Women should "get their tits out" in order to be taken seriously?

[elehhhhna]

Are you fuking kidding me?


I'd really like DUers to weigh in on where they stand on this statement. Talk me off the ledge, here. Has the du population devolved this much?

edit - sorry, see this http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2583041

[FSogol]

1. Where did the statement come from?

[elehhhhna]

5. here, sorry

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2583041

[HappyMe]

6. Post your concern in that thread then.

Did you read that article at all?

[Major Nikon]

112. And miss an opportunity to have another thread about boobies?

Dog forbid.

[MoclipsHumptulips]

121. They are called Breasts

The ones who call them boobies are the boobies.

[opiate69]

124. ...

[Major Nikon]

127. Boobies

[Aerows]

149. That is the cutest

pair of boobies I've ever seen . I love their big blue feet!

[idwiyo]

141. I call mine tits. Or boobies. Sometimes they are girls. They don't really like to be called breasts

because its too official. There words, not mine.

[Major Nikon]

151. Tits

[idwiyo]

152. Well, mine don't fly but they sure float. :)

[opiate69]

153. !

[idwiyo]

154. Was it something I said? Oh my....

[opiate69]

155. There's seriez bizniss to discuss dagnabit! How are we supposed to smugly solve the world's problems

with you cracking funny!!!!!

[idwiyo]

156. Yes, Sir! I hereby pledge to be Series Only!

/tells both Boobies to stop floating and get to Series Bisuness of Beeng Brestees, hang down like Proper Girls (tm) (R) do and forget about being Tities.

/me marches off into the Glorious Future of FemeniZm. With Brestees in proper position.

The End.

[opiate69]

157. I salute your newfound commitment to the outrage brigade!!

[idwiyo]

158. Just you wait till I post pics of me protesting with FEMEN... Nekkid. But not till its warm outside.

HoPe that would be Series enough.

[opiate69]

159. But!! But!!!!.... Nekkid is bad!!!!!!!!

[idwiyo]

160. Yes, pics of Butts too. Butts are great for writing on them. All your butt space are belong to us!

I mean our protest messages.

[opiate69]

162. I cannot lie....

[idwiyo]

164. Both of us gonna go to HeL. And probably get banned too.

[opiate69]

165. lol.. well.. laughter being the best medicine and all.. at least we're enjoying the ride, right?

[idwiyo]

168. Sure do. Someone even UN-ignored me. Must be because I promised to post pics...

And them are mostly the outraged who don't like me... Naughty Grls...

[opiate69]

169. Heh.. I seemed to have gained a few ignores.. maybe I should promise some pics too lol

[Jamastiene]

206. The ones at my house are tufted tits.

They have that special little crest on top, for that added flair.

[Katashi_itto]

199. The technical term is "Golden Bozos"

[Trajan]

28. I'm sorry, but I think you have misrepresented this

it appears to be a story of protest by a female ... not a bunch of salacious frat boys hurling lascivious comments towards bare breasted women ...

the word "tits" makes a brief appearance, but not in the manner you spoke of ...

silly ...

[FSogol]

37. Thanks. Crappy title, but good article. BTW,

How come nudity is fine here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022580960

but not fine for the Tunisian women to make a point?

[Evasporque]

81. mjf :OIJDS :IJFDSfds ,;x

I just typed that with my breasts....

[idwiyo]

94. Damn you! My iPad can take some coffee over it but ...

[HappyMe]

97. You're lucky.

Mine refuse to type. They mumbled something about more money and some sunshine once in awhile damnit.

[FSogol]

111. Message received!

[pkdu]

128. Unison,oomph.muggfcfvvdxs. Mine typed that....

And I'm an overweight white male. ;0)

[Aerows]

150. I wish I had enough

to type with. Alas, I was not gifted heavily in that department.

[idwiyo]

161. Use BlueTooth keyboard and press it against the nipples. It's called Fasilitated Communication.

[Trajan]

2. I have no idea what you are talking about

never heard anybody ever say that here ...

[polly7]

3. What??? Where? nt.

[EOTE]

4. Has anyone actually made that statement?

Or anything like that? I saw an article in GD with the title "If women have to get their tits out to make a point, so be it" which was taken from the actual article title, but that doesn't suggest nearly what your title states. If that's what you're referring to, I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

[NYC_SKP]

7. I assume it's this post?:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022583041

[MineralMan]

8. I'm unfond of the use of "tits" to refer to human breasts.

"Gazongas" is much more genteel.

[talkingmime]

32. Or as Steve Martin put it, "They should never be referred to as (list), only as Hooters."

That was probably 35 years ago. And "tit" is simply derived from "teat" extended to mean the entire breast. It's one of the least offensive terms.

[chillfactor]

9. what a disgusting OP....

was it really necessary to post that?

[Scuba]

10. Your title is the opposite of what the post in question says.

[seabeyond]

11. men are angry.... that so many womens voice is being heard. this is the tool they use, ....

womens sexuality, to try and put the wimminz back in their place. we are having too much CONVERSATION using our brain, and that is not our place. strip down now, so the men can be comfortable in their superiority. we are seeing a continual stream of OPs that are going after women, using womens sexuality to try and shame us.

yes, du has devolved.

[ananda]

12. DU simply reflects the country at large.

Most women feel as though they have to make themselves pornworthy in order to succeed.

This is reflected across the media and is hard to resist or deflect.

[seabeyond]

13. you are correct. pornify. that is the woman and girls role in this society today. nt

[EOTE]

18. LOL. That's what you get from an OP that attacks nothing but strawmen?

I'd love to spend a day inside your imagination. Nothing but evil menz (or is that minz?) subjugating virtuous women. I'm sure it would be a hoot.

[Richardo]

133. A woman wrote the headline.

[Bonobo]

144. She has been brainwashed the patriarchy to use the word "tit"

to take away women's agency (I learned this on DU today).

[kdmorris]

146. That's because she's a tool of men - brainwashed

We women don't have a mind or thoughts of our own when it's determined that we don't. Or, we are just assumed to be men.

And the men here on DU are just a bunch of sexist assholes that are no better than "the country at large"... (in case you need it)

Apparently, you haven't been keeping up...

[LWolf]

14. It's long past time

for women to be taken seriously without having to use their bodies. That's where I stand.

Get them out, keep them under wraps...I don't care. We can do what we want with our bodies, and we don't need them to be on display to be taken seriously.

It's time for the rest of the world to fucking grow up.

[seabeyond]

16. and to really think, sheesh, pulling out the boobs will result in being taken seriously is about as

stupid as a person can get.

[polly7]

19. Or maybe some people just

don't assume that the mere site of boobs should turn adults into quivering masses of lust / outrage / shame ... whatever your flavour of the day is. Which is half of the point ...... making asses of those that do, while at the same time getting attention for whatever it is they feel needs attention .... power of choice and ownership, if you don't like it, don't look.

[seabeyond]

20. at any point polly, are you making an ass out of those that do? not a chance. you do call out the

ones that do make that point though.

part of the problem

[polly7]

21. WTF are you going on about? nt.

[EOTE]

23. I'm fairly sure you're responding to a haiku.

Or perhaps a limerick? Regardless, I'm fairly sure that it's not intended to be taken literally (if it's even possible to take word soup literally).

[Bonobo]

148. I thought it might be a palindrome.

Turns out I was wrong, but it was the only way I could figure why someone might string together such an odd juxtaposition of words.

[nadinbrzezinski]

163. I gotta say it

Head hurts.

[LWolf]

24. Yes.

In my lifetime, getting someone to pay attention to you has always been about flaunting what you've got. As a young woman, I felt stalked and harassed where ever I was; the only attention I got was for my body. I learned to hide it under loose clothing, go about without make-up or hair styles, trying to deflect attention. It seemed like that was the only value I had to others. Even other women, who were constantly urging me to be more decorative. As an older woman who no longer attracts that kind of attention, I find that some people take me seriously. Others are intimidated because I'm not passive, and I don't respond to attempts to bully. Professionally, every year I have a few attempts to send a man in to intimidate me with his testosterone. It never works.

There are plenty of people in our culture that value women for who we are, but our culture as a whole still values body over mind and heart, still sees women as somehow less than men, in my opinion.

If we were truly taken seriously, breasts out, breasts in...it wouldn't matter.

[JVS]

25. It depends on what is being protested and the cultural context of the nudity.

If a woman is protesting something like Mid-Eastern restrictions on what women are allowed to wear and strictly limited access to be present in the public sphere, then appearing naked in public is a very strong act of civil disobedience.

If it is a woman protesting the WTO, it's kind of an off topic attention-grabbing stunt.

[seabeyond]

27. i disagree. it always harms the womans cause. nt

[Kurovski]

131. While you are attempting to control what others do with their bodies,

Could you please attempt to also control your syntax?

Even if it's for what you feel is a good cause, you are attempting to maneuver control over another woman's choices regarding her body.

It's not as if we're discussing women who have been abused and railroaded, raped and manipulated into prostitution via the sex slave trade.

Even if you want to argue in abstractions and slippery-slopes, you're taking autonomy from another based on your beliefs.

Having said that, it appears we have a larger number of provocative threads being posted with knowledge aforethought as to the raucous outcome.

That's the nature of forums, so, just a possible motivation. Articles Posted for possible provocation, rather than from any third wave feminist urgency.

Either way. Whatever.

I'm due for my regular DU break.

[RetroLounge]

137. "always harms the womans cause"

META



RL

[LadyHawkAZ]

89. IT DOES GET TAKEN SERIOUSLY IN THE MIDDLE EAST!!!

Jesus H. People took it seriously enough two years ago that Elmahdy had to seek asylum in Sweden:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliaa_Magda_Elmahdy

You realize you are arguing the side of the people that harassed her? This is not America. These women don't have the luxury of deciding low-cut or covered in the morning. They have one option only- YOUR option, cover it up so you don't excite the men- or they risk being killed. To them, this IS protest. Step out of the first world problems for a minute and give the girl the goddamn support she's earned.

[tammywammy]

103. +1 n/t

[polly7]

105. Well said, LadyHawk. nt.

[idwiyo]

116. Don't bother. She can't CONTROL what FEMEN does, she can't FORCE them to do what SHE wants them to

do, therefore FEMEN is wrong and doesn't deserve support.

Pure and simple friggin hypocrite.

[RetroLounge]

138. She's been looking for the FEMEN alert button all day

can't find it...

RL

[idwiyo]

139. I wonder how many alerts were sent today? Damn,, I miss META sometimes.

[Number23]

142. I am astounded, seriously DUMBFOUNDED that your point even had to be made

I am totally at a loss that some people appear to have completely (deliberately?) overlooked the fact that in the Middle East, what this woman has done is more brave than I'm betting anything that any of them have ever done.

Step out of the first world problems for a minute and give the girl the goddamn support she's earned.

Nail, meet hammer. And I'm really thinking that you are on to something with your "first world" comment. There's probably alot to that and more than some may be comfortable admitting or even fully aware of.

[stevenleser]

198. 1000 times braver and 10,000 times more effective for feminism than anything anyone on DU has done.

I'm in awe really. When is the last time someone has really put their lives seriously at risk for a progressive cause like this.

[Richardo]

136. She's in Tunisia, do you not get that? Perhaps you'd be happier if she self-immolated...

...like poor Mohamed Bouazizi.

[nadinbrzezinski]

166. Since this hapened in downtown San Diego

Wait, it did not...it happened in Tunis, where social mores are radically different from the US...a place where you need to be modest even when seeking medical care.

Hers was an act of bravery, and a challenge to the patriarchy.

Care to post the photos from the Castro district again...for the false equivalency. This time be nice and have a NSFW label in the header please...

[JTFrog]

41. +1 n/t

[winter is coming]

15. Not necessarily, but actually reading the stuff they complain about would be a good idea. n/t

[MADem]

17. Those are not the words of a DUer. They're the words of the cited article.

Context, first. Clicking the link, second. Keeping the conversation in the original thread, third.

Way too much work to weigh in on something that is more appropriate for the discussion in the original link.

[cthulu2016]

22. This belongs in Meta... which doesn't exist

[hughee99]

26. The ARTICLE (not the DUer) supports women using their sexuality to gain attention

for a cause. The author of the article makes this statement in a very crass way.

Should this not be a valid topic for discussion on the DU? What lengths should a person go to for their issues?

I'm not a woman. I'm not going to presume to tell a women what she should or shouldn't do with her body. If she chooses to use it to gain attention for a cause, I don't support trying to shame her into shutting up.

[Evoman]

29. There has got to be better ways to protest.

This naked stuff.... I get how its a protest against shaming women for their sexuality, but I don't like it. It gives the cretins what they want.... To ogle and degrade. They get to have their cake (ogling nude women) and eat it too (complain about the woman's morality).

[seabeyond]

31. gives the cretins what they want.... To ogle and degrade.

point and so fuckin obvious i do not get anyone pretending otherwise. i would really like to see who actually created the org thinking probably a man. seems pussy riot was thought up by two men with issues using women to get their message out. yea.

[Sissyk]

42. You know, seabeyond.

Because someone has a different opinion than you, does not mean t hey are pretending to not fucking get it. People have different opinions. Some feminist do not see nudity as the shameful, disgracful thing that these religous fanatics in Tunisia do.

We can disagree about things and still both be feminist.

[seabeyond]

43. do not see nudity as the shameful, disgracful thing

nothing like dishonestly interpreting what i say to make a worthless point sissy. point out where i said nakedness is shameful. i didnt. and this is the inherent dishonest argument so often used addressing my posts.

[Sissyk]

47. You said

Nudity always hurts the women's cause. Why do you feel that wayN

And, I never said you. I believe I said some. Didn't point out anyone.

[seabeyond]

49. there are plenty of post that present my opinion. nt

[Sissyk]

54. Thanks for the discussion!

[seabeyond]

57. i have bought into that in the past. when i saw you represent what i say in non truth, i no longer

felt the need to have a good faith discussion. kinda like how you immediately addressed my post. i did not say that. and even further discussion, would be more of the same. when i have posters that continually address my posts in that manner, i no longer try a discussion.

live and learn.

when what i actually post is addressed, i will try again.

[Sissyk]

62. Where and what did i repressent

that you said that was not true?

You do know people can have conversationss and discuss things that don't point at the person they are posting to, correct? Should I always put in a statement saying "i don't mean you"?

I was wanting to have a conversation with you because i truly think we have a lot in common from reading about your home life and thought I might understand where you are coming from her, but ah well.

Take care!

[Raine1967]

171. You tried Sissy.

I understood what you were saying.


Here is the thing. (the following is my opinion and mine alone)

There is no one group of women that get to decide what feminism is. There are segments here on DU that seem to think quite the opposite. When challenged, they claim they are victims to the patriarchy. If it happens to be a woman that challenges this segment, the woman doing the challenging they have been accused of supporting the patriarchy, being an MRA supporter or just not knowledgeable enough to *get* the plight of women.

I say this because I was accused of all of those things for challenging that segment of DU.

I'm not a victim. I disagree with some feminist opinions here on DU. IMO, that doesn't make me a lessor woman, or a lessor feminist. I disagree. Why? They don't get the chance to define me.

And I think using the word 'Tit' as tho it were offensive is about as low as things can be when we start to really honestly talk about equality. For the record, I appreciate the OP. I think it was a valid question and worthy of discussion. Women have FAR FAR bigger fish to fry with regard to equality. This board spent an entire day discussing TITS. the word Tits became more important than a discussion about a woman, a sister-- who chose to use her body to fight a TRUE patriarchy.
.


That said, discussion -- especially on a message board -- should allow for honest disagreement. It is my opinion that you ran into something that is almost the opposite.

Almost.

IMO it makes me a woman who would rather not create enemies to further the cause of feminsim. I truly and honestly believe that there are far more men on DU that understand feminism and what we seek than the few who continually clam that men on DU are just 'pigs' and insensitive to what women want to achieve in the real world.

Truth be told, I generally find men and women on DU to be very supportive of women's equality.

OK, I am done being nice. (not directed at you Sissy)

Keerist. A woman decides to show her breasts for a damn cause is being villainized by some DU'rs for supporting her?



And i am going to say this:

PLEASE , DON'T try to tell me I don't understand.

I do.

[Sissyk]

200. Thanks, Raine1967.

Great post will lots of good points.

I wasn't gonna answer you but the post was bumped by someone else (lol) so I thought I'd go ahead and tell you I read it, and wasn't ignoring you.

And, thanks for not ignoring me. There seems to be a bunch that are. lol.

[Raine1967]

201. Wasn't sweating it at all.

This thread got off the charts!

I like reading you around this DU place!

[EOTE]

61. LOL at "dishonestly interpreting"...

Hello pot, I'd like to introduce you to kettle.

[sabrina 1]

202. Funny, what this woman is actually doing is punishing those men in her culture who

forbid women to expose any part of their bodies, as if they were dirty or something. Covering them up to protect those poor, innocent men from 'sinning'.

I find the demand that women cover their bodies to be extremely anti-woman and an insult, implying that there is something shameful about the female body, that it is dirty or something.

Giving them what they want would be to wear a Burqua lest the poor dears be unable to control themselves and commit sin. Too bad, they need to grow up. Meantime women's bodies should be viewed as natural, as they used to be outside of the uptight, western culture we belong to, which is eerily similar in that regard to the fundie cultures this woman is protesting.

[seabeyond]

203. the country where they go topless and wear bikinis on the beaches. nt

[sabrina 1]

204. Why do you object to the female body?

[Richardo]

134. Not in Tunisia

I guess she could have self-immolated like poor Mohamed Bouazizi.

[Summer Hathaway]

180. And we all know

that 'the cretins' - aka the entire male population - do nothing but ogle and degrade women.

The fact that you don't like "this naked stuff" is your problem, not everyone else's. In a totally ridiculous attempt to validate that puritanical stance, it becomes increasingly necessary to cast all men in the role of "oglers and degraders" - which you and your cohorts do at every opportunity.

How many replies on this board are necessary to convince you, and your echo-chamber-dwelling 'sisters', that the vast majority of DUers - and people as a whole - do NOT accept your skewed view of things?

But by all means, continue to put your fingers in your ears while singing that same old song of persecution - you'll always have your fellow members of the Sisterhood of the Traveling Pantload to cheer you on.

[Evoman]

183. whoa, relax.

What's wrong with wanting women to be heard without having to go naked? I'm not a fucking prude, I'm not part of any club, and I love naked women. And I'm not talking about all fucking men, only the ones that fit the "ogling cretins" definition. There are guys who don't give a shit about women's issues, constantly deflect discussions, put down women for getting upset about their being pigs, and all of a sudden they are huge feminists when the woman protests naked.

Its bullshit.

If a woman wants to protest naked, fine. Go the fuck ahead. But I'm not apologizing for wishing you didn't have to expose yourself to the inevitable jeers of school age acting pricks just to get your point across. If that's a skewed view, then fuck it..I don't care.



On edit: And BTW, I Am a man, so this fucking idea that I'm talking about all men being ogling, degrading shit heads is bust. So fucking sick of this lame "putting down all men" bullshit. There are good men out here. Men who care about women and their issues, and their fights without needing to see their breasts to care. I hope I'm seen as one of those men, though there are better than I. But pricks who make jokes, and put down women for their "tone" can go fuck themselves.

Double edit: fixing mistakes caused by trying to write a post on a damn tablet.

[Summer Hathaway]

184. Last things first

"And BTW, I Am a man, so this fucking idea that I'm talking about all men being ogling, degrading shit heads is bust."

Your gender has nothing to do with it - your words do. And it is your words that I was addressing.

"If a woman wants to protest naked, fine. But I'm not apologizing for wishing you didn't have to expose yourself to the inevitable jeers of school age acting pricks just to get your point across."

Who said that women "have" to expose themselves to be heard? History is full of women who made themselves heard while being fully clothed. No woman "has" to do a particular thing to be heard - but she is free to choose exactly how she will convey her message.

Are you suggesting that women should refrain from doing anything they deem appropriate on the basis that they will be exposed to "the inevitable jeers"? If every woman who ever protested, or put herself on the line in the furtherance of women's rights, refrained from behaving in a way that prompted "jeers", the suffrargettes would have stayed at home and tended to their embroidery, rather than venture into the streets where they might be subjected to obscene taunts.

"There are good men out here. Men who care about women and their issues, and their fights without needing to see their breasts to care."

Yes, there are a LOT of good men out there. And they don't "need" to see a woman's breasts to care about their issues. But you, however, and your colleagues, persist in portraying the men who admire and respect Amina as only doing so because they saw her tits.

According to some, there could be no other possible explanation for their respect. That's because all men are pigs. Right?

As I've said elsewhere, perhaps the admiration and respect held for Amina, by men and women alike, is due to the fact that she is an independent female who chooses to express herself as she sees most effective, at no small risk to her own well-being, instead of spending her days on a message board describing the agonies of having to endure a man opening a door for her.

You all seem to think that you've cornered the men on this board: If they DON'T support Amina, it's because they don't care about women's rights. If they DO support her, it's only because they enjoy ogling her breasts.

Do you really think the vast majority of posters here are fuckin' STUPID enough to not see through that little charade?

[Evoman]

188. WTF.

I'm not sure I'm gonna get this through, since you think you know me so fucking well, but I DON'T THINK ALL MEN ARE PIGS. I don't. I can't. I know too many good men.

I don't why you keep making stuff up about what I think, but I'm glad people are supporting Amina. I have no problems with that. I'm happy about it. Glad. Happy. Good. Do I gotta keep saying it? I don't have any issues with that at all. What I take issue with is the hypocrisy of the certain, individual men (not all men, got it? Understand?) who don't give a shit about feminism or their issues, but somehow end up defending it when a women protests naked.

But you don't give a shit what I fucking say, do you? You put me in a little fucking box and judged me. And you accuse me of putting on a charade? When you are the one that brings up the door opening issue, of which NO ONE COMPLAINED ABOUT THE OPENING OF DOORs. Seriously?

Enough of this. You aren't going to stop thinking of me as some sort of man hater who plays games, so I'm not gonna bother trying to change your mind. The truth is I don't play games. My life may be too fucking short to play games. I do what I do, and I say what I say, because I care about women's rights and their issues, whether they are naked or not.

[Summer Hathaway]

193. I appreciate the irony.

You take umbrage at someone "putting you in a box and judging you".

And yet that is exactly what you are doing when you insist that there are men who who don't give a shit about feminism or their issues, but somehow end up defending it when a women protests naked.

How do YOU know which men have a sincere interest in the topic, and those who are only interested because this woman protested naked? The truth is you DON'T know any such thing. But that doesn't stop you from insisting you do.

[Evoman]

195. So you don't think any men fit my description?

Hmmmm......

[Summer Hathaway]

196. I wouldn't know.

I didn't go searching through all of the threads on the topic of naked protesting, check everyone's name, and then compare that list to threads about women protesting clothed to see if the same men commented or not.

[idwiyo]

30. Get over yourself. I will decide what to do with my body. Including walking around

naked if I decide to do so.

And do get help with your obsession with female body parts.

[Sissyk]

44. +

Some people are not realizing that this could get these women killed. Religious sick fucking MEN wanted to keep the women there clothed and SILENT. That is truly a case of telling them to STFU.

[idwiyo]

48. Am astounded at the level of vitriol these women get from people who actually call themselves

Feminists on DU. Mind boggling. It's not damn enough most of those girls live in places where they can be killed simply because the are women, not fucking enough they risk their lives doing what they can to fight it. NO, the people who proclaim they are protecting those girls rights ARE TRYING TO CONTROL what they do too. And get outraged because girls don't give a fuck and just keep doing what they think is right.

Fucking irony.

[Sissyk]

55. For a few here on DU

it seems to be "Do it my way, or you're doing it wrong". Thats what pisses me off.

I don't even give a shit about the word tits. Tits, tits, tits. Shoot me.

[idwiyo]

59. TITS! I LOVE MY TITS!!! And my CUNT! BEST DAMN THING EVER!!!

I wonder how many alerts this is going to get.

Jury, those are MY BODY PARTS. I do love them and I will decide what I lovingly will call them, not some over sensitive person on DU. Others can decide what words to use for THEIR bodies and that is how it should be!

[Sissyk]

66. See, here's the deal!

You are entitled to use any words you would like, in my opinion, in relation to your own body. It surely does not piss me off.

With that said, cunt has never been one of my words. I don't like it, but again, I agree with your right to use it..

See how easy that is?

[idwiyo]

68. Don't really care for the word myself because it sounds weird to my ear, nothing else.

Wouldn't dream to use it against anyone else, of course.

And agree its that damn easy.

[HappyMe]

72. Astonishingly easy.

I don't use cunt either. If someone else uses it, I am not going to blow a gasket.

[opiate69]

70. Ahh.. but you see, there's only one "true" type of feminist...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2583421

[idwiyo]

75. Yeah... Not really much I can say but (see below):

Am off to plan my next nudist vacation. Of course I only do that to degrade myself and every single woman on Earth by showing my tits and rest or my body to the prying eyes of nudist pig-men. And non-nudist too, because most of the nudist beaches are open to everyone.

While planning the above I am going to buy some very short skirts and open revealing tops to further emphasise how deprived, brainwashed and subservient to the patriarchy I am.

AND to top it of I think I am going to look at some porn. Just because.

[polly7]

76. Woot! Have fun! LOL nt.

[opiate69]

77. Sounds like a deliciously wicked Spring Fertility Festival weekend itinerary!

Have fun!

[EOTE]

78. Pig men everywhere thank you for your service.

Our plan to pornify the world is nearly complete. Soon, due to global warming, most of the world will be beachfront property. My fellow pig men and I will ensure that all that new-found, beachfront property will be NUDE beachfront property! Mwuah hahahahahaha! Mwahahahahaha!

[idwiyo]

84. Cant wait!

I seriously wish damn prudes everywhere will get the hell over their inhibitions finally.

Las Palmas naked beach is COVERED literally COVERED by... Wait for it... FAMILIES with CHILDREN.
ALL of them NAKED: Mum, Dad, GrandMa, GrandPa, kids, dog... Can you imagine? The horror? And to top it of locals don't care. No demonstrations against nudity, not even a single disapproving look.

In two weeks there I didn't notice one single pig-man patrolling the beach, oppressing the women and degrading them with patriarchy. I think they all joined the nudists by now. I mean, how can you oppress and degrade someone who laughs at you and invites you to get undressed and enjoy the sun and swim?

[EOTE]

87. How can we? We're just that good.

Oppression and degradation are our primary skills. And don't think for a second we weren't on patrol, we just want to give the beach goers the illusion of safety.

Honestly though, the U.S. could learn several things from Spain. The fact that they neither shame nor drool over the naked female form is one of them.

[tblue37]

143. Wait--what? they let the DOGS go naked?

Well, I never!

[idwiyo]

145. For all beaches to be declared nudist, silly! I'll let the dogs decide for themselves, LOL.

[randome]

92. {Snort!} I mean, 'Oink!'

[LittleBlue]

109. ...

Pig-men

Nearly fell out of my chair laughing. Thanks for brightening my day.

[idwiyo]

113. You are welcome :)

[randome]

96. Is there a certificate of authenticity, too?

[opiate69]

98. No.. but if you order now, we'll throw in these handmade pins for free!!

[HappyMe]

53. Thank you.

It's an entirely different culture. They are truly kicking some ass by doing this.

I wonder how many saw the word 'tits', freaked out, and didn't bother to read the entire article. A case of some women here telling another woman to sit down and shut the fuck up. The same damn thing they complain happens to them. Hypocritical x100.

[Sissyk]

56. I just don't get it sometimes.

Maybe it's one of our first world problems. Arguing on a discussion board whether some woman in Tunisia protest in the right way or not. And then about if men on DU are giggling over tits, or bringing the discussion here just to giggle, or feminist telling men they have no point since they enjoy nudity. Freaks me out!

[HappyMe]

82. The fact the Tunesian woman could very well

be killed for this doesn't seem to faze them. I guess bravery to some is hiding behind a screen and passing judgement on a bunch of other men and women they disagree with.

[idwiyo]

107. They don't give a shit about that woman because they can't control what she does. Or any of the

FEMEN women for that matter. FEMEN would likely tell them to fuck off if they actually tried, therefore FEMEN should be dismissed, ridiculed and belittled.

Hypocrisy at its best.



Of course, posting on DU and fighting for equal rights by typing furiously on keyboard in safety of one's own home is The Only Way to advance those rights.

[randome]

33. Are they being taken seriously now?

[lumberjack_jeff]

34. Her body, her choice. n/t

[randome]

36. Yes, but your username invalidates your opinion.

We all know what lumberjacks want.

[dawg]

63. He's a lumberjack, but he's okay.

He sleeps all night and he works all day!

[edbermac]

129. Many of my best friends are lumberjacks and only a few of them are transvestites.

[EOTE]

64. Sweet, sweet timber. :drool: nt.

[idwiyo]

71. +1

[HappyMe]

35. It's her body, her decision.

She should sit down and shut the fuck up because you don't like the method of her protest?

[Sissyk]

38. Her body, her choice.

Simple.

Another thing, no one can tell me I'm not a femist because some women protest by being nude and I don't have a problem with the female naked body.

If you are on the ledge because some women showed their tits, I don't know what to say to get you to step back.

[gollygee]

39. For those who don't understand why that thread irritates people

The same people who will get upset at/by or dismiss/belittle feminists when they speak out, suddenly become huge fans of feminists speaking out when they take their clothes off at the same time.

[JTFrog]

40. Amazing isn't it? n/t

[seabeyond]

45. yes. nt

[RC]

58. Maybe it is because they are not antagonizing and blaming all/most men in general as the root of

their problems
It is their culture, their government, heavily influenced by fundamentalist religion.

[JTFrog]

65. Ah yes, the tone argument.

[opiate69]

73. Right.. because civility, tact, and diplomacy are such worthless concepts.

[Luminous Animal]

132. The best feminist is mute and naked.

[MadrasT]

69. Exactly this (n/t)

[redqueen]

74. Yep. Either their feminism will be porn-compliant, or it will be bullshit, apparently. nt

[HappyMe]

80. The difference here is

you can't be killed for your views. Amina can.

[HiPointDem]

83. +1

[muriel_volestrangler]

86. Then people should reply to those individuals in that thread

and point out their double standard with links to what they've said before, rather than starting a new thread just to bemoan the attitude of non-specific DUers that we are somehow supposed to know have changed their attitude.

[Kurovski]

135. That would be the best idea yet.

One perfectly suited to Meta. But...

the habitual generalization has gotten out of hand, and to a toxic degree.

[elehhhhna]

88. You said that perfectly. Thank you. My OP was about the state of DU...

[idwiyo]

108. Just for you: I find the outrage over what FEMEN does by self-described feminists here hypocritical.

They can't control FEMEN, can't force them to do what they want them to do, can't make them behave the way they want them behave. They resolve into attacking FEMEN or anyone who shows any support for FEMEN instead. Nice job fighting for equal rights.

[MoclipsHumptulips]

123. Thank you. n/t.

[randome]

130. Then there are those who are in favor of BOTH.

The two mindsets do not have to be mutually exclusive.

[nadinbrzezinski]

167. You might want to check

The discussions between American feminists (one of many factions) and Egyptian feminists.

Context is like everything. I am also willing to bet that those Egyptian women are closer in culture and problems to the Tunisian counterparts than any American feminist

[Starry Messenger]

175. Oh, I think they understood.

They just don't like being called on it.

[LittleBlue]

46. They must get their tits out to

cut through the noise. There are lots of vanilla protests that create noise, and one more about women in Tunisia would get lost in the crowd.

But going topless instantly sets them apart using a tried and true method- sex. It sells, and it is very effective in gaining attention.

If they want to be noticed, it's a good strategy.

[LiberalLoner]

101. +1

[Kurovski]

172. It could be said that you are looking at it from a western point of view. The movement seems

to be more direct than that.

We were told quite clearly why she was topless. she wrote it on her body.

She was challenging the religious restraints and edicts on her sex and sexuality.

Her body has nothing to do with a man's honor. the action, coupled with the words make it clear and profound.

It appears you are sexualising her action. She's just nude. She is sitting there smoking a cig. she's not masturbating, is she?

Even Europeans (westerners) do not continually confuse sex and nudity to the degree we do here in USA.

Of course, much of the middle east is totally fucked-up on the issue...enter, Femen and Amina.

[Cleita]

50. Sorry to say I think it has.

It's so different from the conversations we had here five years ago. I'm not saying the feminists have had it easy here, but the talk is getting trashier and more insensitive towards various other groups as well as feminists.

[rucky]

51. Are we supposed to support Femen or not?

I truly am confused as to how the sides are being drawn here in relation to this protest. Could somebody just list the main arguements from each side, because the reactions are hard to follow.

[stevenleser]

60. Only you can decide that. The simple breakdown is...

Femen are second wave feminists who came up with the idea of using their nudity as a weapon in their fight for equal rights for women and against porn and prostitution. I break it down more here http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2583717

- They protest religions and institutions they feel are anti women like the Vatican, the Russian Orthodox Church and Islam in general.

- They often protest at major sporting events because they feel that these events are magnets for prostitution tourism.

- Their protests often get a lot of attention from the media and otherwise for reasons I describe in my above link.

[elehhhhna]

90. secondwave my heinie - women and men in the 60's used nudity. Hello?

Yoko ring a bell?

These feminist's tactics are disingenuous imo

[stevenleser]

95. Second wave in terms of feminist beliefs

Femen are anti-porn and anti-prostitution.

Disengenuous? Would you say the same if they self-immolated? They seem to get themselves thrown in bad jails (jails you dont want to find yourself in, not like jails in the US and Western Europe) and risk their lives. That sounds pretty genuine to me.

[Kurovski]

174. I think the middle east has ushered in the fourth wave. But Time will tell.

I don't think we have a "manifesto", so to speak, in the way there was with the third wave.

I've looked, but haven't found one, other than the women involved in the Arab spring. This looks very much like the second part to the arab spring, which has been slipping into authoritarian waters.

[redqueen]

52. The fact that a self-described feminist said that makes me sad.

Women in the ME live in a different environment.

Her wording leaves much to be desired.

[dawg]

67. The author made a horrible choice of words for the article.

I'm not well enough informed to have an opinion on the actual protest, except to say that no one should ever feel they have to sexualize themselves in order to get attention.

[Bicoastal]

79. This sort of thing used to not be allowed here.

I'm not talking about about the topic of conversation; I'm talking about starting a new thread to specifically discuss the validity of a different OP. Used to be, the mods would immediately lock the thread and tell everyone involved to go back to the original thread if they want to discuss it.

This seems like an obvious attempt to be a shit-stirrer.

[CBGLuthier]

118. we also used to not allow pictures of dangling bits of genitalia

the coarsening of DU.

[Le Taz Hot]

85. They do it because they can get away with it

and they know it. And notice, the women are always young and attractive. This, "Oh, it's all about getting attention to a topic" is complete bullshit. If "tits" are so fascinating and get attention then I would think that the stature/age of the "tits" depicted would offer up greater variety, i.e., older women, saggier "tits," overweight women, you know the ones society has deemed unattractive.

Men (and their women supporters) can CHOOSE to evolve or they can CHOOSE to remain unenlightened, immature boors.

Come back from the ledge because these posts are MEANT to spark a reaction and gain attention for the thread author. Don't give them the satisfaction 'cause you're NEVER going to change their mind.

[randome]

91. I don't see it as 'unenlightened' and 'immature' to admire good-looking women's bodies.

Anymore than it is to enjoy chocolate over vanilla. That has little to do with being in favor of a protest.

Some of us can separate our sexual admiration from our philosophical beliefs. And we can acknowledge both, too.

[Le Taz Hot]

93. You're not really going to play that with me, are you?

I thought we came to understand one another some time back.

[Summer Hathaway]

176. The more I read from

"the contingent" here, the more obvious it seems that they consider sexuality to be part of sexism, i.e. men who admire and appreciate a woman's body are displaying 'sexist behavior'.

From many of their comments, they seem to believe that if a man is admiring of a woman's body, it serves as proof positive that THAT is the only thing such a man would find admirable or alluring, somehow excluding any notion that he might also admire her intellect, her accomplishments, her thoughts and ideas, etc.

And heaven forefend that sexual arousal might even play a part in man's appreciation of a woman's body - even though such arousal is natural and an integral part of being human.

For all of their cries about being strong, independent women, they consistently display what amounts to an unnatural phobia about men and women interacting with each other on a sexual level. All flirting, exchanges of sexual banter - anything that even remotely smacks of enjoying one's sensuality when interacting with males is immediately pounced upon as being demonstrative of "men being pigs with one-track minds", and the women who interact with them as being mindless females whose every move is calculated solely to be pleasing to men.

To put it simply, I enjoy being a girl! I enjoy displaying my sensuality and my sexuality. I enjoy the company of men; I enjoy the sexual banter that goes on between the sexes. I enjoy being flirtatious, and being flirted with in kind. And NONE of the above makes me less of a feminist.

It strikes me, from my viewing of posts from "the contingent", that what they really want is a sexless society, where no one is permitted to be aroused by, or admiring of, the opposite sex in any way. They can have that ultimate goal - I want no part of it. And neither do most feminists I know.

[randome]

177. As usual, you have described things eloquently.

[Summer Hathaway]

178. Thank you so much.

I was not quite sure that I had communicated my thoughts as succinctly as I might have.

[treestar]

190. Are you pretty young?

It is nice to think things have improved that much, then.

Older women will have experienced the time when indeed it was the only thing to be admired for (maybe along with cooking ability).

[Summer Hathaway]

192. Pretty young?

Well, I like to think so. But I am in my sixties.

My post was specifically about the here and now, and what is happening on DU; i.e. the contingent of self-proclaimed 'feminists' who find sexism in every in every interaction between men and women.

[treestar]

194. I don't see that.

Or it could be said there is some sexism in most transactions still. But it's not personal. It is a societal thing that can still be changed.

It is a good thing if you enjoy it and you must remember the days when you could not do so without criticism or name calling that undermines the fun. I'm only in my 50s and I remember being called "forward" just for flirting or showing interest. It was meant to teach me something about who gets to choose.

[stevenleser]

100. They're not 'getting away with it' at all. Not by a long shot.

Several Femen folks are languishing in jails after their protests, and not nice jails like here in the US or western Europe.

The Femen activist who did this in Tunisia may end up facing the death penalty.

You are going to have to try some other angle to dismiss them.

[Le Taz Hot]

104. I was referring to the poster and

and the real reason these threads are offered up.

[jeff47]

110. You might want to read the relevant article before claiming that

The woman in question is in danger of being stoned to death and had to flee her country.

[grantcart]

102. Wake me up when we get back to 1976.

In 1976 any male suggesting it would have been encouraged to show that he has the 'balls' to support the move before he opened his mouth.

[upaloopa]

106. Doing nude protests is very old. Not just women do nude

protest. Going nude attracts attention and allows the message to be spread to a larger audience. It is not a sexist thing. You would not have heard about this protest if it wasn't for the nudity.

[Go Vols]

173. +1

?13

[darkangel218]

114. What about PETA or many others who protest naked?

Please!

There are so many other circumstances where you can go after nudity, but not when someone uses for protest.


DA.

[randome]

115. Unless you're protesting nudity.

Then it's somewhat ironic.

[TeeYiYi]

117. Made me laugh. :D ...nt

TYY

[darkangel218]

119. No one is coercing or abusing or forcing these protesters into doing so

They have a point to make and they make it the best they can. We don't walk in their shoes, so freaking stop judging I say.

[randome]

120. But they're not wearing any...never mind.

You do know we are, like, 99% in agreement on this, don't you?

[darkangel218]

122. Yes i know. i was refering to the OP.

[randome]

126. Got it.

[Warren DeMontague]

205. That's what's known in the parlance as a "Popcorn Truck Jackknifed on the 405"

All you need is to get circumcision or the Olive Garden in there somehow, and DU's got shit to do for the rest of the year.

[nadinbrzezinski]

125. The human body is beautiful

Even when engaging in protest, which this is the case.

[bhikkhu]

140. In a culture where "honor killings" have been an issue, it was a powerful statement

I only read about this briefly and recently, but the girl shows some inspiring .courage.

That would be where I stand on it...I don't actually understand the point of the OP otherwise - has there been devolution here? And what would that have to do with a girl in Tunisia?

[BainsBane]

185. Femen operates all around the world

Not just in Tunisia. I believe that began in Russia.

[Honeycombe8]

147. I guess it gets attention? That's what activism is about.

Shock and awe. Personally, I think it's sexist that women go this extreme, since it only reinforces the view that women are sex objects.

In the middle east, the women can get away with doing so much less than that, and still be regarded as evil and worthy of being killed, so they don't have to go this far to get attention, in those countries. Esp since that's what women are asking for in those countries...the right to be naked. Doesn't make sense to me. It seems to reinforce the strict laws of those countries, as in "see what happens when women think they have rights? Debauchery."

But it's not my country, so none of my business.

[DirkGently]

170. I'll bite, even though this is a call-out OP, which isn't cool.

First off, I have to agree with everyone who's said that if you take issue with a specific poster's OP or post, the place to address that is in the thread itself.

This thing where people start a whole new thread to characterize what other people supposedly said elsewhere as being outrageous or wrong is a kind of a cheap shot. In this case, the quoted headline is used to imply the exact opposite tone of that OP, which I just read, which supports women activists doing something they've chosen to do to make a statement they've chosen to make.

As for the substance of the thing, context does matter. I'm struck by the quote, "My body belongs to me, and is not the source of anyone's honor."

Sounds to me like a direct challenge to one of the oldest, most core sources of gender oppression, which is that female sexuality and the female body are male possessions and a source of shame. Something we all must control, lest it somehow run amok. Which is of course incredibly noxious bullshit. And, as we regularly note in horror, in some Middle East cultures, this is taken to literal extremes, where fathers and brothers and uncles claim the right to kill their daughters and sisters and nieces for crimes like talking to men without permission or wearing the wrong clothes.

I don't see any way to get incensed about the impropriety of this form of protest unless you are, in some way, in agreement with the misogynistic principle that women's bodies ARE subject to everyone else's control and ownership. Looks to me like we've even got a disturbing dollop of "men can't be responsible for how crazy they'll get if they see something (like a breast) that might stimulate them."

Allow me to suggest that the moral issue is that men need to take a different view of women's bodies, rather than that women need to carefully cover themselves at all times.

Isn't demystifying breasts pretty much a cultural no-brainer? Why on Earth is it even possible for people to get worked up, sexually, morally, aesthetically, or otherwise, about a human chest, with or without mammary glands? Is it possible that the fact that breasts are such an easy a way to generate shock and controversy illustrative of the precise problem Amina & Co. are trying to address?

Maybe if we didn't jump up and down and squeal every time we saw a few breasts, we'd get that there are people attached to them.

Maybe that's part of Amina and Femen's point.

I support this, and past that, I get out of its way.

[liberal_at_heart]

179. they shouldn't have to get them out but they shouldn't have to put them away either.

Getting them out or putting them away does not enhance or diminish the statement the women are making. The statement stands on its own.

[Raine1967]

181. Can I assume that this is the opinion you took from think you posted?

If so, I have to tell you, NO.

I have have breasts, I also have the ability to think beyond my breasts. I'm a woman, I am complicated.

Women should not HAVE TO "'get their tits out' in order to be taken seriously. That is a direct answer to your question. What we have in America (WRT to women and equality) is far different from what women have in other nations. I'm not in a place to judge how a sister chooses to protest. If she wants to show her breasts, or tits -- I will support her.

I'm gonna shout this out:

I LIKE WHEN WOMEN TAKE BACK WORDS THAT MEN USED TO USE TO DEMEAN US.

However, I want to clarify this... I don't think men should use said words. And to be really honest, most men -- pretty much ALL, to be honest -- on DU don't.

However, with protest -- sometimes we need to have extremes to get attention. AS MUCH AS SOME WOULD LIKE TO MAKE IT ABOUT TIT'S AND BOOBS -- IT IS ABOUT GETING ATTENTION.


Ask Dan Choi. He got himself arrested. HE got attention. It isn't about bobs, tits or whatever -- it is about
getting attention, and in many cases -- by any means necessary. Take a look at Code Pink. They used blood on their hands when Condi Rice testified.


Protest is ABOUT ATTENTION.

Suffragettes used attention to get their point across. What they did was about as scandalous as showing tit, considering the times.

I will say this:

If women on DU are inclined to take something such as a discussion that might require nuances as opposed to a simple black and white idea of showing tits or not, then the women on DU have lost a debate that we need to have. Sorry ladies...

At a certain point we need to stop enabling those that blame men for our inequity-- They are not my allies as they are the ones who continue to claim that we women are victims to benevolent patriarchy, and yes -- for those that are ironically disinclined -- that was sarcasm with a good dose of "Stop speaking on behalf of all feminists"

I will use my body as a means to get a point across and as thus -- change society. I don't really give a fuck about what men might think about my Tits.

They are my tits.

I get to call them whatever the FUCK I want. I get to show them in any WAY I want.

If one is a true are a feminist, we should not try to diminish our sisters and their actions as not being good enough --or perhaps too unacceptable -- for the cause of equality for all.

I;m seeing that here on DU. Some women are clearly not acceptable when it comes to fighting for equality. The most pathetic part of that observation is that it comes from a segment of women here on DU.

It's truly sad.

NO ONE supported the idea that women have to "get their tits out"to be taken seriously.


DU is far more intelligent than such a simpleton thesis.

[randome]

182. I can only imagine what it's like to have to tread that line.

Men ORDER you not to be topless and that disapproval is so pervasive, I would think most women have to expend some effort figuring out what level of freedom and expression they truly want.

[idwiyo]

187. I can tell you it pisses me off way more when WOMEN are trying to control what I expose or not.

To make it worse, those same women will talk about their "morals" and will try to shame you into submission with something like "think of the children"! Its all boils down to control issues and fear/shame associated with being naked/loving one's body/sex.
I encountered a lot of this type of women and every single one of them was not capable of looking on naked body (male or female, adult or child) WITHOUT associating it with sex, one way or another.

Never even mind when you have self-proclaimed FEMINISTS throwing tempter tantrums all over DU because they can not CONTROL what other women do with their bodies.

[idwiyo]

186. This post deserves K&R. thank you!

[ZombieHorde]

189. That wasn't my interpratation of that OP, but to answer your question,

no, I don't think women should have to take their tits out in order to be taken seriously.

The nude protest is Tunisia is hard for me to judge because there are so many variables and questions:
1) What was her goal for her nudity?
2) Does her nudity help to accomplish that goal?
3) Does her nudity have unintended consequences that help or harm her goal?
4) Does her nudity have unintended consequences for people in other places of the world?
5) Will men kill her for her protest?

I don't judge her. Obviously, none of know everything that is going on in her head, what her life experiences are, or what the outcome will be. I do hope she stays safe, and that may mean she has to leave the country. She may even have to leave the Middle East completely.

As with any protest that openly defies the law, her protest was courageous, and I hope something good comes from it.

[grahamhgreen]

191. OMG, boobs should be legal.

[In_The_Wind]

197. Aren't they already legal. Did I miss something?