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Sun Jun 23, 2013, 08:39 AM

Plame and Wilson: The NSA's metastasised intelligence-industrial complex is ripe for abuse

Where oversight and accountability have failed, Snowden's leaks have opened up a vital public debate on our rights and privacy

Let's be absolutely clear about the news that the NSA collects massive amounts of information on US citizens – from emails, to telephone calls, to videos, under the Prism program and other Fisa court orders: this story has nothing to do with Edward Snowden. As interesting as his flight to Hong Kong might be, the pole-dancing girlfriend, and interviews from undisclosed locations, his fate is just a sideshow to the essential issues of national security versus constitutional guarantees of privacy, which his disclosures have surfaced in sharp relief.
...
Prism and other NSA data-mining programs might indeed be very effective in hunting and capturing actual terrorists, but we don't have enough information as a society to make that decision. Despite laudable efforts led by Senators Ron Wyden and Mark Udall to bring this to the public's attention that were continually thwarted by the administration because everything about this program was deemed "too secret", Congress could not even exercise its oversight responsibilities. The intelligence community and their friends on the Hill do not have a right to interpret our rights absent such a discussion.

The shock and surprise that Snowden exposed these secrets is hard to understand when over 1.4 million Americans hold "top secret" security clearances. When that many have access to sensitive information, is it really so difficult to envision a leak?

We are now dealing with a vast intelligence-industrial complex that is largely unaccountable to its citizens. This alarming, unchecked growth of the intelligence sector and the increasingly heavy reliance on subcontractors to carry out core intelligence tasks – now estimated to account for approximately 60% of the intelligence budget – have intensified since the 9/11 attacks and what was, arguably, our regrettable over-reaction to them.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/23/nsa-intelligence-industrial-complex-abuse

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Reply Plame and Wilson: The NSA's metastasised intelligence-industrial complex is ripe for abuse (Original post)
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2013 OP
malaise Jun 2013 #1
think Jun 2013 #2
jsr Jun 2013 #3
Puglover Jun 2013 #4
nradisic Jun 2013 #5
FreakinDJ Jun 2013 #6
tavalon Jun 2013 #65
snappyturtle Jun 2013 #7
Pholus Jun 2013 #8
baldguy Jun 2013 #9
Pholus Jun 2013 #12
baldguy Jun 2013 #13
Pholus Jun 2013 #59
baldguy Jun 2013 #61
tavalon Jun 2013 #66
Pholus Jun 2013 #89
JDPriestly Jun 2013 #49
Rise Rebel Resist Jun 2013 #82
JDPriestly Jun 2013 #86
Rise Rebel Resist Jun 2013 #87
Ash_F Jun 2013 #79
FreakinDJ Jun 2013 #10
tavalon Jun 2013 #69
sibelian Jun 2013 #88
tavalon Jun 2013 #98
KittyWampus Jun 2013 #106
Pholus Jun 2013 #109
KittyWampus Jun 2013 #105
Pholus Jun 2013 #108
Agony Jun 2013 #11
Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #14
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2013 #15
Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #18
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2013 #21
Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #24
rhett o rick Jun 2013 #37
Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #39
rhett o rick Jun 2013 #40
Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #44
rhett o rick Jun 2013 #47
Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #48
rhett o rick Jun 2013 #51
Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #53
rhett o rick Jun 2013 #54
Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #56
rhett o rick Jun 2013 #58
Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #60
rhett o rick Jun 2013 #64
Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #72
cui bono Jun 2013 #75
Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #96
rhett o rick Jun 2013 #93
Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #97
railsback Jun 2013 #16
Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #19
RobertEarl Jun 2013 #22
railsback Jun 2013 #70
cui bono Jun 2013 #76
railsback Jun 2013 #81
cui bono Jun 2013 #84
railsback Jun 2013 #94
tavalon Jun 2013 #67
railsback Jun 2013 #71
tavalon Jun 2013 #73
railsback Jun 2013 #74
tavalon Jun 2013 #100
railsback Jun 2013 #101
tavalon Jun 2013 #103
railsback Jun 2013 #104
tavalon Jun 2013 #112
silvershadow Jun 2013 #111
JDPriestly Jun 2013 #50
tavalon Jun 2013 #68
L0oniX Jun 2013 #17
Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #20
myrna minx Jun 2013 #23
cynzke Jun 2013 #25
KittyWampus Jun 2013 #107
nashville_brook Jun 2013 #26
scarletwoman Jun 2013 #27
jannyk Jun 2013 #28
DirkGently Jun 2013 #29
KoKo Jun 2013 #32
DirkGently Jun 2013 #35
moondust Jun 2013 #30
Uncle Joe Jun 2013 #31
Harmony Blue Jun 2013 #33
brett_jv Jun 2013 #34
WillyT Jun 2013 #36
marions ghost Jun 2013 #38
blkmusclmachine Jun 2013 #41
mia Jun 2013 #42
RainDog Jun 2013 #43
BlancheSplanchnik Jun 2013 #45
thucythucy Jun 2013 #46
Ash_F Jun 2013 #83
patrice Jun 2013 #52
idwiyo Jun 2013 #55
Warren DeMontague Jun 2013 #57
RainDog Jun 2013 #62
Coyotl Jun 2013 #63
Ash_F Jun 2013 #77
Ash_F Jun 2013 #78
ReRe Jun 2013 #80
LarryNM Jun 2013 #85
Major Hogwash Jun 2013 #90
Helen Borg Jun 2013 #91
timdog44 Jun 2013 #92
dotymed Jun 2013 #95
tavalon Jun 2013 #99
Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #102
felix_numinous Jun 2013 #110

Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 08:41 AM

1. Get thee to the greatest page - MUST READ

kick

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 08:42 AM

2. Huge K&R /nt

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 08:45 AM

3. Great article

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 08:52 AM

4. Vroom!

I can hear the bus revving up!

Thanks for posting. Great article.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 09:07 AM

5. All of this is coming from foreign press...

American Journalism? Ha! It does not exist anymore, since our media is controlled by a few mega corporations that just feed us crap...notice how all of the NSA revelations are coming from foreign, mostly British press?

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Response to nradisic (Reply #5)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 09:10 AM

6. We lost the "Free Press" to Wall St decade ago

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Response to nradisic (Reply #5)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 12:45 AM

65. Foreign Press, yes, but very American names

Valerie Plame and her husband, Joe Wilson.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 09:12 AM

7. Good to hear from these two. Good, too, they point out that the

enormous system built to collect information is ripe for abuse.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 09:32 AM

8. It will be interesting watching "Democrats" smear THESE two... nt

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Response to Pholus (Reply #8)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 09:40 AM

9. They're saying power can be abused - they ARE NOT saying Obama is abusing it.

And the libertarian crazy RW assholes are trying to smear Obama by saying that's what he's doing: abusing his power - the same as way too many people here who claim to be "Democrats".

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Response to baldguy (Reply #9)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 09:56 AM

12. Which is why openly discussing such programs before implementation is important.

Rather than retroactively voting to make them "legal."

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Response to Pholus (Reply #12)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 10:39 AM

13. Openly discussing such programs is what Congress has done. Repeatedly.

They voted on FISA. They voted on what the NSA could do. It when to court, and part of it was struck down. What we have now is what is left.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #13)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 08:58 PM

59. Somewhat dis·in·gen·u·ous


Did FISA really cover the scope of the surveillance undertaken? Was Congress (past the actual security subcommittees) actually and fully briefed? Why were so many congresscritters frustrated that they couldn't take notes but the scope of the program was so broad that they couldn't even follow it all. If it was honestly openly discussed, why was the disclosure actually mentioned as being some kind of national security breach?

Nope, none of it passes the threshold of open discussion. As Krugman notes, not democratic but rather authoritarian Surveillance.

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Response to Pholus (Reply #59)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 09:20 PM

61. Congress, the Courts and the President disagree with you.

But then, these are exactly the people you don't trust - duly elected & properly appointed though they may be. And neither do the people you find trustworthy: Snowden, Glenn Greenwald, Glenn Beck, Rand Paul, Sarah Palin, the infantilized libertarian children, and the Tea Bagger nutcases.

Just who is going outside the Constitution here?

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Response to baldguy (Reply #61)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 12:48 AM

66. Obama is, unfortunately.

I wanted better for him but after "the minor encroachment", I will stand aside and let what's going to happen, happen. This was a golden opportunity for him but he handed it over to the Republicans, who actually started this evil program and said, "here, impeach me."

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Response to baldguy (Reply #61)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 05:48 AM

89. I needed a good laugh. Thanks!

Nothing like breathless Bushie hyperbole that boils down to "yer either wit us or agin us." You should be proud of your mad debate skillz!

How much was Congressed briefed?

http://www.whas11.com/news/national/211193081.html

Here is a Democrat not on your enemies list (better add him):

"There's very little trust in the government, and that's for good reason," said Rep. Adam Schiff, D-Calif., who sits on the House Intelligence Committee. "We're our own worst enemy."

Here is another Democrat (better add him too):

Wyden said lawmakers must have clear and direct answers to questions in order to conduct oversight. "This job cannot be done responsibly if senators aren't getting straight answers to direct questions," he said in the statement.

AND HERE IS THE MONEY BIT:

"Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?" Wyden asked Clapper at the March 12 hearing.

"No, sir," Clapper answered.

"It does not?" Wyden pressed.

Clapper quickly and haltingly softened his answer. "Not wittingly," he said. "There are cases where they could, inadvertently perhaps, collect — but not wittingly."

Oh, add Mark Udall to that list too.

You might be a "good party member," but I do not being lied to. Now go run off and try to find some cut-and-paste apologist talking point to try to explain why your nose hasn't grown about a foot here.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #9)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 07:24 PM

49. The executive branch is abusing its power with this program.

Obama happens to personify the executive branch at this moment, so he is going to have to take the blame for the fact that this nasty program which is incompatible with everything our country stands for, is continuing under his administration.

Sorry. But there is no excuse and no way around it.

I would like Obama to explain a) how this program which gives him access to knowledge about the metadata of all members of the government including those in and working for the legislature and the courts can possibly be compatible with the Constitution's requirement of three equal branches of government and, b) how this program is compatible with the concept of democracy.

Because there is no way on earth that he can explain those things since this program is completely incompatible with either the concept of the separation of powers or the concept of government of the people, by the people and for the people or anything resembling freedom or democracy. No way on earth. And no one on DU has done it yet in spite of the fact that I have posted challenges on these issues on many, many threads concerning these programs. Can't be done. These issues can be ignored, but they are the bulls in the china closet.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #49)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 02:44 AM

82. you post highly important points

 

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Response to Rise Rebel Resist (Reply #82)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 04:12 AM

86. Thanks. You might be interested be interested in my

post on the dissent of Thurgood Marshall in Smith v. Maryland. It was prophetic and insightful. How we miss Thurgood Marshall.

Here are my post and the links to that decision.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023080703

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #86)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 04:30 AM

87. hear hear

 

"Permitting governmental access to telephone
records on less than probable cause may
thus impede certain forms of political
affiliation and journalistic endeavor that are
the hallmark of a truly free society.
Particularly given the Government's previous
reliance on warrantless telephonic
surveillance to trace reporters' sources and
monitor protected political activity, I am
unwilling to insulate use of pen registers from
independent judicial review."


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Response to baldguy (Reply #9)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 02:23 AM

79. The NSA is not Obama's friend.

An organization like that is not staffed full of people friendly to Dems, progressives or even moderates.

PRISM wasn't Obama's idea. RW pols may be happy to smear him with an unpopular program because they correctly think it will score points with the masses, but they secretly support that BS.

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Response to Pholus (Reply #8)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 09:43 AM

10. +1000

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Response to Pholus (Reply #8)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 12:55 AM

69. Have you seen the pretzelizing going on right here?

They'll do it. Trust me.

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Response to tavalon (Reply #69)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 04:38 AM

88. "racist!" "Rand Paul supporter!"


I'm keeping a list of new political beliefs I supposedly hold.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #88)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 01:21 PM

98. Yeah, me too.

Constitutional conservative was my favorite slur thrown at me.

Now, I think it was meant as a smear, but as a very, very, liberal socialist, you would think I might not hold strong views about the necessity of following the Constitution. But I do, because those men were amazing and visionary and knew how to keep a country strong. Every time we stray like this, it destroys a little more of what the founding fathers wanted.

So I want to conserve the Constitution and add to it as necessary and very judiciously. I guess that does make me a Constitutional conservative. Slur or not, I methinks in that small case, I'm conservative.

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Response to tavalon (Reply #69)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 02:36 PM

106. Have you seen the imaginary bullshit going on right here? It's right here in this thread.

And you responded to it.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #106)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 04:54 PM

109. Yes, I know. With this very reply in fact. nt

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Response to Pholus (Reply #8)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 02:34 PM

105. Who is smearing them? They get to the point -I- make which is the import of attacking privatization

and the waste of taxpayer dollars.

Further, they are warning people about potential for abuse not lighting their hair on fire.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #105)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 04:52 PM

108. "We are now dealing with a vast intelligence-industrial complex that is largely unaccountable..."

"to its citizens."

But, but, but "checks and balances" and and and "FISA" and and and "briefings."

We apparently read different articles:

NOT privatization PROBLEM NUMBER 1: "Prism and other NSA data-mining programs might indeed be very effective in hunting and capturing actual terrorists, but we don't have enough information as a society to make that decision."

NOT privatization PROBLEM NUMBER 2: "We are now dealing with a vast intelligence-industrial complex that is largely unaccountable to its citizens. "

NOT privatization PROBLEM NUMBER 3: "And then you could have some explaining to do to an over-zealous prosecutor."

NOT privatization PROBLEM NUMBER 4: "On this spying business, officials from Director of National Intelligence James Clapper to self-important senators are, in effect, telling Americans not to worry: it's not that big a deal, and "trust us" because they're keeping US citizens safe."

But it's okay, cognitive dissonance explains a lot about the blind spots in your interpretation there...

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 09:44 AM

11. out-of-control Intelligence Sector matches our out-of-control FIRE sector...

Finance Insurance RealEstate. we know all of this, now what do we do about it?

get money out of politics
public banking
.
.
.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 10:44 AM

14. This is like ones brain, we don't know how it works but most of us use our brains. Many don't know

how a motor of a car works but we drive, get the point. What difference does it make if we don't know how the NSA uses the information if the results is terrorist plots are halted. This bunch has gone overboard and unreasonable. We now have this jerk running off at the mouth and running from country to country and from what I have read about his statements he doesn't know what he is talking about either. The ethical part was the Code of Ethics as a condition of his employment. Do you want the jerk running around and telling crap he does not know or understand to every body. He is a criminal, his actions speak loud, he is a scumbag. I think the outing will be the cause he apparently claims to be active in pursuing. He has told phone call record are being gathered, we have know about this for some years now, this is not new so what is his point.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #14)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 10:52 AM

15. So your stance is "I always trust my government, they always get it right"?

Even when that includes hiring subcontractors for the secret work? When senators like Wyden and Udall cannot get truthful answers in public about what the NSA does?

If "we have know about this for some years now", then why do the government want him arrested for talking about it? Why do you call him a 'criminal' for telling you what you claim you already knew?

Were you still happy when the Bush administration was doing this, but halting terrorist plots?

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #15)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 11:10 AM

18. You are not reading properly or you are putting your own spin on what I posted. You may not know

Snowden stole files from the NSA and thief usually results in arrest. He was a spy within the NSA and if he had properly read the Code of Ethics he would know charges of espionage would occur if he revealed information. He revealed information thus the espionage charge. Do I trust what Snowden is saying, no, he has lied when he signed on with NSA not to reveal the information he should not have. I also do not doubt every decision by our leaders.

Was I happy when the Bush administration was gathering information with out the required warrant, no, and I did not like the answer "we don't have time to go to FISA to get the warrant" answer either. Once these actions was corrected and compliance with the Fourth Amendment I have accepted this action. There have been terrorist plots halted, they just don't get out and brag when these plots are halted. We have to be more aware of our surroundings, travel is easy, movement around the country is easy and we have to open our eyes.

I hope this has answered some of your concerns.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #18)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 11:18 AM

21. No, I'm more concerned than ever that you will allow a government to do anything

as long as it tells you that it 'gets results'. If you actually thought about what Snowden has revealed, you'd see that it's information the American public needs to know to decide if the surveillance, on Americans and on foreigners, is proportionate. You yourself claimed you already knew it - though in that case it's strange that heavily involved senators think it wasn't publicly known.

"We have to be more aware of our surroundings, travel is easy, movement around the country is easy and we have to open our eyes." Are you saying you need to report more people to Homeland Security, because you think they're suspicious?

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #21)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 12:34 PM

24. Were you keeping up with events when the Patriot Act was passed? If the senators did not know this

was happening, then shame on them. It might be some of the same senators who does not attend security briefings and then complains they was not told. I was aware information was being collected during the Bush administration and with out the oversight of reviews with courts. FISA court has been available since 1979 so there was a source to have the oversight. Wiretapping has been occurring for years also, this is not new, and requires a warrant.

Don't waste your concerns on me allowing the government to do anything as long as it gets results for I have explained I did not like this collection or wiretapping without the required warrant. So it should be clear to you I am not for allowing anything to occur if it gets them results and I don't care who is in the Whitehouse, right is right and wrong is wrong.

As far as being aware of your surroundings, like in the case of the recent Boston Bombing, backpacks was placed and the one placing those left the scene. This turned out to be a problem, we should be aware of these actions. Security is going to have to be an effort of everyone, to look for signs of possible attempts to harm our citizens. Yes when we observe or hear of actions around ourselves then we need to report this to the proper agency who has experts to work with this information.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #24)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 05:55 PM

37. " Wiretapping has been occurring for years also, this is not new, and requires a warrant."

Not sure of your point there. By law it does require a warrant. Looks like they have been abusing that law. That's why we need further scrutiny. And I assume you agree we need further scrutiny.

Do you disagree with Ms. Plame and Mr. Wilson?

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #37)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 06:09 PM

39. It was abused, ergo Patriot Act to provide oversight and FISA Court was to decide on request

For issue of warrant. Where is the issue with you?

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #39)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 06:14 PM

40. You are telling me there is a law, and I am telling you it looks like the law is being ABUSED.

It never was legal to wiretap without warrant. Bush's spy agencies did it. Bush's spy agencies are now working for Pres Obama. Same crew. That's what this whole issue is about. THe abuse of the law. Spying w/o a warrant.

I stand with Ms. Plame and Mr. Wilson.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #40)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 06:41 PM

44. WTH, if the issue is the warrant then you dont have an issue, this was issued in FISA court. Dont

Replace the facts with your facts.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #44)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 07:15 PM

47. Did you read the OP?

"Let's be absolutely clear about the news that the NSA collects massive amounts of information on US citizens – from emails, to telephone calls, to videos, under the Prism program and other Fisa court orders: this story has nothing to do with Edward Snowden. "

"We are now dealing with a vast intelligence-industrial complex that is largely unaccountable to its citizens. This alarming, unchecked growth of the intelligence sector and the increasingly heavy reliance on subcontractors to carry out core intelligence tasks – now estimated to account for approximately 60% of the intelligence budget – have intensified since the 9/11 attacks and what was, arguably, our regrettable over-reaction to them. "

This issue is bigger than the blanket FISA warrant that's been published. That warrant is in direct violation of the 4th Amendment. It's supposed to be specific about what is to be seized and needs probably cause.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #47)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 07:22 PM

48. Do you know what the request for the warrant contains?

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #48)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 07:46 PM

51. If you have a point, spit it out. nm

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #51)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 08:02 PM

53. I guess you don't know what the warrant contains.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #53)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 08:18 PM

54. I guess you dont have a point. I dont like guessing games. nm

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #54)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 08:23 PM

56. Doubted your knowledge of the warrant, you talked a big talk but you could not produce evidence

The warrants were not proper, guess you need to leave those decisions to the FISA Court.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #56)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 08:48 PM

58. I read the warrant. It violates both the FISA law and the Constitution. The Constitution, you know

what that is?? It's what you are so willing to give up to live in your denial bubble. Willing to give up your rights to be safe from the terrible terrorists.

But this issue is way bigger than the warrant. How does that fit in your bubble of denial?

I am sure you think that if only we could capture and deal with Snowden the harsher the better, then we can forget this messy crap and crawl back in our bubbles. Too bad, the horses are out of the barn.

The NSA is spying on all Americans in clear violation of both the FISA law and the Constitution (there is that pesky word again). By the way, did you know that the NSA is only supposed to be interested in what happens outside of the country?

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #58)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 09:01 PM

60. You should be really pissed at Snowden for spying on your phone call records anjust might have those

Records in his possession. Where is his warrant? No warrant then he has abused the Fourth Amendment. That must make you really happy, your spy has abused us.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #60)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 12:24 AM

64. How ironic that you would say Snowden didnt have a warrant. He had the protection of the same

warrant you been waving around like it was golden. Snowden was working for a contractor and spying under their direction. Yet they seem to miss any criticism. Only prosecute the foot soldiers, not their lieutenants, or generals.

But again and again, Snowden isnt the issue, it's the NSA and their billions of dollar budget spying on Americans in violation of the FISA law and the Constitution.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #64)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 01:00 AM

72. How ironic Snowden went to a news media to reveal information. If the Fourth Amendment requires a

warrant, did he get one for the information he released, no. Snowden is the issue, he has made himself the issue, he has made himself a criminal. It was not the NSA running out and giving information to foreign news media, it was Snowden. If he wanted to prove he could get this information out he has proven this, is he a criminal for doing so, yes he is. He was not a foot soldier for the NSA who is being picked on, he has placed himself in this position. He was a spy for the cause. The NSA is operating under a warrant and oversight of the FISA court. All the things you are saying about spying on Americans he is guilty of and without a warrant so he has violated the Fourth Amendment.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #72)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 01:55 AM

75. So you think every employee/contractor of the NSA needs a warrant to simply do their job?

Wow. You're really stretching it there. They are acting under orders because of a supposedly legal warrant already, why would Snowden need to get his own warrant?

And btw... I believe even Snowden says he broke the law (not what you are accusing him of though, breaking the law by leaking classified information about the operation itself), if he hasn't said it directly it is clear that he fled for a reason. As Greenwald said in the clip with Gregory, he acted out of conscience, he felt he had an obligation to tell the American people what was going on. Do you know what the term whistleblower means?

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Response to cui bono (Reply #75)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 12:34 PM

96. NSA has a warrant to collect records, when Snowden re harvested the data from NSA then he needed a

warrant to collect the information he stole from the NSA, so without the warrant to collect from the NSA Snowden has violated the Fourth Amendment that you seem to be so upset about. Snowden was acting as his own agent in collecting (stealing) from NSA. He delivered information he had to a foreign news media which is a violation and resulting in him being charged with espionage. It is still espionage if he leaked information about the operation and this is a no brainier. If Snowden acted out of conscience why would he steal or is stealing not a part of his conscience? Stealing does not speak well for his integrity.

I understand quiet well what a whistleblower means. Did you know whistleblowers are excluded from the Whistleblower Act? Maybe Snowden did not know this either but ignorance of the law is not a defense.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #72)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:57 AM

93. His job was to spy on American. That's what Booz Allen does. If you torture and kill him

will you sleep better? For some fascism will be welcomed.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #93)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 12:42 PM

97. His job was not to reveal information of the operation and of the information collected by NSA which

happened to be in accordance with the laws. He is a thief, a spy and apparently from some of the post here he did this intentionally. He is a liar and has sold out perhaps your personal phone call records, does this make you happy. I would sleep better had this scumbag not had diarrhea of the mouth. He has made his bed and now he must lie in it, he did the crime and now he needs to do the time. Any other scumbags who wants to go down the trail of Snowden needs punishment to the fullest extent of the law including Snowden.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #14)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 11:00 AM

16. This is true, the REAL story, as Wilson and Plame state

 

We already knew we were spying. What Snowden revealed was that the system is truly ripe for abuse, like from dirtbags like Snowden. The only way we can secure the nation is with sworn loyalty from dedicated men and women. Snowden broke that oath, ripped us off, and hightailed it off to other countries who have their own spying apparatus to spy on us, handing over information that pretty much fucks us over. Yay, fuck US! Hooray for the other countries!

This is going to play really bad in the swing regions in 2014. 'Obama can't protect us' over and over again. DU will be mined endlessly for all the bad rhetoric to show the Rightwing voters how messed up we are. It will be ugly.

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Response to railsback (Reply #16)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 11:11 AM

19. K & R

Good post.

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Response to railsback (Reply #16)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 11:18 AM

22. Ahhh, I get your point, railsback

We need to kill our freedom in order to save our freedom!

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #22)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 12:57 AM

70. Everyone gave up their 'freedom' as soon as they started handing out their information to everyone

 

You can't seriously expect big corps to protect your 'freedoms' when the dollar is the bottom line.

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Response to railsback (Reply #70)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 02:01 AM

76. No. Handing out your info to corporations for marketing is completely different than

having the govt TAKE your information under a blanket warrant that violates the constitution.

Corporations can still make money off our information without giving it to the govt for free.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #76)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 02:31 AM

81. LOL!

 

The End Of Days when the DU trusts big corporations more than our elected government.

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Response to railsback (Reply #81)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 03:42 AM

84. I didn't say that at all. But I'm sure you know that.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #84)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 12:06 PM

94. Right.

 

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Response to railsback (Reply #16)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 12:49 AM

67. Snowden is so not the point here

Love him or hate him, he ripped open the bandage on a gaping wound that was already there.

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Response to tavalon (Reply #67)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 12:58 AM

71. He exposed a security flaw - himself.

 

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Response to railsback (Reply #71)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 01:00 AM

73. Do you generally consider yourself an intelligent person?

Because an intelligent person would realize when they had missed the point and be able to get back on track.

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Response to tavalon (Reply #73)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 01:03 AM

74. I'm not the one with the intelligence problem here.

 

Nor do I hero worship.

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Response to railsback (Reply #74)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 01:27 PM

100. I don't hero worship and my IQ is in the genius range,

so I'm going to prove it by trying not to cavort with idiots on the internet.

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Response to tavalon (Reply #100)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 01:31 PM

101. Ok, then I'm a genius, too

 

But, unlike Snowden and his 'admirers', I don't run away from a fight.

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Response to railsback (Reply #101)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 01:37 PM

103. This isn't a fight, it's a bullshit game of three card monty

and it has nothing to do with the issue at hand, which is PRISM. Wanna talk about that, we can. Snowden, poor soul, is a distraction and he's played his part and it is done now. He will pay hugely for what he did but that matters not one whit. Because he is the distraction. not the issue.

Care to quit with the obfuscation?

Oh, and I have a life that doesn't include sitting in front of the computer all day so you may not get quick responses from me.

BTW, there are clearly many on the genius level here. You? Not proven. Write an OP that actually contributes to useful dialogue, then perhaps you are a genius rather than a fool. I might even start watching for your OPs. I'm not holding my breath.

I used to tolerate fools in the hopes that there would be something useful in their babble. The noise ratio is too loud nowadays.

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Response to tavalon (Reply #103)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 02:27 PM

104. The 'information' is coming from Snowden

 

who admits he had a pre-planned agenda. He himself has brought motive and accuracy to the forefront.

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Response to railsback (Reply #104)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 10:57 AM

112. Whatever

I was always accurate and had perfectly valid motives when I chose to be a whistleblower, so what does that mean, really? And no, I didn't go through the useless channels. I went through the channels that got the job done. I also managed to never get fingered. And no, my whistleblowing was and is on a much smaller scale. But the hospitals I work at would rather I didn't tell their unfortunate truths. They, because of my son, now get their wish.

Don't get sick. Trust me on this one. There isn't likely a hospital in this nation that is put together with anything other than spit, chewing gum and baling wire, and most are missing a few of those items.

And for the thousandth time, this isn't about the character of Snowden, it's about the truth that came out. It's more precious than gold and maybe, just maybe, we can take back this country. Probably not, because most people don't give a shit, but he gave us a fighting chance. What have you done lately on that front?

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Response to tavalon (Reply #103)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:22 PM

111. +1

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #14)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 07:37 PM

50. This program is incompatible with our Constitution, that is why.

It results in giving the executive a position of metaknowledge about the lives and interests of our members of Congress, their staffs, wives, kids, lovers, business associates to say nothing of the information about all members of the third separate power of government, the judiciary. If you can map a person's electronic communications in this day and age, you know all about their most intimate weaknesses, relationships, etc. and you can control them. Sushi or Italian? The beach or the theatre? Tastes are tools through which people can be predicted and controlled.

In addition, this program harms the rest of us because it chills the exercise of the rights guaranteed in the Constitution.

It conflicts with the constitutional design and therefore, in my view is illegal. This program poses a tremendous danger to our Constitution and our way of life.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #50)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 12:52 AM

68. This program is incompatible with our Constitution.

This program is incompatible with our Constitution. This program is incompatable with our Constitution. This program is incompatable with our Constitution. This program is incompatable with our Constitution. This program is incompatible with our Constitution. This program is incompatable with our Constitution. This program is incompatable with our Constitution. This program is incompatable with our Constitution. This program is incompatible with our Constitution. This program is incompatable with our Constitution. This program is incompatable with our Constitution. This program is incompatable with our Constitution.

No, it's not a glitch, it's honesty, repeated over and over and over until you fools who think otherwise get this stuck like an earworm in your head.

This program is incompatible with our Constitution. This program is incompatable with our Constitution. This program is incompatable with our Constitution. This program is incompatable with our Constitution.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 11:06 AM

17. 911 "over reaction" is a huge understatement.

All this human and resource waste over a band of about 3000 criminals.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #17)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 11:12 AM

20. Is this your estimate of those involved in the "cause"?

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 12:33 PM

23. K&R n/t

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 12:34 PM

25. IT THE SUBCONTRACTORS

That scare me the most.

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Response to cynzke (Reply #25)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 02:37 PM

107. Yes, indeed. And if DU'ers would get over themselves, they'd see this is the angle of attack.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 12:55 PM

26. k and r

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 01:02 PM

27. Thank you for posting this. Rec'd. (nt)

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 01:14 PM

28. K&R!

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 01:18 PM

29. And it's a new multi-billion dollar private industry. That alone


means the surveillance state is now an entrenched power structure. This is the same dynamic that brings us endless wars and expensive planes even the Pentagon doesn't want.

This is one of the great flaws of our political system. Laws are made and enforced based on power, which is largely based on money. This is why existing powerful entities want in on every government service, from prisons to schools to the military.

Once there is a person, or a company, who has money to spend to keep a policy in place, the public interest -- which is what government is supposed to be for -- becomes secondary.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #29)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 01:30 PM

32. Agree...the Privatization scheme makes more room for Mischief and outright Plundering

of Taxpayer Dollars along with Crookery by those who have no one to answer to except their Private Employer...not the US citizens.

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Response to KoKo (Reply #32)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 01:50 PM

35. We don't pass many policies that make rich companies lose money.


That's what Eisenhower was on about with the "Military Industrial Complex." It's not a conspiracy so much as a power dynamic. Lawmakers listen to people toting checkbooks.

It's a lot simpler to take direction from a few rich interests than millions of poor ones.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 01:22 PM

30. "If you build it, they will..."

"abuse it."

We mainly have Bush and Cheney and corrupt Republican "privatize and profit" schemes to thank for building all this, though they've had plenty of help from Democrats. And once it's built it's hard to dismantle even if you want to.

I saw a TV clip on the future of 3-D printing this morning and couldn't help but wonder what kind of living hell this technology may bring--not just plastic guns but bombs and weapons of all sorts without any responsible adult supervision.

Ugh.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 01:27 PM

31. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, muriel volestrangler.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 01:36 PM

33. This thread is fantastic

Kick and recommended!

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 01:48 PM

34. Excellent article, I couldn't agree more ...

Well done, Wilson family!

We definitely need the facts, and we need to have this discussion as a Nation. And I believe we need to bring this stuff back 'in house' i.e. only actual government employees analyze the data and hold the security clearances. The subcontractor crap ... is crap.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 02:29 PM

36. HUGE K & R !!!


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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 06:06 PM

38. "metastasized intelligence-industrial complex"

-- Yottabytes R Us

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 06:19 PM

41. We can hear you now.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 06:27 PM

42. K&R!

Thank you Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 06:29 PM

43. k&r n/t

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 06:44 PM

45. thank you. So much chaos, few opinions I want to focus on

But these are the people I want to hear from

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 07:02 PM

46. Has anybody come up with a reasonable solution

to all this?

"To date, there is no proof that the government has used this information to pursue and harass US citizens based on their political views. There are no J Edgar Hoover-like "enemy lists" … yet. But it is not so difficult to envision a scenario where any of us has a link, via a friend of a friend, to someone on the terrorist watchlist. What then? You may have no idea who this person is, but a supercomputer in Fort Meade (or, soon, at the Utah Data Center near Salt Lake City) will have made this connection. And then you could have some explaining to do to an over-zealous prosecutor."

The question I'd like to see answered, or at least posed in a way that doesn't preclude a reasonable discussion, is how do we protect people's Fourth Amendment rights at the same time we try to guarantee there are no future successful attacks on the scale of 9-11? Because should such an attack happen--and on a Democrat's watch--the "soft on terrorism" charge will haunt Democrats for decades, just as the "soft on communism" and "who lost China?" charges cost Democrats dearly in the 1950s,'60s, '70s and 80s.

If anyone could come up with a way forward, you would think it would be Wilson and Plame.

Eventually we'll have to work through the initial shock and outrage and come up with an actual strategy for dealing with the "intelligence-industrial complex." I'd love to see some discussion of how to make that happen.

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #46)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 02:51 AM

83. There is absolutely no evidence that PRISM prevented any attacks at all.

Most attacks, that were foiled, were by tips from the terrorists own friends and relatives who didn't want them to kill people. The rest were by chance, like the guys who had expired tags, then the cop saw guns in the car. Cointelpro operations don't count because those attack would never happen without investigators own manipulations. But that is a long discussion and I won't get into it.

The way law enforcement worked before was that some evidence must be brought before a judge, in writing, to show that investigators have probable cause for a warrant to permit more invasive searching. The reason everything is in writing, with the investigators names attached to their own words, is so that there may be some form of accountability. If abuse is alleged, at least the line of reasoning can be reviewed by the public.

In the end, there can be no guarantee against terrorism. One thing that would help, is if America would act in good faith towards the people of the world. In the past, and still today, the government would just blindly and consistently take the side that will be more beneficial to corporate profits in any conflict rather than attempting any real mediation or making any stipulations about human rights.

Alternatively, we can just shake our warmachine around hap-haphazardly until we can no support it and lose everything...becoming yet another failed empire in history's long list. Seems like a lot of politicians favor that route.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 07:52 PM

52. Agreed. So why are we defending corporate persons from the questions we need to ask Snowden & others

My answer to that questions is that there are those who do not want PO to ask those questions, because PO comes especially well armed to that Socratic effort, because of all of those horrible Right wing corporatists that he has included in his administration.

What we have here is Barack Obama the ultimate troll.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 08:20 PM

55. K&R

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 08:28 PM

57. Yeah, you probably think The PATRIOT Act is used to go after drug users, too.

Oh, wait.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #57)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 09:40 PM

62. k and fucking r

cause the real terrorists are running dispensaries in Orange County!!!!!!!!

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 09:45 PM

63. "unless we establish ground rules ... national security interests and potential political chicanery"

"... unless we establish ground rules and barriers between authentic national security interests and potential political chicanery."

Potential my ass! We can not even imagine what has been going on since all the Bushies were placed in these million jobs!

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 02:07 AM

77. Oh shit better throw Plame in Gitmo!

SHE GONE ROGUE!!!

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 02:16 AM

78. Seriously I want to throw this in the face of every single person...

who compared the outing of Plame to Manning's and later, Snowden's whistle-blowing.


Toss that line in the garbage with the rest of the refuse. Forever.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 02:24 AM

80. Plame/Wilson article

K&R.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 03:54 AM

85. The Corporate-Government Corridors of Smoke and Mirrors

Agents, Double Agents, Agents Provocateurs. Even those on the Inside don't know it all. Wonder who Snowden is working for or, maybe, who he thinks he is working for.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 05:56 AM

90. Valerie Plame worked for the CIA for 20 years.

From 1985 to 2005.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 08:01 AM

91. What I find rather amazing...

Is actually that out of 1.4 million people with security clearance, there are so few whistleblowers. I hope it's not a precise estimate of the proportion of people with a conscience in the population.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 08:43 AM

92. Several things here.

The surveillance agencies have grown out of their boundaries. Mercenary companies have been formed to do this so-called spying and operated by those whose only interest is money. Mercenaries. Always the bottom feeders. They are the scum of the earth. Money from the highest bidder and thus problem one. Who is the next highest bidder?

The line has been made so hazy as to when surveillance is truly needed and not needed that it difficult to know anymore. What we have instead of real "spy" work is a bunch of over paid computer people saving every bit of information they can collect and then store it in a very large computer system for later use. I think that defines metadata. More information from metadata than actual phone messages and emails. And all this is done without proper constitutional guarantees of freedom from unreasonable search and seizure. Evidence is needed that warrants have been obtained to collect information.

The numbers of people working in the intelligence community (is that an oxymoron) has bloomed to many millions. And many, as I said before, are mercenary scum. So, with millions of people in the intelligence community, we should feel safe knowing that all kind of terrorist acts have been halted. Like the Boston bombing? Or the Cole explosion? Or the embassy attacks? Or the biggy, 9/11? So what terrorists have we stopped. All we near is we have stopped them.

I don't feel safer. I feel like the terrorists are the US government spies. There need be a solution and a reduction in the forces who claim to be "the intelligence community". And what we are finding out is that even our elected officials at the highest level either do not know what is going on or are being misinformed about what is going on. It is as if there is a government within the government.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 12:15 PM

95. The "media" purposely

focus on the distractions (girlfriend, etc..) to take the focus off of the real story...we are without privacy.

IO that is why TPTB carried out (or allowed it to be) 9-11..

To deny America is a fascist country is to ignore the truth.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 01:23 PM

99. I worry for some of my fellow DUers

Unless they are actually acrobats, this one is gonna hurt. They've been putting themselves into very pretzel like positions to try to deny what has come to the surface again, unfortunately this time under Obama's watch. I don't think Cirque Du Soleil acrobats could manage this one.

The trickle has become a stream and looks destined to be a flood. And since it's the only thing that will save this Empire, then I say, let's swim.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 01:33 PM

102. Ripe enough to smell bad and draw flies.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:21 PM

110. The NSA gets punked

Last edited Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:13 PM - Edit history (1)

and the response is to INCREASE the amount of network entanglement between the agencies and corporations-- and we are to believe it is even more secure because there is infinitely more data.... to be punked again in the future.

Punishment of a few leakers cannot possibly be enough, so the whole citizenry must suffer and lose privacy. I get it now.

Skynet is up for grabs!! Lets party! And while we're at it, tell me again why we bother with avatars. Life is a cartoon.

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