When Is A Military Coup Not A Military Coup? When The White House Says So.

[cali]

Last week Senator Leahy called for U.S. aid to Egypt to be cut off. The coup in Egypt is clearly and indisputably the military overthow of a democratically elected government. Senator Leahy's call for cutting off aid came before the horrendous events of this morning.

Soldiers and police officers fired on hundreds of supporters of Mohamed Morsi, Egypt’s ousted Islamist president, as they prayed before dawn on Monday during a protest outside the facility where he is believed to be detained, sharply escalating the nearly week-old crisis convulsing the country and further dimming any hope for a political reconciliation.
Multimedia

At least 51 civilian demonstrators were killed and more than 300 were wounded, all or almost all of them by gunfire, health officials said. Dozens of witnesses said the soldiers and police officers had opened fire unprovoked, an assertion that was immediately challenged by the military authorities.

<snip>

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/09/world/middleeast/egypt.html?pagewanted=all

Responding to the ousting of Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi on Wednesday, Senator Patrick Leahy (D-VT) said in a statement that U.S. law is clear that foreign aid "is cut off when a democratically elected government is deposed by military coup or decree."

"The Morsi government has been a great disappointment to the people of Egypt, and to all who wish Egypt a successful transition to responsive, representative government under the rule of law," said Leahy, who is chairman of the Appropriations Committee’s Subcommittee on the State Department and Foreign Operations. "He squandered an historic opportunity, preferring to govern by fiat rather than work with other political parties to do what is best for all Egyptians. Egypt’s military leaders say they have no intent or desire to govern, and I hope they make good on their promise."

"In the meantime, our law is clear: U.S. aid is cut off when a democratically elected government is deposed by military coup or decree. As we work on the new budget, my committee also will review future aid to the Egyptian government as we wait for a clearer picture. As the world’s oldest democracy, this is a time to reaffirm our commitment to the principle that transfers of power should be by the ballot, not by force of arms.”

vewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/sen-leahy-us-aid-to-egypt-is-cut


The White House said on Monday it is not in the best interests of the United States to immediately change its aid program to Egypt, where President Mohamed Mursi was removed from office by the military last week.

The U.S. government is not yet prepared to label the Egyptian military's overthrow of the government as a coup, a decision that would determine whether U.S. aid to the country would continue, White House spokesman Jay Carney said.


"There are significant consequences that go along with this determination and it is a highly charged issue for millions of Egyptians who have differing views about what happened," Carney told reporters at a briefing.

"We are going to take the time necessary to review what has taken place and to monitor efforts by Egyptian authorities to forge an inclusive and democratic way forward," he said.

<snip>

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/08/us-egypt-protests-usa-aid-idUSBRE9670VC20130708

[dipsydoodle]

1. Why use one word when you can use six"

"an inclusive and democratic way forward" = elections. They've already had those and doubtless current events will recycle next time round too.

[cali]

3. this disgusts me. there's no other way to put it.

Funny that Senator Leahy doesn't find this so complicated. He was in the Senate when Barack Obama was in High School. And no, he's not senile.

[Downwinder]

2. Didn't we see this before in Honduras?

[ProSense]

4. It was a "military overthow of a democratically elected government" that people were cheering.

Now the people of Egypt must suffer. The law is the law.

I think the administration should work with Congress on determine if aid can be renewed.

[cali]

5. So the hell what? The definition of a military coup is clear- as Senator Leahy

says. And I doubt that the people are cheering today after the military slaughter of dozens of civilians. The President is violating your oh so cherished law. Saying it's not a military coup doesn't make it any less of a lie.

[ProSense]

8. I was

"So the hell what? The definition of a military coup is clear- as Senator Leahy says. And I doubt that the people are cheering today after the military slaughter of dozens of civilians. The President is violating your oh so cherished law. Saying it's not a military coup doesn't make it any less of a lie."

...pointing out a fact, and stating that the law is the law. By saying "your oh so cherished law," are you implying that you don't cherish the law?

Did I say it wasn't a "military coup"?

[cali]

11. if you concede that it is a military coup, then you must also

concede that the White House is going against the law. And you have shown that you a stickler for the law.

[ProSense]

13. Yes, but

"if you concede that it is a military coup, then you must also concede that the White House is going against the law. And you have shown that you a stickler for the law."

...does that mean that unlike me, you're not "a stickler for the law"?

As for conceding, that "that the White House is going against the law," I made this point: I think the administration should work with Congress on determine if aid can be renewed.

[friendlyFRIEND]

9. damn I agree with ProSense :) nt

[cascadiance]

21. This is a recent law made in 2011... Otherwise, I probably would have had to leave Turkey in 1971..

... instead of 1973 when I was there if it was around then when the Turkish military overthrew the elected Turkish government, and if Americans had to pull out all aid from Turkey then. That had happened four times and would have been a real problem with American/Turkish relations over the years if they'd not had a way of looking at this situation more pragmatically. The Turkish coups were not always pretty and not perfect, but in those cases democratic rule was restored.

If Erdogan cracks down even more in Turkey with recent events there and a coup is done to stop that sort of crack down, would the U.S. have to pull out all of its operations in Turkey too?

I think there needs to be some sort of evaluation of the way the present government is acting if it is subverting democracy in its rule, even if it was initially elected as a majority government. Probably not as a clear issue as we'd like it to be.

[cthulu2016]

6. I find that I cannot get upset about this coup

Absent a white hat so white that it is worth the horrors of chaos I do not automatically fault the military here.

I do not find, for instance, instituting Sharia in the most populous Arab nation to be clearly better than the current situation. (Unlike in Iowa, instituting Sharia in Egypt is not a daft fantasy but rather a possibility.)

If the military said they were acting to preserves what rights women currently have in Egypt it would surely color perceptions here. I doubt that is their particular motive (their desire is long-term social stability, IMO, whether their methods are effective or ineffective to the goal), but it is probably true in effect if not design.

The same could be said for the rights and safety of, say, Coptic Christians. (A little under 10% of the country) What if they said they needed to prevent Egypt from sliding away from the Camp David accords? Etc..

I see nothing simple here. My support of democracy is no stronger than my opposition to theocracy. Those two things usually go hand in hand, but not always. The imposition of secularism may be repugnant to our first-world sensibilities but it has a long history in the middle east that is not all bad, by any means.

I remain agnostic here, and will not be entirely swayed by atrocity stories from or about either side. The fog of riot and insurrection makes the fog of war seem like a summer day in Maine.

[cali]

7. and the massacre this morning by the military?

[friendlyFRIEND]

10. and the massacre yesterday of teenagers thrown off rooftops

by Morsi/Brotherhood thugs?

[cali]

12. not the same thing. A horrible crime but not one done by the government.

also not near the loss of life.

[friendlyFRIEND]

14. committed by henchman OF the former government. nt

[cali]

15. and what part of that makes them part of any government?

[friendlyFRIEND]

18. oh ffs...

so you think Egypt was better off under Morsi and the Brotherhood rather than giving Egyptians another chance at a good government?

By the way, for decades the Egyptian military has had the reputation as the adult in the room with close ties to Western military leaders.

[cali]

23. I don't know yet. who the fuck says that Egyptians are going to get another chance at good gov't?

The military that slaughtered over 50 people this morning and gone back on their promise to appoint El Baradei as interim president?

And ffs this crap about the "adult in the room" is just absurd. Furthermore, you don't exactly produce any evidence for that claim, do you, dearie?

[friendlyFRIEND]

26. I believe that the military needs to keep order

While Egypt has groups of wise men and women draft a consensus constitution and arrange for orderly and fair elections.

I mean... I know that Mubarak was so bad and all, but Mubarak Egypt was a stable Egypt. The Morsi Egypt was a disaster. The Egyptians have decided they dont want Mubarak or Morsi so lets see what they come up with.

One little apect of this that might not be so clear... Egypt needs tourism to survive.

Westerners won't visit an Egypt that is run by Islamic fundamentalists. A stable secular Egyptian government is essential for the prosperity of Egypt.

[cali]

28. Fair enough. I disagree. I think that's the authoritarian pov

[friendlyFRIEND]

29. let me clarify Cali.

If the military takes this opportunity to be the permanent government or they appoint some ex-General to be President, all deals are off.

Let's see if the Egyptians can elect themselves a secular government that respects the rights of womens and ethnic/religious minorities.

[cali]

31. That would be the best outcome. I have grave doubts about its likelihood

[dipsydoodle]

16. Thats the equivalent

of blaming all fans of one football club for the violence of a few of them.

[Scootaloo]

17. Also bad

But not 51-people-dead-and-300-wounded-by-government-forces-while-at-prayer bad.

Unless of course you're going to make the argument that some lives are worth vastly more than other lives.

[friendlyFRIEND]

20. at prayer?

Military claims they were rushing the barracks. Who to believe...

[Scootaloo]

22. When it comes to the military firing on civilians...

I'm very prone to taking the civilians' story over the military's. History shows that in such situations, the guys with the gun love making the people without guns out to be existential threats who needed to be eradicated.

[patrice]

32. MSNBC's analyst on the ground referred a few days ago to a difference in the military's

attitude toward what is going on in the Sinai compared to Morsi's, which difference (whatever that amounts to - ???) could be an important element in how this works out.

I will see what I can find on this, but I was wondering if the implication that it is the People's military is authentic, something else that analyst said, and if that is true how that might affect/change Egypt''s attitude toward Palestine.

[MineralMan]

19. When the military has been in charge all along.

That is the case in Egypt.

[octoberlib]

24. Morsi was democratically elected , then turned around and made himself a dictator.

After Morsi temporarily granted himself unlimited powers to "protect" the nation in late November 2012,[7][8] and the power to legislate without judicial oversight or review of his acts, hundreds of thousands of protesters began demonstrating against him in the 2012 Egyptian protests.

I was a political science major in college and in Democratic Development class they taught us that if the military is supporting a popular uprising of the people , it's not considered a military coup as long as democratic elections and government proceed from that support. Political scientists call it a self coup. But supporting is the key word here. The violence changes everything and is a stupid move on their part.

Morsi has no popular support from the people. They don't want him in power. The violence is unnecessary.

[cali]

25. Oh please. You think there's a lot of support for the military after this morning

and after the military breaking its promise to appoint El Baradei as interim President?

[octoberlib]

33. The people may not support the military now but they also

don't want Morsi back in power. It's a difficult situation, that's for sure.

[Comrade Grumpy]

40. Where did you go to college? A coup is a coup.

[octoberlib]

41. Yes, it is still a coup whether it's military

or self coup.

[patrice]

27. Does the need to figure out who killed these people today create any perspective at all on the

question of whether a President does, in fact, need reliable intelligence that is not shaped by leaks?

[Cali_Democrat]

30. The White House said..."We are going to take the time necessary to review"

I don't see a problem with this. They will review. Sometimes these things take time and various avenues are explored.

Things don't always move as quickly as the breathless internet keyboard warriors want them to.

Patience, young grasshopper

[cali]

34. Pat Leahy chair of the sub committe that governs this aid

disagrees.

Senator Patrick Leahy: ‘Our law is clear,’ U.S. must cut off aid to Egypt

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/07/03/senator-patrick-leahy-our-law-is-clear-u-s-must-cut-off-aid-to-egypt/

Somehow I have a hard time picturing you saying "Patience, young grasshopper" to the most senior Senator in that body and 3rd in line to the Presidency.

[Cali_Democrat]

36. And I'm sure Patrick Leahy's input will be taken into consideration

as the White House reviews.

The internet keyboard warriors and the armchair presidents want things to move at the drop of a hat.

Things are complicated and not everything is as easy as it seems. I don't have a problem with the White House taking time to review this. Events in Egypt are still moving fast.

Avenues will be explored and various options will be taken into consideration.

Patience, young grasshopper.

Patience

[dgibby]

38. Isn't the Speaker of the House the 3rd in line? n/t

[cali]

42. no. it's vp, speaker then president pro tempore of the senate.

[Gin]

35. Yep....its about money..and semantics..if they call it a military coup...US law says we stop funding

Thier military......from what I read....we subsidize their military in a big way.

[HooptieWagon]

37. Obviously its a military coup.

Obama is being dishonest again. And again the US will back a dictatorship over a democratically elected leader...we have a loooong history of that.

IMO, neither option is a good one for Egypt, or the US. So many times in the past we've interfered and fucked the situation up worse than before... to everyine's detriment. Sen Leahy's proposal is a good one. Suspend aid temporarily, and let the Egyptians sort it out on their own. When the country has stabilized, and there is a government in control keeping order, then resumption of aid can be negotiated.

[pampango]

39. Juan Cole called it a "revocouption". With millions in the street it was not your typical coup but

neither was it classic revolution in which the millions in the street just sweep the government aside like happened in Tunisia.

In fact, there certainly was a popular revolutionary element to the events, with literally millions of protesters coming out on Sunday and after, in the biggest demonstrations in Egyptian history. You can’t dismiss that as merely a coup d’etat from on top by a handful of officers.

But on Wednesday there was also a military coup, provoked by the officer corps’ increasing dissatisfaction with President Muhammad Morsi as well as a determination not to stand by as the country threatened to devolve into chaos, as rival street crowds confronted one another. In the end, the revolution and the coup worked in tandem.

They were a “revocouption.” Such a conjunction is not unusual in history.

http://www.juancole.com/2013/07/egypts-revocouption-democracy.html

[cherokeeprogressive]

43. Don't be surprised if Jay Carney comes out tomorrow and says the administration has it

on good authority that Morsi "asked the military for protection" and then resigned his presidency.