"When you hate the perpetrator

[nadinbrzezinski]

You lose a piece of your humanity, and they win."

I was told this many years ago outside the trauma center by a homicide detective, a veteran of the force with seventeen years under his belt.

We had just transported a real Boy Scout, directly responsible for at least fifty death, including a five year old who was at the wrong pace that day. Indirectly, he was responsible for hundreds of dead, perhaps up to a thousand. That day, as an enforcer to one of the cartels, he killed four and injured critically six. He was shot by the cops, and I was the lucky ducky to transport this "gent" to the same hospital where two of his victims were in the ER, one on his way to the OR.

Every time we have one of these incidents my mind snaps back to that conversation. We took care of this gent, he lived, he went on to trial, where he was convicted and given a long time to think about it in jail. There is yet, not a death penalty in Mexico, and life a the time did not exist. It des now in a couple states.

So as hard as this may be, this 19 year old young man committed a horrible crime. He still deserves to be seen as a human being, with rights to a fair trial. Anything else is vigilantism, and I won't let any person who commits a horrible crime win, by letting them get hated by me. Hate consumes your soul, not theirs. So be a little selfish...

"Don"t hate the perpetrator. It's about you, not them."

[Kalidurga]

1. I don't hate them...

I am indifferent or apathetic. This guy is going to rot in jail. I wish him a long and healthy life.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. I wrote this for those who do

And wish for a vigilante justice.

[christx30]

32. I'm reminded of an exchange in ConAir:

Cyrus: what's the in-flight movie?
Guard: it's a double feature. The first film is called "I'll never make love to a woman again". Followed by "No more Steak for me, EVER".

I don't hate this kid. But I want him to be reminded of everything he and his brother took away from those that were injured and killed. And how, at age 19, his life is pretty much over. Even if he is not executed, he will never do anything else in his life but sit in a cage and wait to die. Old age, another convict. He's done. And for absolutely so reason. The world will spin on. And 2 years from now, the average person on the street won't remember his name. Everything he did was for nothing.

[Kalidurga]

45. That's a great double feature.

I think he should get the enjoyment of watching Con Air see if he can connect the dots.

[Cleita]

2. Part of the oath doctors swear to is to do no harm. That means

giving the best treatment and care you can to both foe and friend. You are not the judge and jury. That will come later.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Medics as well

We had a very long discussion on the rights of the acused as I power washed an ambulance and later disinfected it

[Cleita]

13. That's good to know. n/t

[OhioChick]

16. Medics do not take The Hippocratic Oath

Furthermore, paramedics and RN's are often used in carrying out the death penalty.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. It's not the hipocratic oath

It's an oath designed after WW II. Moreover Red Cross Paramedics take an oath to serve those in need regardless of health, economic ststus, race, national origin and so on and so forth. That is unique to Red Cross personnel around the world, and taken by all personnel.

For the record, I did upon graduation.

[OhioChick]

18. I have several paramedics in the family and none have taken any type of "oath." n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. I will give it to you as soon as it loads.

Paramedic Oath

Be it pledged as an Emergency Care Practitioner, I will honor the physical and judicial laws of God and man. I will follow that regimen which, according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of patients and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous, nor shall I suggest any such counsel.

Into whatever homes I enter, I will ho into them for the benefit of only the sick and injured, never revealing what I see or hear in the lives of men unless required by law.

I shall also share my medical knowledge with those who may benefit from what I have learned. I will serve unselfishly and continuously in order to help make a better world for all mankind.

While I continue to keep this oath unviolated, may it be granted to me to enjoy life, and the practice of the art, respected by all men, in all times. Should I trespass or violate this oath, may the reverse be my lot.

So help me God.

For the record, when I took EMT courses in the US it was in the damn textbook.

[OhioChick]

33. "in the damn textbook?"

Why are you being so nasty?

That oath is from the NAEMT, which is a union and non-certifying body.

To satisfy my curiosity, I called the EMTs in my family and none have ever taken such an oath. My nephew brought over his textbook and there's no oath in there, either.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. I am not being nasty

It was in the textbooks that seems to be a problem I guess.

For the record, the one I took in Mexico was and is....what Red Cross Personnel take around the world.

Then again n the 1990s standards of training changed, so ethics might have gone out the window in the US.

I know that RED CROSS paramedics and EMTs (don't look at the US, no such critters exist) still take an oath upon graduation.

But hey, nothing off my skin, I know it was in my fracking EMT textbook up to 1992 I also know I took, and later administered an oath, and taught a code of professional ethics to my students. Unique to the Red Cross, it included 40 hours in the Geneva Convention. (Yes, our course was longer
Since it was not just medical procedures)

For the record, when I was issued my EMT Card in California, I was asked to read and sign a form that included that oath.

So you could say I have taken two different oaths in two different countries.

What is done today...it's what is done today.

But yes, medics do take an oath...perhaps not your relatives, but medics do.

Nor did I say it was the hypocratic oath

If you think posting facts is being nasty, may I suggest the ignore button, or trash thread.

[ChromeFoundry]

38. You are right...

The National Registry of Emergency Medical Technicians (NREMT) is the national certifying body and the only have a Code of Conduct. States base certifications based off the NR guidelines. EMTs and RNs are not required to take an oath of any type at a national or state level.

The NAEMT is an organization that represents EMT professionals that pay dues to the organization. They have an oath on their web site that no member actually is sworn into the organization... But then again, I don't know any Paramedic that is a member of this organization, because it is not a requirement of any State licensing agency.

[OhioChick]

39. Thank you!

As I said earlier, several family members are NREMTs-Paramedics and have never taken any oath. My nephew, who is the most recent graduate just told me he never signed or recited any oath, either.

[Cleita]

36. Not all doctors do either. But most take an oath that has a variation of the Hippocratic

Oath to do no harm. Take the Oath of Maimonides for instance:

The Oath of Maimonides

The eternal providence has appointed me to watch over the life and health of Thy creatures. May the love for my art actuate me at all time; may neither avarice nor miserliness, nor thirst for glory or for a great reputation engage my mind; for the enemies of truth and philanthropy could easily deceive me and make me forgetful of my lofty aim of doing good to Thy children.

May I never see in the patient anything but a fellow creature in pain.

Grant me the strength, time and opportunity always to correct what I have acquired, always to extend its domain; for knowledge is immense and the spirit of man can extend indefinitely to enrich itself daily with new requirements.

Today he can discover his errors of yesterday and tomorrow he can obtain a new light on what he thinks himself sure of today. Oh, God, Thou has appointed me to watch over the life and death of Thy creatures; here am I ready for my vocation and now I turn unto my calling.

As you can see the words are different but the sentiment the same. Most people in the medical field whether doctors or not take some kind of swearing in that delineates the principles they should follow in their profession. I'm sure if you ask your paramedic friends/relatives they will tell you what was required of them.

[ChromeFoundry]

40. Following the "EMT - Code of Conduct" is all that is required of EMT-Paramedics

There is no oath. This is why in the state of Ohio (and most other), an EMT-Paramedic is the person that administers lethal injection. Note, they are NOT performing the duties of a EMT-Paramedic while performing this act, but are required to be certified as a EMT-Paramedic in order to be certified to perform this act. EMT-Paramedics are trained to inject medications through IV, but are not acting under any doctor's license (as they are in emergency situations) while performing the act. As an EMT, they are not allowed to push the drugs used in lethal injection. You will not see a doctor administer lethal injection because it violates the Hippocratic Oath. Codes of Conduct/Ethics and Oaths are very different.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. I would refuse, on ethical grounds

But I was taught, and taught others, to do no harm.

[ChromeFoundry]

42. .. as "most" would refuse!

"most" - meaning people, in general.

[Cleita]

43. I didn't say it had to be an oath in our legal sense.

The fact that they have to follow a Code of Conduct proves my point. I said some kind of swearing in which doesn't have to be an oath on a Bible in front of a judge. It could be an agreement you sign or even a word promise that is essentially an oath. You don't have to put your hand on a Bible to swear an oath. An oath is just a promise in front of witnesses. The Bible or doing it on your mother's head type of action, is to prove that you mean it. But I don't think anyone goes into the medical field without some requirements for their licenses that involves not using your position for revenge killings.

[Ninga]

3. Well said. Justice must not be blind, it must take place so we become the beacon to the rest of the

world....stand for order, stand for innocent until proven guilty...for all. Because if we waiver and start to make exceptions to the rule of law, then the pandora's box will be open for all of us.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Beacon, not so much

It's about civilized society.

But the US is no beacon.

[Ninga]

7. well, not to parse words, beacon as in meaning "seen from a distance"

thats all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Not to parse words...American Exceptionalism is bunk

It's an imperial tool.

You know what comes up when others think of the US at present? Guantanamo, Iraq, Abu Graib,

[Tarheel_Dem]

22. If what you say is true, then why are we having this big immigration debate? Why are....

people still lining up, by the hundreds of thousands, to get into this un-"exceptional", imperialistic tool of a country? They should just stay put if all that comes to mind is "Guantanamo, Iraq, Abu Ghraib". You're presuming to speak for the world, and frankly, I don't think you or any one person has the right.

[heaven05]

23. because

they're fooled by the hype. Don't know the real truth, that's why.

[Tarheel_Dem]

35. Well let's hope nadinbrzezinski gets the word out quick, maybe they'll change their minds.....

and we can save this big immigration fight, and move on to more important topics like how we impeccably protect the rights of folks who shoot cops, who toss improvised grenades willy-nilly out of car windows, who use cooking implements to blow people's limbs off, who go on to admit it all to the guy whose car they just jacked at gunpoint. And aside from the human toll, we don't even want to get into who picks up the tab for shutting down one of the biggest cities in the country for an entire day, just as long as we meticulously protect the "rights" of an asshole whose family sought & received refuge from their own hostile government.

Last week, people commented on an o.p. that Democratic registration had dropped a couple of points, but reading DU lately, I don't think it's for the reasons they think. I think it's just as plausible that Democrats are trying to put some distance between themselves & this new liberal-libertarian hybrid that's trying to emerge. Hell, I think I might run out & register Independent as well.

[heaven05]

44. what

Last edited Sat Apr 20, 2013, 06:43 PM - Edit history (1)

are you commenting on. The Immigration fight is a political fight/issue only because of the Hispanic vote. Run the so called 'illegals' out of California, Texas and other places and the 1% in those areas would collapse, literally, because they would either have to pay a living wage to an american domestic or do the work themselves. Give me a break, never happen. You think the Waltons, Romshits, or any of the rest of them would be caught with a vacuum cleaner or a shovel in their hands? We as a country and a 'democracy' don't always impeccably protect domestic or human rights or the welfare of the poor, elderly or vets. Abu Grabbbbbie, Gitmo, 100,000 plus men, woman and children who just happened to be in the way of the 'Shock and Awe' juggernaut never had rights. People who kill and maim innocents and are shown to be killers beyond a shadow of doubt have no rights, as far as I'm concerned. And in the last 12 years the high and the mighty fit into that group as well. Pick and choose who you please. Nadine IS right and the word and the truth, about the hypocrisy of our 'democracy' is out there and has been for a long time. PNAC, 9/11, ect made that an inevitable fact. But whatever, you're entitled to place your head wherever you please. The more I view this nation and it's people and culture the more fearful I become. I don't feel safe from domestic or foreign threat. Not as long as limbaughnistas, beckers, palins and their ilk are around or idiots like these two amateurs from Boston.

[Tarheel_Dem]

46. I'm not sure what your response has to do with the fact that hundreds of thousands.....

still line up to get in, so not everyone feels about this country, the way you do. You can accept that, OR NOT! We're a huge democracy, and we don't always get it right, but I'd rather live here than anyplace on earth. As for all the other Occupy tp's, I'm really not interested, but thanks anyhoo.

[heaven05]

47. have fun

[heaven05]

54. yeah

Last edited Mon Apr 29, 2013, 09:32 AM - Edit history (1)

and not everyone knows the truth about how our "american way of life" was achieved. But anyhoo you wouldn't care about the terror felt by millions of native-americans who were slaughtered to gain that 'way of life'. The millions enslaved to build that 'way of life'. The hundreds of thousands in our recent 13 years around the world that have been slaughtered and killed by american imperialism. PNAC. No, those lining up to stampede into 'the light of america', DON'T know the truth of the immense bloodletting of innocents to create this. And those that do and don't care, well the rightwing will have new converts as soon as they get their citizenship. Anyhoo. You're entitled to keep your head inserted where you please to remain blind to the reality of our (d)emocracy. People like you are what made america great.

[heaven05]

29. yep

[sad-cafe]

49. then why the hell do you continue to live here and presume to "educate" us all

GTFO

[B2G]

14. 'The US is no beacon'. Bullshit

How many countries would have shot him dead in that boat?

Hint: a bunch.

[heaven05]

24. dorner

well if you don't want to get hunted and shot down like a rabid dog in the streets or burned to a crisp without a trial, don't publish a 'manifesto' first telling people why you went crazy.

[B2G]

27. Waco & Ruby Ridge

You just may be right.

[Buzz Clik]

8. Um. Bullshit.

I'll grant you this: I don't know this kid, but I hate what he did. He did it knowingly and willingly and cause death, injury, pain, and chaos. Yeah, I hate him. He's in jail, and I'm here. I didn't lose anything.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Yes you do, you lose compassion.

I ain't religious, but some achristian and Jewish texts adress this very well, as well as Budhist.

He won.

[Buzz Clik]

10. we are destined to disagree. That's ok. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. And we will

[Gregorian]

15. We were all born innocent.

[malaise]

19. Agree

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster.

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. Friedrich Nietzsche

[jwirr]

25. Exactly - I have watched so many people waste their time in hate and then be angry because they are

in some kind of trouble with something they have neglected.

[daleanime]

26. Agreed...

[nolabear]

28. Hate is every bit as powerful a force as love, and those you hate you remain intimate with.

I see people all the time who cannot let go of a wrong done to them, and it's as if that wrong continues to be done over and over and over. I know how very hard it can be when you are afraid or in pain, and how hate seems a better and stronger focus than those feelings, but it IS continued control by the one hated, and I hate to see people going through that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. These two young men, might have been motivated partly by hate

Especially the older brother.



This is always an interesting twist always.

[Zorra]

31. Good post. Hating is a thing that only losers do. nt

[LongTomH]

34. He that studieth revenge.........

"He that studieth revenge keepeth his own wounds green, which otherwise would heal and do well." -- John Milton

[LWolf]

48. I agree. nt

[Nye Bevan]

50. Sorry. I can't help hating people who kill people and blow people's limbs off.

I guess I am an imperfect person.

[zappaman]

51. Me too.

And I still think this country is worth living in...so do the 10s of thousands who try to become citizens.

[Logical]

52. Wow, who was this Boy Scout? Serial killer? Any link? n-t

[frogmarch]

53. I see him as

a human being - a despicable one - and I want him to have a fair trial, but I still hate him.