Most people with common sense are deeply suspicious of Michael Hastings' death.

[reformist2]

Not only do I believe this to be true, I suspect most of you are in this boat as well.

May as well say so, and have discussion thread titles that reflect this, instead of letting others frame the debate.

[Cooley Hurd]

1. ...when his toxicology reports are made public, I'll comment.

...until then, I just want the authorities to perform a thorough investigation.

[WovenGems]

53. Good

That's being reasonable and someone with common sense is never reasonable.

[Cooley Hurd]

158. If anything...

I'm reasonable.

I spent the better part of the early 2000's debating bizarre 9/11 CT's - implosions, missiles, 7WTC. To quote my hero, John Lennon:

I've had enough of watching scenes
Of schizophrenic, ego-centric, paranoiac, prima-donnas
All I want is the truth now
Just gimme some truth

[SidDithers]

81. Even it's clean...

4:00 in the morning, maybe he just fell asleep at the wheel. It's been known to happen.

Sid

[Cooley Hurd]

151. Of course such things happen...

...but it doesn't excuse the investigating agencies from doing their job. Any investigation should, first and foremost, take into account that he had enemies and rec'd death threats in the course of his career.

If any investigation leads to the conclusion that this was just a terrible accident, so be it. But they really need to investigate this a bit further than they would if Joe Schmoe was in a similar accident. Joe Schmoe doesn't take on 4-star generals as part of his job. Michael did...

[justiceischeap]

143. My thinking is this...

One of 3 things could have happened...

1) He was blotto. He apparently has some DUI's under his belt.
2) He was just being reckless. Sometimes that happens.
3) It was suicide.

Not a conspiracy theory in site in my mind.

[Cooley Hurd]

149. If you don't factor in the fact he was high-profile and made many powerful enemies...

...then your objectivity is suspect.

This is the first I've heard of "apparent" DUI's. Do you have a source for your assertion?

[zappaman]

150. There is a source for his DUIs...his book.

http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2013/06/michael_hastings_crash_engine_flew_speeding_recovery.php

The writer does have a history with alcohol and drugs, however. In his first book, I Lost My Love in Baghdad: A Modern War Story, Hastings says that he crashed a car in a drunk driving accident when he was 19.

And in this True/Slant piece from 2009 Hastings describes himself as a "a recovering drunk/addict/screw-up."

In another True/Slant piece he says, "I have smoked crack."

[Cooley Hurd]

153. "...when he was 19."

He was 33 at the time of his death.

The last two Presidents of the United States have admitted to cocaine use (which is the main ingredient of crack-cocaine).

[zappaman]

154. You asked about his DUIs

I answered.

[Cooley Hurd]

156. Thank you...

...and I offered a solid rebuttal.

[dlwickham]

152. but it was the authorities!!!!!!!!!!!

sorry-I'm just a bit tired of these conspiracy theorists on here

sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and sometimes an accident is just an accident

[Cooley Hurd]

155. I am not forwarding a CT here...

I am simply hoping for a thorough investigation as to why he wrecked his car and was killed as a result.

[dlwickham]

162. I know you're not

but you're one of the few it seems

[Cooley Hurd]

166. Case in point: the aviation accident that killed Senator Wellstone...

I was deeply suspicious when I first heard of it (given his stature and the timing, suspicion was warranted). But, being an aviation professional (before going into IT), I wanted a thorough investigation.

The investigation revealed that the pilots of the aircraft flew into known icing conditions, and were ill-equipped (inexperienced) to deal with it.

It was a tragic accident.

[99Forever]

183. My thoughts exactly.

That "the usual suspects" rushed forward declaring that "there is nothing to see here" certainly raises my suspicion level.

[geek tragedy]

2. No, rumor mongering unfounded conspiracy theories is not a hallmark of common sense

But, I agree that the notion that the government assassinated him is more widely believed than it is spoken here, due to the ban on crazy talk.

[sabrina 1]

6. When the people trust their government it is likely that people will be less suspicious of

them.

The fact that so many are questioning this tragic death is merely a reflection of the lost trust Americans had in their government. There's nothing YOU can do about it, no matter how many comments you make here. It is a sign of the times.

[geek tragedy]

7. The Paranoid Style of American Politics was written in 1964.

This is embedded in American political culture on both the left and the right.

What did Bill Clinton do in office to cause the speculation that he had dozens of political opponents assassinated, in addition to VInce Foster?

[sabrina 1]

16. Better question, 'what did Reagan, Nixon, Bush Sr, Bush Jr, Cheney et al do?

[muriel_volestrangler]

18. Are you saying you consider Obama closer to Reagan, Nixon, the Bushes and Cheney than to Clinton?

I certainly hope not. That would be the mark of someone who's given up thinking.

[sabrina 1]

45. I believe I said exactly what I intended to say. Go read it again if you are having a problem

understanding it. It IS written in plain English not really open to much interpretation, although you sure made a wild attempt to do so.

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. No, I really can't interpret it other than as I did

In a thread about accusations that there is something suspicious about Hastings' death, you reply to a post that asked what Clinton did to deserve the accusations about Foster. You say it's better to ask what Republicans did. That implies you see the current situation as more like what happened under Republicans than under the last Democratic president. The only interpretation I can see is that you think Obama's behaviour is closer to to Republicans than to Clinton, and you'd rather than DUers think of him in the same way.

[sabrina 1]

80. That's funny that you come to that conclusion. Since my comment, properly interpreted by another

DUer right here, meant the exact opposite. But people tend to see what they want to see, even when it isn't there.

Here, let me explain. IF I wanted to compare Obama to any of those Republicans I would not be shy about doing so. Anyone who knows me, knows that. I say what I think and don't much care what people think of what I say since I generally don't say anything without having a reason for doing so. So, if I had intended to say 'Obama is just like Reagan, Nixon, Bush, trust me, I would have said so.

[muriel_volestrangler]

84. So why did you bring them up?

You haven't tried to explain why you did. A DUer compares the current situation to the false accusations about Clinton, and you say they should ask about Republicans instead. You want the questions asked about Obama that should be asked about Republicans.

[sabrina 1]

87. See comment #57 by someone who actually read what I said. I can't help you anymore than that.

[muriel_volestrangler]

90. #57 makes no sense, and explains nothing

#7 was pointing out the similarities between false accusations by the paranoid, or those who encourage them, against Clinton, and against Obama. When you bring up the Republicans, and say that's a better question to ask, you are saying that the current situation is closer to that under those Republicans. You either think those accusations were also paranoid, but want for some reason to group Obama with them, or you think they were justified - in which case you're putting Obama in the group of "presidents about whom questions of gross abuse of power should be asked".

Why did you think grouping Obama with Clinton was something we shouldn't do?

[sabrina 1]

93. Can't help you. I guess for you, had I known you were going to read my comment but of course I did

not and decide to look for some ulterior motive, I would have spelled out everything in minute detail. Then again, probably not. Thankfully it wasn't necessary for anyone else, post #57 got it without the need for spelling it all out. That comment understood my comment and I in turn, understood that comment. That you are so confused, is not my problem.

[graham4anything]

107. Yesterday, someone else very subtly compared the President to Nixon.It's becoming their meme.

[PufPuf23]

145. POTUS Obama has self-identified and acts as a 1980s Republican

I was a student at Cal when Reagan was governor of CA.

I had worked for the Feds age 16 to age 32 and quit under Reagan.

Why? Reagan declared war / scapegoated an outstanding university and a then outstanding agency.

If Keystone is approved, POTUS Obama will be the worst environmental POTUS since Reagan.

Nixon was a very good environmental POTUS and so was Carter.

There is a frequent current word salad poster at DU that lumps Obama with LBJ with one of the four greatest POTUS. Confusing

The New Deal / Great Society / War on Poverty are polar opposites of the neo-liberal economic policies championed by POTUS Obama.

I hope We the People and the Democratic Party do better in 2016 as I with grief consider post 2008 as institutionalizing abuses of the GWB years and a weakening of the Democratic Party by those that embrace neoliberalism in domestic and foreign policy over a better World. War and Poverty and Great Society would be a much more productive and ecology friendly direction than War on Terror and corporations, financial institutions, politicians, and ultra-wealthy or connected being immune to Law as well as humane decency.

[muriel_volestrangler]

146. Forget it

Jeez, the man has no idea of PR, has he?

[PufPuf23]

157. I want a better World. I want the Democratic Party to be better and the best.

If you look, one can find POTUS Obama speaking regards to his 1980s GOP worldview on youtube.

POTUS Obama has been provided some of the best PR ever.

I feel bad that this young journalist Hastings has died.

A War on Poverty and a War for Ecologic Health of the planet given the condition and extent of human population are "good" wars.

[muriel_volestrangler]

164. Yeah, my 'forget it' came after I found the time he talked about the 80s Republican thing

If he's going to say such damn fool things, I'm not going to try and defend him on it.

[geek tragedy]

19. Same as was done under Johnson, Kennedy, Eisenhower, Truman, FDR. nt

[sabrina 1]

46. So Democrats are as bad as Republicans then?

[geek tragedy]

64. Historically, yes. FDR was the worst civil liberties President of the 20th century.

Runner up: Woodrow Wilson.

Common factor: war.

[sabrina 1]

83. Really? You consider FDR to be worse on Civil Liberties than Bush/Cheney? What laws were passed

by FDR such as the Patriot Act eg? Or do you agree with those Bush/Cheney anti-Constitutional laws? How many people did FDR kidnap from other countries and place in torture chambers here and in secret locations around the world? Of course they were 'just terrorist Muslims' so I guess that's okay right?

And Reagan, know anything about Central and South America under Reagan? Assuming you do, can you provide any examples of FDR policies that come anywhere close to Reagan's?

Nixon, in what way was FDR worse than Nixon, know anything about Vietnam, spying on Americans etc?

I'm not at all surprised by your response, not in the least btw. You never fail to prove me right and I appreciate that.

[geek tragedy]

86. FDR established racist concentration camps, opposed anti-lynching legislation, and

his DoJ didn't convict a single person of lynching. New Deal programs were segregated, as was the military.

It was under FDR that the Tuskegee syphillis experiment was started targeting blacks, and it was under FDR that it was exported to Guatemala.

[Tarheel_Dem]

98. Careful gt, you're ruining the great romanticized, whitewashed version of FDR. Don't you just love

revisionists? You've just nailed it!

[geek tragedy]

108. every President is a product of his time and other political actors

except Obama.

[Tarheel_Dem]

115. !!!

[zappaman]

118. Great post!

So many think they know history...

[geek tragedy]

121. I liked this line:

You never fail to prove me right and I appreciate that.

I'm guessing she won't come back to dine on those words.

[zappaman]

128. Some posters have a habit of making things up

and then going away when shown to be wrong.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3056816



Not to worry, they'll be back soon telling us how we are not true Democrats.

[sabrina 1]

140. FDR's Record on Civil Rights:

The demonization of FDR continues. You got the right wing anti-FDR talking points down pat.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt's_record_on_civil_rights

FDR's Record on Civil Rights

In June 1941, Roosevelt issued Executive Order 8802, which created the Fair Employment Practices Committee (FEPC). It was the most important federal move in support of the rights of African-Americans between Reconstruction and the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The President's order stated that the federal government would not hire any person based on their race, color, creed, or national origin. The FEPC enforced the order to ban discriminatory hiring within the federal government and in corporations that received federal contracts.

Millions of blacks and women achieved better jobs and better pay as a result. The war brought the race issue to the forefront. The Army and Navy had been segregated since the Civil War. But by 1940 the African-American vote had largely shifted from Republican to Democrat, and African-American leaders like Walter White of the NAACP and T. Arnold Hill of the Urban League had become recognized as part of the Roosevelt coalition.

In June 1941, at the urging of A. Philip Randolph, the leading African-American trade unionist, Roosevelt signed an executive order establishing the Fair Employment Practice Commission and prohibiting discrimination by any government agency, including the armed forces. In practice the services, particularly the Navy and the Marines, found ways to evade this order — the Marine Corps remained all-white until 1943. In September 1942, at Eleanor's instigation, Roosevelt met with a delegation of African-American leaders, who demanded full integration into the forces, including the right to serve in combat roles and in the Navy, the Marine Corps and the United States Army Air Forces. Roosevelt agreed, but then did nothing to implement his promise. It was left to his successor, Harry S. Truman, to fully desegregate the armed forces.

Bush only slaughtered over one million Muslims and established racist concentration camps all over the world, including on Guantanamo Bay.

Hey, if you like what Bush did so much, why didn't you vote for him?

FDR has been and will continue to be criticized harshly and rightfully for his treatment of Japanese Americans. It was horrendous.

But his policies lifted the poor, minorities and the elderly out of poverty and he pushed for equal rights legislation at a time when the country itself was opposed to it.

No president has been perfect by any means. Presidents like FDR began the long, slow process towards equal rights for all Americans.

But if you prefer Bush, Reagan and Jr's Civil Rights policies to those of Democrats, that is your choice. And if you think that Muslims are less entitled to equal rights than Americans, so it's okay to slaughter and demonize them, that too is your choice. But as I said before, to get a more balanced view of the differences between Democratic Presidents and Republican Presidents you need to say away from those right wing sources you posted recently.

[geek tragedy]

141. Which of the things I wrote about FDR were (a) untrue or (b) a criticism from the right? nt

[sabrina 1]

147. What in my post regarding FDR's record on Civil Rights is not true?

You are confusing me with blind partisans who can't tolerate any criticism of a Democratic President. Being someone who has criticized EVERY Democrat whose policies stray from the Democratic Party's platform on the issues, FDR on the internment of Japanese Americans, Clinton on NAFTA, on Welfare Reform, on Glass Steagal and Obama on continuing Bush Policies, your attempt at a 'gotcha' on a Democratic President was bound to fail.

I am a Democrat who is not blind to the faults of our party but who views the other party as much, much worse on Civil Rights, on Foreign Policy (until recently) on the poor, and on education (also until recently)

You will not find me among those who choose to be blinded by partisanship. I am for improving OUR party, on getting rid of the right wing contingency that has attached itself to our party and sending them back to their own party which is more suited to their positions on policies.

So I'm not sure at all why you thought I might not be familiar with the entirety of FDR's record which even considering his failures, is still far superior to the Republicans who followed him. Don't you agree? Or are you saying that Republicans are a better choice and we would have been better off without FDR and all of his policies?

I just can't figure out what your point is frankly, although what I'm getting from your comments is 'FDR stinks' and I'm not getting much from you on your opinion of our last several Republican presidents.

However, you do need to stop reading those right wing sources you read. I've suggested that to you before. They tend to be short on facts and selective on criticism of our presidents.

[jberryhill]

106. Holy shit - FDR LOCKED UP every Japanese American on the West Coast

110,000 Americans were locked up by FDR.

[Tarheel_Dem]

117. Reality bites, don't it? A truly shameful & disgusting episode in this country's history.

[jberryhill]

119. Seeing in monochrome bites

Our system corrects for these kinds of things, but at a deliberate pace.

One of the people locked up, of course, was George Takei - now a happily married gay man who is apparently having his civil rights DESTROYED, I tell ya, by the Obama administration.

[zappaman]

123. And he even wrote a musical about it!

http://www.allegiancemusical.com/cast-member/george-takei

[Tarheel_Dem]

124. "Our system corrects for these kinds of things, but at a deliberate pace".

[sabrina 1]

136. HOLY SHIT! BUSH Slaughtered, tortured and locked up over one million Muslims!!!

And he got laws passed that violated the US Constitution right here in the US!!!

And he put over 100,000 AMERICANS on a 'no-fly' list, maybe more but it's all SECRET so we don't even know!!

Wait,

Muslims = Lesser Human Beings!

Americans = Superior Human Beings!!

OMG! I thought ALL human beings deserved the same equal rights!!

Thanks for today's version of 'reeducation'! And for never disappointing!

FDR, the worst president ever!

Well, at least according to the Right!

[jberryhill]

137. Do you want to talk about how many Europeans and Japanese FDR killed?

The European death toll from WWII is in the range of 20 million.

Your comment was about "civil rights", which is normally understood to refer to domestic liberties.

FDR's wartime casualty count far exceeds any other president.

[sabrina 1]

144. I've read history. Have you become anti-war now? I am for the most part, because I know

what happens in war. Do you think the US should have stayed out of WW11? FDR was very supportive of Jews, did you know that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt's_record_on_civil_rights

The Holocaust and attitudes toward Jews

Some of his closest political associates, such as Felix Frankfurter, Bernard Baruch and Samuel I. Rosenman, were Jewish. He appointed Henry Morgenthau, Jr. as the first Jewish Secretary of the Treasury and appointed Frankfurter to the Supreme Court. Historian Doris Kearns Goodwin cites statistics showing that FDR’s high level executive appointments favored Jews (15% of his top appointments at a time when Jews represented 3% of the U.S. population) which subjected Roosevelt to frequent criticism. The August, 1936 edition of "The White Knight" published an article referring to the New Deal as the “Jew Deal.” Pamphlets appeared such as "What Every Congressman Should Know" in 1940 (featuring a sketch of the Capitol building with a Star of David atop its dome) that proclaimed that the Jews were in control of the American government. Financier and FDR confidant Bernard Baruch was called the “Unofficial President” in the anti-Semitic literature of the time. The periodical Liberation, for example, accused FDR of loading his government with Jews.

Civil Rights doesn't stop at our borders, last I heard. Especially if our government is lying us into wars with people who did nothing to us and then murdering and torturing them based on lies. That is OUR responsibility if it is done in our name.

Did you support Bush lying us into war in Iraq btw? I'm not clear on your position on Bush. I am clear on your position on Democrat FDR, though.

[Octafish]

159. That must be why Wall Street plotted to overthrow him.

Or else it was the progressive policies he enacted.

Ask Smedley Butler.

[geek tragedy]

167. He was a great President, with deep flaws. nt

[Raster]

57. APPLAUSE! APPLAUSE! APPLAUSE!

Thank you! The bullshit about Clinton, was just that, BULLSHIT.

However Ronnie the Raygun, the Bush* crime family and Dracula Cheney* deserve every bit of suspicion, speculation and insinuation. Their hands drip with innocent blood. Criminals against humanity all.

[JackRiddler]

71. JFK was given a public execution in 1963.

[grasswire]

25. when the government stops lying, the people might have more trust. nt

[stopbush]

20. Bingo! We have a winner!

BTW - as long as most people ignore the evidence and continue to believe the crazed CTs about the JFK killing, they will remain predisposed to believe that our government goes around assassinating highly visible Americans as SOP.

[GoneFishin]

170. WTF.

[savalez]

44. Well put. n/t

[NightWatcher]

3. Maybe he was too busy looking over his shoulder to watch where he was going

And ran into trouble.

Or maybe he just crashed. Thousands do it every day.

[jberryhill]

109. Why didn't the witnesses see anyone chasing him?

[zappaman]

112. Nor did the video, but...

You can't see if there is an alien spacecraft above him, so we can't rule that out...

http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2013/06/michael_hastings_red_light_video_speeding.php

[NightWatcher]

120. I was speaking figuratively not literally

Guy crashes car. Guy dies. There's no cover, conspiracy, black helicopters, aliens...

[GoneFishin]

4. I am waiting to hear about the stories he was working on. If he was about to embarrass someone

powerful then it is definitely going to get my attention.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

34. He could have video of the CIA director in bed with underaged goats

but the accident could still be an actual accident.

[GoneFishin]

180. Yeah. And he could have been investigating toilet paper thefts from public schools, but still

been assassinated for pissing off powerful people.

I will be more intrigued if he was working on a story that provided a clear motive.
No means, no motive, no opportunity, no problem.

Nice try.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

181. Yes, but those positing assassination do so in spite of evidence not because of it.

As if murdering a respected and accomplished journalist makes things quieter.

[GoneFishin]

184. You are asserting then, that there is proof to the contrary. If that were true I would be ok with it

"As if murdering a respected and accomplished journalist makes things quieter."

But I do assert that hypothetically, killing a journalist who makes inconvenient revelations about the powerful will send a very strong message to other journalists who contemplate doing the same.

I just hope that the investigation is thorough and logical. If it is, then great. If however there are chain of custody issues with car, I will wonder about that. If there are jurisdictional turf wars over control of the investigation, I will wonder about that. If there were strangers on the scene before the first responders, whose IDs are unknown, I will wonder about that.

If not, then no problem.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

185. Absence of evidence of foul play will be proof of a cover-up to those that want to believe.

[GoneFishin]

186. Maybe. I can't speak for those people. If the investigation is SOP, clean, and uninterfered with,

then I will be ok with it.

If there are signs of tampering, or interference from the outside then I will wonder what the hell is going on.

[quinnox]

5. I have an open mind but, from what I have read recently on DU, it is very possibly an accident

in my opinion. That said, I am very interested in the investigation and final results of what conclusions they come to. There are certainly some elements of suspicion.

[stopbush]

21. And if the evidence shows that it was just an accident it will only fuel the CTists' beliefs

that "the cover-up is spreading."

Logic and facts have little sway over people with one foot firmly planted in fantasyland.

[whatchamacallit]

8. Impossible! The government has never killed anyone it didn't have to!

...

[onenote]

9. Based on your saying so?

My common sense tells me to question your statement.

[nobodyspecial]

10. Love the phrasing on this

to insult everyone who does not agree with you. If you don't believe how I do -- even before all of the evidence and facts have been pieced together -- you lack common sense.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

32. All right-thinking people know this.

[nobodyspecial]

40. Umm, no

Thinking people wait for all of the information to come in, sort through the facts and make rational decisions based on facts and evidence. Thinking people do NOT leap to conclusions based on speculation or conclusions that fit their preconceived framework.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

42. Actually, I was agreing with you and taunting the OP

Or maybe I'm in psychological denial.

[jberryhill]

110. Anyone who would say that is an idiot

[Marblehead]

11. the tranny was

found laying on the road 50 feet before the accident, that bugs me.

[msanthrope]

38. I had to read your post a few times...I thought you were using a slur! nt

[pnwmom]

12. Most people? Ninety percent or more have probably never even heard of Michael Hastings.

You spend too much time on DU if you think we are "most people."

[zappaman]

13. My common sense says

he was speeding. So do witnesses.
My common sense also tells me that hitting a tree at 100 mph is going to hurt you and your car more than the tree.
My common sense also tells me there are many accidents on this road. I drive it every day and it is also easy to speed.
My common sense wonders what your common sense actually is since it doesn't seem very sensible in this case.

[stopbush]

27. It's easier for people to believe that their "heroes" were offed by some nefarious agency

than to embrace the truth that their heroes are just people, and that all people can do stupid and dangerous things.

It's hard for people who hold Hastings up as a hero to contemplate that Mr Hastings' speeding showed little regard for his own life or the lives of others. Easier to think some evil person wanted him dead and acted upon that want than to believe Hastings' own actions caused his death.

What's sad is that a seemingly large number of DUers immediately jump into the CT quagmire whenever someone of note dies prematurely.

[MADem]

37. People also make assumptions that their heroes are just like them...well, because...

But no one knows the political affiliation of Mister Hastings. He may have been a (gasp) Republican. Of course, with all the Obamahate happening in these parts lately, that would probably fuel a conspiracy theory rather than tamp it down.

I know he liked women who were comfortable in GOP political circles. His late fiancee, the one who worked for the NGO in Baghdad, and who did public relations for Air America, was also a PR flack for Jane Swift, Republican Governor of Massachusetts (she fleeted up to the job from LTGOV, and was bigfooted out of running for the GOP nomination by Mitt Romney, FWIW).

His wife, who delivered that eloquent smackdown to Geraldo, used to work for the Bush administration, and she also worked for Condi Rice during Condi's SecState days.

No one "knows" this guy. They liked his "in yer face" reporting style, bridge-burning though it was, because it was tough and honest and refreshing. But they don't know what his views were on the issues of the day, everything from gun ownership to abortion to public school funding. We only know him from a few articles on very narrow subjects.

It's a shame he's dead, but it's premature in the extreme to start looking for a "murderer" who "set him up" and "faked a car accident."

If someone were going to do that, the best time to do it would have been during the day with lots of witnesses.

[JDPriestly]

89. The fact that so many people look for a criminal motive

and a bad guy every time something unexplained or out of the ordinary happens is more troubling to me and indicates to me serious problems in our society than the details of all the theories.

It seems that we don't trust the media to tell us the truth. We feel free to make things up.

And, indeed, the media does lie to us very often. So do the authorities. And since we don't get straight stories, I always figure we are free to make up our own explanations.

I am reminded of the very young child whose kindergarten teacher decided that it was not good for children to lie to them about the kindergarten Santa Claus. So she invited someone to come into the kindergarten classroom in his street clothes and put on his Santa Clause costume in front of the children. The children were a little stunned but happy to get the treats he handed out. On the way home, one little girl looked somber and reached numbly out for her mother's hand and after a long silence, and staring ahead said, "It wasn't the real Santa Claus."

The little girl became a mathematician -- a really good one. There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to figure out the truth when you feel you have been lied to. But you have to keep an open mind and pay attention and discard a mistaken theory when an idea that is more likely the truth is presented.

I have utterly no opinion about this situation, but I find all the theories about what might have happened to be very interesting. So far, I don't think it is the real Santa Claus.

[OilemFirchen]

94. Case in point:

"I just don't see someone driving that recklessly in a residential area, and what looks like a 2-way street. Some punk maybe but not this guy with the importance of what he was doing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023051146#post16

[zappaman]

95. I addressed that crap post already

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023051146#post69

[OilemFirchen]

105. Indeed you did.

And quite effectively, I might add.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

33. What if it could be shown the government

planted the tree?

[Scurrilous]

14. Common sense says speeding car + running lights + hitting a tree + 4:30 AM = drugs/alcohol/fatigue.

Because that's commonly the explanation.

[bunnies]

17. ^^ this ^^ nt

[RebelOne]

59. Gotta agree with that.

I will be awaiting the coroner's report to see if he was on drugs or drinking.

[Tarheel_Dem]

102. As usual. Nailed it!

[Egalitarian Thug]

15. In this case it seems he was either suicidal or just stupid. If you live in LA, sooner or later you

are going to see something similar to the eye witness accounts of this accident.

I saw a lowered Honda Civic take out an empty flat-bed semi-trailer on the SB 170. He was going in excess of 100 mph and hit the trailer so hard it broke the rear axle. He went airborne and the car exploded when it flew into the New Jersey barrier a couple hundred yards down the freeway. It was eerily like a scene out of a movie.

Less dramatic, I've regularly seen people flying down the 134/101 during rush hour, passing on the shoulders, in the median, cutting over into the on-ramps, just being completely insane with no regard for their safety or that of the other people unfortunate enough to be on the road with them. I came to call the west valley "the land of angry white people".

[Smarmie Doofus]

22. Agreed.

The way some people here react to the expression of healthy suspicion that is called for by the circumstances as we know them to be right now ... makes me wonder who the real "conspiracy nuts" are.

If there's nothing to it... that will become apparent in time.

Since there is no shared confidence ( understandably) in any of the national security state agencies ( LAPD<FBI>NSA> and the rest of the alphabet soup) that might be involved in providing an official version of events it will ultimately be left to independent journalists to sort it out satisfactorily.

That will take a while. Maybe forever; but at least a while.

I'd like to know what if anything Mr. Hastings' family /s.o./ friends/ associates have to say. Seems to me that's more significant right now than what may or may not have shown up on a stationary video camera allegedly a few blocks away.

[GoneFishin]

171. Yep. It's a riot to read the posts mocking anyone who thinks there is room for suspicion.

But then they go on to make up their own theories, based on nothing but speculation, asserting that whatever happened, it was definitely his own fault.

Sometimes an accident is just an accident. Sometimes it is not.

Let's see what information leaks out in the next 3 to 6 months.

[Enrique]

23. Cenk Uygur had a good comment about this

something like, it's crazy to claim for sure it was a conspiracy, it's also crazy to say there was nothing strange about the crash.

I personally would let his friends and family take the lead. His wife for example, and his friends, they seem like the kind of people that would want to get to the bottom of anything fishy.

[magellan]

35. +1

His friends also seem like the kind of people who have the resources to get to the bottom of it if they're unsatisfied with the official story.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. I will put it to you this way

being suspicious is important in this case... that said, it could have been an accident.

I will add this though, if it was not... I doubt we will know.

Certain things that raise my hackles.

Where the trannie was found, how far the engine flew (granted two of the suports were sheared in the crash at least), and how fiery this was.

If this was purely mechanical failure we need to know as well, new vehicle... failures do happen... and a recall might be in order.

So there are many reasons to WANT a real investigation... but if this was who he feared... you will never hear about it. And yes, shit like this happens in other places around the world. Some of the tactcis we taught them.

Suffice it to say, he did write that he had been warned in the past... so there is that.

As to most people... in reality most people know about the NBA games, and the latest on the tv, and sports. Most people have a hard time with actual news. The comentary from Jon Oliver yesterday with the Paula Dean \ Treasury bit was just damn on point, and true.

Most people will know of the flap with Paula Dean... this... who is Hastings will be the first question.

[Marrah_G]

26. I hate to say it, but I AM suspicious

Sadly we may never know the truth

[HooptieWagon]

28. Occam's Razor, people.

The simplest answer is most likely the correct one.
While an assasination is possible, it has a low probability. It's also possible he was attacked by extra-terrestrials, but the probability is so low its ignored. Focus on the most probable, and there you will likely find your answer.
I'm sure this will fall on deaf CTists ears, though. They have already decided on an answer, and are cherry-picking "facts" to support it...rather than keeping an open mind to all posible answers, and let the evidence point the way to the most likely.

[aquart]

111. You put an attack by ETs on the same level as planned assassination?

Because no nosy journalists have ever been murdered just as no ETs have ever attacked our planet?

Louis Gohmert logic?

[HooptieWagon]

127. I did not rank the degree of probabilities.

But I will do so now.
Probability of ET attack...so low it can be ignored.
Probability of assasination...low, not so low as can be ignored, but much lower probabilty of other possibilities.
Probability of mechanical failure...low. Newer car, no history of UA in Mercedes, Easy to bring car to safe stop.
Probability of medical condition...medium. Any history? Autopsy results?
Probability of reckless driving...high. Driving record?
Probabilty of driving under influence...high. Past drug and/or alcohol abuse? Recent whereabouts?

There is no reason to think LE won't do a thorough investigation. And there is no reason to believe LE is in on a conspiracy. There IS an on-going accident investigation, results will be made public when its complete. It will probably be ignored by CTs because concluded facts won't fit agenda.

[GoneFishin]

172. Well, at least you are keeping an open mind about it.

[HooptieWagon]

173. Right. It will be a few weeks until toxicology reports are in.

No point in jumping to conclusions before investigation is complete and reported. CTs who think he was assasinated will look foolish if it turns out he had bac of .20 and cocaine in him.
We just have to wait and see. If report comes out, and it appears to have been sloppy investigation, thats the time to raise a ruckus. Doing so beforehand is just being the boy who cried "wolf".

[Cleita]

29. I'm waiting for more information, too, before I comment.

However, since I'm familiar with that area that he died in, I've seen several accidents in my day that were similar but none causing an explosion that set the car on fire. Those fiery accidents seemed to only happen on the freeway at very high speeds. I'm not putting forth a conspiracy theory, but wonder if he was shot at by a random drive by shooter, not uncommon on the streets of LA, which caused him to run a red light and that ignited the gas tank. It could have been just a gang shooting and he got caught in the crossfire. Oops, there I go putting forth a theory that probably has nothing to do with the facts. Yep, we have got to wait for the official coroner's report.

[Life Long Dem]

30. To serve and protect makes more sense to me

The FBI's main goal is "To protect and defend the United States against terrorist and foreign intelligence threats, to uphold and enforce the criminal laws of the United States, and to provide leadership and criminal justice services to federal, state, municipal, and international agencies and partners."

http://criminalminds.wikia.com/wiki/Federal_Bureau_of_Investigation

I'll wait for the investigation.

[longship]

31. They MADE him run a red light at high speed?

As witnesses have reported.

Occam's razor says he is dead because he was driving like a crazy person.

Wonder what the conspiracy theorists will say when the investigation finds that driving like a loony was the cause.

[Cali_Democrat]

47. Now people here are implying somebody made his gas pedal stick

This place is turning into Infowars-lite

[zappaman]

49. It is apparent that DU

has quite a few libertarians on it.
They won't admit it, but it is obvious by their statements.
And libertarians LOVE them some Alex Jones!

[TeeYiYi]

50. I didn't say ”somebody made his gas pedal stick”...

You're not very honest in your dealings, are you?

TYY

[Cali_Democrat]

52. I wasn't referring to your post

I was referring to several other DUers who keep using the term "Boston brakes" when referencing Hastings' death.

[longship]

56. Well, that's the first part of any CT 101 class.

You endow omnipotent power in the hands of the conspirators. They can do anything, including sweeping all their traces under a carpet of secrecy. And anybody violating that's subject to assassination.

BUT!!! We, of the enlightened (so to speak), have pierced the veil. Of course, we also happen to be immune to the above mentioned assassination bureau.

Everybody else are either co-conspirators, or dupes.

Surely you can see it, too!!!!! You just have to believe.

[Cali_Democrat]

62. Perfect analysis

You nailed it

[alcibiades_mystery]

188. It does make one feel good about oneself to be of the enlightened few, yes?

[KoKo]

65. Aren't you CT'ing when you say he "purposefully ran red lights" though?

All I've seen is those of us who read him, concerned and wanting to know what happened. If it happened to Howie Kurtz, whom I don't read or watch I probably wouldn't even bother to read past the headline.

People who knew Hasting's writing and felt he was an excellent reporter just want to know details that break in the media. We are upset at his death since he was so young with much promise going forward.

What I've seen is that there are DU'ers posting here who are interested in what happened and I've yet to see anyone except folks coming into threads and jabbing at us who isn't concerned that there is a fair and complete investigation. One poster even said "Sasquatch" hasn't been seen or some such thing to mock those interested in sharing the latest news reports and make it sound like those discussing Hastings death were all throwing out ridiculous stuff like that.

[cascadiance]

68. So, would it be then that NO ONE has ever died in a car wreck because of a stuck gas pedal?

It doesn't take us Alex Jones to know that this does happen on occasion.

Even new cars have flaws in them at times that cause problems like this, even if less likely than older cars if it is a true mechanical failure. And it might be just a coincidental mechanical failure of his car too, though I'm guessing the coincidence of events for him and this just being an accident by the car itself failing because of flawed manufacturing is probably remote.

Then again, someone might have tampered with his car in the last few days. I would hope that those investigating the accident don't just look at the scene of the accident and the car, etc. But also look at where his car was at any given time over the last two days or so. Perhaps he has GPS that could be used to figure that out, and who might have been around the car or had surveillance of it during that time if it was parked somewhere.

Of course, the first step is to hopefully have a good way of measuring for alcohol, etc. in his body if that can be done with the autopsy. If he did have a lot of alcohol content, then probably doing this sort of research less useful. If he was that drunk, was he at a bar where there might b more witnesses? At home? If he was suicidal perhaps, it might help to try and track down that and figure out why he might have been that way too. That might have a lot to do with this FBI letter, etc. too.

I think the bottom line is that it is too premature to just dismiss this as an "accident" and that he was a "crazy man" when driving. Is there a history of him driving this way? I think we need to know more about investigation results and hopefully they are thorough and his friends and family ensure that it is made thorough as well.

Given the potential for what he might have been working having an effect on us all, that is why we should all stay tuned to what ultimately is turned up in this investigation, as it might be pretty important for all of us to see than another accident where even if there were criminal intent involved only involved a few individuals and not potentially people on a national or world scale being affected.

Whistleblowers now also saying that Flight 800 crash real cause was covered up as well many years later. If we'd had more scrutiny then, and in fact there was a coverup then, questioning what happened hard then might have been better to have us more definitively establish or dismiss those claims than doing so post-facto so many years later. I'm hoping that's why this isn't pushed aside now as an "accident" and people do look in to what happened with an open mind thoroughly now while the facts are still far more attainable.

Let's not be in a hurry to make this a conspiracy nor to dismiss it, nor bash each other for taking the opposite side if we try to commit to one of these sides. The rest of us who are waiting for a more complete story to be told don't want to have to sift through a lot of arguing that seems a bit pointless at this point. Conjectures of one side or the other are fine. Let's just not lock ourselves in yet.

[KoKo]

72. Well Said!

[Cooley Hurd]

163. I can't speak for others, but I would prefer an investigation over a pre-disposed dismissal...

...or are investigations something you would prefer NOT to happen?

[Cali_Democrat]

165. The LAPD is currently investigating. n/t

[Cooley Hurd]

168. ...and that is troubling.

The LAPD has a pretty bad record right across the board. But, it's their jurisdiction so there's not much more we can do.

[Cooley Hurd]

160. Your incuriosity, if adopted by more people, will do much more harm than good.

Wonder what the complacent class will think if any investigation reveals wrong-doing by those other than the victim?

Wouldn't you prefer the TRUTH, whatever that is, over a pre-disposed narrative?

[LanternWaste]

36. Most people with common sense don't expect everyone who disagrees with them to lack common sense

Most people with common sense don't expect everyone who disagrees with them to lack common sense simply because they disagree.

So where does that leave us...?

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

[Octafish]

39. Few writers are unafraid to write about the crimes of the national security state.

The death of Mr. Hastings makes that number much smaller.

BTW: The LA Times reported he was working on a story with Jill Kelley regarding David Petraeus.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-michael-hastings-jill-kelly-case-20130620,0,2559316.story

Petraeus and his extramarital relationship with biographer Paula Broadwell was exposed somehow via email.

[Ichingcarpenter]

41. 'Boston Brakes'

are not fiction.....

But I'll just leave that there
and 'The Feather Men'


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Feather_Men

[Ichingcarpenter]

75. In addition

Experimental Security Analysis of a Modern Automobile


Karl Koscher, Alexei Czeskis, Franziska Roesner, Shwetak Patel, and Tadayoshi Kohno


Department of Computer Science and Engineering University of Washington Seattle, Washington 98195–2350

Stephen Checkoway, Damon McCoy, Brian Kantor, Danny Anderson, Hovav Shacham, and Stefan Savage

Department of Computer Science and Engineering University of California San Diego La Jolla, California


Abstract—Modern automobiles are no longer mere mechan- ical devices; they are pervasively monitored and controlled by dozens of digital computers coordinated via internal vehicular networks. While this transformation has driven major advance- ments in efficiency and safety, it has also introduced a range of new potential risks. In this paper we experimentally evaluate these issues on a modern automobile and demonstrate the fragility of the underlying system structure. We demonstrate that an attacker who is able to infiltrate virtually any Electronic Control Unit (ECU) can leverage this ability to completely circumvent a broad array of safety-critical systems. Over a range of experiments, both in the lab and in road tests, we demonstrate the ability to adversarially control a wide range of automotive functions and completely ignore driver input — including disabling the brakes, selectively braking individual wheels on demand, stopping the engine, and so on.

We find that it is possible to bypass rudimentary network security protections within the car, such as maliciously bridging between our car’s two internal subnets. We also present composite attacks that leverage individual weaknesses, including an attack that embeds malicious code in a car’s telematics unit and that will completely erase any evidence of its presence after a crash

. Looking forward, we discuss the complex challenges in addressing these vulnerabilities while considering the existing automotive ecosystem.



http://www.autosec.org/pubs/cars-oakland2010.pdf

[Octafish]

96. Small world.

"You talk about vengeance. Is vengeance going to bring your son back to you or my boy to me? I forgo the vengeance of my son. But my youngest son had to leave this country because of this Sollozzo business. So now I have to make arrangements to bring him back safely, cleared of all these false charges. But I'm a superstitious man. And if some unlucky accident should befall him, if he should be shot in the head by a police officer, or if he should hang himself in his jail cell, or if he's struck by a bolt of lightning -- then I'm going to blame some of the people in this room. And that, I do not forgive. But, that aside, let say that I swear, on the souls of my grandchildren, that I will not be the one to break the peace we have made here today."

PS: The Fiennes folk, it is my sincere hope, are.

[Smarmie Doofus]

179. Interesting. (Does that comment make me a conspiracy loon?) n/t

[Ichingcarpenter]

187. USENIX Conference Video from 2011

Our work seeks to put this question to rest by systematically analyzing the external attack surface of a modern automobile. We discover that remote exploitation is feasible via a broad range of attack vectors (including mechanics tools, CD players, Bluetooth and cellular radio), and further, that wireless communications channels allow long distance vehicle control, location tracking, in-cabin audio exfiltration and theft. Finally, we discuss the structural characteristics of the automotive ecosystem that give rise to such problems and highlight the practical challenges in mitigating them.

About USENIX since 1975, the USENIX Association has brought together the community of engineers, system administrators, scientists, and technicians working on the cutting edge of the computing world. The USENIX conferences have become the essential meeting grounds for the presentation and discussion of the most advanced information on the developments of all aspects of computing systems. USENIX supports its members' professional and technical development through a variety of on-going activities,


Say what you will but this exploit on cars is real.


Use to be called 'boston brake'

[LanternWaste]

92. Neither is irresponsible driving.

"'Boston Brakes' are not fiction....."

Neither is irresponsible driving. Winder if there's a Wiki entry on being a dumb ass drivers?

[Ichingcarpenter]

148. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar

except when you talk about
fidel Castro.

Boston Brakes can cause the type of 'dumb ass driving'
he exhibited.

He pissed off a X General
who was head of special forces and the X head of the CIA

Motive, means and opportunity as they say

But it may have been
just a cigar.

[stevenleser]

58. Name one. Name a writer/journalist/pundit who is afraid, who feels they have to self-censor.

I've met a lot of journalists around the political spectrum. None of them have said anything like that.

[Octafish]

88. Mark Marzetti of The New York Times, for starters.

Correspondence and collusion between the New York Times and the CIA

Mark Mazzetti's emails with the CIA expose the degradation of journalism that has lost the imperative to be a check to power

Glenn Greenwald
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 29 August 2012 14.58 EDT

EXCERPT...

But what is news in this disclosure are the newly released emails between Mark Mazzetti, the New York Times's national security and intelligence reporter, and CIA spokeswoman Marie Harf. The CIA had evidently heard that Maureen Dowd was planning to write a column on the CIA's role in pumping the film-makers with information about the Bin Laden raid in order to boost Obama's re-election chances, and was apparently worried about how Dowd's column would reflect on them. On 5 August 2011 (a Friday night), Harf wrote an email to Mazzetti with the subject line: "Any word??", suggesting, obviously, that she and Mazzetti had already discussed Dowd's impending column and she was expecting an update from the NYT reporter.

SNIP...

Even more amazing is the reaction of the newspaper's managing editor, Dean Baquet, to these revelations, as reported by Politico's Dylan Byers:

"New York Times Managing Editor Dean Baquet called POLITICO to explain the situation, but provided little clarity, saying he could not go into detail on the issue because it was an intelligence matter.

CONTINUED with LINKS...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/29/correspondence-collusion-new-york-times-cia

PS: I think I told you about him before. If so, it still stands.

PPS: To learn more about how our nation's press devolved to the point where it now goes along with scripted press conferences, read "On Bended Knee: The Press and the Reagan Presidency" by Mark Hertsgaard. There are a few more studies since then, but that work provides an excellent basis for developing a more sophisticated understanding.

[stevenleser]

91. There is absolutely nothing in that which suggests fear or a need to self censor on Mazzetti's part

Did you read what you quoted?

[Octafish]

97. You mean, apart from where CIA calls NYT and gets them to change a story.

Of course, the national security beat writer isn't just going along to get along. He's going along to get along.

Good luck with your reading.

[stevenleser]

99. Correct. No fear there. It suggests agreement or Collusion perhaps. No evidence of fear is presented

What you cited explicitly makes the collusion charge, not fear. Again, did you read it?

[Octafish]

133. You are the best.

Agreement. Collusion. An Offer they can't refuse. War. Whatever.

[stevenleser]

135. I knew you would see it my way. It's the way what you posted is worded. nt

[JDPriestly]

191. Stupid, conformist ones don't need to worry because they will never probe deeply enough into

the facts behind a story to learn anything controversial.

In fact, if I claimed to be a journalist and didn't print or talk about some really controversial stories that, say, rubbed the repeaters on Fox News the wrong way from time to time, I would probably try to find a different line of work.

[octoberlib]

43. Hastings' wife, co-workers and probably most of his friends

are journalists. I'm sure if they think anything's suspicious they'll put pressure on the authorities.

[flamingdem]

51. I agree. We probably won't hear more details for a while

That's because there are insurance issues at stake. I think if he was inebriated he will not get insurance money, maybe Life Insurance as well. The family and friends need to be tight lipped at this point.

If they think it is a conspiracy that will come out over time. I can't blame them for going their now in their grief but unless I missed it this hasn't been floated by his friends or family.

[stevenleser]

54. Most people? Please link to the poll that allows you to make that assertion. nt

[struggle4progress]

55. What I want to know is why the news media never showed the footage of

the Tyrannosaur chasing his car

What? That's not news worthy? Gimme a frickin break! It changes the story completely, because it suggests he'd been at the La Brea Tar Pits shortly before the accident!

But since nobody covered that part of the story, we have to ask why. And a good first question is: where's that Tyrannosaur now?

[stevenleser]

60. Assuming I read this correctly (satire/sarcasm) well put. nt

[Melinda]

61. Believing something absolutely isn't a conspiracy when you don't have all the information...

is just as stupid as believing something absolutely is.

The smart money is on gathering evidence first, drawing conclusions last.

[Smarmie Doofus]

74. +1. The fascinating thing is: I can't find a single post here which says or implies that it MUST....

.... be a conspiracy. ( Maybe it's in there, but I can't find it.)

On the other hand, there are at least 5 posters ... they've been in on every Hastings related thread that I've seen ( Do they not have *other* interests?).....who are lividly, *wildly* insistent that the superficial 11:00 TV news narrative of the Hastings death is incontestably true in it's every detail and treat everyone who betrays the slightest doubt or reservation about that particular narrative, or any part of it, with a bitterness and sarcasm bordering on the pathological.

They'd make poor scientists --- among other things. I wonder why they're so *committed* to the unofficial "official" story; so ADAMANT.

Really... it's perplexing. And a bit creepy. ( Not "mysterious" creepy, so much as " yecccchhh, keep your distance, please" creepy.)

[Tarheel_Dem]

63. OMG! Progressives used to get credit for intelligent, thoughtful debate. Now we're reduced to....

crazy assed conspiracy theories just like the teanutters? I'm ashamed that there are people, associating themselves with the left, who engage in this shit. This shit makes the Doomsday Preppers look sane, by comparison. I guess "common sense", like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

[geek tragedy]

66. You must have joined after they created the 9/11 Dungeon to hide the crazy. nt

[Tarheel_Dem]

77. GD is the biggest forum, and perhaps a "dungeon" of sorts would be more appropriate for this.....

kind of crap. When visitors peep in, what's left to separate us from the Alex Jones crowd? I wish we had moderators again.

[geek tragedy]

79. It's known these days as "Creative Speculation" because, ostensibly, the crazy talk

should be confined to that place.

[jberryhill]

125. Unfortunately

The hosts of CS kept locking "crazy talk" threads which essentially kicked the inmates out of the asylum.

[zappaman]

130. +100 n/t

[alcibiades_mystery]

101. There is no left or progressive movement anymore; there's just this shit

The Left built structures and institutions, connected with people, sought to persuade others in a political manner, talked policy. The Left built the unions. The Left built workers' schools and the civil rights schools. The Left sought election. The Left organized.

This shit is not the Left. For all the fetishism of the New Deal around here, not a damn one of them knows fuck all about the Left in the 1930's, a real broad-based political movement.

Now we are reduced to this: people who don't do anything, who build nothing, who connect with nobody, who participate in jack-shit, who don't discuss policy, who teach us zero, speculating on which dark forces used which dark arts to kill a journalist who most people never heard of.

The progressive movement is a joke because progressives are a joke. The Left doesn't exist as an organized force. It exists now as a pack of internt clowns running a mediocre circus, and mistaking their clownish antics for political activism.

[Rex]

103. What a pants load.

Yeah you probably believe OWS is just a bunch of dirty hippies too. Ridiculous post, but expected by a certain few here that can only think in binary.

[Tarheel_Dem]

113. ^^^This^^^. Should be its own o.p. The romanticism surrounding FDR leaves out the fact that not...

everyone was equal under FDR's "New Deal". DU'er greek tragedy laid it out beautifully. I blame the fusion of libertarians and liberals in the Bush years. Everyone knows that libertarians are just Republicans who want to smoke dope and get laid, and not get arrested or feel religiously guilty about either.

[zappaman]

116. And this place is swarming with them.

Oh, and FUCK RON PAUL.

[Tarheel_Dem]

122. I love that graphic, cuz it's so true.

[Codeine]

189. Killer post, alcibiades_mystery.

You'll catch hell for it, but that was a fantastic statement that needed to be made.

[Rex]

104. You binary thinkers always crack me up!

[carolinayellowdog]

67. even if an accident, it might be caused by his tormented state of mind

or fleeing from someone, or having been drugged, those are the things I keep worrying about

[canoeist52]

69. The pile-on alone here, raises my antennae.

[GoneFishin]

174. Agreed. The character of the counter arguments are interesting too. Usually this type

of vitriol is provoked in defense of somebody specific. In this case, I am not sure who they think they are defending. I think if I were a person who was 100% comfortable that Michael Hastings just had an ordinary car crash I would not even bother with this OP. I would just move on.

But instead there is a pile on by people already alleging alcohol and drug use, even though they have no idea what really happened. And at the same time discounting the fact that he pissed off some powerful people who are used to getting their way. It seems disingenuous.

[Prism]

70. Not deeply suspicious. More a raised eyebrow.

But, speeding, 430am, a run red light, no cars in pursuit? If the toxicology points to alcohol or drugs, I honestly won't think anymore of it.

I'm furious at our surveillance state and the people who apologize for it. But the man was apparently a "nervous wreck" according to those who knew him. Chemical involvement given the circumstances and evidence just wouldn't strike me as an improbable explanation.

[starroute]

73. One problem is how many people who discomfit the authorities wind up dead

For the past 50 years, one figure after another who has seemed to pose a threat to the system or has dug too deeply into areas that someone else might want to keep hidden has either been killed, died under suspicious circumstances, been discredited by a convenient scandal, been driven to some sort of mental breakdown that makes them either suicidal or accident-prone, or simply found themselves unable to get work.

Others have abruptly pulled back under circumstances that might suggest sell-out, blackmail, direct threats, or dire warnings from concerned friends. And there are also arrests of figures like Barrett Brown on seemingly flimsy charges.

Saying this is not a conspiracy theory. It doesn't imply that all these events were carried out by a single set of perpetrators or even that all of them were deliberate acts of suppression. But it does mean that when yet another politician, muckraker, or potential whistle-blower unexpectedly dies or is taken out of circulation, the immediate reaction is "Not again!"

It also means that anybody who immediately leaps to a "Nothing to see here, move along" response is going to be seen by some as attempting to suppress legitimate questions.

My own opinion is that we on the left have been under siege for a very long time, and that we're better off coming to terms with that fact than pretending that everything is normal. We do have enemies (both within and outside of government) who are ruthless enough to kill or commit other crimes in defense of their interests, and we'll be both saner and safer if we accept that as a given rather than trying to wish it away.

[still_one]

76. You only speak for yourself

[Liberal Veteran]

78. More correctly, people with common sense entertained the CT as a passing thought.

And then pushed it aside as probably the kind of thing better suited to extremely late AM radio shows.

[lanlady]

82. honestly, someone with a car like that...

...probably is a speed demon by nature. We'll know more when we know where he was driving from (and to), and whether he had a history of speeding tickets etc.

[Agnosticsherbet]

85. Common sense isn't.

For much of the history of western civilization, common sense said the earth was flat.
For our founding fathers, common sense said that women had no rights and any non-whites could be property.
For Paula Dean a common sense party has people of color dressed like slaves.
Common sense told us that the erath was the center of the universe.

I think an appeal to fact works better. Conmon sense has a bad track record.

[Rex]

100. It doesn't look like a mere accident.

But was also reminded that, "shit happens".

[mwrguy]

114. So, did Obama MIHOP or LIHOP?

Also, should I make my hat with the shiny side in or out?

[Cooley Hurd]

169. Sorry...

...but your post offers nothing to this discussion, other than to embarrass the author of it.

[Jessy169]

126. Gas tank exploding on impact is VERY suspicious, IMO

Mercedes has a sterling safety record. Automobile gas tanks rarely if EVER explode on impact, especially in high-end autos with excellent safety features as is the case with Mercedes. I did a couple of searches on Google, and found one fire department EMT who says he has been to hundreds of auto crash sites, and NOT ONCE did he witness an exploding gas tank. The MythBusters already proved beyond any doubt that even firinga .50 caliber bullet into a gas tank won't make it explode (unless it is the special type of round that causes fires...). Gas tank exploding and burning up all the evidence -- THAT is suspicious.

[zappaman]

129. How about when you are going so fast, you shear off a fire hydrant and tear the gas tank and..

then the engine flies out of the car because you just impacted a tree going 100mph and now the fuel lines are flowing gas all over?
What, in your estimation, would cause the gas to ignite?
Heat, perhaps?

[Jessy169]

132. You tell me

Is that what happened?

Heat, unless it is extreme, doesn't make gas combust -- does it? A spark is needed. But if what you're saying happened actually happened, then we can assume a few sparks flew. But are you saying what really happened, or just asking a hypothetical question with snarky intent, that's what I don't know. All I know is what I wrote -- hundreds of car accidents witnessed by an EMT pro, no exploding gas tanks.

[zappaman]

134. Yes, he sheared off a fire hydrant and hit a tree

Confirmed by both witnesses and video.

[Jessy169]

138. If it happened to anybody else

... we'd call it a freak accident. Because it happened to someone who we KNOW that professional career killers and hit men had strong motivation to target, it isn't unreasonable to suspect foul play. If you total up all the auto accidents in America and do some math to determine how many of those resulted in exploding gas tanks, you'll get a very tiny percentage. That it happened in this case only adds to the intrigue. But sure, it could have just happened that way.

[zappaman]

139. What?

"Because it happened to someone who we KNOW that professional career killers and hit men had strong motivation to target"

Says who? You KNOW this how?

[Jessy169]

142. Good point

It could be that McCrystel took it all with a good sense of humor, as did all the special ops and Blackwater contractors that he worked with. Those are a bunch of kind, understanding and reasonable people, as we all know. We don't "KNOW" that he was pissed off and murerously vengeful after his dirty deeds were aired in public by our now-dead reporter. So, in fact, you have a very good point, zappaman.

[Progressive dog]

131. Common Sense?

Okay, I'll bite, why is it common sense to immediately suspect a conspiracy by the government?
You certainly are welcome to say so, but I've observed that most people with common sense don't jump to conclusions. There has been no release of autopsy results from the medical examiner.
There is video showing his car speeding through a red light and the video crew filmed all the way to the crash site.
your
I hope that common sense isn't the same as ignoring evidence when it doesn't fit preconceived conclusions.

[X_Digger]

161. And by extension those not deeply suspicious have no common sense, eh?

[LaydeeBug]

175. I thought it was a bit suspect bc of McChrystal

but I will wait to see the investigation results. If it reeks of Lori Klasutis, we will know well enough.

[deathrind]

176. How can one with...

...said "commen sense" not be?

Death with an obvious convenience cannot be viewed any other way. Michael McConnell, Paul Wellstone are very good examples of this. Accidents happen no doubt about that. But accidents that clearly have a potential to sway an issue have to be viewed thru a very different spectrum.

[Summer Hathaway]

177. People with common sense

are not paranoids who believe that every occurrence in life is the result of some conspiracy cooked up on a website.

The fact that some ridiculous CT is immediately embraced by their fellow paranoids only validates an individual's paranoia - and common sense, I assure you, has absolutely nothing to do with it.

[Smarmie Doofus]

178. Strawman fallacy. No one here thinks that.

You're arguing against a position no one holds.

[GoneFishin]

182. He pissed off powerful people who have exactly the skills to create this event if they chose to.

I question the reasoning of anybody who preemptively provides cover for an incomplete investigation because it would make them feel icky inside if this was anything more than an accident.

Your use of phrases like "ridiculous CT" and "fellow paranoids" to shutdown any discussion of the fact that there are people with means and motive to remove Michael Hastings is very interesting.

[Summer Hathaway]

190. Posting a reply on a discussion board

pointing out that there are paranoids who espouse ridiculous CTs is something you find 'very interesting'?

You should look into that. People posting their opinions on a discussion boards are probably part of some vast conspiracy ...