Any theories on what really happened between Zimmerman and TM?

[KurtNYC]

Here is mine based on the phone call tapes, physical evidence and Zim's early version of what happened:

When Zim says in his first interview with Serino on 2/27:

Zim: When he came up to me, he said, “You got a problem?” and I said no. And then I went to reach for my phone to find my phone to call 911 instead of non-emergency.
Serino: OK.
Zimmerman: And then is when he punched me. He said, “You have a problem now.” And then he punched me in the face.

what really happen is that there is some verbal exchange and then Zim pulled his gun, NOT his phone. TM panics because Zim has still not identified himself as neighborhood watch and TM's friend told him that Zim could be a rapist, or TM may think that Zim is about to shoot him for some unknown reason. TM punches him in the nose with his right hand (possibly even before he drew the weapon). Then there is the wrestling. TM shouts for help because he believes, with good reason, that if Zim can get the gun on him, he will be shot. "Heeeelp!" for 20 seconds or so. Zim gets the gun on TM's chest and fires one fatal shot. TM's screams stop.

Then Zim immediately starts thinking about what it will take to claim self-defense and what any witnesses may have seen or heard. The first officer is on scene within a minute or so and Zim knows, based on his college class work that for this to be self defense HE has to be the one in fear. In spite of the gun and the running pursuit and the kid's screams for help, Zimmerman knows that his story has to be that HE was in fear for his life. He knows that if he says he got out of his car to pursue then he is not in fear, so he says he was looking for a street sign -- in his own neighborhood which has only 3 named streets and he is neighborhood watch -- he is looking for a street sign (?)

What is your theory?

[arcane1]

1. I think Z grabbed or otherwise accosted Martin, and set it all in motion.

[Finnmccool]

2. That's mine also pretty much point by

point.

[Politicalboi]

3. I think TM never even hit GZ

I think it was his gun that came back and smacked him in the face. Cuts on GZ head could have been from him hitting his head on his own car door frame as he was chasing TM. Or he could have cut his head if he slipped on the ground. GZ is a coward who felt like a big man with a gun.

I hope he is found guilty.

[Warpy]

4. I think Martin might have tried to hide

and startled Zimmerman, wannabe cowtown marshall with gun drawn. A startled Zimmerman aimed, provoking Martin's screams, then fired, shutting them off.

I don't buy that a skinny kid who had barely turned 17 started a fight with a big bruiser like Zimmerman, or that he was any threat at all to the MMA poseur, Zimmerman.

I think this is a case of vigilantism and why Zimmerman needs to be found guilty. The last thing we need is open season on people walking around their own neighborhoods by swaggering idiots with guns and an exaggerated sense of their own righteousness.

[LittleBlue]

5. I don't think TM reached for Z's gun

But otherwise it went down the way Z described. He was a nosy neighbor, possibly racist, and followed Martin. Martin saw a rather small looking guy following him around. Confronted him. Zim starts shitting himself. TM senses that fear and an easy beatdown, jumps Z, pummels him. TM never saw the gun or went for it, unlike what Z says. To stop the fight, Z drew gun and shot. I don't think he had on his mind whether to wound or kill Trayvon, but probably he's panicking to make the beating stop. He freaks out when he sees Trayvon has been shot fatally, calls for help, etc.

To me, this is the most plausible scenario.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

32. Why would Trayvon double back and ambush after losing Zimmerman?

That runs counter to every basic human instinct in such a situation.

Zimmerman's story doesn't add up logically.

[LittleBlue]

33. I don't think it runs contrary to every human instinct

Maybe he thought a child molester was an easy mark and deserved it. Maybe he was angry at being followed.

If you're not afraid of a person, you won't necessarily run away. A 5'8" guy doesn't exactly strike fear in most larger men.

This is the most likely scenario, IMO.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

34. Really? If you think someone might sexually or physically assault you....

....and you manage to get away from them, your next thought would be, "Hey, let's show that creepy stranger I was just running from his business !"

That's idiotic.

I seriously hope you aren't involved in instructing women or children what to do if they are being pursued by a sexual predator.

[LittleBlue]

36. If he didn't appear to have a gun

and I thought I could beat him easily in a fight, sure I might turn around and ask why the hell he's following me.

If it's a 6'4" heavily muscled guy with gang tattoos, I'm running. If it's GZ, I'm 6 inches taller than him, so no way would I run.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

38. Then why run from him in the first place?

If there's one point of agreement between Zimmerman and Rachel Jeantel's account, it was that Trayvon a) ran from Zimmerman and b) lost Zimmerman.

Clearly Trayvon was unsettled enough by Zimmerman to have initially run from him. If Rachel's testimony is to believed, he might have even thought he was a sexual predator.

So why would someone who has managed to escape the zone of danger choose to do a complete 180 and go back and reinsert himself into the zone of danger that he so clearly sought to escape?

Does not compute.

[LittleBlue]

43. If a 6'1, 17-year-old were running

how could he be caught by an obesity-battling Z? I realize that Z had tried to slim down, but going on 30 there's no way a short unathletic guy like Z could run down a teenage TM. Not with the kind of head start described at trial.

Impossible. Therefore I must conclude that TM did not run from confrontation. That part is not truthful.

[lumpy]

52. Why do you say that TM didn't run from Zimmerman when Zimmerman said

he was running ?

[LittleBlue]

57. Zimmerman said he took off and he lost

sight of him, but had actually gotten behind him.

I don't think there is any chance for a man like Z to catch a young, athletic man like TM. So I have disregarded any notion that TM was terrified and running.

[uppityperson]

59. They are talking about the 6'1" Trayvon and obese Zimmy, not reality

[lumpy]

68. Thanks, your'e right

n

[uppityperson]

56. Your "facts" are not truthful. Trayvon was not 6'1" but 5'11"

[LittleBlue]

60. I heard testimony that he was between 5'11" and 6'2"

Whatever it is, a short man in late 20s battling obesity will never, ever catch a 5'11" slim 17-year-old when the youth has a large head start.

Impossible, therefore dismissed as irrelevant.

[uppityperson]

65. He was measured at 5'11". And "never"?

[LittleBlue]

72. Unless Martin pulled his hamstring

or sustained a knee injury running, there is no way in hell Z can run him down.

That isn't logical. It isn't even plausible how such an unathletic man could run down a teenager who is slimmer, more athletic and taller.

[uppityperson]

133. You are assuming they were in a race. It is very plausible that TM thought he lost Z so slowed down

and talked on his phone. They weren't racing, by the way. Seems like you missed that.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

58. But the only two accounts in evidence both have him running from the confrontation.

Unless you are saying both Zimmerman and Rachel Jeantel were lying.

But if Zimmerman is lying, why would he be lying?

[LittleBlue]

61. You're wrong

Zimmerman did not say he ran off. He said he ran but had waited for him in an walkway as Z ran past to the next street. He said in fact he must have waited there out of sight.

I watched the videotaped walkthrough Z gave to police, attempting to confuse me is futile.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

66. Did you listen to the 911 call?

All we got from that was that "He's running" and then "He ran."

He lost him. That's all we know. Anything else Zimmerman said after the fact is highly suspect.

[LittleBlue]

67. Yes, he lost him

That's my point. How the hell can Zimmerman catch someone he's already lost, and is much slower than anyway?

It is not logical. A terrified, running TM cannot be caught by Z, it is impossible unless Z is an Olympic sprinter or something.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

75. He could have looped around Retreat View Circle and cut back to the dog path.

Or, as I explained in another thread, he could have encountered Trayvon if Trayvon were heading back up the dog path to go back onto Retreat View Circle so he could best identify Brandy Green's house. (This was a townhouse community where all the houses looked the same, not to mention it was dark, not to mention Trayvon didn't live there and probably wasn't all that familiar with the houses to identify his house without knowing a house number.)

The only thing that's illogical is the notion that someone would intentionally double back to "ambush" his strange pursuer after he had just managed to lose him.

[LittleBlue]

87. That's a lot of "could have"

The OP asked what I thought happened, and my version is the most logical to me.

I find GZ's version to be most plausible. Part of his version is backed up by a neighbor, and the injuries he sustained also back up his version. The arguments against it assume illogical events or are speculation.

Seems pretty easy to understand. You have a different opinion? Great! I don't find it persuasive. You needn't waste time arguing with me further.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

92. John Good didn't witness the direction either person was making before the fight.

He saw a very brief snippit of the physical altercation, and that's it.

And Zimmerman's injuries are hardly consistent with his head being slammed into concrete 10-30 times, which is what his story is.

Cognitive dissonance is cognitive.

[LittleBlue]

97. TBH

I came into this trial thinking Zimmerman was guilty, but changed my mind during the course of the trial. The lack of evidence, the poor prosecution witnesses, the prosecution's inability to prove a point without it being muddled with serious doubt, these things made me reverse my opinion.

When you say "cognitive dissonance", you're speaking to someone who thought Zimmerman was guilty as sin for over a year.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

101. I have no idea what your thought processes were up to today.

All I can say is that today you seem intent on taking Zimmerman's account of events as gospel truth, not considering the logic (or lack thereof) behind his supposed recollection or considering whether misstatements or embellishments may have been made by him in the hopes of escaping legal liability.

[LittleBlue]

103. The OP asked what my theory was

These are my theories as to the most probable course of events. I did not take Z's side in everything, as I said his assertion that TM went for the gun was most likely a lie.

You're hell bent on dismissing all evidence to the contrary. I hope to hell you are never called to a jury. You have used your pretrial prejudices as justification to ignore the reality of what's happening in the courtroom.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

109. So what's the evidence that Trayvon doubled back and ambushed Zimmerman other than GZ's own account?

His is the only story who backs up that claim.

Whereas the notion that Trayvon did not double back and ambush is supported by at least one witness, Rachel Jeantel, whether one chooses to believe her or not.

[LittleBlue]

114. I don't believe her

or any of the testimony by TM's family/friends or Zim's family/friends. Each one has motive to lie. I only consider direct witnesses credible, witnesses who don't have any motive to lie.

The fact that Z and TM got into a physical altercation tells me that TM did not run home. He clearly stopped for whatever reason. I believe, like most boys his age, he was angry at being followed. Just about every boy I knew at that age was confrontational. I do not think Z ran him down and started a fight, hence why he has the cuts and broken nose. Z's assertion of 20-30 times? Z's assertion that TM went for his gun? Probably a lie he concocted to make it seem like a more justified self-defense. Or at least, he has motive to lie. But of the irrefutable evidence, I believe his injuries are enough to indicate he was in a fight, and was injured enough to warrant self-defense.

This really doesn't seem that complicated to me. If Z's story was completely implausible, if he had no injuries, if Good had seen Z on top instead of TM, then I would have a different opinion.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

116. And Zimmerman would have no motive to lie?

Is that your position?

[LittleBlue]

119. I think he did lie

about how grave a situation he was in. He had seen enough cop dramas to know that "going for a gun" is the cop self-defense card. So he used it. I do not think TM would have started a fight with a man who was armed, and once fighting I do not think he would have been aware enough to notice the gun in Z's jacket. I don't think it's plausible that Z had his head smashed 20-30 times against the pavement, else he would be dead. I think it more likely 5 times or less. But those cuts on the back of his head happened somehow, so there was definitely some slamming going on.

[heaven05]

122. ???

[heaven05]

121. ???

[heaven05]

120. ???

[uppityperson]

135. ???

[heaven05]

107. ????

[LittleBlue]

123. Please stop spamming my notification system

4 spam replies of question marks and laughs with no content. The next step is to use the Alert system.

[uppityperson]

136. I do not think that word means what you think it means. There is plenty of content in the replies.

[heaven05]

140. go ahead

alert. I'm laughing at your responses. They are ludicrous to the extreme and show a level of stu..... that is unforgivable.

[uppityperson]

134. "You needn't waste time arguing with me further." Oh. Kay. Discussion board, remember?

[Just Saying]

71. You're wrong.

Zimmerman to police dispatcher: Shit, he's running.

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html#document/p2/a49098

Rachel backed this up and said he stopped because he thought he lost Zimmerman and they continued their conversation until the altercation.

It's disingenuous to pretend that a man in his late 20s with a 40lb weight advantage and who works out 3 times a week is somehow at a big disadvantage. Not to mention he was armed.

[LittleBlue]

74. That backs up Z's testimony

Z said he ran but waited for him. That backs up exactly what I'm saying.

Even if Z got within talking distance of him, and TM still wanted to run away, he could have easily. You get slower as you age. Z was fat and well past his prime, TM was in his prime, taller and more athletic.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

78. But why would he want to bring himself back into the zone of danger...

...after escaping it?

All you are doing is repeating Zimmerman's story. You aren't analyzing it as it relates to typical human response.

Brawndo's got what plants crave. It's got electrolytes.

[Just Saying]

79. A minute ago you claimed he didn't run.

And Z didn't say it.

And I'll repeat again, Trayvon had a witness who said he never waited for anyone, in fact thought he lost Z and was safe.

Late 20s is past his prime? You must be joking! How could you possibly know Trayvon was more athletic or who was faster?

You're just pulling things put of the air now.

[uppityperson]

85. Ah, but it is the magical multiarmed 3 inch taller Trayvon they are talking about.

[Just Saying]

90. True story lol

Also thug who was casing houses at 7 pm armed with iced tea and skittles who they'll imply was trespassing, then claim he knew the development well enough to find Zimmerman in the dark.

[Finnmccool]

106. She didn't say he was running she said

She told him to run and he said he'd just walk faster.

[JimDandy]

84. So BOTH Zimmy and Jeantel lied to the police

Last edited Sat Jul 20, 2013, 08:47 PM - Edit history (1)

when they said Trayvon ran?

Why would Zimmy lie on tape to the non-emergency police operator about a detail that is usually a sure way to get the police out there...and then also make the remark "they always get away".

And Jeantel confirmed that Trayvon ran, when she related in court what Trayvon himself told her he had been doing in the 20 seconds their phones were disconnected, and that he then said, when she urged him to keep running, that he didn't need to, because he was near his father's house.

No one I've heard, not the defense nor the prosecution, have disputed that Trayvon ran.

[LittleBlue]

88. No, read the above

Z's testimony is being misrepresented.

[Finnmccool]

112. She didn't say that she said she told

him to run and he refused

[reusrename]

108. The Martin kid was smart enough not to lead him to his house.

I still can't believe anyone is buying any of this bullshit from a lying little punk.

Martin turned and asked him: "Why are you following me?"

Still Zimmerman didn't identify himself as neighborhood watch. If he had Martin would have told him that he lives in the neighborhood.

Zimmerman made his favorite fantasy come true that night. He stalked and then killed a "fucking punk."

Of course he dreamed about it, why else would he behave the way that even he admits he did?

[Vattel]

47. I had two guys following me at night, yelling insults at me when I was alone in a foreign country.

I was scared and managed to find a bed and breakfast and went inside. Once inside my fear flipped to anger and I went back out looking for them. I found them, approached them, and asked if they were looking for trouble. Luckily for me, no fight resulted. (I am no fighter.)

You don't understand human nature if you think fear can't easily switch to anger.

[Just Saying]

53. There's no evidence that this happened in this case.

He was on the phone with Rachel up until the altercation started and according to her he never said anything about being angry or finding the "creepy cracker." In fact he said he lost Z and was close to where he was staying.

[Vattel]

69. I should have directed my post at post 32.

The claim I deny is that it runs counter to every human instinct to suppose that Martin might have fled but then decided to return and confront Zimmerman. Such behavior wouldn't surprise me in the least.

I don't know whether Martin actually sought out Zimmerman. The evidence suggests that might well be what happened, but it is also quite possible that it didn't.

As for Jaentel, she is the least credible witness imaginable. Her recorded interview by a Florida state prosecutor is comical because of her obvious willingness to lie.

[Just Saying]

82. I don't agree on Rachel

And there no evidence Martin sought out Zimmerman. In fact evidence goes against it. Why would Trayvon be on the phone with anyone if he planned to pursue Z? Not logical.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

89. At the very least, the phone records show that Trayvon was on the phone....

....nearly up until neighbors first started witnessing a commotion.

A person planning an ambush probably wouldn't want to be distracted by a phone call, nor would they want to give away their position by verbally talking on a phone.

[KurtNYC]

105. I have been looking for a timeline that overlays the various phone call times

and the times during those calls that we can hear certain events like the door on Zim vehicle, the screams, the shot. Haven't found one yet. Might have to make one.

[Vattel]

91. Why would he be on the phone? Why not? People are always on the phone these days.

If Martin didn't double back, why after several minutes did he end up almost where he started running? I suppose he might have got lost in the dark. Or maybe he was going back to the store because he forgot something. Who knows? Lots of possibilities.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

95. But it wouldn't make sense that he would want to attack the strange man he had just escaped.

That's the most important part that you are missing here.

[Vattel]

115. It would make perfect sense if he felt dissed or wanted to be a tough guy.

Even being afraid can drive someone to want to prove to himself that he is tough.

Besides, it seems likely that he did approach Zimmerman's car earlier to check him out. So apparently he wasn't all that scared.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

86. Jeantel admitted lying on two matters:

Her age and the reason why she didn't show up for Trayvon's wake. Not really material to the story at hand.

On all other matters, she pretty much stuck to her story throughout.

True, she might not have been a polished witness and maybe she was hard for some people to understand, and others might be turned off by some of the phrases she used (which I contend only made her story more believable), but I don't think her credibility was as shaky as you made it out to be.

[lumpy]

55. Anyone who would seek out and confront pursuers in a foreign country

is not wrapped tight. Your "story" has little to do with Zimmerman's "story".

[Vattel]

73. I was responding to the suggestion that fleeing but then fighting runs counter to human instinct.

As for my story, I am embarrassed by what I did. I was young and stupid.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

62. Assuming what you say is true, how long did it take for you to switch emotions...

....and go out and confront them?

Again, assuming this is true.

[Vattel]

77. A few minutes.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

80. And you reached a safe enclosed area with lots of people around.

So your story, if true, isn't analogous.

[Vattel]

94. Seriously dude. It is hard to squeeze human nature into a little box.

Yes, I went inside the safe area, Martin didn't. My basic point is that people who feel aggrieved sometimes get pissed off even if they were scared at first.

[nomorenomore08]

44. Martin wasn't really "larger" than Zimmerman though. Zimmerman's shorter but a lot heavier.

nt

[lumpy]

64. Martin was certainly not 'larger' than Zimmerman; he was taller and was an

physically undevoped teen. Zimmerman's heft would be an advantage.

[KurtNYC]

37. the screams for help end with the gun shot

your scenario would have them starting with the shot

Also I don't see Zim as just a "nosy neighbor" since he took classes in criminal law and spent a year in the gym. He wanted to be in law enforcement. He started the neighborhood watch and was the only person patrolling. So to me that points to this fatal shooting being the result of, in a sense, insufficient field training and supervision to safely, for all involved, do what Zimmerman wanted to do, eg. be a cop who catches the bad guy, aka "assholes" who "always get away."

[lumpy]

50. How did Zimmerman manage to get on top of Martin? When and how did Martin

punch Zimmerman? Is an eye witness wrong about seeing the shooter stand up and get off of the victim on the ground?

[quinnox]

6. I think Zimmerman chased Martin down, and then when Martin turned to confront his pursuer, something

like this happened -

Zimmerman - "Hey you little punk, so what house were you trying to case?"
Martin - "What the fuck are you talking about, man? I was minding my own business, trying to make my way home, and then you start following me and shit. What's up with that?"

Zimmerman (moving closer) - "I'm not going to let you get away this time, you fucking punk!"
Martin - "What the fuck you going to do?"

(Zimmerman approaches Martin and a struggle breaks out between them, and ends with Zimmerman drawing his gun and killing Martin in cold blood)

[KurtNYC]

49. I think that is a lot closer than what Zim puts forth for the vebal exchanges

In Zimmerman's version of events, TM always tells him what he intends to do next

According to ZIm, TM says: "you do now" and then punches him. It is very close to having him say outright: "I am about to punch you" and then Zim characterizes the attack as a surprise and being "jumped". I missed most of the MMA instructor but I hope they asked him "What would you tell your students to do if a person tells them 'I am about to hit you in the face.'?

Zim also has TM saying: "You're going to die tonight!"

I think these two lines help Zimmerman try to portray himself as the initial victim but I have never heard a real person talk like that. It just doesn't make sense, especially when the other person has the gun.

[lumpy]

83. Makes more sense than Zimmerman's 'story'.

I think Zimmerman got the bloody nose wrestling with Martin, Martin got a load of Zimmerman's gun during the scuffle and that's when he started screaming for help. The rest is not disputed and pretty well verified that Zimmerman was on top of Martin when he shot Martin in the chest.

[Cleita]

7. Mine is what it always has been. Neighborhood watch guy with a Napoleonic complex,

ignores instructions to wait for police to deal with a suspicious person, that person being a kid walking, minding his own business while being an African America. Zimmerman bullied the kid. The kid fought back so Zimmerman killed him.

[russspeakeasy]

13. You need a nap.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

24. And a pizza. nt

[russspeakeasy]

25. Excellent !

[brush]

14. Right! All black kids are always at fault in your world

Even the ones stalked and gunned down while minding their own business.

Do you have any idea how racist you sound?

[sgsmith]

18. Yea, I'm real racist.

That must be why I went to my neighbor's house last night, knocked on his door at 10 pm to let him know that he left the interior lights on his car on.

He's black too.

[Just Saying]

30. All black kids aren't alike.

Just like you don't exemplify everyone of your race.

[lumpy]

99. Racists can be decent and friendly to blacks at the same time carry along

their ingrained racist feelings. Most black people are aware of this.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

102. Maybe his neighbor is Allen West?

Just sayin'.

[brush]

138. Pls read your post again

It's sounds racist. If it doesn't sound racist to you, you may have a problem that you aren't conscious of.

[Lisa D]

17. What difference does it make that they were black?

Just asking.

[Kali]

127. oh no difference

the neighbor is too, didn't you read that?

classic Freudian slip there.

[Nevernose]

19. If you wonder who sent the alert

It was me, and I don't really care what the jury's opinion is, because implying things about "black kids" is effing racist.

[HappyMe]

20. Wow.

[cherokeeprogressive]

9. Asshole shoots and kills kid.

Although I don't believe a case has been made for 2nd degree murder.

[Warpy]

15. Yeah, I expect a verdict of manslaughter

meaning the scumbag will be back on the street in 5 years, menacing anyone he doesn't like.

[alsame]

10. That's pretty much what

I believe too.

The 'reaching for his phone' at that point always seemed very strange to me - why would GZ think TM would hang around while he called the cops again? Makes no sense to me.

I think GZ added that part about reaching for his phone in case there were any witnesses - he would have an explanation for that motion, claiming he was reaching for the phone instead of the gun.

[justiceischeap]

11. I'm not going to really speculate about what I think happened in those lost moments

but I will say one thing, if Zimmerman had stayed in his vehicle like he was asked to do, we wouldn't be discussing this today.

[arely staircase]

12. Zimmerman initiated a confrontation (probably grabbed Martin)

He started getting his ass kicked, panicked and shot Martin. It is a perfect example of the problem with letting just anyone carry a gun around. They feel like they can start trouble they normally wouldn't and even if they would, instead of just going home and putting ice on their wounds and maybe mulling over the lesson they learned, they kill an innocent kid.

[NoOneMan]

16. How do we know Zimmerman wasn't actually intending to rape him at gunpoint?

[nomorenomore08]

54. Given all the wild speculation otherwise, why not?

[Hoyt]

21. A punk who needed fight training and a gun to feel tough; murdered an unarmed black kid.

Nothing else matters to me because unarmed teenager was left lying on the ground in the rain just after 7:00 on a Sunday evening as evidenced by a haunting photo as police arrived guns drawn yelling at black kid repeatedly to show his hands.

F*ck bigots and guns.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

22. My personal theory?

Zimmerman got out of his car because he thought Trayvon was "up to no good", a "fucking punk" and an "asshole who always got away."

He wasn't a police officer, but he was determined to be Johnny Law in his little community. He probably thought the Sanford PD had been slow to respond to his prior calls, and he was determined to be the guy who brought this particular "punk" to justice.

So he got out of the car because he wanted to detain Trayvon until police arrive, and he could feel accomplished in front of police. Basically polishing his ego. The specific fact that he has a gun on his side bolsters his courage.

He chases Trayvon but quickly loses him. He's still on the phone with dispatch, and dispatch tells him they don't need him to follow him. Zimmerman says "Okay" but in all actuality he has no intention of heeding such advice. Otherwise it would just be another example of another "asshole" getting away. That is why he changes his mind to dispatch, telling police to call him instead of meeting him at the car. He knows he likely won't be at the car when police arrive.

He continues to snope out the neighborhood, probably goes onto Retreat View Circle at the east end of the complex thinking maybe Trayvon headed out the east gate.

(At this point, Trayvon, still on the phone with Rachel, has slowed down and may be hiding out in the dog walk area to make sure the coast is clear before he continues to head back home).

Not finding Trayvon on Retreat View Circle, Zimmerman cuts back through into dog walk area....and to his surprise, he sees Trayvon slowly ambling back to his house (possibly even heading back up the dog path to get to Retreat View Circle, because that would be the best way to identify the house since he wasn't intimately familiar with the community).

Trayvon asks why Zimmerman (a stranger who he had never met before and who he had no idea as to why he would be chasing him) why he is following him. Zimmerman barks at Trayvon what he is doing here without identifying himself as being in the Neighborhood Watch.

Trayvon, still unaware who Zimmerman is, mouths off to the effect that it is none of Zimmerman's fucking business.

At this point, Zimmerman has had enough. In his mind, his suspicions about Trayvon have now been confirmed: he is up to no good.

Zimmerman reaches to grab Trayvon's arm to detain him for police. Trayvon backs up a little but Zimmerman is able to get a hold. Reflexively, Trayvon swings his fist and lands it square on Zimmerman's nose. The force throws Zimmerman back onto the ground briefly, and the contact with the ground causes Zimmerman to scratch the back of his head. However, he quickly gets up and rushes back towards Trayvon.

The two grapple in a standing position for a brief moment or two. At some point they tumble to the ground. It is possible they briefly exchange places on top and on bottom.

Not satisfied with his own physical ability, Zimmerman decides enough is enough. He has a gun, after all. He figures he'll draw his weapon and it will cause Trayvon to cease resisting his efforts to detain him.

Unfortunately for Zimmerman, his drawing the gun causes the exact opposite reaction from Trayvon. Knowing that there is a stranger with a gun drawn on him and knowing he is in a residential community with lots of people around, Trayvon begins to scream for help. At this point, it is still possible that Trayvon is on top of Zimmerman but because Zimmerman is grabbing his arm with one hand and holding a gun with the other, it hinders any escape.

The last 10-15 seconds of Trayvon Martin's conscious memory are sheer and utter terror, and in fear of his imminent death.

Trayvon's opposite reaction in turn causes Zimmerman to panic. He knows that if someone sees him holding a person yelling for help at gunpoint it probably wouldn't look very good on his part. That and his nose hurts, and he's being shown up by a "fucking punk" makes his blood boil over. Better just shoot him and be done with it. This guy (Trayvon) is likely a criminal and in his mind, he's doing the neighborhood a service by eliminating a threat to the community.

He pulls the trigger, shooting Trayvon in the chest. Trayvon immediately collapses without saying a word.

Zimmerman gets up, leaving Trayvon face first on the ground. His mind at this point is racing on his self-defense and Stand Your Ground training. In the back of his mind, he knows he has acted over-aggressively and recklessly.

However, in Zimmerman's twisted mind, he still believes he was the good guy here, that Trayvon Martin was going to be committing some criminal act in the neighborhood had he not intercepted him, and he was somehow justified in shooting him by preventing such an imagined future crime. He believes the police will see him, the Neighborhood Watch leader, as a concerned "good guy" and that they will not press too heavily into any logical errors or inconsistencies that might arise in his story.

After all, Trayvon Martin was a "fucking punk," an "asshole who always got away" and "up to no good."

[Nevernose]

26. Sounds believable

Certainly more reasonable than Zimmerman's story(ies).

I wonder, though: did he pull the trigger on purpose, or did he pull it accidentally because he was panicked?

I don't think it makes a difference either way, but I'm still curious. Part of what we know about Zimmerman is that he's a wimp, which would imply accidentally pulling the trigger. We also know he has a history of violence and getting away with it, which would imply pulling the trigger on purpose.

[yardwork]

27. That is close to what I think happened

Except that I don't think that Martin punched Zimmerman. Those scratches on Zimmerman's nose weren't caused by a fist.

[KurtNYC]

100. This photo looks like a broken nose and it is pushed to the left side

which would fit with being hit by the right fist of the other person so I do think he was punched.

http://guitarwarp.blogspot.com/2012/12/george-zimmerman-broken-nose.html

[yardwork]

110. The nose could not possibly have been broken that evening.

Photos of Zimmerman hours later at the police station show no swelling at all.

[uponit7771]

28. ...then the SPD drug test the dead guy and doesn't drug test the guy who did the shooting

[Little Star]

41. I wish the prosecution asked the cops why they didn't test Zimmerman but..

did test Zimmerman.

I think the cops & Zimmerman had the same mindset (that Trayvon was a punk) from the get go. Dumb asses!

[gollygee]

45. Sounds much more believable than

Zimmerman's story.

[brush]

51. Excellent post

[spanone]

23. yes, gz shot and killed a kid eating skittles.

[olddots]

29. My theory is about gun ownership .

pride of ownership on Zimmerman's part when you own something you want to use it for the intentions it was made for =killing .You own a computer to use it and this law that the case is really about is another thing Zimmerman wanted to use .

One dead kid ,one fool with a gun and one country devolving into a bad cowboy movie .

[Nevernose]

46. What's that old saying?

When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail?

[Gregorian]

31. A guy with a gun killed an unarmed person.

[OregonBlue]

35. Exactly, an armed man followed and shot an unarmed teenager. Everything else is irrelevant.

[Little Star]

42. That's where I'm at.

[Pelican]

39. Good guess....

[ladjf]

40. Zimm engaged and shot him. nt

[customerserviceguy]

48. How does witness John Good's testimony

of seeing a "ground and pound" fit into your theory? Also, how does your theory explain GZ's injuries?

My theory is that TM wanted to get in GZ's face, thought he could intimidate GZ from following TM around the neighborhood in the future. A struggle ensued, and GZ shot TM while the former was on his back. We'll have a weapons expert on the stand before the defense rests. The only thing that I can't explain is how the Skittles either stayed in or got back into TM's hand. It certainly wouldn't have helped GZ to have put them back there.

Yes, GZ's story as egged on by Sean Hannity certainly has a lot of movie melodrama in it, but lying to a reich-wing talk show host is not the same thing as lying on the stand (which he won't be placed on, IMHO) or even to the cops. In any case, the jury's already heard the Hannity interview, and more recent revelations have been filling their minds.

[uppityperson]

63. JG said he could see colors after dark when it was impossible to do so. He is not believeable

[customerserviceguy]

70. What do you think

his motive for lying would be? In any case, do you dispute that he saw a struggle, or simply that he could identify who was on top and who was on the bottom?

[brush]

98. The reason why you can't explain

why the Skittles were still in TM's hand seems pretty obvious if you think about it, and the fact that Martin's hands were mostly unmarked.

If you're about to intimidate someone and then proceed to beat the hell out of them, the first thing you'd probably do is PUT THE SKITTLES IN YOUR POCKET wouldn't you think?

Martin never punched zimmy 35-40 times or smothered his nose and mouth or repeatedly bashed his head against concrete 20-30 times as zimmy said because all of that really can't be done with Skittles in your hand, you know.

zimmy is proven liar (to the judge in COURT about his finances and passport) and that stuff never happen.

zimmy was the wannabe cop with MMA training and a gun . . . a recipe for aggression if you ask me. You gotta gun, you're gonna want to use it.

He initiated the whole confrontation by most likely grabbing Martin and trying to do a citizen's arrest. That's when the struggle started, they probably rolled around on the ground and zimmy's head probably contacted the sidewalk that way.

zimmerman, because he outweighed Martin by 40 lbs, had superior adult male upper-body strength, plus MMA training, used all of that as leverage to come out on top where he proceeded to continued trying to restraint Martin (that would account for the "downward movement" that Goode testified to. And remember, Goode at first told police he saw the Martin on top "raining down blows, MMA style", unto the figure on the bottom. He later recanted that to just "downward motion."

But let me ask you, who would be the most likely one to end up on top in a wrestling match like that? The stronger, heavier male with the adult male upper body strength and MMA training or a slim teen with Skittles still in his hand?

Martin continued struggling, maybe even got in an upward punch or two to zimmerman's face (the busted lip photo) which enraged the volatile zimmerman (remember a former security co-worker of his told about zimmy's Jeckel-and-Hyde level of temper that he saw displayed when zimmy aggressively manhandled a female party goer at an event they worked security for).

The physically stronger and now enraged zimmerman reacted to TM's struggles, which probably became even more and more desperat when zimmerman produced the gun, by firing.

It may have been just for the satisfaction of finally being able to shoot someone, but most likely, zimmerman, with his lack of police training in stressful situations, panicked and pulled the trigger.

Result: Dead teen body with Skittles still clutched in its hand.

[customerserviceguy]

104. There are a lot of facts and testimony

that don't add up. That's probably the way most trials go, it's a matter of which witnesses back up which knowable facts.

Fact: TM had Skittles in his hand when found dead. Fact: GZ had injuries from what looked like a street fight. How do you reconcile these two things? If Zimmy did it to himself, then the prosecution failed to even hint that in their side of the case.

[brush]

111. Did you read my post?

And zimmy's injuries were called VERY MINOR in court by the woman ME. She said he just needed a BAND-AID for the small scratches on the back of his head.

I think they wrestled but he didn't have any serious injuries like one might get in a street fight.

[geek_sabre]

117. I thought skittles were found in pocket

The witness (don't remember which) said she pulled them from his pocket

[korak]

124. Skittles, Etc.

The Skittles, Arizona Watermelon Fruit Juice Cocktail, and a red lighter were found in Trayvon Martin's pockets!

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/06/trayvon-martin-death-photos-shown-zimmerman-trial.html

So please stop it with the Skittles in the hand!

[customerserviceguy]

130. I'll admit

I learn most things I know about the trial from either the mainstream media, or here. I heard the "Skittles in hand" thing here, but not in the media. I stand corrected.

In that case, the one piece of this that I thought didn't fit with my theory of the case really doesn't belong there. I would imagine the jury is doing a better job of paying attention than I am.

[Captain Stern]

125. You are correct.

According to the police report, the Skittles were in Martin's pocket, not his hand.

[KurtNYC]

118. GZ injuries appear to be: punched once in the nose and two head injuries

that may be from contact with either the sidewalk or the sprinkler box. John Good's ground and pound doesn't fit with the lack of bruising and injuries on TM's hands -- just a scratch. Zim doesn't have bruising that would be consistent with being hit in the head multiple times.

http://guitarwarp.blogspot.com/2012/12/george-zimmerman-broken-nose.html

Also the lack of Zim DNA on Martin's person and clothing makes it possible that he did not punch Zim in the nose. If you open up someone's nose the way Zim's looks in this photo, it bleeds a lot. If you are hitting and wrestling with a person bleeding that much then it gets on your clothes. They looked specifically at the ends of the sleeves of TM's sweatshirt for example and found nothing. Scraped his fingernails, etc. But my theory is still that TM punched Zim once because that is the kind of injury the picture shows. The only other possibility there is that one of the cops punched Zimmerman.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/09/1214336/-DNA-Report-does-NOT-support-Zimmerman-s-claim-that-Trayvon-Martin-caused-his-injuries#

And the Zimmerman story I quote in the OP is from Zim's first interview with Serino -- not the Hannity interview. I looked back through the interviews that were done right after the event to try and see how Zim's Story changes to fit with evidence that is shown to him later -- the 911 tapes for example. It doesn't change much and it doesn't fit with the recordings.

Links to 4 transcripts are here:
http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php?topic=2144.0

[customerserviceguy]

131. I'm expecting

the O'Mara defense to have found their "expert" who will have a totally different take on GZ's injuries than the prosecution expert had. It becomes a question of dueling experts, and that leads the jury to the photos. Each of those women is going to imagine what it would take to get her face looking like that, and it's not going to go well for the prosecution.

The cops hit him??!! Why would they do that, since they were inclined to believe him from the get-go, and if they had done so, why wouldn't it have come out when GZ had a really shoddy lawyer before the crafty O'Mara?

[KurtNYC]

139. I give the cops hit him only a small chance of being what produced Zim's nose injury

Why? To help him and his story because without the nose his injuries are almost nothing at all. He is claiming that his head was hit on concrete 20+ times and that he was hit in the face 30 times or so. If Zim has no injuries when the cops get there then it doesn't look like self defense, just looks like he shot someone who was unarmed and doing him no harm.

If the first blow of the fight is TM's right hand to Zim's nose and then they wrestle on the ground or there is more punching, or as Zim claimed Trayvon tried to smother him, then there should be blood on TM's hands, clothes, fingernails, etc. There isn't. The blood on Zim's face runs out of his nose and stops at his lips. This suggests that after he was hit, he tilts his head straight forward.

Not saying that the cops punching him (to help his story) is the most likely scenario, only that it fits with DNA evidence and the cops were on Zimmerman's side from the beginning. They don't drug test him, don't arrest him and they don't ID the victim and contact next of kin for 24 hours or so. TM's phone was right there -- open it up and see if "DAD" is one of the contacts/phone numbers and you have ID'd him in 30 seconds. The Serino interviews are interesting because Serino takes the "good cop" angle with him -- says 'help me understand this' and 'people are going to have questions about this.' Serino gives the impression that he doesn't think all of Zim's story is correct but the thrust of his interview is toward getting Zim to tell a story that accommodates the evidence.

Zim is on his feet and walking immediately after shooting TM. If his head was hit on concrete 30 times I would think he would at least sit down. Also Zim has never claimed that his memory of the event is unclear due to head injuries -- that would be common. Generally any strong impact on the skull can interrupt the process where short term memories get integrated into long term memory. The harder the blows, the more time you lose to this black out effect. Zimmerman NEVER says his memories of the fight are unclear.

And to be clear, my theory is that TM hits Zim in the nose with his right hand as Zim is pulling the gun out, then TM is screaming and struggling to keep Zim from pointing the gun at him for the 20 seconds or so that we hear his screams for help on the 911 tape.

[miked62916]

76. That's pretty easy

Mr.Z met Trayvon, and murdered him in cold blood shortly afterwards. Simple as that. Hope GZ rots in prison.

[Rex]

81. An adult with a firearm killed an unarmed teenager.

That is what I think happened.

[voteearlyvoteoften]

93. He would have run faster if he knew Z had a GD gun!

So the skinny kid can run faster argument does not hold up unless Trayvon knew he was in mortal danger.

[coeur_de_lion]

96. Sounds about right

Hope the jury feels the same way.

[Ruby the Liberal]

113. Zippy approached Trayvon aggresively "who are you and why are you here"

or some such. Trayvon said "who TF are you" or some such, tussle happens, Zippy unholsters his gun, they struggle, Zippy on the ground with the weapon visible (possibly Trayvon trying to contain the arm/hand holding it), Trayvon on top of him screaming, Zippy points the weapon at him and fires, screaming immediately stops. Kel-Tek (known for a strong kickback), recoils and hits Zippy in the nose, knocking his head back where he gets an owie from the winter ground (stones, twigs, etc). Trayvon is forced backward and lands on his stomach with his arms under his torso, his legs twisted from the blast.

[JoePhilly]

137. +1

[moondust]

126. After the shot, did Zimm question anybody about what they had seen,

i.e. the first "witnesses" to arrive on the scene?

What else did they talk about? The "intruder"? Recent burglaries?

Zimm may have already been calibrating his self-defense story taking into account whatever anybody said they saw.

[burnodo]

128. what really happened: Zim murdered Trayvon

Period.

[Skittles]

129. Zimmerman reached for his gun, not his phone

Travyon, fearing for his life, attacked

[Sancho]

132. Here's my Zimmerman theory...

GZ followed TM down the dog path and confronted him...TM tried to go home...GZ grabbed TM from behind ("let me go" heard on the phone)...they fell backward together/slipped on the wet grass...TM's head hit GZ in the nose (no blood on TM's hands) while GZ hit his head on the sidewalk...they rolled together in the grass with TM yelling help and trying to get loose...TM tried to get up to run away...GZ shot him.