General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBravo Austria !!! Thank you for grounding President Morales' plane! (UPDATED)
Austria can let Morales fly out on a different plane.
IF Snowden is hiding on that grounded plane he'll eventually come out when he gets hungry enough or starts going nuts from being offline too long
UPDATES on the links below...
Austria did not fear Snowden was on Morales plane: minister
DU LBN OP: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014525977
And lots of updates in the COMMENTS on this DU thread too: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023155696
think
(11,641 posts)Isn't it ridiculous?
think
(11,641 posts)Kurovski
(34,655 posts)TOS:
Don't be a wingnut (right-wing or extreme-fringe).
Democratic Underground is an online community for politically liberal people who understand the importance of working within the system to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of political office. Teabaggers, Neo-cons, Dittoheads, Paulites, Freepers, Birthers, and right-wingers in general are not welcome here.
----------------------
Cheering the bullying of Latin American leaders is right-wing crap that one would expect on Free Republic but not on DU.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Jul 3, 2013, 05:49 AM, and the Jury voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: Way to boss around all them there leaders 'o them podunkity l'il countries . Woo-Hoo!
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Tx4obama is a long time, liberal DUer, not a wing nut, and his or her post is within the range of opinion of progressive DUers.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: Horrified to see that post. It's not something you expect from a real Democrat in character.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: Crazy imperial garbage- shouldn't be on DU.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
think
(11,641 posts)That I sent this to jury you are mistaken. I prefer posts this outlandish stand on their own....
Kurovski
(34,655 posts)Merely presented in the spirit of transparency, and as close to the top of the thread as reasonably possible.
think
(11,641 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)The comments on how they voted reflect their personal opinions on the poster instead of how the post might violate DU standards.
[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]
think
(11,641 posts)It should be used only for spam and very blatant TOS violations.
As for being on the jury; if one feels their emotions overshadow objectivity they should excuse themselves from the jury rather than act upon an emotional basis. I have had to excuse my self several times though I really just wanted to speak my mind or vote based on how I felt rather than the factual basis for the verdict to be decided upon.
I don't feel good about not completing the jury process but prefer to abstain when my objectivity is clearly questioned be it by my own subjectivity.....
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]
muriel_volestrangler
(101,399 posts)The alerter felt it was; and so did the 3 jurors who voted to hide it. Although juror #2 took tx4obama's history into account, they still said they thought this particular post was OK.
So it seems to me that all jurors understood and did their duty properly. They just disagree on whether the opinions in the OP are right wing.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Kurovski
(34,655 posts)Only one decision is based on past character "clues". So it would more accurately read "comment" rather than "comments" in your post.
Nothing too weird about it, IMO.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)However, I wish the gentleman would explain his reasoning rather than just throw out flame bait. I would like to see how a person can reconcile that OP with what we generally understand to be traditional democratic principles.
Romulus Quirinus
(524 posts)Woooo! MURICA!
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Austria can ask for an inspection, Bolivia can tell them to go fuck themselves, and Austria can refuse to let the plane fly.
International law is still ticking away.
Response to Recursion (Reply #6)
Romulus Quirinus This message was self-deleted by its author.
Romulus Quirinus
(524 posts)pretty much an entire continent seems to disagree, but hey, they aren't Americans. What do they know?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Bolivia can't be forced into letting other countries look in their Air Force Uno. Austria can't be forced to let another country's plane into their airspace. Unstoppable force meets immovable object, and all that.
Romulus Quirinus
(524 posts)They couldn't just decide to shut it out and let them crash for obvious reasons, and they can't restrain them from leaving.
Something vienna something weak like that. Good thing international law is for chumps, right?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)And Ecuador can't force them to open their airspace.
What happens when sovereignties collide?
No, they can't keep Correa there, and they absolutely can't board without Ecuador's permission. But Ecuador also can't force Austria to let them take off.
Edit: apparently it's Morales and Bolivia, not Ecuador and Correa?
Romulus Quirinus
(524 posts)Really?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)But nation A also can't force nation B to let a plane fly over, which is a problem when that plane is on the ground in nation B.
Romulus Quirinus
(524 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)And I don't think this has ever been tested before.
Romulus Quirinus
(524 posts)BBC says he's not there, and no one else says the plane is "grounded", only that they are staying there until tomorrow.
I suspect OP jumped the gun (in more ways than one).
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)tabasco
(22,974 posts)Russia sent one of our jets back in a box, a long time ago. Actually, several boxes.
think
(11,641 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)and typed the wrong name.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)You're actually happy to see the President of a sovereign nation insulted and treated like a suspected terrorist? Amazing ... and slightly nauseating.
kenny blankenship
(15,689 posts)and when you point out the, uh, let's say hyperpartisan nature of their behavior, they cry for the censor.
polly7
(20,582 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)usGovOwesUs3Trillion
(2,022 posts)Edward Snowden is a modern day Paul Revere with a thumb drive full of the news that Tyranny is coming!
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)usGovOwesUs3Trillion
(2,022 posts)Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)or something
Perish the thought.
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)"Literally, 80% of the books I put a star on, I don't read."
He spends most of his time online rating down liberal books and movies he hasn't watched or read. Not honing his positions, understanding the issues, becoming informed. Oh so boring when all you need to do to prove your commitment is give Michael Moore's "Sicko" bad reviews online.
I'd tell the guy to get a life, but all the life I can imagine for him involves a lot of jerking off in his mom's basement.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Last edited Thu Jul 4, 2013, 10:33 AM - Edit history (1)
Warpy
(111,405 posts)Snowden just came up with enough evidence to prove it is happening, embarrassing a bunch of bureaucrats because it is happening via private corporation without any public oversight, at all.
usGovOwesUs3Trillion
(2,022 posts)exactly, and that is why it is such a HUGE story.
It was amusing watching the scum sucking lackeys defend wrong-doing before this by saying it was technically impossible, legal, not done to Americans, etc. but now that we even have documentary evidence of their wrong doing they still try to dismiss it as only 'power point' slides, like the type of document used matters in anyway.
we are very fortunate Snowden was willing to sacrifice everything to provide this evidence in order for we the people to demand changes.
it reminds me of everything they do today, privatise it, not only does it remove regulatory scrutiny, as you mention, but it also puts cash in their masters pockets.
This needs to end.
im1013
(633 posts)Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)chimpymustgo
(12,774 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)donheld
(21,311 posts)Rowdyboy
(22,057 posts)I see a Golden Globe at least in the future!
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)as Europe looks on
Rowdyboy
(22,057 posts)PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)However, the day they do, we are in deep doodoo.
HipChick
(25,485 posts)Next Question..
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)would magically fill with F-22 raptors
Violet_Crumble
(35,980 posts)Because don't you know the USA is exceptional and there's a different standard applied to the US than to South American countries that have suffered under the hegemonic dominance of the US for many many decades...
treestar
(82,383 posts)Face it, Obama is President of a far bigger country than Morales is.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Many countries will do our bidding because we trade with them and send aid. Maybe they don't want us bullied by some moron who stole classified documents. We have a lot to do with defense of other countries, too. I don't think we are universally perceived as "bully" in the way you insist.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Your view of international law appears to be "if you are small you get pushed around, if you are big you get to do the pushing". Those are Bully Rules. I find the ethics of that to be vile.
treestar
(82,383 posts)This is the world international stage. The "bullying" is the reality then. We have a bigger population and contribute more - so it's not very likely there are countries dumb enough to kick themselves in the foot by worrying about who is on AF One. Then again, we are not likely to have some criminal from their countries on AF One, trying to get him out of some pickle he is in across the globe.
If a poor family hides someone who harmed a member of a wealthy family, you're OK with that just because of the reverse "bullying" - that would show that rich family, right?
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)2. start participating in international organizations such as the world court.
3. reject the Bush era doctrines of unilateralism.
etc.
Demit
(11,238 posts)neverforget
(9,437 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)So they must think that, too?
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)No, governments that we have the ability to coerce to do our bidding are doing our bidding.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Or, to stick to the point, those countries must believe in American Exceptionalism too then.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)sibelian
(7,804 posts)That's for clearing that up, treestar!
neverforget
(9,437 posts)and I think it's wrong
suffragette
(12,232 posts)I think more along the lines of Ballou:
"But now, instead of discussion and argument, brute force rises up to the rescue of discomfited error, and crushes truth and right into the dust. 'Might makes right,' and hoary folly totters on in her mad career escorted by armies and navies."
AZ Progressive
(3,411 posts)...have infiltrated DU. These pro-authoritarian Obama bots are so comical and notorious on DU that I don't believe they are anything else but either hard core Democratic Party members that think the party can do no wrong, or Phony Democrats / DLC Democrats. True Democrats embrace critical thinking, rather than blindly follow in lockstep with the party or party leader.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Even those who would not have put Jews in ovens in WW2 would nevertheless have been quite content to get a nice comfy job making oven mitts.
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)But I see is syco-, er "defenders" are right there to pick up the slack.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)as I have seen it, not to say this is "progressivism" but many here who have taken the moniker "progressive" over "liberal" seem to be quite the statists. As such I reject the progressive label and prefer liberal as I believe there is a distinction. So, let them be progressive, and let them be controlled. That's just my opinion.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)Did Tx think enthusiasm for this sort of behaviour would be contagious? Only the faithful will follow here.
xiamiam
(4,906 posts)I've put most of them on ignore in order to have sanity. They are very vocal and probably have little else to do all day and my suspicion is that some even get paid to post here.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)winter is coming
(11,785 posts)Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)we saw this on the right and here it is on the left. It is by design. The powers rely on this and they cannot tolerate any dissent whatsoever.
DearHeart
(692 posts)I barely ever log in anymore; way too much blind worship and bullying going on here lately.
Safetykitten
(5,162 posts)MisterP
(23,730 posts)"Our Doc, who art in the National Palace for life
Hallowed be Thy name by present and future generations.
Thy will be done in Port-au-Prince as it is in the provinces.
Give us this day our new Haiti and forgive not the trespasses of those anti-patriots who daily spit upon our country"
people like this DO NOT HAVE A LINE: nothing will make them turn away or recoil
frylock
(34,825 posts)a clear cut case.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)clearly violating the absolute diplomatic inviolability of a head of state is not in any way a bad thing, right? Wars have started over less.
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)They'd be begging for war!!
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #44)
woo me with science This message was self-deleted by its author.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Kurovski
(34,655 posts)""
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)"The Ugly American," Burdick and Lederer (1958). You should read it.
msongs
(67,465 posts)JimDandy
(7,318 posts)Wishing for a horrendous diplomatic incident is just sick.
This whole dirty mess sounds like it is furiously being swept under the rug...or on top, in the hopes is will just blow away.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I'm going to shorten this. Interior Minister, Johanna Miki-Leitner (Volks-Partei -- conservative Christian Party) said in the Austria 1 morning journal that if Snowden had been found on board (Morales' plane), it would have come to a routine asylum procedure in Austria. . . . . . Whether it would be successful, the Minister did not want to say. She did not want to interfere in the decision of the authorities and an independent court. Basically, a request for asylum in Austria must be filed within a country and that is so also in Austria. A request on behalf of Snowden through the Russian embassy in Moscow is therefore not effective. An exception from this policy is for the Minister not an option: "There are clear legal rules."
Mikl-Leitner: Österreich hat keine Angst vor den USA
Innenministerin Johanna Mikl-Leitner (ÖVP) sagte im Ö1-Morgenjournal, dass es, hätte sich Snowden an Bord befunden, zu einem regulären Asylverfahren in Österreich gekommen wäre. Ein solches Verfahren beginne mit der Feststellung der Identität der Person und einem Erstgespräch mit der Asylbehörde. Ob ein solches Verfahren Chancen auf Erfolg hätte, wollte die Ministerin nicht kommentieren. Sie wolle Entscheidungen von Behörden und unabhängigen Gerichten nicht vorgreifen. Grundsätzlich muss ein Antrag auf Asyl in Österreich immer im Inland - also in Österreich - gestellt werden. Der Antrag von Snowden über die russische Botschaft in Moskau ist deswegen nicht gültig. Ein Abrücken von dieser Position ist für die Ministerin keine Option: "Es gibt klare gesetzliche Regelungen."
Miki-Leitner stated that Austria is not afraid of the USA as are perhaps some other European countries because Austria did not close its airspace off to Morales. The Interior Minister said further, she understands the sympathy for Snowden that a large portion of the people have since afrter all, he started an important debate about the legitimacy of the secret police (not a really good translation for Geheimdienste -- maybe intelligence agency is better, but neither is right. I am not a native speaker of German.) Miki-Leitner described the current relationship with the USA as disturbed. That is why, with Germany. a catalog of questions was prepared and given to the USA and they are pressing for answers.
Mikl-Leitner betonte, es gebe keine Angst vor den USA, wie vielleicht in anderen europäischen Ländern, denn Österreich habe schließlich seinen Luftraum für die Maschine von Morales nicht gesperrt. Die Innenministerin sagte weiter, sie verstehe die Sympathien, die Snowden von großen Teilen der Bevölkerung entgegen gebracht werden, schließlich haben er eine wichtige Debatte über die Legitimität der Geheimdienste losgetreten. Mikl-Leitner bezeichnete auch die derzeitigen Beziehungen zu den USA als gestört. Deshalb gebe es auch einen Fragenkatalog, der gemeinsam mit Deutschland erarbeitet und an die USA übergeben wurde, und auf dessen Beantwortung jetzt gedrängt werde.
http://derstandard.at/1371171373025/Morales-Flugzeug-in-Wien-zwischengelandet---Snowden-an-Bord-vermutet
This report may be pretty old by the time people read it, but it is what I found on the Der Standard Austrian newspaper at 12:52 a.m. Pacific Time, July 3, 2013.
I warned that Germans and Austrians would not like this kind of surveillance. I studied this topic at one point of my life -- German speech rights. This program is very offensive to German-speaking people because of their experience with the STASI and the NAZI spying and concentration camps for which they paid so dearly.
This kind of program will lead to misery in the US. I warned that Germany and Austria would be seriously aggrieved, and now I am telling you that it will also end badly for Americans. I won't be its victim. I will probably be totally feeble before the water that we frogs are swimming in boils.
But those of you who take this lightly and think it is great just because Obama is in charge should stop to think. What if Romney had won the election? Obama will not always be in charge. We trust him, but he will not always be in charge. Stock up on second-hand books, old ones that were written before this nonsense. Do it now so you will have something to read when the internet turns into corporate nonsense.
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)Here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023155094
BUT if you read all the COMMENTS on this thread - here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023155696
It looks like they've worked it all out and there was only a misunderstanding.
Edited to add...
Here's an article form EARLIER that used the word 'grounded'...
Specter of Snowden grounds Bolivian presidential plane
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/02/19248688-specter-of-snowden-grounds-bolivian-presidential-plane?lite
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Humiliate and make accusations against the leader of a nation, send him home coach, then stare at his plane and hope Snowden falls out?
Do you have any concept of how pathetic and desperate this is starting to make you look, Tx4obama? Your plan is like a child grounded from television staring at a blank screen and imagining cartoons.
Seriously, it's been a fucking goofy week reading DU, but I think this takes the cake. What the fuck?
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And I figure the same about people giving themselves high-fives over it.
Response to Scootaloo (Reply #58)
Tx4obama This message was self-deleted by its author.
FSogol
(45,566 posts)tallahasseedem
(6,716 posts)comments from his little cult, especially after his outright laughable statement yesterday!
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)DU LBN OP:
Austria did not fear Snowden was on Morales plane: minister
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014525977
And lots of updates in the COMMENTS on this DU thread too: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023155696
backwoodsbob
(6,001 posts)most idiotic post in the history of DU
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)Specter of Snowden grounds Bolivian presidential plane
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/02/19248688-specter-of-snowden-grounds-bolivian-presidential-plane?lite
Geez, folks should get a grip.
Goodnight
Btw, there are SOME of us that are hoping that Snowden will be caught and brought to justice.
Not everyone is a Snowden fan.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And some of us who aren't are still weirded out by the Pavlovian puddle of drool you're generating there.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,399 posts)Even if Austria wasn't grounding Morales, you wanted them to.
randome
(34,845 posts)Both are wrong. But at least this OP didn't try to work in an insult to half of DU.
[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,399 posts)You sound conflicted ...
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)I fixed it! Thank you.
HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)states' sovereignty ushered in by the Peace of Westphalia back in, oh, 1648.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Westphalia
sibelian
(7,804 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)malaise
(269,237 posts)President Morales has common law absolute immunity, according to the 2004 Conventions and the Hague Tribunal according to their legal experts in international law.
Pholus
(4,062 posts)We have met the enemy and he is us.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)???
lunatica
(53,410 posts)You should be embarrassed.
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)Never again will the American people have to bare the burden of learning what is being decided behind closed doors by secret administrators, secret panels and secret courts. ONLY government that government that governs in secret governs correctly! Let all those who try to open these closed doors pay a very dear price!!
Melinda
(5,465 posts)Yours is the hands down most shameful thing I've ever read on DU. You've official jumped the shark. Shame on you.
RandiFan1290
(6,258 posts)Austria fuck yeah!
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Oh well, next time.
Vinnie From Indy
(10,820 posts)a few years back.
I am a bit stunned that an OP with such a high post count would post something like this.
HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)least some of the more cynical in the administration of Wilhelmine Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire). Gots to teach them uppity Serbs a lesson, don'cha know?
Of course, all who cheered Princip soon found themselves with ashes in their mouths.
Bravo to you, though, for remembering!
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)Even for a head of state, on diplomatic business. Wow. This was a really dumb move.
CanonRay
(14,125 posts)and so does his airplane, whatever you think of Snowden. Poster is way off base with this one.
demmiblue
(36,909 posts)truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)Maybe you need a time out.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)Persevere, persevere, persevere!
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)I have to say that this is the most monumentally stupid post I've ever seen on DU. And that's saying a lot. Congratulations.
xiamiam
(4,906 posts)eilen
(4,950 posts)gross. yucch. I think I am in the wrong place. Is this Agenda 21 or DU?
bullwinkle428
(20,631 posts)Sadly, there doesn't appear to be one.
Iggo
(47,581 posts)Whaddaya gonna do, right?
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Response to Tx4obama (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Response to Tx4obama (Original post)
Post removed
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)right above your post?
jollyreaper2112
(1,941 posts)You'll see who it's aimed at. FYI, the OP, tx4.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)stillwaiting
(3,795 posts)Kurovski
(34,655 posts)"Gotta say: this shit's embarrassing. Is this how the greatest superpower in the history of the whole goddamn world, as we're told again and again, is gonna act to try to catch a poindexter who handed flash drives to journalists? Snowden already gave away all that he had. Catching him ain't gonna stop a single secret from coming out anymore. It ain't worth pissing off an entire continent.
This whole thing feels so degrading, like getting a sweaty, drunken blumpkin in a festival port-a-potty. "
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023157579
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)It was NOT my intention to bash Morales or to even imply that 'he' should be detained, as I said in the OP Morales should have been allowed to fly out of Austria even if that meant leaving on a different plane.
The OP was posted due to my joy of the thought that SNOWDEN 'might' have been on the plane and there was a chance of 'Snowden' being captured.
And also due to the fact that the image of Snowden going through internet withdrawal while sitting on the tarmac was in my mind hilarious.
I understand that the majority of DU seem to be hoping that Snowden escapes US justice - I am not one of those folks.
Btw, in my opinion what I said in the OP was pretty tame compared to what many of the responses to me in this thread have been.
I am not a troll or a right-winger
Have a great holiday.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)I think you're a disgrace to American politics. I think you're a disgrace to politics.
Response to Tx4obama (Reply #146)
Post removed
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Some posters here have their priorities very seriously reversed, if you follow. I'd put the more obnoxious ones on ignore because they sing the same tune every post, and always out of key.
Oh and K/R!
Marr
(20,317 posts)suffragette
(12,232 posts)As in what? His plane impounded? Preventing him from using his own aircraft to proceed home?
All because of false assumptions likely based on faulty intel.
How patronizing.
Monroe doctrine thinking apparently never left for some.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Interesting
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)This also applies to their mode of transportation.
ALL PARTIES involved in denying him airspace are wrong and must be condemned.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Then again, look at the source.
Worth a kick to keep the OP foolishness on front page for all to see.
slipslidingaway
(21,210 posts)sibelian
(7,804 posts)slipslidingaway
(21,210 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)Tell me again about how "different" this administration is from the last.
Cowboy diplomacy in action.
The lines get blurrier each day.