So funny...I said that the Cono Sur would pull ambassadors

[nadinbrzezinski]

Last edited Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:33 AM - Edit history (1)

They have.

Not only that...it is starting to look like the formation of blocks to indeed isolate the US.

Oh and the Free Trade agreements might fall to the wayside and we may see an end to the war on drugs in Latin America.

The Snowden affaire is having very serious consequences, but we are still hitting in the stupid and trying to bully other countries.

Yup...some get it, some don't...but this is a frontal challenge to the Monroe Doctrine.

[Half-Century Man]

1. The ones we were claiming to protect...

...are banding together to save themselves from our protection. Bolivar smiles from afar. Teddy Roosevelt screams anti-trust curses from his place in eternity.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Yup

Exactly

[Cleita]

2. Hope we see an end to the Monroe Doctrine soon.

It's shelf life expired a century ago and it's been nothing but poison since then.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Part of the problem is that kids in the Americas

Know of James Monroe, kids in the US don't.

So we mention the doctrine and why Kerry's language of backyard was tone deaf

[Cleita]

13. Not only that, I heard Latin America referred to as the USA's backyard AGAIN today

on the radio when they were reporting on the recent Unasur meetings.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. The ghost of hurst most be reporting

From Havana

:h:

[struggle4progress]

5. Conasur? .... Do you mean Mercosur?

[tammywammy]

25. I'm sure you're on the "iggy" list with me...

I think she did mean Mercosur.

[Cali_Democrat]

43. LOL

You too?

[struggle4progress]

56. could be. *sigh*

[aquart]

6. "Formation of blocks to indeed isolate the US."

ON WHAT PLANET IS THAT A GOOD THING FOR AMERICANS?

It's like wishing for our own death.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Not a wish, reality intruding

Reality is that this affair has hit a hornets nest. It is fully self inflicted

Nowhere, by the by, did I say it's good? No

In fact, for us residents not only a heck of a wake up call, but very painful.

But it is...what it is.

[Half-Century Man]

8. No it's a horrible tragedy. One done to us by our leaders.

Let me re-phrase that, done to us by our corporations and their paid-for lawmakers in many American governments (North and South America).
Is it unusual for people with boot marks on their necks to have anger issues?

[aquart]

11. We have a democracy, but whole areas of this nation run no primaries.

This wasn't done to us by our elected leaders. It was done by US. Time to take responsibility for ignoring small, local, insignificant elections. No election is insignificant. Time to take responsibility for allowing the growth of FOX by weakening monopoly regulation and enforcement. Everytime they held up a shiny object, we stared until we went blind.

When Nixon was impeached, the right took a hard look at everything that contributed to his downfall and worked to make sure it could never happen again.

AND WE SAT BACK AND LET THEM.

"Our leaders" my ass. What a cop out.

[Cleita]

16. This is true, many incumbents run virtually unopposed by either their own party or the

opposition. My former Congressman, Kevin McCarthy, is one of them. I don't think he would be so influential in Congress if he ever had a challenger in the elections. He basically waltzed into that seat unopposed after Rep. Bill Thomas retired and has remained there being opposed only once by a very weak candidate.

[Half-Century Man]

21. No, I was talking about how the American sugar, coffee, rubber, and transportation industries

lobbied our country's government and outright bribed South and Central American governments. Or replaced uncooperative governments with CIA help.

What happened in our country was our fault. What happened in other countries in the western hemisphere sometimes was caused by big business aided by our intelligence industry. I mean intelligence community.

[Cleita]

55. +100

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. What ails the US can't be fixed by elections

Not anymore, especially not in a declining empire.

None, who understand this, is looking forwards to it...but LatAm, our leaders did it...they screwed the pooch...royally. And we will pay for it.

[Aerows]

79. "Is it unusual for people with boot marks on their necks to have anger issues?"

Profound, and very true.

[Spider Jerusalem]

80. Fun fact: America is not the world

it's probably a good thing for Latin America, considering the effects of American foreign policy in the region--support of right-wing governments, the effects of the US war on drugs, and the negotiation of free trade agreements that are good for the US (or at least good for American corporations) but not so good for the people of Latin America--especially considering that they largely amount to expropriation of resources by American companies on highly favourable terms.

[HooptieWagon]

9. And Latin America is going to align itself with Russia and China.

Nice job, Obama.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. It was a matter of time

This scandal though is probably the trigger. Forcing a presidential plane down is like a really bad idea.

[HooptieWagon]

14. I think Obama could have locked up LA as allies/partners.

They're our freakin' neighbors... I think if a new tone had been taken, past misdeeds would have been forgotten. But forcing down a head of state's plane was the final straw. China and Russia will treat then with respect, as equals. US will always treat them as red-headed step-children. Only allies we'll find now are RW leaders who cling to power with US military aid. Don't make friends pointing guns at them. On the bright side...looks like fewer trade agreements that fuck the 99% of both countries.

[Egalitarian Thug]

68. Of course he could have, but that doesn't fit his master's plans at all.

The people that matter decided decades ago that the U.S. and Europe are to be the base from which they will rule. The east, with their more than half the global population and culturally pre-conditioned to submit to the (insert relevant authority here), will be the workers providing what labor is required, and the rest of the world really doesn't matter very much at all.

[HooptieWagon]

69. I don't think its a model that can sustain itself.

As the US's middle class is driven closer to poverty, consumer demand will drop. That means less demand for Chinese goods. Chinese aren't paid enough to pick up the loss of demand. Plus, China's growing pollution problems are going to require a huge investment to clean up, plus health costs...health costs being either treatment, or economic loss of labor and productivity. Also, there is growing labor unrest in China...can you imagine a Chinese equivilent of the Arab spring, except involving BILLIONS of people? This is why corporations are grabbing all they can now...it won't continue forever.

[aquart]

12. Maybe you didn't notice the oil contracts Venezuela wrote to send oil to China during BushCo.

While Bush was imagining himself King of the Caspian Basin, we tossed South America into the trash.

And Obama isn't responsible for this mess. It's part of his job to make sure South America doesn't surprise us. Your pal Snowden is responsible. Go worship at his dainty feet.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. A little more fact less information, and character assassination

Next you will tell me it was Snowden himself who issued a NATO wide alert.

[aquart]

26. No. But state secrecy is common to all nations.

Spying is common to all nations. Except maybe Somalia which seems to be the evolving model government for so many idealists.

Keeping public pressure on DC is fine by me. Never turn your back on your government.

But applauding our public humiliation and loss of status? Applauding a situation that could become DANGEROUS to us?

That's nauseating.

So. Would Russia or China give nuclear weapons to South America?

[Half-Century Man]

30. Us pointing out the house is on fire is fanning the flames?

I am not in favor of the conflagration, I'm saying storing gasoline in the living room was a bad choice.

[aquart]

85. Wrong analogy.

Although humiliation is a burning sensation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. And your point? So you think our government should trash the Fourth?

By the way forcing the equivalent of AF 1 was a bullheaded move. And a violation of the Vienna Convention protecting diplomats, including ours. You keep telling yourself that Edward Snowden is causing this.

By the way...you agree to spying of the population, it's not about terrorists under the bed...it's about a future occupy movement, which in theory is protected. But the first is nice theory too.

I tell ya what...let's stop the pretense and cancel the Constitution...because you know what? that is what you are defending

So you ok with mass surveillance of American citizens and violation of the fourth, cause well all do it? Nationalism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.

[HooptieWagon]

20. And forcing down a head of state's plane will win their hearts and minds?

I've travelled a lot in South America. Treat them as equals, and they're your friends for life. Act the ugly American, and they hate our ass. Obama acted the ugly American.

[aquart]

29. Now that was A+ stupid. No quarrel there.

But then I would be thrilled for Snowden to find asylum and not have a trial here. We've made awful decisions about how to deal with him.

The amount of joy it's giving Putin the Journalist Slayer is just painful.

[Half-Century Man]

27. Obama doesn't run any of South or Central America, the problem is he forgot that.

Snowden didn't do this, He just pointed out it was happening.

[aquart]

17. Of course they'll align with Russia and China. They're farther away.

Do you think this alliance is a good idea for the United States? Do you think it would be in our interest to know as much about these burgeoning friendships as we can?

How do you think we should go about it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Well, we can start by not thinking of Latin America as our back yard

More like equals, less like servants.

[aquart]

32. So, it's their private business and we should keep out of it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Ah yes, neo colonial thought right there

They are independent nations, believe it or not...they even have helped us when we have needed te help. I feel sorry you can't see them as equals.

[aquart]

37. More than you, I think.

I recognize them as competitors.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. No, you see them as colonies...

Sorry...we screwed the pooch. The age of TR and the American empire is over...and we did that...blame Reagan for starters.

I know this reality bothers you...ce la vie, Americans will adapt.

[dtom67]

46. My interest...

concerns the use of the phrase "our interests". Most often, it really means corporate interests, for which I give not a care. If sovereignty stealing trade agreements fall through, then Mr Snowdon has done this country yet another service.

Let the Corporations pay for their own espionage; why should the American tax payer subsidize such activity? Especially when our leaders tell us we have no money for Social Security, National Health care and other social programs. Mussolini said that Fascism should actually be called " Corporatism" because it involves the merger of Government and Business. The whole notion that " American interests " are involved in the spying on other countries is crap. Let the Wealthy fend for themselves.

That is how we should go about it: Let those that benefit from the spying do it themselves. Corporations do not pay their share of taxes and yet we are expected to foot the Bill for the gathering of intel that they can used to expand their profits?
Such subsidies are a basic violation of "Free Trade". Of course, trade agreements have little to do with free trade and everything to do with the usurpation of Sovereignty from the nations involved to corporate " interest ".....

[Cleita]

19. Actually that's been happening since Nixon. The Soviets started moving in where they

could after Castro's revolution in Cuba and now the Chinese are coming.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Earlier, but yes

[HooptieWagon]

28. Soviet influenced lessened when USSR collapsed.

US could have stepped in and combined trade agreements with economic development, that would have tied together North and South America as equal partners just like North America and Europe. Instead, we sign agreements that benefit multinational corporations, and have to prop up unpopular and corrupt regimes. And now Obama has pulled the plug on the last lifeboat. We've lost LA for good now.

[Cleita]

34. It's always been about the multinational corporations exploiting So. American countries

with our blessings. I'm happy to see it over.

[aquart]

36. Over? Riiiight. Over.

Proof?

[Cleita]

38. Start with anything Noam Chomsky has written about South America.

Better head for the library.

[aquart]

41. Nuh nuh. I didn't ask him for proof.

But I would love some links showing that the multinationals which have only increased their iron grip on the United States, have loosed their hold on the southern Americas.

Perhaps we could learn how to do it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Hope your Spanish is good

Start here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mundo/america_latina/2010/07/100727_0504_ecuador_entra_vigencia_reforma_petrolera_lf.shtml

[Cleita]

47. That would be a whole college quarter in Latin American studies you ask me to do in one post.

Get a book and start reading if you are really interested. I suggested you start with Noam who has a good grasp of the situation and history.

[HooptieWagon]

49. The countries signing trade agreements with China....

...have been praising China for treating them as equal partners. As to how the US treats them...the silence is deafening.

[aquart]

52. They may have more in common with China than the US.

Large amounts of lowlowlow-wage workers for starters.

[HooptieWagon]

57. You might be surprised.

There is still much poverty, but several South American countries have a growing middle class. Its an economy thats going to have serious future growth.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Absolutely.

Mexico is getting behind, due to nafta. It destroyed both middle classes

[aquart]

60. Growing more than ours.

Not the best news, really.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. It could be a non zero sum game

But rightfully so they do not trust us.

[HooptieWagon]

63. Good friend of mine married an Argentine woman.

He started a business down there erecting cell towers. Some of his money, some from Argentines. He cant build them fast enough. Pays good wages...hard work though. All the companies together building cell towers can't keep up with demand. I imagine same for other infrastructure projects...roads, broadband, ports, etc.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. And why s that?

Oh yes, American interests...

You really need to pick up a book or two. They don't byte, I promise...

[aquart]

35. Obama was there when the USSR collapsed?

Equal partners. So. You want us to share world power with Latin America. You want LA's opinion to weight equally with ours whenever we choose to do...anything.

That is what you said, isn't it? Equal partners?

[Cleita]

39. I'll answer that...yes.

Because the dragon that is LA is stirring and it would be better to be partners than enemies.

[aquart]

44. So you would hand our sovereignty to other countries?

What about our lives would you like Brazil to decide? Argentina? Ecuador?

Do we share atomic weapons? How can we be equal if one of us has such superior military strength?

What about our currencies? Do we have to pay our workers as little as they pay theirs?

When you say equal, wtf are you actually talking about?

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. LMAO...read into te TPP, we are.

If this was not so tragic, it would be high comedy.

[Cleita]

50. As a start, we need to start treating them as partners and equals. We need to stop interfering in

their choice of leaders and type of government and mainly we need to get our parasitic corporations out of their economies. But your questions only show your ignorance of how things work there, about military, about wages. You know the biggest union busters down there usually originate in our corporations. If you left the unions alone the wages would go up. But I don't think Exxon and the other companies working down there would like it.

[HooptieWagon]

53. Look at Japan.

They were in utter ruin after the war. We helped them rebuild, not to be a colony to be exploited, but as equal trading partners. Similar investment could have neen made in LA. Instead, the Chinese are doing it. China's gain, our loss.

[Half-Century Man]

65. Question, How does recognizing their sovereignty surrender ours?

[HooptieWagon]

67. It was a strawman.

If anything, treating them as equals strengthens the relationship.
Its like a marriage.

[Spider Jerusalem]

81. How does this differ from other countries ceding their sovereignty to the US?

Or as good as, if not willingly. See for instance the assassinations of Rafael Trujillo and Patrice Lumumba. The coup against Mossadegh in Iran, the failed coup against Chavez in Venezuela, and on and on. The USA's history of intervention and meddling in the domestic affairs of sovereign states is quite long, and very ugly. Are you suggesting that might makes right, and the US should have carte blance to enforce its will on other countries by virtue of superior strength? Charming.

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. The subtext of the fears is amazing

Imagine those brown (catholic) people getting nukes from the yellow hordes....

It has to be unconscious...at least I hope it is.

You live abroad. You know the anger is real. I read foreign press, I am not coddled, by choice.

Most Americans have no idea there was a CIA driven coup in Guatemala in 1956... For example...now ask them about the trayvon Martin trial. Even NPR, which used to cover foreign news a tad is stuck on trayvon...but we have a free press...SNORT!!!

And this affair, they are doing their level best not to cover more than the WH demands. If it wasn't so tragic it almost would be funny. Almost....

[iemitsu]

42. What is wrong with the idea of treating other nations

and peoples as equals on this earth?
We have not done such a good job running the place that we can do without some help.

[aquart]

51. I would LOVE to see our minimum wage in Latin America.

And our worker protections. And our OSHA regulations.

Or would that be lording it over them?

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. You will have to get the American Fruit company out

Foe example, and the Carlyle group.

Wait, the countries that have kicked them, like I don't know Ecuador, have seen in increase in salaries and environmental protections. Oh the mess Exxon left though. And Carlyle wanted to privatize access to water.

Tell you what, having the marine expeditionary force chasing Sandino to protect the interests of the American Fruit company did not endear us to them...neither did the funding of the Iran Contras or the mining of a port.

You really are out of your depth here...nothing personal, but a basic history, preferably in translation, would be best.

To put it simply, they are not our colonies, nor our backyard and the us is an empire in decline. We'd better develop some humility.

[iemitsu]

71. You are right Nadin, any lack of economic or soicial development in

post-colonial Latin America can be laid at our doorstep.
I have a brother, who lives in Ecuador and has for the last 17 years. I communicate with him daily and have watched a somewhat conservative character become a firm supporter of progressive and left wing politics. His wife, an Ecuadorian, is much more conservative than he so she is not the influence that sponsored this attitudinal change, it was witnessing the positive changes in his community, under Correa, that changed his mind about how to best solve economic and social problems.
I have also been teaching Latin American history for the last 20 years. It is remarkable what the average US citizen doesn't know about those south of our border.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. The lack of knowledge is by design

Am afraid.

[iemitsu]

84. Well, yes, it is by design.

Those in charge have no interest in exposing us to information, that might make us question our government's interactions with Latin America.
But it is also due to a lack of interest, on the part of most US citizens, to know anything they don't think they "need" to know. And Latin America, for most is a corrupt, retrograde, back water with nothing to offer us.
They are wrong but they don't know it and it plays right into the hands of the power elites.

[reusrename]

62. You've got it all wrong.

Those who actually understand the events assure me that it's all about pies:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023239195

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. That whole thread is not just funny

But American Exceptionalism and empire on steroids....

Thanks for the good laugh.

Snort!!!

[SidDithers]

66. WTF is conasur?...

Sid

[reusrename]

70. Mercosur

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercosur

[bemildred]

82. Southern Cone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Cone

[bike man]

72. Not knowing what "conasur" is, I googled it with no success other than a couple of

your posts. There are many results for 'Mercosur', here's a wiki link.


Mercado Común del Sur

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_Mercosur

[malaise]

74. The treatment of the Bolivian President may be the last straw

Good for the entire hemisphere - we are not US colonies.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. My tv broke...so been listening, instead of reading, to BBC

Americans are coddled.

Mexico will have to chose sides...the us, or her Latin brothers and sisters.

Given how the us treats Mexico...I wish Mexico gave the 90 day notice to pull out of nafta. It's destroyed it's economy quite honestly.

[malaise]

77. Americans should watch Canadian news at least once a day

It's a breath of fresh air - they cover the globe on a range of issues.

I feel sorry for the poor Mexicans - the 1% want to turn the border into a war zone for profit.
nafta destroyed most of our economies. Add to that the American drug laws which facilitated most of the narco-states in our hemisphere.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. Yup, but Mexico is sharing that border

Short term it would be an economic shock...but the US wants to militarize the border...the Mexican military should help...and have a couple divisions stationed there. Can you imagine the reaction? this should be permanent. And pull out of nafta. And require visas from Americans (which personally will suck) and quite frankly trade with neighbors to the south, and stop selling oil to the US.

Mexico needs to rebuild her ravaged economy. LatAm should start treating the US...after this, as a rogue state. And yes, it will suck.

[aquart]

86. Wow.

I'm pretty sure I don't want my country to be punished for being bad while our former allies agree to work against us in every possible way.

That must make me a scoundrel.

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. Given the history of the last 200 years

And how we treat them...it's called blowback. Americans should be familiar with it, but Americans have the attention of gnats when it comes to history.

Oh, and for real we are militaries ing the border. Care to tell me what would be our reaction of Mexico did that?

[Codeine]

76. Yawn. More predictions by the Windmill Prophet. nt