What The Fuck... Have WE... Done To America ???

[WillyT]

After the New York Times had been enjoined from publishing the Pentagon Papers — on June 15, 1971, the first prior restraint on a newspaper in U.S. history — and I had given another copy to The Post (which would also be enjoined), I went underground with my wife, Patricia, for 13 days. My purpose (quite like Snowden’s in flying to Hong Kong) was to elude surveillance while I was arranging — with the crucial help of a number of others, still unknown to the FBI — to distribute the Pentagon Papers sequentially to 17 other newspapers, in the face of two more injunctions. The last three days of that period was in defiance of an arrest order: I was, like Snowden now, a “fugitive from justice.”

Yet when I surrendered to arrest in Boston, having given out my last copies of the papers the night before, I was released on personal recognizance bond the same day. Later, when my charges were increased from the original three counts to 12, carrying a possible 115-year sentence, my bond was increased to $50,000. But for the whole two years I was under indictment, I was free to speak to the media and at rallies and public lectures. I was, after all, part of a movement against an ongoing war. Helping to end that war was my preeminent concern. I couldn’t have done that abroad, and leaving the country never entered my mind.

There is no chance that experience could be reproduced today, let alone that a trial could be terminated by the revelation of White House actions against a defendant that were clearly criminal in Richard Nixon’s era — and figured in his resignation in the face of impeachment — but are today all regarded as legal (including an attempt to “incapacitate me totally”).

I hope Snowden’s revelations will spark a movement to rescue our democracy, but he could not be part of that movement had he stayed here. There is zero chance that he would be allowed out on bail if he returned now and close to no chance that, had he not left the country, he would have been granted bail. Instead, he would be in a prison cell like Bradley Manning, incommunicado.

Link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/daniel-ellsberg-nsa-leaker-snowden-made-the-right-call/2013/07/07/0b46d96c-e5b7-11e2-aef3-339619eab080_story.html

[L0oniX]

1. I am thankful for any decent discussions that his actions have brought out...

and I don't mean all the bunny stomping by the distractors.

[WillyT]

2. Me Too !!!

[Enthusiast]

17. Me three!!!

Not that it is the issue at hand, but there are still millions of Americans that do not realize the full scope of the revelations contained in the Pentagon Papers.

This is supposedly a free country with full rights for the citizens. The government is not supposed to be cloaked in secrecy and engaging in massive surveillance of the citizens. No one should feel threatened for speaking out, especially journalists.

[malaise]

37. Me three

Rec

[bananas]

44. Me five. If Snowden were held incommunicado, this would have all been swept under the rug. nt

[East Coast Pirate]

65. Me six.

Yep, and that's what the people trashing him would have preferred.

[Trajan]

3. NOT a big fan of the all encompassing term 'we'

I did nothing of the sort ...

[WillyT]

4. "We The People..."

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[note 1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preamble_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Everything done by this country is done by WE... does not matter if you agree or not.

And THAT... is our current problem.

[Trajan]

5. Nonsense simplification ...

Typical DU BS .... We are not a monolithic state with one mind .... There are dissenters .... As long as ONE person dissents, then 'we' goes out the window ....

[WillyT]

6. Our Founders Were The Ultimate Dissenters...

G'Night.

First work alarm 3:32am.

[reusrename]

22. Sure, you can deny your own responsibility here, but you do that by denying your citizenship.

Are you an American or not?

[Trajan]

40. I can assure you ...

You do not make the rules ... All you do is trap out ridiculous comments ...

[reusrename]

41. You are correct.

The rules were here long before I was born.

[sabrina 1]

23. One person is not the issue. OUR rights, all of our rights, are the issue. We the People's

rights, and even though there are some who care nothing about those rights, they don't get to throw everyone else's away.

Democrats WERE of 'one mind' when Bush was doing all of this. What happened?

[RC]

58. Blind Loyalty and Hero Worship

Democrats WERE of 'one mind' when Bush was doing all of this. What happened?

Morals and principals just get in the way. All hail our leader, for it is legal now!

[zeemike]

9. A point lost on some people

But government has always been we by definition...if it is not then we don't have a government but anarchy.

[truedelphi]

7. Yes, what the f___ have we done. The major war that is being planned is against us the people.

Shut up and eat that delicious vomitoxin-contaminated food, and give your health and property to Monsanto.

Drink the water that used to be clean and nutritious, and appreciate fully the miracle that right now, that water can be lit on fire, thanks to the fracking that the natural gas industry has demanded.

Vote for one of two people who are chosen from a very very short list of Big Industry-approved candidates.
[h2][font color=red]
We are all free to do just as they tell us to do![/h2][/font color=red]

[limpyhobbler]

8. More like what did we neglect to do.

We got dumb or something and didn't stay vigilant in defense of liberty.

Too much TV could be dumbing us down.

Either that or the high fructose corn syrup, I'm not sure.

[Enthusiast]

19. Turtle Man is highly educational.

[mrdmk]

57. Or, " 'xcuse me whiles I shoout this here gator at the end of mine roupe"

n/t

[reusrename]

24. That's not what I see happening.

We are viciously being thwarted in our attempts to organize resistance to our descent into fascism.

The most advance scientific principles are being deployed against us on a daily basis.

People are only now beginning to become aware of the power of the new survielance state, thanks mostly to Snowden and Greenwald.

Apples and oranges.

The spying is seen by most as a 4th Amendment issue, being secure in our papers and such, but much more importantly it is a 1st Amendment issue impacting directly on our ability to freely associate and to peaceably assemble.

[JEB]

10. Not much of Democracy any more.

Corporate funded candidates on corporate owned media. Political and corporate elites writing laws to cover their allow their evil deeds. I'd say all WE have is the subtle resistance of non cooperation.

[yonder]

16. amen, with emphasis on corporate. nt

[hifiguy]

27. "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism

because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini

By that definition, and Mussolini would be one to know, the US is unquestionably a fascist state.

[JEB]

50. Check here on the State of the Union

Insight from Linh Dinh. As the corporate elites take more and more money from the economy....

http://linhdinhphotos.blogspot.com/

[Kurovski]

11. K&R. (nt)

[AnotherMcIntosh]

12. At a minimum, we repeatedly elected politicians who were insincere in their commitment to democracy.

[NuclearDem]

14. Understatement of the Year

[NuclearDem]

13. But I heard Snowden's a coward who just wants to sell our secrets to Russia and China

If he really was brave why not be disappeared--I mean, given a fair, public trial back in the good ol' USA?

[Enthusiast]

20. One thing we can say with the utmost certainty.

We should encourage more Snowdens to come forward. The survival of the nation is at stake.

[midnight]

15. K&R.... Time to get serious about who counts the vote...

[Douglas Carpenter]

18. knr

[DeSwiss]

21. ''What The Fuck... Have WE... Done To America ???''

- We let the rats take the bowl.....

K&R

[hifiguy]

25. Somewhere, a few years down the road,

Manning will be disappeared. Probably the day after the next Repuke president is sworn in. The same thing will happen to Snowden.

[reusrename]

26. A shame everyone has forgotten Sibel Edmonds.

Even if Snowden were not jailed he would certainly be gagged.

[graham4anything]

28. Sibel Edmonds is alive and well now a talking head and never silent.

Shows America is free after Bush left, and nobody stopped Sibel from talking whatsoever.
I just saw someone posted a piece she wrote just the other day on this international political board, where one corner of the USA
can read it, instantly, just like the other corner.

BTW, I still marvel that the most important part of the Ellsberg story has never once been mentioned on the board here, and it is so striking and important, but then well...(never mind, will come back to this subject in the future.
I do want to see if it ever gets posted. It singlehandedly is the main reason Ellsberg was successful. And why the two stories really
have zero to do with each other. I am surprised Ellsberg himelf hasn't mentioned it.)

note-this is my one and only comment in this thread.

[reusrename]

29. She is described as the most gagged person in US history.

http://letsibeledmondsspeak.blogspot.com/

Yes, after a dozen years the documents she wanted to talk about have now been released to the public.

I suppose you are saying that we really shouldn't allow Snowden to talk about any of this stuff for the next 12 years or so, and by then everything will be just fine.

Is that your point?

[graham4anything]

30. She has told her story all over. Not during Bush, but during this admin. It prooves no rights have

been taken by this administration.

and being that two wars are almost ended, and Gitmo about to be closed, it seems like Sibel achieved what she wanted
to, being that she was all about Iraq and we are just about gone from there.

The bush days are behind us and the best way to not have any bad part of Bush come back, is to make sure not
to do anything to help Jeb be the next President.

out of this thread.
My comments have nothing to do with Ed. Being that the world has known everything since the Bush days and nothing from the Bush days apply now so there have been no revelations.

I personally think Sibel is far different from Ed, with nothing in common.

and as every single word Ed says is being heard I don't see how one can say he isn't talking. Is there one word that hasn't been heard?

but until there is a new SCOTUS, and the 4 to 5 change to 5 to 4, there is no way Scalia and Alito and the 3, are going to vote
FISA away, so having it done now will do nothing but keep it forever as the Scalia court if they accept it at all, will just ratify it as legal, and once that is done (which they already did anyhow in Smith vs. Maryland 1979) it will never be overturned.

[reusrename]

32. I thought you said you weren't going to respond.

Instead, you spew some disgusting drivel about Sibel Edmonds getting exactly what she wanted in the end.

I guess you like to pretend to yourself that a ten-year war with millions harmed and displaced is exactly the same thing as not going to war.

That's a very disgusting thing to say. You must view the victims as some kind of subhumans or something.

I actually agree with you about the Roberts' court. Scalia should be impeached.

[graham4anything]

33. Smith vs. Maryland 1979 legally decided this 4th amendment issue.

Eisenhower started Vietnam. Blame Ike. Eisenhower also gave the world NIXON. LBJ would have ended the war 6 years earlier
and losing in 1967-8 was not possible (witness the race to the moon).

There is a major part of the Ellsberg situation that I have not seen mentioned once.
It is very relevant to this story. But that is for another day, not in this thread.


Smith vs. Maryland 1979 decided the whole 4th amendment issue
on a different thread we can discuss Smith vs. Maryland and why it is this issue.

and the proper person to protest to is Representative republican Peter King who is the #1 go to person in the house for anything
foreign. He could de-fund everything instantly if he chose to. Everyone here knows King won't do anything like that.

But President Obama has basically ended Iraq. As such the war is almost winding down, and as promised by the President from day one.

Whereas Vietnam, SPECIFICALLY because of Nixon lasted 6 extra years before the entire war ended.
Nixon in effect caused tens of thousands of deaths.

[reusrename]

35. That 1979 case was about pen registers.

PRISM did not even exist.

Obviously you know stuff and you want to share something, but penny hasn't dropped for me.

As far as the 4th Amendment issue goes, it seems to be nothing new, I agree. It's always meant balancing privacy with the state's necessity to perform certain duties, along with providing the proper oversight to ensure all the laws and policies are faithfully followed. It's been that way from the beginning of the country.

The 1st Amendment concerns, however, are completely new. The situation we find ourselves in reminds me of the days when the ABM missile treaty was being negotiated and the new concept of mutually assured destruction was being discussed.

Once again technology has brought us to a new horizon and we need to get a grip on what we are really facing.

Our ability to organize political resistance is what is really at stake here. 1st Amendment stuff.

Apples and oranges.

I would be interested in your take on Ellsberg.

[think]

31. still gagged and only speaks what she is allowed to speak of.....

[xchrom]

34. du rec.

[Progressive dog]

36. It has to actually be done before we've done it nt

[leeroysphitz]

38. The 1% learned the lessons of the Viet Nam era very well. n/t

[grantcart]

39. The comparisons between Ellsberg and Snowden are unfortunate.

And yes it is ironic (and a little sad) that Ellsberg is making them himself.

Now this does not mean that there isn't an argument for Snowden, simply that it doesn't really compare.

Here is why:

1) Ellsberg never leaked anything that could be of any use to the North Vietnamese.

Ellsberg wasn't some analyst in a room but rather one of the intellectual thinkers who helped build the justification of the War in Vietnam. He persuaded MacNamara that it was time to review the policy and the Pentagon Papers is a record of how policy was made.

For example disclosing the facts about the lies in the Gulf of Tonkin incident didn't inform the North Vietnamese of anything that they didn't already know.

2) The information was not hidden from the North Vietnamese, policy makers or others, only the American public.

3) Ellsberg didn't directly leak the material for publication

He in fact was working closely with elected decision makers to get the information out. In fact the copies were made at Senator Kennedy's office. For about a year Ellsberg circulated copies of the documents to Senators including Fulbright and McGovern. He passed them to other think tanks.

He gave one to Neil Sheehan, a reporter of the NYT, not for publication but under an agreement of confidentiality which Sheehan apparently broke.

4) There was widespread agreement that the material did not directly damage US military actions or intelligence but simply informed the American public and it was entered into the Congressional Record.

It is remembered by many that Ellsberg was found innocent but this also was not the case. His case was dismissed for glaring prosecutorial misconduct.

I give Snowden credit for one thing: not hiding his actions.

Ellsberg is a brilliant but complicated figure. He wasn't just a guy sitting in a cubicle but was deeply involved in the whole affair. He was on duty the night of the Tonkin Gulf Incident and he reported directly to MacNamara on it.

His change of heart came when he attended a peace protest and witnessed a brave young man announcing he was going to jail rather than fight in Vietnam. That was the single most effective peace demonstration in history.

Ellsberg is a complicated and brilliant fellow and deserves to be admired. He had the Pentagon Papers and was distributing them for 2 years trying to get an authorized release on the Senate floor before they Sheehan broke his promise and they were published.

So both the nature of what was released and the intention different. In some ways Snowden is braver than Ellsberg (or more foolhardy) as Ellsberg tried to use the system. On the other hand revealing methods will be of benefit to those who are trying to attack the US. In any case Snowden has bought himself a major legal nightmare and Ellsberg's case offers no precedent for him.

[JoePhilly]

42. Another great piece.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

47. You say that Snowden is helping the enemy. Why is the NSA treating us as the enemy?

We are not the enemy.

It is bullshit to pretend that we are.

[grantcart]

49. The nature of the information is different

The Pentagon Papers was almost exclusively about information that the North Vietnamese knew but the American people didn't (like the Gulf of Tonkin Incident).

The information that Snowden released consisted of information that has an operational value to those it is targeting.

You can be for or against its release but it isn't really similar to what Ellsberg did IMO.

It will also have more significant legal implications for him if he is ever prosecuted.

Now I would agree that efficacy of the program may have been of valuable at one time but that Al Queda has almost certainly made counter moves to make its value next to nothing.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

51. WE ARE NOT THE ENEMY. You don't get it? Too bad.

[grantcart]

52. Yes, we have no bananas, they are offered for a discount in quantity.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

53. As nonsensical as your defense of the NSA-spying upon all of us.

[AverageJoe90]

59. Right on, Grant!

Ellsberg was genuinely concerned about government abuses and wanted to make his concerns known.....but Snowden? Only god knows what was really up with Fast Eddie Snowden when he ran off to Russia.....and the funny thing is, not only did Snowden hate the very hackers he claims to be an ally of today just four fuckin' years ago he's even been connected to the Pauls by multiple sources.

Snowden is no fucking hero. He's a lunatic, plain and simple.

[woo me with science]

43. Cannot recommend this post enough.

This is how far we have come, and yet the propaganda tells us everything is just fine.

It's not. This may be our last chance to save ourselves and the world from these monsters.

[duffyduff]

45. The difference is the political party of the presidents involved. n/t

[damnedifIknow]

46. We let them

Shred the Bill Of Rights and treat the Constitution if it were just a god damned piece of paper. Many did speak up but most decided to play along in the name of safety. We reap what we have sown.

[avaistheone1]

48. Thank you Willy T

for this!

[WillyT]

54. Anytime avaistheone1... Anytime...

[840high]

55. I thank you, too.

[WillyT]

62. You Are Quite Welcome !!!

[Madmiddle]

56. IF WE DON'T RISE UP AGAINST THESE ASSHOLES

we deserve what we get. This shit needs to stop. We are the ones that need to stop in. Secret votes in the night. Drones, wiretaps, computers monitored by the NSA, the terrorist are running America and if we let this go on freedom or at least what we call it will be gone...

[indepat]

60. It's almost as if Big Brother requires us to be like good little Germans of the 1930s/early 1940s,

never questioning any thing government does, no matter how illegal, unconstitutional, inhumane, no matter that their government of, by and for the people seems to be entirely controlled by monied corporate interests and operated almost entirely for their exclusive benefit. May my grand-children's generation let Big Brother know in no uncertain terms that this nonsense will no longer be tolerated on their watch.

[cantbeserious]

61. Thank You For Sharing

eom

[Egalitarian Thug]

63. Exactly. K&R

[Zorra]

64. "I HOPE SNOWDEN"S REVELATIONS WILL SPARK A MOVEMENT TO RESCUE OUR DEMOCRACY..."

Rescuing our democracy is important, that's why I am shouting what Mr. Ellsberg said, in case anybody is wondering about that.

So many here don't seem to think anything is wrong at all, at the very same time that many of us, like Mr. Ellsberg, believe we need A MOVEMENT TO RESCUE OUR DEMOCRACY.

[Civilization2]

66. indicative of the fall to corporate-military rule,. the closing of a free and open society.

Zero tolerance for naysayers who undermine AUTHORITY.

This has is little to do with "national security", and much to do with keeping the 'rabble' in line and afraid.

[snot]

67. K & F-ing R'd!

[woo me with science]

68. Kick. Then and now.

Then and now.

[WillyT]

69. Last Kick From Me...

[woo me with science]

70. kick