This is not a whine. It's a serious question for DUers.

[Flying Squirrel]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by EarlG (a host of the General Discussion forum).

This is not a whine. It's a serious question for DUers. The Terms Of Service states the following:

Vote for Democrats. Winning elections is — therefore, advocating in favor of Republican nominees or in favor of third-party spoiler candidates that could split the vote and throw an election to our conservative opponents is never permitted on Democratic Underground. But that does not mean that DU members are required to always be completely supportive of Democrats. During the ups-and-downs of politics and policy-making, it is perfectly normal to have mixed feelings about the Democratic officials we worked hard to help elect. When we are not in the heat of election season, members are permitted to post strong criticism or disappointment with our Democratic elected officials, or to express ambivalence about voting for them. In Democratic primaries, members may support whomever they choose. But when general election season begins, DU members must support Democratic nominees (EXCEPT in rare cases where were a non-Democrat is most likely to defeat the conservative alternative, or where there is no possibility of splitting the liberal vote and inadvertently throwing the election to the conservative alternative). For presidential contests, election season begins when both major-party nominees become clear. For non-presidential contests, election season begins on Labor Day. Everyone here on DU needs to work together to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of American government. If you are bashing, trashing, undermining, or depressing turnout for our candidates during election season, we'll assume you are rooting for the other side.

In other words, it's already permissible on DU to support certain other third parties at certain times.

This thread, which received 165 recs yesterday, questioned "Party über alles" - essentially advocating that we should consider voting for third party candidates rather than Democrats who disappoint us, even though doing so could lead to some Democratic Party losses in the short term - and it was not locked. (Please read it carefully before voting in this poll, if you have not done so already.)

Furthermore, in what I believe is an unprecedented move thus far, for two days in a row the Picture Of The Day on the front page has been openly critical of our Democratic president.

It's my opinion, with the Democratic Party of today now nearly indistinguishable from the Republican Party of 40 years ago on some very critical issues, and in many cases to the RIGHT of it; with a vast vacuum to the left of the Democratic Party where our party USED to be, and with the majority of American public opinion on many issues being to the left of this now Right Of Center Democratic party which is nearly as corrupt as its supposed opposition, that Democratic Underground needs to lose the capital D -- if not outright change its name to Liberal Underground -- and allow its members to support certain third parties (no longer labeling them as 'spoilers') at all times so long as those parties conform to specified general platforms. EVEN when doing so could split the vote and result in an undesirable outcome; for, have we not seen already that even when our party has the clear upper hand, they cannot or will not accomplish the things they've promised us? And when a Democratic president was elected, did he truly give us Change? Or did he dash our Hopes? Is it our lot to continue forever voting for the lesser of two ever-becoming-more-evil Evils? Or is there a way out, a possible bloodless Revolution which, as the aforementioned thread suggested, might cost us in the short term but prove to be our salvation in the long term? And would that not be preferable to the more bloody Revolution which history tells us is probably inevitable in the long run otherwise? Short of that, might the change of policy on a major political website finally gain the attention of the Democratic Party and force it back to the left to avoid serious third party challenges?

Serious questions for serious times when the U.S. Constitution is increasingly ignored by those in power.

Should Democratic Underground change with these increasingly uncertain times?

EDIT: To clarify, I am NOT suggesting that Liberals should ALWAYS vote third party from now on - only in those cases where their congresspeople or other elected officials have failed to deliver on most promises (or failed to make a serious attempt to do so) or done the exact opposite of what they have promised, or otherwise seem to have been ineffectual - whether purposely or otherwise - in advancing or advocating for liberal policies and agendas.

4 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Poll closed
	DU should remain as-is for the foreseeable future.
	1 (25%)
	DU should allow its members to advocate for certain liberal third parties with Admin-approved platforms, even when it may cause an undesirable electoral effect.
	3 (75%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[sendero]

1. Wow..

... it took a lot of guts to post that and I have no idea where on the spectrum the site owners stand but I for one used to associate Democrats with "liberal" or "progressive" and anyone who is being honest with their self would have to have a big problem making that association today.

I've been thinking about whether or not the Democratic party is salvagable at this point and the truth is I'm not sure.

[PeaceNikki]

2. OMG, no. no no no, ffs, no.

The thing that baffles me about this seemingly concerted effort to blame the entire party for Obama's budget is how fucking self-defeating it is. Obama is not running again, be pissed at him, voice your concern with your representatives, but FFS, the other Democrats you want to blame/write off are ALL at the state level. Do you want to hand over ALL states to the GOP so they all end up like we did here in WI? Our legislator is FUCKED right now and we lost Feingold. Our districts have been redrawn to ensure it will be for a long time. Support your local Democrats, tell them how you feel. Give your money and/or time to candidates and not the national or state party but do not shoot yourselves in the foot. Do not write off the MANY good Democrats that exist outside of the White House. It's stupid.

[sendero]

4. Name those "good" Democrats..

.... please, what percentage of them are "good"?

[PeaceNikki]

5. Are shitting me? Tammy Baldwin, Gwen Moore, Mark Pocan, Jan Schakowsky, Chris Larson.

Look in your backyard.

[sendero]

10. There are...

.... 60 senators and 200 in the house. You've named less than 1%. And some of the names do not even hold office.

Let's throw in Bernie Sanders though he isn't technically a Democrat.

[PeaceNikki]

11. If I have to prove to any of you why your premise is bullshit, you're beyond help.

[sendero]

14. Sure..

.. go ahead and punt. I don't need help I can see reality, but most here cannot.

There isn't a nickels worth of difference between most Dems and Repug on everything except the social issues. Wonder why elections are so close? Because THERE IS ALMOST NO DISCERNABLE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE PARTIES, it is good-cop bad-cop day in and day out.

[PeaceNikki]

6. Tammy Duckworth

[PeaceNikki]

7. Alan Grayson.

[PeaceNikki]

8. Elizabeth Warren

[Flying Squirrel]

13. Please note that I'm not in favor of ALWAYS voting against Democrats

For example, I would re-elect my Senator Patty Murray in a heartbeat. Even though she has at times disappointed me. I'm talking about cases where the Democratic nominee has seriously disappointed liberals.

[graham4anything]

15. Yes, the seem to actually want that. They do not seem to care about a single social issue

Like Ron and Rand Paul, whom they went out of the way to fall in love with when he did that fillibuster thingydingy and made a fool of himself.

[SidDithers]

3. No. If you're advocating for a third party...

or calling for others to note vote for Democrats, you should be banned.

If you want Liberal Underground, go set it up.

Sid

[graham4anything]

12. Thank you Sid Dithers. Thank you Sid Dithers. Thank you Sid Dithers.The voice of reason.

[Flying Squirrel]

16. And yet 165 people recced a post essentially advocating this yesterday

And the post was not locked nor was the poster banned. Times change, and the times they are a-changing.

[SidDithers]

17. Then go for it...

Come right out and campaign for the Greens, or Libertarians, or whichever non-Democrat you think people should support. Or call for DUers to not support Democrats, if that's what you really feel needs to be done.

Have the courage of your convictions, and say what you think is important to you.

Go for it.

Sid

[Flying Squirrel]

18. I will do so, and if I'm banned as a result

I just may do as you suggest and start Liberal Underground.

[SidDithers]

22. I look forward to your OP...nt

Sid

[PeaceNikki]

20. How many of those calling for abandoning the Democratic Party are involved in it at ALL?

How many of those work with their county, congressional district and state level parties? My guess is very few. They're mostly slactivists who post on DU and sport a few clever bumper stickers. And that is the entirety of their involvement with 'politics'. And MAYBE they vote.

[graham4anything]

9. I think you need to read the statement of Purpose- NO Whining about DU

Statement of Purpose
Discuss politics, issues, and current events. No posts about Israel/Palestine, religion, guns, showbiz, or sports unless there is really big news. No conspiracy theories. No whining about DU


btw, the Ron Paul faction put up about 127 posts that were anti-Obama.
So how do you think there is no anti-Obama stuff here?
Do you have all those people on ignroe?

Why don't you start your own website?

Personally we are in election season now, but I don't have my own site, nor do I want it, so I am not one to demand that the election season rules apply right now, even though they should. Because we are in full election season.

[Recursion]

19. As a straight white male with a job, I also have the privilege of ignoring the differences

between the Democratic and Republican parties. It's a nice gig if you can get it.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

21. When I joined in 2000 -

I came for the activism, the passion, the unabashedly liberal politics (hey, we had GREENS openly posting here back in the day and a few GOPers), the amazing research being done, and solidarity. It felt more of a "democratic" website, less a "Democratic" site. We stood on solid, liberal principles.

And then a Democrat was elected. Things became VERY different here, for quite a few years.

I am a Liberal, first and foremost. I vote Democratic whenever I can (being in SF, that is quite often) but I have voted 3rd Party when I simple could not support the Democratic candidate any further because they had strayed too far from what I view a Democrat to be.

I would love DU to be a liberal "democratic" board, but the owners have made clear it is a "Democratic" site.