer_circulates_Obama_impeachment_articles.html

One President missing from the list: Reagan.

One word: Grenada.

His Libya claim is also bullshit.

SENATE RESOLUTION 85--STRONGLY CONDEMNING THE GROSS AND SYSTEMATIC VIOLATIONS OF HUMAN RIGHTS IN LIBYA, INCLUDING VIOLENT ATTACKS ON PROTESTERS DEMANDING DEMOCRATIC REFORMS, AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES -- (Senate - March 01, 2011)

Mr. MENENDEZ (for himself, Mr. KIRK, Mr. LAUTENBERG, Mr. DURBIN, Mrs. GILLIBRAND, Mr. SANDERS, Mr. WHITEHOUSE, Mr. SCHUMER, Mr. CASEY, Mr. WYDEN, and Mr. CARDIN) submitted the following resolution; which was considered and agreed to:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CREC-2011-03-01/pdf/CREC-2011-03-01-pt1-PgS1068-4.pdf#page=1

US Senate defeats bill hitting Obama on Libya

WASHINGTON — The US Senate on Tuesday easily swept aside a symbolic but politically potent measure declaring that President Barack Obama's decision to intervene militarily in Libya violated the US Constitution.

Lawmakers voted 90-10 to table, or kill, a resolution by Republican Senator Rand Paul that attacked Obama using his own words about the US Congress's constitutional prerogative to declare war.

<...>

The vote was the US Senate's second on Libya: On March 1 it unanimously passed a non-binding resolution urging the world impose a no-fly zone over Libya and Moamer Kadhafi's bloody crackdown on protests against his rule.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iHVIXKi6ni4Dylv8U6Ra3NEmEZZw?docId=CNG.bdcc466199b06633a4adfe1136197b8b.b61&hl=en

Roll call: http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=112&session=1&vote=00050

President Obama’s Letter About Efforts in Libya

On March 21, I reported to the Congress that the United States, pursuant to a request from the Arab League and authorization by the United Nations Security Council, had acted 2 days earlier to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe by deploying U.S. forces to protect the people of Libya from the Qaddafi regime. As you know, over these last 2 months, the U.S. role in this operation to enforce U.N. Security Council Resolution 1973 has become more limited, yet remains important. Thus, pursuant to our ongoing consultations, I wish to express my support for the bipartisan resolution drafted by Senators Kerry, McCain, Levin, Feinstein, Graham, and Lieberman, which would confirm that the Congress supports the U.S. mission in Libya and that both branches are united in their commitment to supporting the aspirations of the Libyan people for political reform and self-government.

The initial phase of U.S. military involvement in Libya was conducted under the command of the United States Africa Command. By April 4, however, the United States had transferred responsibility for the military operations in Libya to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and the U.S. involvement has assumed a supporting role in the coalition's efforts. Since April 4, U.S. participation has consisted of: (1) non-kinetic support to the NATO-led operation, including intelligence, logistical support, and search and rescue assistance; (2) aircraft that have assisted in the suppression and destruction of air defenses in support of the no-fly zone; and (3) since April 23, precision strikes by unmanned aerial vehicles against a limited set of clearly defined targets in support of the NATO-led coalition's efforts.

While we are no longer in the lead, U.S. support for the NATO-based coalition remains crucial to assuring the success of international efforts to protect civilians from the actions of the Qaddafi regime. I am grateful for the support you and other Members in Congress have demonstrated for this mission and for our brave service members, as well as your strong condemnation of the Qaddafi regime. Congressional action in support of the mission would underline the U.S. commitment to this remarkable international effort. Such a Resolution is also important in the context of our constitutional framework, as it would demonstrate a unity of purpose among the political branches on this important national security matter. It has always been my view that it is better to take military action, even in limited actions such as this, with Congressional engagement, consultation, and support.

Sincerely,

Barack Obama

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/21/world/africa/21libya-text.html

[sabrina 1]

93. He is absolutely correct about Libya, the brutal human rights violations in Libya were

horrendous, women raped, beaten and abused by the anti-Gadaffi elements, especially egregious was after Gadaffi fell and could no longer defend them, Black Africans given work by Gadaffi were hanged, tortured, robbed on a daily basis, and some disappeared altogether.

The murder of Gadaffi himself was so horrific a war crime that leaders all over Africa felt compelled to condemn it. Bishop Tutu, Mandella among others.

But we weren't in Libya, right??? At least that's what we were told over and over again. Are you telling me now that we WERE there. supporting the 'anti-government, Al Queda, Qatar, Bahrain mercenaries?

We were told the US was not in Libya, if you know something to refute that, then please provide it.

[ProSense]

94. He's wrong, and his claims about Congress are bogus. n/t

[ProSense]

96. Still, are you saying you agreed with Fein about impeachment? n/t

[sabrina 1]

97. I always agreed with Fein's calls for the impeachment of Cheney and Bush, didn't you?

[ProSense]

98. Did you agree with his call for Obama's impeachment?

Bush and Cheney are war criminals who should have been impeached.

[Waiting For Everyman]

13. I would've loved to be a fly on the wall when this was received.

I'll bet that was a moment for the photo album.

This is a no-win situation for Obama. I'd think better of him if he realized that, and changed course before he gets in it any deeper.

[Catherina]

14. It's a total no win, so many people with wisdom have advised him that

Instead we're making total assholes of ourselves on the world stage, bringing down Presidential planes, and trying to bully people/countries.

When an administration goes as far as to tell Human Rights Organizations not to help someone, after breaking international conventions, there's something seriously wrong. This MIC is out of control and Obama needs to realize he's not helping himself, helping us or helping the world.

[Waiting For Everyman]

18. Obama's in the position of going way out on a limb defending Bush's

most reprehensible actions. The more he does it, the more he will be covered in Bush's slime, and have to own it himself..

That, as opposed to cleaning this up, which could earn him a lot of credit from a lot of very divergent viewpoints. This is a BIG mistake. It'll only get worse too.

Eventually it will probably go into other secret stuff. There is a lot going on that is very wrong, and I think Obama will end up wearing all of it, and that won't be good for Dems unless they are actively part of the clean up, as some in Congress are now. Obama should be smarter than this. Where is the practical guy? the cool headed guy? He seems to have lost it on this issue.

[Catherina]

73. This is from The New Republic, a solidly liberal but hawkish magazine

It spells out what you wrote in even stronger terms. I'm flabbergasted that they're being so tone deaf because this is coming from friends and supporters.

When on one side you have Jimmy Carter, principled activists, constitutional lawyers, military officers, supporters begging you to stop and on the other side you have Bush, Cheney, Clapper, Hayden, Chertoff, Noriega, Bachmann, Boehner, egging you on, it's time to stop and think.

Snowden’s leaks have sparked a needed debate about government surveillance. They revealed a massive spying campaign by the National Security Administration (NSA) on Americans and also on foreign individuals and businesses that were not directly implicated in any terrorist threat. The NSA reportedly bugged the European Union mission in Washington D.C. Like Manning, Snowden claimed to be acting in his country—and the world’s—interest. "I understand that I will be made to suffer for my actions," Snowden wrote, but "I will be satisfied if the federation of secret law, unequal pardon and irresistible executive powers that rule the world that I love are revealed even for an instant."

In all these cases of leaks, a government prosecutor could argue that the revelations helped America’s adversaries. Any revelation of American government misconduct is a boost to the country’s adversaries. The publication of the Pentagon Papers or revelations about the My Lai Massacre certainly helped the cause of the North Vietnamese and their allies during the Vietnam War. Reports of CIA attempts to assassinate Cuba’s Fidel Castro certainly strengthened the Cuban Communist’s cause. But to acknowledge that is to recognize how grossly the criterion of “aiding the enemy” is being misused by Obama, Holder, and the military. The question isn’t if a leak unintentionally benefits adversaries (declared or undeclared), but whether, in the circumstance, it has benefited American democracy.

...

But Obama, who opposed the invasion of Iraq and criticized the surveillance state that the war on terror had created, chose to prosecute these individuals, while deciding not to prosecute Bush administration officials who promoted the torture of prisoners. Obama also condoned the brutal treatment of Manning, who during nine months in the Marine brig, before he was convicted of any crime, was kept in solitary confinement, forced to sleep naked with the lights on and without covers, and made to sit upright all day in his cell without being allowed to rest or do pushups. At a press conference in March 2011, Obama said that Manning’s treatment was “appropriate and … meeting our basic standards.” When State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley, who served 26 years in the air force, condemned Manning’s treatment as “ridiculous and counter-productive and stupid,” Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton accepted Crowley’s resignation.

There is nothing, of course, that can done to temper Manning’s prosecution, which is in the military’s hands.The military judge—bearing out Georges Clemenceau’s quip that “military justice is to justice what military music is to music”—ruled that Manning can be charged with “aiding the enemy,” based on the fact that some of the files Manning gave to Wikileaks were found on Osama bin Laden’s computer. The administration is also committed to charging Snowden under the Espionage Act.

But if Obama comes to understand that these men are not traitors or spies, but whistleblowers who acted in what they believed was the country’s best interest—and that what they did was in the country’s best interest—he has a precedent he can follow in dealing with them. He can do for the whistleblowers he has prosecuted what Clinton did for Samuel Loring Morison. Snowden may be out of reach, and if not, should be tried under lesser charges, but a midnight pardon for Manning, who has already suffered during three years of imprisonment, doesn’t undermine the law; it makes an exception for certain individuals whose actions are ultimately excusable because of a higher law. Nothing less from Obama will remove the stain of injustice that has sullied his administration.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/113995/bradley-manning-pardon-obamas-best-option#

[snappyturtle]

108. You're so right. The President endangers his administration with the

taint of Bush. It's exactly what Fein/Nichols warned about in 2007. They
urged the American people to impeach Bush/Cheney to cleanse the over
reach of executive power because no future President would refrain from
using it. Pretty phophetic in my book.

[KoKo]

136. "out on a limb" and the PTB...Wise...are trying to pull him back

before he Crashes it All and More gets Exposed that they don't want exposed....

He has a chance to play "the game" ...but, not like he's been doing. It's causing America to get Uncontrollable...and ALL of THEM...don't want that. None want the 60's all over again... It was TOO UNCOMFORTABLE!

But, I believe the 60's early 70's NEED TO BE REVISITED. It wasn't finished for Justice and Uncovering the ROT!

[msanthrope]

116. Received by whom? Do you really think the President

is going to bother to read this drivel?

[woo me with science]

15. Wow. That is a truly powerful letter.

Last edited Sat Jul 27, 2013, 10:04 AM - Edit history (1)

If there is any Constitutional scholar conscience somewhere deep in Obama, that had to hurt.

I wish I had any hope that it would affect him enough to make a difference.

If Snowden's father had a hand in the actual composition of that letter, it is easy to see where the son got the principles that led him to a sacrifice of this magnitude for our country.

[snappyturtle]

26. +1 I thought the letter had the tone of one constitutional attorney

writing to another.

[Catherina]

51. I'm guessing they wrote it together. Snowden's father has given up on US justice.

The father of the National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden says his son has been so vilified by the Obama administration and members of Congress that he is now better off staying in Russia.

Lon Snowden had been working behind the scenes with lawyers to try to find a way his son could get a fair trial in the US. Edward Snowden has been charged in federal court with violating the Espionage Act by leaking details of NSA surveillance.

But in a telephone interview with the Associated Press, the elder Snowden said he had lost faith in recent weeks that his son would be treated fairly by the justice department. He now thinks his 30-year-old son is better off avoiding the US if possible until an administration that respects the constitution comes into office.

"If it were me, knowing what I know now, and listening to advice of sage people like [Pentagon Papers leaker] Daniel Ellsberg ... I would attempt to find a safe haven," Snowden said.

...

Lon Snowden, a Coast Guard veteran who has worked on national security issues in his career, said he has tremendous faith in the American people and in the constitution. He said that in a more subdued environment his son could get a fair trial, and his actions would be considered in the context of his desire to expose a surveillance program that he and others believe exceeds constitutional bounds.

But he said the justice department's efforts to pressure other countries to turn over Snowden, coupled with silence from President Barack Obama and the attorney-general, Eric Holder, in the face of denunciations from members of Congress who have labelled Snowden a traitor, have eroded his hope for a fair trial.

...

Lon Snowden and Fein are starting a nonprofit group called the Defense of the Constitution Foundation to promote the issues his son has raised.

"In essence, he has passed on the torch of democracy," Lon Snowden said of his son.

...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/27/nsa-snowden-father-justice-russia

[bemildred]

105. Yep. You will see no direct refutation of it.

But you will see a lot of name calling and nit-picking.

[KharmaTrain]

16. Yet Another Reason For Snowden To Come Home...

...Fein will use the judicial system to put the NSA and the Patriot Act on trial...power of subpoena and discovery to validate all the claims Snowden has made and put in public light all those responsible for these programs. It'd be a far greater service to all Americans than hiding in some Cinabon in Moscow...

[snappyturtle]

60. Bruce Fein appealed to the Attorney General

to consider some matters of due process so Edward Snowden could return. The following is in the letter posted in the OP:

On June 27, 2013, Mr. Fein wrote a letter to the Attorney General stating that Edward’s father was substantially convinced that he would return to the United States to confront the charges that have been lodged against him if three cornerstones of due process were guaranteed. The letter was not an ultimatum, but an invitation to discuss fair trial imperatives. The Attorney General has sneered at the overture with studied silence

.

THe Attorney General's silence and snubbing leaves me wondering why the administration didn't take the opportunity given by the Fein letter to advance the conversation or, as Fein points out, are they afraid of trial?

[Catherina]

62. I just read this: "The elder Snowden and Fein said they were disgusted by Holder's letter"

The elder Snowden and Fein said they were disgusted by Holder's letter on Friday to Russian officials promising that Snowden would not face the death penalty if he were extradited. They said it reflected a mindset that Snowden was presumed guilty and that a sentence of 30 years or life would be a reasonable punishment.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/27/nsa-snowden-father-justice-russia

I was disgusted too.

[snappyturtle]

109. +1 I thought the letter to be feeble, pathetic and desperate in light

of Fein's letter of June 27th endeavoring to ensure due process essentially setting up a pathway for Snowden to return. SO NOW, a month later, Holder writes to Russia!!?? Either the matter is of not high priority for Holder or due process is questionable BUT he won't seek the death penalty (why couldn't that have been said a moth earlier in reply to Fein's letter?). Like I said, feeble, pathetic and desperate.

[Catherina]

119. And most undiplomatic. Here is Russia's response to the drool-worthy piffle

Today, 12:52

Snowden may stay at airport transit zone unlimited amount of time - Russian Justice Ministry

Russian laws do not limit the time for which former CIA employee Edward Snowden may stay at the transit zone of Moscow's Sheremetyevo Airport, and he bears no liability for the absence of documents, the Russian Justice Ministry said.

"Russian law does not stipulate the duration of time for which a foreign citizen may stay in the airport's transit zone or liability for staying for a long time in an airport's transit zone without documents," the ministry said in a statement on Saturday in reply to a question as to how long Snowden may stay at the airport.

...

Moscow says security agency FSB is in talks with the FBI over Snowden. But whistleblower will not be extradited to the US, a Kremlin spokesman said, adding he is sure the fugitive NSA contractor will stop harming the US if granted asylum in Russia.

“Russia has never extradited anyone, and will not extradite,” said Vladimir Putin’s spokesman Dmitry Peskov.

...

http://english.ruvr.ru/news/2013_07_27/Snowden-may-stay-at-airport-transit-zone-unlimited-amount-of-time-Russian-Justice-Ministry-0892/

[KharmaTrain]

69. Fein Wasn't Edward Snowden's Lawyer....

...I first read of Fein's interest a couple weeks ago and the articles referenced that he represented his father but hadn't been asked to take on his son. I'm sure that can change....if it hasn't already. Sometimes silence means negotiation...and now Holder's declaration that Snowden won't face the death penalty, I think is part of the process of clearing hurdles for him to return. It may even be possible for young Snowden to get some kind of bail while awaiting his trial. This entire story reeks of a badly written 60s cold war spy novel...stay tuned...

[chimpymustgo]

106. This isn't FICTION. This is REAL - the nightmare of despotism we are LIVING.

Please focus on the ISSUES, not the personalities!

We are a despotic empire. We spy on our people - along with the rest of the world. We invade countries. We force down heads of states' planes. We torture. We hold people without charges or trial.

We have become the country the Founders desperately warned us against. And only WE can fight that.

[KharmaTrain]

127. Snowden Is A Sideshow...

...and in my book has little to offer about the abuses of the NSA and the Patriot act...especially if he sits in the Cinnabon at Moscow Airport. I've long called for an investigation into not only the abuses by the government...a Church-style commission that not only can compel testimony but also push for laws to either curb or (I dream big) eliminate the Patriot act altogether. I look forward to a trial where everything can be put on the table and this story given a far greater platform than it is right now. The ugly truth is our privacy has long been compromised...mostly by corporate interests who do far more damage to Americans through the buying, selling and trading of this information. What the government knows about you is nothing compared to what corporate America does...and that also needs to be investigated and regulated.

Other than conjecture and hyperbole, I want facts. I want to know if the government is "spying" and on whom. PRISM slide shows don't count...I want actual people whose lives have been destroyed by government wiretapping...let's see what exactly is going on. Snowden offers very little to this debate and investigation. His hiding only gives the impression that he is a traitor (polls show him about as popular as George Zimmerman) and without the public behind this the politicians won't take the matter seriously and things will continue to downslide.

Sorry...I don't see this country as a "despotic empire"...and won't join the "everything about the U.S. is bad and evil" crowd. This country is far from perfect and the founders knew that...why the Constitution is a "living document". If there's spying going on...document it, bring it forward and put those who ordered the spying to account for it. The same goes for torture...let the debate really begin and do so in a fair manner. Just as I don't believe all our government say, I don't trust a 29-year old IT geek until he puts up real evidence...rather than attempting to share it with this country's adversaries...

Cheers...

[snappyturtle]

122. I guess I should have written that Fein, hired by Lon Snowden, is

taking up Edward Snowden's interests through the father? I know he's not E. Snowden's attorney but should he end up back in the U.S. I can pretty much figure out who will represent him.

[KoKo]

138. No...he should not "Come Home" it will be "shut down." He should

work with Russia as far as he can and then work for asylum where he can find it...no matter how he finds it.

He is TOAST if he comes back here.

[KharmaTrain]

142. And This Would Stop Spying How??

How can "working with Russia"...a country that is an adversary of the U.S. and spies on its own citizens going to expose abuses by the NSA and of the 4th amendment? And you're sure he's "toast" if he comes back here how? He's a "celebrity"...his case will be high profile and watched closely and he has a big time DC lawyer who will run to TV cameras and onto Faux Noise the second someone looks at his client the wrong way. Sorry...this country isn't the gulag some here like to portray it and his running and hiding will do little to do what a "whistleblower" does...expose corruption. It's hard to do that from the Moscow Airport Cinnabon...or hiding in some South American country. Daniel Elsberg faced an even more repressive government than anything this administration has done and not only won his case but also toasted as a true hero...no reason Snowden can't do the same. The day we give up on our judicial system is the day we become another Russia...

Cheers...

[Progressive dog]

17. Come home Eddie, you can have

Thoreau testify in your defense as a character witness, if he were alive and actually knew you.

[struggle4progress]

20. "Obama! Third Reich! Nuremberg!"

Get a fuckin clue, Mr Fein

[sabrina 1]

59. Don't know Bruce Fein either, do you?

I would be embarrassed to attack such a man after all he did during the Bush years to try to end those awful administrations. He was one of the few with the courage to demand the Impeachment of Bush and Cheney and has been a long time respected 'hero' to Democrats for his principled stand against the Bush War Criminals.

Have we really come to this where even those who we KNOW as ethical, principled people we are going to attack for no reason whatsoever?

Put it this way, that man is so highly respected among Democrats and Indepents who opposed the Bush gang for years, that Snowden having him as part of his team will most definitely enhance his position among intelligent, informed Democrats and others across the political spectrum.

[struggle4progress]

70. Bruce Fein was never a hero to Dems: he orchestrated the demise of the Fairness Doctrine, and he was

a major player in the impeachment of Bill Clinton

That seems to have gone to his head, because he's called for the impeachment of every President since then

Fein lives somewhere in Crazyland

[sabrina 1]

75. Fein was a hero to democrats and still is. And you would be better not to remind us of who is

responsible for deregulation the Media. Let me give you a hint, it was Bill Clinton, something he has stated, too late, that he 'deeply regrets'.

[struggle4progress]

77. The Reagan administration dumped the FCC Fairness Doctrine, with Fein leading the charge

[sabrina 1]

80. Clinton deregulated the media and Wall St, take it up with him, he has spoken about it as one of

his 'mistakes' many times.

[struggle4progress]

86. As long as we're discussing Fein, I'll add we Dems try to avoid Lyndon LaRouche -- but Fein

was reaching out to whackjobs at one of LaRouche's events in January

[sabrina 1]

89. Actually we were talking about Clinton deregulating the Media and Wall St. I know nothing

about LaRouche, so I'll leave that subject to you as you seem to be well informed on the subject.

[struggle4progress]

90. In fact, the subthread begins with my distaste for Fein's effort to compare Obama to the Third Reich

[snappyturtle]

110. Pretty is as pretty does. nt

[treestar]

23. Wouldn't a President who decided who to prosecute and who not to

for the same acts be the tyrant?

The President is often excoriated here for not prosecuting Cheney. While this is likely to be due to proof problems, failing to prosecute someone is said to be evil when it's someone we don't like.

However, when one we do like does something, we demand a complete pass.

It would be like saying the laws against leaking classified documents can be violated by whoever chooses to do so, as long as they make some claim it's for our greater good. Well, who gets to decide that? It should be by our governmental, Constitutional processes. But the Snowdens want they should be able to violate whatever laws they choose because they think it should be OK if it's them. But if it were like me or something, I should be prosecuted. Because I'm not them and they might not like my motives.

[railsback]

28. True dat.

[sabrina 1]

79. Snowden is a war criminal? He is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of

innocent people because he lied this country into war?? Are you seriously comparing War Criminal and Torturer, Dick Cheney to a Whistle Blower?

Unbelievable.

[railsback]

27. Apparently stealing shit and fleeing to other countries,

countries that sure would benefit from learning the inner workings of their main competitor that keeps them at bay, apparently that's 'good'.

Whatever.

I can see Obama wadding this garbage up, sitting on it and letting out the nastiest gas bomb.

[DeSwiss]

30. K&R

Martin Luther King, Jr.: “He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it.”

- Says it all.....

[Bluenorthwest]

88. Leonardo DaVinci said 'He who refuses to punish evil commands it to occur'

Great minds through the ages....

[AllINeedIsCoffee]

32. This Bruce Fein?

[Scurrilous]

49. It's not about Bruce Fein!

[AllINeedIsCoffee]

82. It's not about any of the numerous shady characters involved in this saga,

you know, until some sorry excuse for an artist wants to praise Snowden with a Christ-like portrait of him.

[struggle4progress]

57. Bruce Fein: Articles of Impeachment for Obama

[Scurrilous]

63. Oh, my!

I'm gonna follow hims on Twitter!!1!

[struggle4progress]

65. He's been calling for the impeachment of whoever's President for decades now:

[snappyturtle]

111. I find it disgusting too that Fein insist the Presidents uphold

the U.S. Constitution....that they swore to uphold. Fein's allegiance is to
the constitution not to the office holders of the presidency. Horror!

[gulliver]

34. Yeesh. That's a lot of good stuff they're trying to drag into the shit...

...with Snowden. Why tarnish the concept of civil disobedience by applying it to that self-aggrandizing twerp? He drags down everything he touches.

[arely staircase]

39. he should have told his son not to jump in bed with Russian State security and a hardrive full of

stolen US intel.

[ProSense]

41. Doesn't seem like they're

confident about what the Russians will do. I mean, that letter seems like a plea to the government to drop it so Snowden can come home.

"It seems mystifying to us that you are prosecuting Edward for accomplishing what you have said urgently needed to be done!"

Like I said, Snowden's motives have always been suspect. The fact that he created a circus with his international adventure, sparking international incidents, and injecting himself into the story throughout, shows that his motive was not a debate about the NSA domestic programs. His actions were idiotic and self-serving.

Greenwald basically validate the case against Snowden by declaring that he is in possession of stolen documents that have the potential to harm U.S. national security.

[BeyondGeography]

56. The father is doing whatever he can to get his son back

He was blindsided (and probably horrified) by Greenwald/Assange and the accompanying recklessness they brought to this whole saga by encouraging Snowden to make this about much more than domestic surveillance and become their personal U.S. Gov't animus monkey.

[marions ghost]

66. Doesn't matter

--the domestic surveillance & extensive worldwide surveillance are enmeshed. No need to try to make Ed Snowden a Greenwald puppet. Snowden knew what he was doing.

[BeyondGeography]

71. He's not a victim, nor was he getting good advice

[marions ghost]

74. Well he's new to whistle blowing...

-- he gave us the gift of truth, even if you don't want us to know it.

[BeyondGeography]

78. The only clear outcome I see is his messed up life

It's the only thing that has been clear from the start.

[marions ghost]

81. OK well

some people think whistle blowing is necessary. I guess you don't.

[BeyondGeography]

87. He screwed himself when he disclosed secrets to foreign countries

And, yes, when Snowden gave that South China Morning Post interview, he disclosed secrets to a foreign government:

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1267265/snowden-says-us-targets-included-china-cell-phones

[kelliekat44]

58. Civil disobedience usually means you stick around and pay the consequences.

Running to an enemy country with top secret information is not civil disobedience. Snowden broke the law and will only be a "hero" if and when he returns to face the consequences. Remember, Ali objected to the Viet Nam war and faced the consequences, King went to jail, college students were beaten and arrested and spat upon. Give me a break with the sniveling child of privilege who garnered a position that most with college education and real skills could not get. He is guilty of betraying his country by fleeing as far as i am concerned. And that's my opinion to which i am entitled.

[Bluenorthwest]

84. So what do you say about the thousands who became and become expats to avoid

creepy US anti gay laws and a culture that would oppress them, or about the people who fled the US to leave racist laws behind, so they could practice freely in other countries? Were they just awful people for not facing the consequences of jail or maybe just playing maids for a career instead of being a ruling diva?
Is your theory just for Americans? Or were those who fled the Third Reich also horrible sniveling things? Should have faced those consequences? Einstein, he should have remained and since he did not he betrayed his country? How do you work this out?

[Sirveri]

103. Thoreau himself went to jail for his refusal to pay the poll tax.

So I doubt he'd agree with the usage of his essay to support Snowden.

[Historic NY]

85. Wait it wasn't whistle blower now its civil disobedience....

We are also appalled at your administration’s scorn for due process, the rule of law, fairness, and the presumption of innocence as regards Edward.

Thats great can't have due process when the alleged offender has fled the country. Due process is in a court of law not the court of public opinion or pronouncements.

[struggle4progress]

91. "How dare you call Edward a hacker! You mean mean man, you!"

[msanthrope]

118. This letter is hysterical...it's the ultimate in helicopter parenting.

It went Godwin by the third paragraph and kept going dowhill......

[marions ghost]

123. hysterical? helicoptering?

Actually the letter is very well-crafted in legal terms.

That his family cares enough to try to help him out in a very serious situation is helicoptering? I would think you'd do that for a member of your family no matter what their age.

This is a little more serious than a parent whining to a college professor about their kid's D in chemistry.

[msanthrope]

125. No...as a criminal defense attorney I can tell you that when you are relying on Thoreau

and Nuremberg, it's because your client done fucked up. This letter is a very stupid idea, and Mr. Snowden, Sr. is being il-served by a lawyer with a political agenda. It's hysterical because it is so far from reality.

This is whining about Jr.'s problems on an epic level. Whining. A decent parent would get their kid a lawyer.

[marions ghost]

128. Of course the client has "fucked up" in legal terms

duh. Why else would he need defending.

Your response makes it clear that Ed would not have a good chance in the American legal system.

And calling it "junior's problems" ??? --good gwad. It's a bit more serious than that. Have a little respect for the defendant that you have already convicted.

The father is doing the best he can. Obviously. No parent would abandon their kid in this, would you?

But hey, I'm not gonna argue with a lawyer--it's always about what's legal, never about what's right or ethical. And BTW lawyers OFTEN have political agendas. I'm sure you realize that.

[msanthrope]

137. No...I have no respect for that coward. Nor his father and the

crackpot attorney-Ron Paul advisor who writes silly letters.

[sabrina 1]

140. I've never met a criminal defense attorney, and I've met many through my family and my time studying

for court reporting, who ever spoke that way about a defendent. Most Defense Attorneys, the good ones that is, speak very respectfully of defendents recognizing that they are innocent before trial especially to those in the legal profession.

I know one of this country's top criminal Defense attorneys, lost only one case so far, out of dozens, and one thing he always makes sure to do, he told me, is to humanize the defendant. This letter does this beautifully. I think you should look up some of the country's top defense attorneys to see what works for their clients and what doesn't.

Snowden right now is more popular in this country, and certainly around the world, than either Congress or the WH. I guess the attorneys are doing their job very well.

[msanthrope]

141. When you took steno, did they teach you that it was "defendant?" Since you know a

"top criminal Defense attorneys" [sic] who has had "dozens" of cases, perhaps you can help Snowden secure legal counsel here in America.

You do realize, of course, that Bruce Fein is not Edward Snowden's attorney, and it simply doesn't matter what he writes about him? It doesn't matter what I write, or you write, because none of that will ever affect the court process.

This was an amusing post, Sabrina!

[snappyturtle]

124. Nope. Not a chuckle to be found. nt

[sabrina 1]

139. It is an excellent letter, laying out the case for Whistle Blowers, who have suddenly become very

popular, both here in the US and around the world.

Latest poll here in the US shows an increase even over the last two polls in support of Whistle Blowers. 56% of Americans now say that Snowden is a Whistle Blower not a traitor. When they have the facts, the American people will always make the right decisions. Fortunately they no longer have to rely on the Corporate Media propaganda.

[Egnever]

133. Exactly my thought.

Since when was this clown interested in the rule of law?

I am all for it! Tell him to get his ass back home and submit to the rule of law.

What a stupid letter.

[Mnemosyne]

143. K&R nt