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Thu Mar 28, 2013, 11:25 AM

An important distraction

The kicker with these social issues is that they are not unimportant but that they are still distractions from greater problems, intentionally so.

A broken leg is not unimportant but if the patient is in cardiac arrest, it's not the biggest problem.

So while civil rights are important, while I have sympathy for gays and blacks and other persecuted groups, I'm also angry that we're expending so much energy on these fights that we have nothing left for the big fight, the economic screwing. And the thing is, that gets all of us, white and black, straight and gay, tall and short, fat and thin, we're all getting screwed. It's the have's vs. the have-not's and we can't even have this conversation.

So, we may well see gay marriage. Yay! Now you can grow old together and wonder how you will make ends meet without a social safety net, no retirement. It's a cute little cottage on a bluff overlooking the Republican hellscape. Enjoy the view.

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Arrow 17 replies Author Time Post
Reply An important distraction (Original post)
jollyreaper2112 Mar 2013 OP
TwilightGardener Mar 2013 #1
jollyreaper2112 Mar 2013 #7
TwilightGardener Mar 2013 #12
el_bryanto Mar 2013 #2
graham4anything Mar 2013 #3
jollyreaper2112 Mar 2013 #9
uppityperson Mar 2013 #4
MineralMan Mar 2013 #5
NYC_SKP Mar 2013 #6
jollyreaper2112 Mar 2013 #8
NYC_SKP Mar 2013 #11
jollyreaper2112 Mar 2013 #14
99Forever Mar 2013 #10
jollyreaper2112 Mar 2013 #13
Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #15
jollyreaper2112 Mar 2013 #16
Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #17

Response to jollyreaper2112 (Original post)

Thu Mar 28, 2013, 11:28 AM

1. I predict this won't go well.

Edit to add: if you couldn't live your life the way you wanted to, you wouldn't see that as a distraction. Just saying.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #1)

Thu Mar 28, 2013, 11:39 AM

7. Not a troll

My sister's gay. I do have a dog in this fight. But I also have aging parents getting screwed by the economy, I myself am getting screwed by it. So out of four people, gay marriage helps one of us, fixing the economy would help all of us.

I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything about gay marriage. I'd rather take the win than pass on it. But I'm resentful that, by design, we waste all our energy on things that shouldn't even be up for debate so we have nothing left for the bigger issues. Abortion? For fuck's sake, we'd resolved this! And now you assholes are going to make us have to fight it all over again? What next, slavery? We gonna bring that back, too?

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Response to jollyreaper2112 (Reply #7)

Thu Mar 28, 2013, 11:50 AM

12. Didn't mean to imply that you were a troll. Just that it might get flamey.

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Response to jollyreaper2112 (Original post)

Thu Mar 28, 2013, 11:31 AM

2. Setting aside that this is a message board and thus essentially powerless

I think that people should work on the issues they are passionate about - for some people that is economic issues, for some it is social issues, for some it is is both. But they are all important and all will improve things for us.

The chief problem with economic issues (and environmental issues) is that most individuals feel somewhat powerless to do much about them. I can vote for the center-left politician of my choice - but a truly radical solution to these problems (which may be what is required) seems out of reach. We can't even get marginal tax increases on the wealthiest to offset the deficit hole.

That said, of course we should continue to fight the good fight in all areas, and fighting in one area doesn't preclude fighting in another area.

Bryant

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Response to jollyreaper2112 (Original post)

Thu Mar 28, 2013, 11:31 AM

3. -a billion. I strongly DISAGREE. your issue is a distraction to the far more important issues

 

People can be very happy with no money
Money can't buy you love
Money can't buy happiness
Money is just a means to pay the bills
But love and freedom from racism, sexism, inequality is vastly more important

People in other generations who had it 100000 times worse, didn't whine as much as some do now, because it was family and love that gets one through

So to me, your issue is a major wedge issue, attempting to equate the debunked proven lies of Ralph Nader that both sides are the same.

I ain't buying it.
And I don't need cash to buy or not buy it, I just won't buy it.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #3)

Thu Mar 28, 2013, 11:46 AM

9. not a wedge

Money can't buy you love but good times won't pay the bills.

This is why I say it's an important distraction. It's not unimportant. If I said gay rights didn't matter, that would be a huge wedge. They are important. But realize how we are being boxed into a course of action that fits the other side's agenda nicely.

Hell, look at what they did with Susan Rice. They torpedoed her nomination by creating an entire crisis out of bullshit and taffy. And because we let them get away with it, they won.

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Response to jollyreaper2112 (Original post)

Thu Mar 28, 2013, 11:32 AM

4. Multi-task. EOM

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Response to jollyreaper2112 (Original post)

Thu Mar 28, 2013, 11:32 AM

5. Civil Rights is Not a Zero-Sum Game

When Marriage Equality is a reality, it will not detract from anything else. Society really can do more than one thing at a time.

The same people are not involved in working on civil rights issues as those working on economic issues, for the most part. There's no conflict.

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Response to jollyreaper2112 (Original post)

Thu Mar 28, 2013, 11:36 AM

6. We can multitask.

We have to, it's the only way.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #6)

Thu Mar 28, 2013, 11:43 AM

8. there's another name for that

Multi-front wars force you to split your attention, let you get distracted, make you easier to defeat. It's fine to mount the strategy if you have the resources -- the Allies could afford to fight Hitler on multiple fronts. Hitler couldn't afford to fight on multiple fronts and yet opened them himself.

By forcing us to fight tooth and claw over shit that shouldn't even be questioned at this point, they're weakening us and preventing us from having the energy to tackle the bigger problems.

If abortion rights can come back from the dead, I'm sure we'll be refighting gay marriage in 30 years.

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Response to jollyreaper2112 (Reply #8)

Thu Mar 28, 2013, 11:50 AM

11. Abortion rights or marriage equality, what's your alternative plan? To just give in?

On either of these matters, I would never, ever give in, that sends the wrong message.

Also, while there will always be racists and sexists and homophobes, the tide has been turning and will continue to, so I don't think there will be quite the need over time to keep fighting.

The RW seems to be dying off, despite having become more visible in its hatred since 2008 and Barack Obama's win.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #11)

Thu Mar 28, 2013, 12:02 PM

14. I don't know what the best plan is

The RW may be dying off but there will always be new authoritarians. The old German fascists died off but we've got new ones now. The aristocracy of the Old South died off but just made way for the new aristocracy. Nobody complains about railroad barons anymore but we're not lacking for scumbag billionaires.

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Response to jollyreaper2112 (Original post)

Thu Mar 28, 2013, 11:47 AM

10. I think you are spot on.

Not discounting that the "social issues" are of major importance, but the MOST IMPORTANT social issue of all, is economic justice, and in that field, we are getting the shaft.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #10)

Thu Mar 28, 2013, 11:59 AM

13. yup

Politics has been defined "who gets what, when, and how." And when you get right down to it, everything is political, everything is economic, everything is social.

It's human nature to want what you deserve and it's also human nature to see your just desserts as larger than the other guy. If every monkey could agree on how the bananas should be divided we wouldn't need politics. And everyone wants to game the system. The human dream is getting more out of something than you put into it. Now in a benign way that's what cooperation does. Together we accomplish more than we can alone. But we want to let others take up our slack and still get a full share. That's the malignant side.

Having a disadvantaged servile class works great for those on top because they get more out of the system than they ever put into it. They're grafters. Only we can't really appreciate that the same way we can work up a rage over welfare cheats. Yeah, your lazy moocher brother is working the system. I appreciate your pain. But I'd like to go after the banks, first. The Republicans will get you all angry about black people on welfare mooching off the white man (gotta get race in there, works like a charm) and you'll completely miss just how much more money is stolen by the guys with the ties. "The banks only stole a trillion. These welfare cheats are stealing hundreds of millions ever year!"

With some of these issues, there doesn't seem to be an economic side to it, there's just the mean-spirited will to dominate. Is there an economic advantage to preventing gay marriage? Well, companies can pay less benefits. Any advantage to preventing abortion? Seems like a dominant power play against women, only an advantage if that's your kink. It doesn't drive down the cost of labor.

Of course, the flip side of that is limiting female options keeps 'em humble. Uneducated, barefoot and pregnant, they can't defy husband and master. Free domestic labor. So I suppose this can be turned to an economic argument.

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Response to jollyreaper2112 (Original post)

Thu Mar 28, 2013, 12:04 PM

15. I understand your point, but you are looking at it wrong... (cont)

 

Freedom and equality ARE the bigger issues. NOTHING is more important that this.

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #15)

Thu Mar 28, 2013, 02:01 PM

16. Freedom don't mean a thing

If you don't have the means to enjoy it.

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Response to jollyreaper2112 (Reply #16)

Thu Mar 28, 2013, 04:43 PM

17. Nonsense...

 

Freedom means that your life, and all that makes that life possible and worth living, are yours to choose for yourself by right. Freedom is the CEMENT with which a life and future can be constructed. Without freedom everything you are, everything you own, everything you love, are nothing more than a dream shattered by waking. All can be taken from you at the whim of your masters.

Here the debate is framed in terms of "gay rights," but in truth the rights of all of us are being challenged. The question is not whether gays can marry and build a life with whoever they choose, but whether government has the power to make decisions as fundamental as love and partnerships for everyone. And if such a basic simple right is in question, what right is not? If two adults do not have the right to share each other's lives and fortunes, what right could any man possibly have to anything as pedestrian as mere property or privacy or even a trial?

Without wealth you still have something invaluable -- you have HOPE. Your choices, your work, your luck, your friends, any of these things can change your fortunes. Without freedom you have nothing at all. You have no hope for anything but liberation.



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