2 Torrington CT HS football players charged with raping 13 year old. Victim bullied on social media

[cali]

Two Torrington High School football players stand accused of sexual assault of a 13-year-old girl. Four others were suspended in a hazing scandal last fall that is still under investigation. One player, the team’s second-highest scorer last fall, was allowed to play even though the team’s coach knew he had been charged with felony robbery and assault.

School officials claim that the sexual assault charges against 18-year-olds Edgar Gonzalez and Joan Toribio, the hazing and other incidents are isolated problems and don’t signal a deeper issue with the culture of Torrington High School, its athletic programs or football team.

Athletic Director Mike McKenna said, “If you think there’s some wild band of athletes that are wandering around then I think you’re mistaken.”

<snip>

But on social media in recent weeks, dozens of athletes and Torrington High School students, male and female, have taunted the 13-year-old victim, calling her a “whore,” criticizing her for “snitching” and “ruining the lives” of the 18-year-old football players, and bullying students who defend her.

<snip>

http://www.registercitizen.com/articles/2013/03/20/news/doc51493e14b1a0a944806262.txt

[knitter4democracy]

1. When humans think they're going to lose something they love, they turn.

That poor girl. May she know that there are many students standing with her, though they may not be as loud. May someone on that football team have the balls to stand up to his comrades and tell them to shut up.

[cali]

2. May the athletic director get fired and may holy hell be raised

about the culture that's grown up around "valuable" high school athletes- particularly football players.

[seabeyond]

4. Ben Roethlisberger. rapist. and cheered. he redeemed himself last year? by taking them to a

superbowl?

you too can rape if you make it to a superbowl.

[Upton]

6. Couple corrections..

the last time the Steelers were in the Super Bowl was 2010...and Roethisberger, no matter what you may think of him, has never been convicted of rape.

[seabeyond]

7. rapist. and redeemed... for whenever. rapist. nt

[Orrex]

103. How do you know he's a rapist? Because he was accused?

Last edited Wed Mar 20, 2013, 07:15 PM - Edit history (1)

In other words, because accusation equals guilt?


He's an asshole for a host of reasons. This is evident from a broad base of publicly available information.

He may also be a rapist. He has certainly been accused of rape.


I'm simply curious as to how you can declare that he is a rapist with such certainty.

[Iggo]

10. Oh, he's a rapist.

He's just not a convicted rapist.

[cali]

11. He's been accused twice and unless one believes that both women

lied about it....

[gollygee]

13. I thought it was three times?

http://www.politicolnews.com/roethlisberger-3rd-rape/

[Botany]

20. Ben paid the staff of the bar to scrub down the bathroom where the alleged rape ....

.... took place with bleach as the victim ran to the police in tears. And besides
what kind of a scum bucket of a man follows a women into the restroom?

[Upton]

22. I'm not defending him...

I'm just saying that since he's never been convicted, technically he's not a rapist. Opinions are one thing, facts are another.

[seabeyond]

23. technically he is a rapist. one can rape and because they are not convicted, that does not mean he

did not rape. what absurdity is that.

[cali]

24. that's not necessarliy true. He's not a CONVICTED rapist

doesn't mean he's not a rapist.

[xtraxritical]

54. Give up, almost everyone here is a "politically correct" judge, jury and executioner.

Here they never think about how condemning summarily jeopardizes their own rights.

[seabeyond]

25. the man should have been shunned by the public instead of redeemed. polanski should be shunned

rather than excused.

it is this very culture that allows people to attack this girl who has been RAPED by 18 yr olds and now called a whore.

every person that bought a ticket to that mans game is part of the problem.

every person that watches one of polanskis movie is part of the problem

[RevStPatrick]

29. I see... So because I watched "Chinatown" on Netflix...

...a few months ago, I am "part of the problem."

Oy fuckin' vey!!!

[geek tragedy]

65. No, more like the people who gave him a standing ovation

at the Oscars.

[RevStPatrick]

68. Yeah, but that's not what she said.

Is it?

[noiretextatique]

70. yes: she said he should be publically shunned

instead of celebrated at the oscars.

[geek tragedy]

71. I disagree with that part, but at the same time

our household does avoid putting any money into Polanski's pockets.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

35. I'm not calling you a republican, but playing with words and the failures within the system...

is exactly what republicans do.



Authoritarians love rules and put them (and the underlying ideology) above the people they affect, whether they are just or not.

[Dorian Gray]

84. Because he was not convicted

we don't know for sure whether he is guilty or not. But if he sexually assaulted her and penetrated, he is, indeed a rapist. Conviction doesn't change reality.

[SacoMaine61]

30. Kobe /nt

[seabeyond]

41. rapist. nt

[knitter4democracy]

5. Amen.

At the very least, the coaching staff should be dealt with.

[seabeyond]

3. i guess since there is so much denial toward the rape culture, here on du. the continual story

our rape culture all us women and girls live in is necessary. how dare she be bothered, she was raped.

so what a coach does is not weasel away from the crime, but call it out. that simple. or he is part of the problem.

[aikoaiko]

9. FYI: AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

\AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

At Wed Mar 20, 2013, 10:50 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

i guess since there is so much denial toward the rape culture, here on du. the continual story
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2540410

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

I have no seen any denial of rape or the rape culture on DU. I understand the anger at the men who raped this girl, but why include all of DU in your anger? I have not seen anyone denying this or the Stuebenville rape either one were not rape or giving a pass to the rapists.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Mar 20, 2013, 10:56 AM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The denial is limited, but it's there.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: If you think this is a slam to all DU, you are delusional.
Grow up- it's not all about you.
Frivolous alert - stop trying to shut sown conversation just because you don't like it.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: There was really no call to indict DU with this post. Hide.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Seabeyond has an opinion about DU that is within bounds. If you have a different opinion, please post in the thread and engage the other poster. This post is not disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: Agree with the Alerter. "Denial toward rape culture here on DU". Well, I would suggest that if you take such issue with DU, you pack your things and GTFO. Good to know that the rest of us DUers are such low creatures in comparison to you.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[seabeyond]

14. ha ha. double denial to deny the denial. lmfao. i can point out OPs that stand, not to mention

posts. in concentrated locations.

thanks. funny. and interesting.

[aikoaiko]

19. You're welcome.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

40. AMEN!

the denial is here for sure

and yet, it seems less than years ago back on DU2, when I and a LOT of DU feminists got banned for being too loud about misogyny (imo)

[seabeyond]

42. really? i dont know. seems like administration is continuallly telling us to speak up and out.

so, i am

lol

[BlancheSplanchnik]

62. sometimes I just get sick of beating my head against the wall

sometimes, I'm on my mobile and it craps out.

Back then, it did seem like the "lady-baiting" was even worse (not that it's great now)..... At least now you can say what you mean generally, without having to tiptoe around a point because you might get whacked for calling someone out.

[seabeyond]

64. yes. i do recall.

but also, that is a decade of hearing us not shut up

[SoCalDem]

100. Coaches are often the BIGGEST problem

Coaches "look out" for their "boys", no matter how old those "boys" are.

They get them test-takers so they can remain eligible
They get them pud courses so they can have plenty of time off for the important things..like practices
They look the other way when their star athletes "misbehave"

I've seen it up close & personal in college (dated some football players)

The tragic preoccupation with sports, has created a monster..That monster is worshiped and forgiven of most transgressions.. why? because they have the athletic ability to make shitloads of money for their "owners". As long as they perform in the arena/on the field they are "untouchable" (unless they shoot themselves in the leg with an unlicensed gun..

It's RARE for athletes to be punished for rape/assault.

[get the red out]

8. The kids bullying her

They were saying SHE should be punished but the boys were just being boys. Just shows that words and concepts mean nothing unless they are put into practice in communities. You can talk all you want about it not being about the victim, that rape is a crime of violence, but still these young people blame the child victim and say "boys will be boys" and question why she would be around them in the first place (asking for it). Until communities really stand behind the words they won't mean anything. Until communities cease to have preferred classes of children that are protected to the detriment of others; nothing changes.

[justiceischeap]

12. The "boys will be boys" mentality shows just how little regard there is towards women

or young girls, IMO. Since when is it okay for 18 yr-old young men to rape 13 yr old girls? How is this normal "boys will be boys" behavior?

Meanwhile, there is social media "wilding" in regards to the victim. I guess that's just "kids being kids" if raping children is just "boys being boys."

It sickens me how people react to rape victims, particularly when that victim is a young child, who doesn't have the emotional and mental capacity that adult rape victims have (who have trouble overcoming their rapes as adults).

[gollygee]

15. Also very little regard for boys or men

To suggest this is typical behavior or should be accepted as typical behavior for them.

[justiceischeap]

16. So true. I hadn't thought about that.

If that's the attitude in Torrington, CT, towards boys or men, you have to wonder just what the boys/men are up to there.

[seabeyond]

17. biology. just, boys will be boys. evo psych says so. and THIS

is the insult when those words are used. the offense. and not only to women. to ALL our men and boys.

when anyone uses them for the cutsey comments, it is also for the not so cutsey.

i wanted to post this here also. since you posted the boys will be boys. i had this in another thread. i think it is really important, all those men adn some women that use this garbage to explain "behaviors" as if it is valid, reaches to these behaviors. adn that is why is is so offensive when a man will give us this shit. and it should be that much more offenisve to all men. i know it is to my boys.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

26. The kids learn these attitudes parents & from the Republican War on Women. nt

[noiretextatique]

76. the decades long struggle aka the cultural war

and the stupid attacks on something they narrowed down to "pc." either we progress or we regress as a society, and clearly the GOP wants the latter. congratulations, GOP i guess rape is also a republicon family value.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

48. actually, it shows that words and concepts mean EVERYTHING! It's just that the words and concepts

that are the norms now in this society are pathologically anti-feminine.

Even the common usage of "d....bag" is rooted in disgust towards female-ness.


I'm FUCKING SICK OF IT.

[seabeyond]

51. what bothers me, in the process of an attempt to deconstruct this, we are attacked on du. yet, the

same posters show up on threads like these to decry this treatment of the girl. while mocking the attempt to give an understanding how our culture evolved to this.

the hypocrisy and just plain stupid is blinding.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

60. I know, yeah. They always phrase themselves

snidely...in ways that seem acceptable. It's not so hard to debunk them, but without clear analysis, most people miss the method of attack. At best, one would be left with a hard to describe feeling of unease.

It's the kind of fight-picking that you would never see them have the bad manners and oversized sphincters to go display in the LGBT or African-American or Asian or Disability or Disability forums. Or, if they did, they'd be tossed out of here on their asses.

But woman bashing is entrenched in the culture and the language. Like the water that fish swim in and the air we breathe. Unless you experience the downside of oppression yourself, you have a hard time seeing it.

[get the red out]

66. I'm sick of it too

The communities that do nothing but worship sports need to be thinking more of the future of their children. I guess my point is that it doesn't matter what is "officially" said at the school, by "adult authorities", etc.... Until it is real and supported the anti-female crap will continue to win and own society. No one is putting their foot down about these attitudes. It's really sick. It demeans young men too, it casts them as animals with no human ability to reason or have self control.

[kiva]

18. And again a cadre of girls

cheering on the boys and calling the girl a whore.

I swear to god I am so grateful I grew up during the 1970s when sisterhood was seen as possible and girls/women generally treated each other as friends and not rivals.

[SpartanDem]

32. "girls/women generally treated each other as friends and not rivals."

If there was social media in the 70's the comments would just as mean.

[kiva]

67. I don't agree.

There was, quite simply, a different attitude, probably due to the fact that many young women supported the notion of sisterhood. You can argue that it was in opposition to very obvious and tangible vestiges of male dominance, but this attitude existed. I - and other young women I know at this time - were frankly bewildered by the attitudes in earlier movies or books that women should never trust other women, or that you had to side with men against women in order to succeed. You still hear echoes of this when you talk women who remember this period.

So no, I don't think that social media would have made us turn on each other...I'm not saying we were saints and we likely would have made our own mistake, but not this one.

[SpartanDem]

89. There were no cliques, no "mean girls"?

You all sat around sang kumbuya? Many DU'ers regardless of age have spoken about bullying they faced growing up. If two popular football players in the 70's were charged with rape, you don't think some girls would talk badly or blame the victim? Granted, I grew in the 90's, but people are people and I have a hard believing the dynamics around schools and sports are that different.

[polly7]

90. There sure were cliques of very mean girls.

A friend of mine broke up with her boyfriend, he was an abusive *. His sister and her gang caught Lisa alone after gym class and beat the hell out of her. They destroyed her things and tortured her pretty much until graduation.

[seabeyond]

92. i knew everyone. friends with all. i didnt do cliques. and did not particularly see the mean girl

we see today, or the mean girl media presents.

and no, i was not bullied.

[MattBaggins]

45. This must be the up and coming 4th wave feminism.

Looks awesome doesn't it?

[seabeyond]

53. actually, i think it is the left over of third wave of individualism and we are in the process of

stepping that up to the harms done by seeing feminism as individualism. doesnt work

[BlancheSplanchnik]

57. of course. Girls have always known they're lesser, and an EASY way to gain power is to side

with the oppressors. Or rather, gain the illusion of power.

Most well known example: the capos in the German death camps during the Holocaust.

[surrealAmerican]

101. You must have lived in a much more loving, supportive community ...

... than I did. As a girl in the '70s, most of the other girls I knew treated any girl outside of their clique as a rival.

[kiva]

102. I graduated in 1973,

and honestly this wasn't the case. Were there cliques? Yes. Was everyone nice? No. But there was a certain sense of connection - as a whole our class was still worried about Vietnam (though it was winding down) and the draft, and among most of the girls there was a push for change.

We entered high school with a strict dress code (no pants/Levis), a pretty rigid sense of behavior - be ladies - and most of us left three years later (no freshman class) wearing our Levis and garmish boots and behaving like young women, not ladies. I wasn't part of the cool kids, so there may have been more sense of rivalry there, overall not.

Again, not making it out to be a time of rainbows and butterflies, but there was a different dynamic between girls and young women.

[LanternWaste]

106. Yet one may wonder if they were as belligerent to rape victims too.

"most of the other girls I knew treated any girl outside of their clique as a rival."

Yet one may wonder if they were as belligerent to rape victims too.


I imagine that anyone who presents anecdotal evidence presents only those anecdotes which validate their own opinions...

[OnionPatch]

104. I grew up in the seventies.

A guy once turned me out of his car and left me alone on a country road for "not putting out". It was a twenty mile hike home home and when I didn't return on time, my parents had every law enforcement agency in the area looking for me. My friends knew who I was with and the guy was eventually charged with contributing to a minor. I spent the rest of high school hiding from from his sisters and cousins who tried to beat me up every chance they had. Glad you knew nicer girls.

[Sheldon Cooper]

21. Grown people calling a 13-year old girl a whore.

Pigs.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

27. How the tables would turn if an 18 yo girls volleyball player raped a 13 yo boy. nt

[geek tragedy]

31. How so? nt

[Bernardo de La Paz]

36. Obviously those calling the 13 yo rape victim a "whore" would call the 18 yo girl rapist a whore too

It's the War on Women, tactical edition, trickled down from patriarchy and bible literalists until it is pure poison on the streets.

[geek tragedy]

38. Ah, gotcha. nt

[seabeyond]

44. true that. the 18 yr old would be a whore and the 13 yr old gets a pat on the back. BUT...

at the very least, the women on du that speak out against the rape of the 13 yr old girl would consistently speak out about a rape of a 13 yr old boy. and having boys who were at 13. no, it is not to cheer. it is abuse of authority the same with a girl.

[Sargasso Sea]

72. When (if you know) was the last time an 18 year old female

athlete raped a 13 year old boy?

[NewJeffCT]

28. I hope the state throws the book at the two boys

and, everybody else involved in this incident - the AD, the Coach, and all the kids that bullied this poor girl.

[iandhr]

33. Its way more then a Steubenville problem.

[kdmorris]

34. Wow... 13 years old and her life is already destroyed

We have to stop putting athletes on a pedestal and victimizing young girls.

What a bunch of pigs - I agree with that statement made by a previous poster!

[seabeyond]

49. the 12 yr old called slut by classmates and had never kissed a boy that killed herself.

we are destroying our girls lives awfully early. i agree. a couple months ago there were like three/four suicides together that was all about this. really left an impact on me.

[Fumesucker]

74. Boys successfully commit suicide about four times as often as do girls

http://kidshealth.org/parent/emotions/behavior/suicide.html

Suicide rates differ between boys and girls. Girls think about and attempt suicide about twice as often as boys, and tend to attempt suicide by overdosing on drugs or cutting themselves. Yet boys die by suicide about four times as often girls, perhaps because they tend to use more lethal methods, such as firearms, hanging, or jumping from heights.

Our culture is an equal opportunity destroyer, it's often toxic for both girls and boys.

I suspect that the reaction to this event may have more to do with the perceived status and athletic ability of the individuals involved than their respective sexes. If a popular cheerleader had been raped by a couple of unpopular geeky guys things would have gone down very differently, IMO.

[seabeyond]

75. first... it is the name calling that cause the girls to commit suicide from social media, with

grown men participating in a couple. the link i am pointing out is the social media to attack victims, and the results of those attacks made thru social media, specifically the slut shaming.

you want me to be empathetic with the boys that commit suicide? you got it. i am all over it. each and every one i hear.

what that has to do with my post about a very small period, like a week of 3, 4 girls committing suicide because they were slut shamed thru social media leaves me stumped.

[Fumesucker]

78. Statistically about 12 boys committed suicide in the same period

I got the impression, rightly or wrongly, from your post that you think it's mostly girls that commit suicide, I was just trying to point out that perception is erroneous.

Boys may have different social pressures but being a boy in today's America is no more a piece of cake than it is being a girl.

[seabeyond]

80. having two boys and dealing with their emotional drama and trauma on a regular basis,

not to mention all the times i have discussed the issues with boys today and how hard society makes it for them, i am well aware of the issues boys face and i am one of their greatest defenders and protectors.

[Fumesucker]

81. And I thank you for it..

[LittleBlue]

99. I think it also has to do with depression in women

Women typically have a larger deep limbic system than men, which allows them to be more in touch with their feelings and better able to express them, which promotes bonding with others. Because of this ability to connect, more women serve as caregivers for children. The down side to this larger deep limbic system is that it also opens women up to depression, especially during times of hormonal shifts such as after childbirth or during a woman’s menstrual cycle.

http://www.mastersofhealthcare.com/blog/2009/10-big-differences-between-mens-and-womens-brains/

Women are more susceptible to depression, which is obviously far greater when large groups of people are verbally abusing them.

[alp227]

95. If it makes you relieved here's 2nd degree sexual assault law in CT

Article in OP states the men (yes they're 18 now) are charged w/2nd-degree sexual assault. The relevant state law:

Sec. 53a-71. Sexual assault in the second degree: Class C or B felony. (a) A person is guilty of sexual assault in the second degree when such person engages in sexual intercourse with another person and: (1) Such other person is thirteen years of age or older but under sixteen years of age and the actor is more than three years older than such other person;...

(b) Sexual assault in the second degree is a class C felony or, if the victim of the offense is under sixteen years of age, a class B felony, and any person found guilty under this section shall be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of which nine months of the sentence imposed may not be suspended or reduced by the court.

Also here's the sentencing guidelines for class B felony: "for a class B felony other than manslaughter...a term not less than one year nor more than twenty years"

These guys sure ain't getting a soft sentence that the Steubenville rapists got.

[kdmorris]

98. Good!

Thank you for the information.

[Sissyk]

105. This is good to know.

Thanks, alp227.

[geek tragedy]

37. Rape culture in the US is still the rule, not the exception.

Black, white Latino, Christian, Jew, no matter.

Whenever a high profile rape case is discussed, people focus on what the victim did wrong.

[SpartanDem]

39. If I was that girls father those people better hope I don't know where they live. n/t

[bettyellen]

115. FYI- That's a major reason women do not report rape- fear their family will react with retribution

on top of the fear that they are "causing trouble".

So, think about the messages you put out if you want them to feel safe telling you what's going on.

[Brigid]

43. This society is just sick.

Sick and rotten to the core.

[Orrex]

46. Has CNN expressed its support for the alleged rapists yet?

If there's any consolation in this, it's that they won't be tried as juveniles and given months-long sentences if convicted.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

61. really.

you got that right.

[alp227]

91. The perps are already 18 thus too old for the juvenile justice system. n/t

[City Lights]

47. Our society is sick.

I'm so sick to death of society hero-worshiping athletes.

[Floyd_Gondolli]

50. I agree

Castrate them all!

[City Lights]

55. Castration is not the answer.

Did you forget the ?

[Floyd_Gondolli]

56. No

[alp227]

97. They'll face from 1 to 20 years behind bars, see my reply #95

Combine that with the fact they'll be tried in the ADULT justice system not juvie as the Steubenville rapists got.

[99th_Monkey]

52. Wow. the "Jock Culture" in the US is looking and uglier uglier by the day.

IMHO the Jock Culture is one of the primary underpinnings for misogynistic sexism to
be perpetuated and even celebrated.

One of the reasons I've never been much of a "sports fan".

[ellie]

58. One of those future pillars of society

was charged with felony robbery and assault for another incident. I guess those victims asked to be jumped and robbed? Disgusting.

[Brigid]

59. Sure the robbery victims asked for it.

Why were they wearing those expensive watches and carrying those fat wallets (or whatever was taken from them)?

[nonoyes]

63. "One player, the team’s second-highest scorer last fall, was allowed to play" ?

This is unconscionable. The school administration and coach(es) that allowed this.... get them out of public educaiton.


They are not qualified to be educators if they make decisions like this. Education is not about a football game.

[radicalliberal]

69. It has been said that sports have always been in the forefront of social reform . . .

. . . yet in the world of football, women's rights have been taking a beating for generations.

[nomorenomore08]

107. It's a complex subject to be sure. I'm a long-time sports fan but I recognize the ugly side of it.

nt

[radicalliberal]

109. Thank you for being civil and not getting mad at me. :)

It's very sad, and it really doesn't have to be this way.

There are decent men in the world of sports (although I seriously doubt they're in the majority) who are trying to change the culture. Perhaps they will succeed in the long run (although I'm not all that optimistic about it); but the change, if it does occur, will take place over a very long period of time.

[nomorenomore08]

110. Well I certainly don't think the majority are as bad as say, Ben Roethlisberger.

But there are many others who arguably enable their teammates' misdeeds. I don't know of any easy answers to these issues, but there certainly does need to be a lot more positive peer pressure, at all levels of football (and other sports). And, obviously, greater accountability (legally and otherwise) for those who don't respect boundaries.

[radicalliberal]

114. (Written in a friendly tone) Just to be sure I'm not misunderstood (as I apparently was in . . .

. . . another topic by another member): I certainly don't believe the majority of football players at any level commit rape and other serious crimes. But I am convinced that the relative few who do commit such crimes do get away with it far more often than not. Many such instances are covered up; so, we never hear about them. (For a notorious example of odious conduct in this regard, read Our Guys by Bernard Lefkowitz, which is about the Glen Ridge scandal.) Frankly, I was surprised there were any convictions in the Steubenville rape trial. I'm afraid if the trial had been by jury that there would have been no convictions.

One of the solutions to the problem of the negative aspects of the culture of school sports is values-based coaching, a leading proponent of which is the former NFL player Joe Ehrmann. He's co-authored an excellent book describing his coaching philosophy, which is entitled InSideOut Coaching. If moral leadership of the kind that Ehrmann advocates had been present in Steubenville, perhaps this scandal would not have happened. I believe our society has forgotten about what I would call the noble "knight" sort of masculinity. Machismo is self-centered and selfish. Just my opinion.

Thanks, again, for being civil.

[nomorenomore08]

116. Agree with nearly everything you said.

While I may see even "noble masculinity" as outdated and unnecessary, it's certainly the lesser of two evils at worst.

[radicalliberal]

117. You have a point.

There are different masculinities because there's so much variety among men.

I guess you could say each guy has to find his own way. (Sounds dopy, doesn't it?)

We have no argument. So, I say "best regards." Even if we disagreed, I'd still want to say "best regards."

[davidn3600]

73. Notice many of these rape crews have female protectors

First the victim has to fight the boys. Then afterwords she'll be attacked and bullied by the mean girls for taking boys off the chess board.

Same thing happening in Steubenville right now. Two girls already arrested for making death threats to the victim.

[noiretextatique]

77. when we have prominent GOP politicians

claiming there is something called "real rape" and something else that's not real rape, is it any wonder that some of the children listen to them? i am sure these rapists don't think they are "real" rapists either, just like the Stubenville rapists don't believe what they did was "real" rape. girls defending rapists i think it is a way they feel less vulnerable to attack themselves.

[gollygee]

82. I think some of it is plain old peer pressure

If you want to be popular, and the girl who was raped is being ostracized, how do you maintain your popularity? If the rape victim is losing friends, how do you keep friends? If the boy you like is trash talking and blaming the rape victim, do you stand up to him, or go along in the hope it will make you more attractive?

I am trying to raise my kids to fight against that kind of peer pressure. It's a rough world though.

[noiretextatique]

86. i've found that girls are especially vicious

and i am sure a lot of it has to do with peer pressure, but i suspect there is more going on with the girls. i know it is a rough world, but kids need to understand how to act right, in addition to knowing what is right. i know that's a difficult thing to do, especially if your friends, etc., are doing the opposite. good luck and best wishes

[bighart]

83. While I despise Todd Akin and all his ilk

I don't think politicians have much to do with teenage sexual behavior. I didn't buy it when they tried to say oral sex among teens was going increase because of Bill Clinton, and I don't now.

This kind of stuff happens in part because celebrities, whether they are international, national, regional or local celebrities, are made to feel "special" and like they can do no wrong. They are bailed out, excused, covered up for all of the time and they come to believe they can get away with almost anything.

Look at the celebs mentioned in this thread alone, Kobe Bryant, Ben Roethlisberger, Roman Polanski all had defenders and those who made an argument that they should be treated differently because of their "talent". Hell two of them were never convicted of criminal wrong doing.

[noiretextatique]

85. what about the politicians who do the same thing?

the exact same thing happens with all people who are prominent in the MSM. celebrities get slaps on the wrist, and so do politicians. hell...does any wealthy person EVER have to accept responsibility for their actions in this country?

[bighart]

87. Exactly why I used the term celeberity

A celebrity can be in any occupation.

[noiretextatique]

108. agreed

thanks for clarifying.

[Jennicut]

79. Lovely, I work there in the school district as a sub.

Torrington is off Route 8 in the northwestern part of the state. It's like a small, post industrial city with lots of diversity. I have worked in all the elementary schools and the middle school. Middle school kids were tough sometimes. But poor girl. Why does everything bad in the world seem to happen close by lately (not far from Newtown either)?

[bighart]

88. So what is the political leaning of the area, is it more R than D?

[alp227]

93. Mixed.

http://www.cga.ct.gov/asp/menu/CGAFindLeg.asp

(Use the address 56 Alice Street.)

Its US Rep. is Elizabeth Esty (5th district). Its state house representative is a Democrat but state senator a Republican.

Its mayor, Ryan J. Bingham, is a Republican.

[Jennicut]

111. Well, Litchfield County can lean red but our Repubs are moderate.

It's Connecticut, which is socially liberal/moderate and fiscally liberal/moderate. I mean, gay marriage is legal here and no one really cared when it happened. Litchfield County is more rural then central CT and then the area near New York City but rural simply means less populated. Torrington is one of the more populated areas in this county.

[NewJeffCT]

112. I used to go up to Torrington all the time

That whole area with Target, Home Depot, Stop & Shop, etc was a pretty convenient shopping area.

[Jennicut]

113. If I am working in that school district, I shop there before heading home to Terryville.

There is nothing in Tville. We have an IGA and a Dunkin Donuts. That is about it. I usually head to Bristol for anything.

[markpkessinger]

94. "We're just like any other community"

“If you look at crime statistics these things happen everywhere and we’re not any different than any other community,” said McKenna.

He's right about that much -- and that is the problem.

[gollygee]

96. +1 n/t