A solar graphic that says a lot!

[garybeck]

just imagine how much smaller that square could be if we threw in some wind generators and energy conservation.

On edit: A few people are asking to see the math so here goes. there are many ways you could calculate this figure. I've done it several times. The 100 x 100 square is actually based on module efficiency from 10 years ago, so the truth is actually a bit smaller. There are a bunch of variables that can give you slightly different answers but your answer will be in the same range no matter how you look at it. Here's one example that actually ends up with a square just 63 miles on each side. See if this makes any sense, let me know if you have any questions

Annual US energy consumption
3,886,400,000,000,000 wh/year
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electricity_consumption

3,886,400,000,000,000 wh/year
/365

~10,648,000,000,000 wh/day
/6 peak sun hours per day in Nevada

1,775,000,000,000 watts
/220 watts

8,070,000,000 220-watt modules

each module 62" x 32"
1984 sq inches
13.8 sq ft

13.8 sq ft x 8,070,000,000 modules =
111,366,000,000 sq ft
= 3,994.7 sq miles
= 63 miles x 63 miles

also here's a quote from the Dept. of energy:
with today’s commercial systems, the
solar energy resource in
a 100-by-100-mile area
of Nevada could supply
the United States with
all of its electricity. If
these systems were
distributed to the
50 states, the land
required from each
state would be an area
of about 17 by 17 miles.
This area is available
now from parking lots,
rooftops, and vacant land. In fact, 90% of
America’s current electricity needs could be
supplied with solar electric systems built on
the estimated 5 million acres of abandoned
industrial sites in our nation’s cities

source:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/solar/pdfs/32529.pdf

[byronius]

1. That is a brilliant graphic. Damn.

[garybeck]

3. i dig your profile pic. is that Abbie Hoffman?

one of my heroes.

[byronius]

18. Yes indeed, sir, mine as well.

[garybeck]

32. ever see "steal this movie?"

a good one

[byronius]

45. Many times. Read every book he's written over and over.

I got to shake his hand, saw him speak three times. Amazing human being.

[Octafish]

2. Well, the oil companies wouldn't approve.

Which is why it's a great idea.

To get the United States started on that path, President Jimmy Carter put solar panels on the White House roof and mandated the 55-mph speed limit nationwide.

About the first thing Ronald Reagan did upon assuming office was take the solar panels off. His solution for the energy crisis? "Repeal the 55 mph speed limit."

Thank you for a great OP and graphic, Gary Beck!

[green for victory]

36. I thought Obama was going to put them back on

maybe I was hearing things...

[Octafish]

38. No, you heard them.

It's just they were uttered by a politician with a "D" after his name, so they don't need to count anymore.

The guy is friends with EXELON and the rest o' Nuke, Inc., which explains a lot.

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-23/nuclear-illinois-helped-shape-obama-view-on-energy-in-dealings-with-exelon.html

[99Forever]

4. Corporate America...

.. is NOT please with your truthiness.

You forgot the 11th Commandment:

"Thou shalt not lower the profits of Big Energy."

[tridim]

5. How big would it have to be to replace all of our natural gas and petrolium use?

[garybeck]

8. that is another story because

heating and transportation can't be powered directly by solar

the only way to do it is to have electric vehicles that run on solar

the real solution would involve some electric vehicles powered by solar but not all transportation provided this way. and solar electric can't really provide heating.

the area in the graphic supplies 100% of the electricity needs. to get transportation and heating we need to include other renewables like biofuels. it can be done. I've seen a similar graphic showing how much area would be required to offset 100% of our transportation needs with algae-produced biofuels.

[1-Old-Man]

6. I'll bite. After the energy is generated how do you move it to the rest of the country

Because if you put your square in North Dakota or West Virginia or any other place where the sun does not shine about half the time and it will have to be a lot larger, That and as I understand it you can not move electricity more than about 200 miles and still have any left (it heats the wire so energy is lost every inch of the way).

[garybeck]

9. the graphic just shows the area required for production. in reality

you would not do it all in once place like that. from DOE:

If these systems were
distributed to the
50 states, the land
required from each
state would be an area
of about 17 by 17 miles.

so you would break it up into a bunch of smaller ones if you were going to actually do it.

[Shankapotomus]

10. Fiber optic cables?

Anyone know the range of light through a fiber optic cable?

[garybeck]

12. i'm not aware of fiber optics carrying power. I thought it was data.

bottom line, you wouldn't produce all this energy in one place anyway. you'd break it up into lots of smaller areas distributed evenly.

the big question is storage -- how do you hold the energy stored during the sunny day so people can use it at night? we're working on that one. the two most promising solutions I've seen are hydrogen and compressed air.

[Shankapotomus]

16. I'm pretty sure fiber cables

transmit light.

[garybeck]

17. yup. I don't think that translates well to moving large amounts of power

of course light is a form of power, but I don't think we can move megawatts of electricity through a fiberoptic cable.

hydrogen is very efficient at moving power. on one end, you convert the electricity to hydrogen with an electrolyser. then you move the hydrogen through a pipeline. then you convert it back to electricity on the other end where you need it with a fuel cell, or burn it as fuel. hydrogen is carbon free, so it doesn't make greenhouse gases when you burn it or make electricity with it.

[Shankapotomus]

19. You don't need to move the electricity

You just move the light and pump it into solar panels at the other end.

People are working on ways to transmit light without losing intensity. Granted, it's on the small scale of a building but the principle might be applied to a longer scale:

[green for victory]

33. Germany has managed to figure it out

Germany leads the world in Solar photovoltaics.

But since the US Media largely ignores it, many don't know.

Let's ask them how to do it, since most of our scientists are working on killing "terrorists"



Solar power in Germany

Germany is the world's top photovoltaics (PV) installer, with a solar PV capacity as of December 2012 of more than 32.3 gigawatts (GW).[2] [3] The German new solar PV installations increased by about 7.6 GW in 2012, and solar PV provided 18 TWh (billion kilowatt-hours) of electricity in 2011, about 3% of total electricity.[4] Some market analysts expect this could reach 25 percent by 2050.[5] Germany has a goal of producing 35% of electricity from renewable sources by 2020 and 100% by 2050.

The sooner Americans realize that their government doesn't want energy independence the sooner we can elect people that do.

It's only been how long since the first embargo?

[Occulus]

7. No. We are too close to fusion to put THAT much into solar.

We should not stop solar investment, but fusion reactors like the one mentioned by Lockheed recently, a project suspiciously similar to the Polywell by its sound, are very very close to being a reality.

Don't scoff. Their project is not ITER or the Tokamak. Those can not and will never work as advertised. The polywell/IEC fusion design uses a different approach.

Since a single such fusion reactors will, by itself, power a small city, well. Solar energy, even at its best, using the most sophisticated technology for solar we have tomorrow (not today), can not and will not ever even come close in terms of energy output.

That's not to mention the manufacturing of solar panels, a dirty process itself. I have no problem with solar development, and I used to be behind a big project like this one, a huge solar array in the Southwest, but now that fusion is so close to a reality, such an array is really a foolish waste of money, time, materials, and land.

[dreampunk]

21. Just so I understand a bit about fusion,

IS it nuclear powered energy production? And DOES it have waste products like other nuclear powered energy production? I live downstream from Hanford, so am highly aware of the nature of such waste. Thanks.

[Yavapai]

11. Our solar array is just about the same size as our travel trailer.

And it supplies enough to pump all of our water from a 550 foot deep well, supply all our house needs and fills our battery bank to make it through the night. We decided to not install wind generators due to maintenance costs because they have moving parts and were only warrenteed for three years. Our solar panels have warranties for 25 years.

On sunny days our batteries are fully charged by noon and they are automaticly stopped to not over charge these batteries. On really cold winter days, we use a 1500 watt electric hear for a couple hour in the morning. To help heat the house. During the summer we use a 3500 cubic feet water cooler most of the day to cool the house to comfort and we still have enough power for the batteries.

The largest expense now, is the battery bank to be replaced every 5 to 7 years. Storage for night use is where the technology needs to improve to make it truly cost effective solution for every home.

The post office recently required us to bring in an utility bill to prove our residency to qualify for a free PO box and we could not do it because we don't have any utility bills. They finally accepted our property tax record and all is well. Nine years living off grid is just fine for us and we don't have to look at any electric wires and we have enough free water to make our summer garden grow. The only thing we miss is the jacuzzi, because it would take $10,000 to power and heat it.

[garybeck]

13. very cool. you're doing it the "old school" way

most people today don't have batteries and they use the grid power at night.

i'm old school too. I like your system. you're truly independent.

KUDOS.

[Yavapai]

14. well, we could have the grid brought to our property, for just $152,000 :-]

[garybeck]

15. and that's why the solar market has skyrocketed in the last 10 years

ten or fifteen years ago the only people who could go solar were folks like you. there was no way to use the grid as your battery. the market was small, prices were high. I was working as a solar energy engineer for $8/hr and had to struggle to find customers.

now with net metering, the market went from a tiny handful of people that don't have utility power to EVERYONE in the country. prices have gone way down due to the expanded market and increased scale of production.

solar is cost effective now, to millions of people.

but we need to resolve the storage issue before we can shut down the coal power plants.

[SeattleVet]

20. We just contracted for a 6kw PV system.

We were going to wait a few years after we did a big remodel project, but the way things fell into place we really need to do it now. We pre-wired and had the meter and cutoff panels installed. We attended a seminar for our community from SolarizeWA, and decided that we couldn't afford to wait. If we use made-in-Washington components there is no sales tax (9.5% savings right off the bat), plus Seattle City Light pays US about 52 cents/kilowatt for production (about 6x what we pay them), and the Solarize program is a community-based way to get a bulk purchase price on panels, inverters, and contractors.

There is also the federal 30% tax rebate (up to 30% of the cost of the system as a tax rebate next year!). The sales tax exemption expires later this year, and the fed rebate in a couple of years. After we ran the numbers we found that the system should be fully paid for in about 6-1/2 years, then everything else is just gravy for the life of the system (or us).

We're waiting now to get our install date; we have the interconnection approvals and everything is ready to go. Solar is HUGE in Germany, and we get about 15% more sun than they do; solar DOES work well in the 'northern latitudes'. We figure that this system will provide about 70% of our typical annual usage, but we should actually be getting a check every year from Seattle City Light due to the production credit system they have set up for our net metering.

If you're in WA, check http://solarizewa.org/ to get details and find out how to bring this program to your community.

[dreampunk]

25. THANKS SEATTLE VET

I am at Ocean Park in SW Wa, near the mouth of the RV always made at least a bit of electricity even on cloudy days. I am going to check that link right now.

[dreampunk]

23. Sounds like a nice outfit, but

I have had a hot tub for over 20 years and it only costs me $10 - $15 a month to run which equals what? $180 max a year? Yours may be so much more because you would have to invest in a meter base and hookup to the local power grid?

[garybeck]

31. grid tie is cheaper, not more expensive

since you don't need batteries, the system is much simpler if you do grid tie (and cheaper).

if you got a hot tub, it would be a fairly simple calculation to figure out how much it would cost to do it with solar if you think it's $15/month, the only ohter thing you need to know is how much you're paying per KWH for your power. then we can determine your KWH per month.

[pediatricmedic]

22. Storage and transmission are still the big roadblocks to this

[NewJeffCT]

24. and just think how many jobs would be created

if we implemented a plan like this?

[stuntcat]

40. Right? DITTO

To me this is just plain Smart Investment. I'm not an economist or anything like that.. there MUST be something so awfully wrong with this, some reason our country of masterminds doesn't do this thing that seems obvious.

( )

[ChazInAz]

26. A little idea from India.

Here in Baja Arizona, one of our main water supplies is the C.A.P. Canal: an uncovered canal bringing water from another state. Since it's open for its whole length, we lose a lot through evaporation. In India's sunny clime, they solved a similar problem by covering their canals with solar panels, reducing evaporation and generating tremendous levels of power at the same time.
This is such a sensible idea, that I know our Arizona legislature would never even consider it.

[Lobo27]

27. I've always thought the oil companies and Govs

who benefit from them, will shut down anything that would hurt their bottom line. For example, the tech was probably existed or was being developed for a tech that would make oil completely obsolete even in cars. And then they shut it down...

That's why seeing stuff that would benefit us, makes me sad because of the feeling that it'll never happen.

[dreampunk]

28. GREAT DISCUSSION THREAD!

I know a couple of families who can afford it and have assembled solar/wind packages for total off grid normal (though very efficient) households. Out here by the mouth of the Columbia River we DO get a lot of bright days, but I also know that a good solar panel will produce even on cloudy days. With the addition of wind, these folks have really got a sweet (though not inexpensive) deal going!

I read the websites about the solar Seattle incentives and whatnot and have emailed to see if there is any sort of program for a 66 year old veteran on limited fixed income way out here on a dead end road off the dead end highway 103. I try to be optimistic....

If we can just get the Koch/Tea/publicans off our backs, we just might be able to progress to mass use of appropriate tech in this country!

[SamReynolds]

29. Imagine if everyone's taxes went up by 0.5% to create and maintain a national solar-electric system.

And everyone's energy were then FREE. That would be such a massive return on investment. That's the problem this nation has. So many people are so stupid and have been duped into thinking that what they pay in taxes is a 'loss', that they would rather pay 10% of their salary for electricity than see a 1% increase in their taxes.

[garybeck]

30. Spain gets 35% from renewables and they say for every dollar they spend on it

they get three dollars back in jobs, taxes, manufacturing, etc.

[green for victory]

34. Olmedilla de Alarcón is quite impressive

[green for victory]

35. not necessary if trillions of dollars weren't spent bombing and invading other countries

people have been duped into thinking this nonsense has made us "safer".

Americans have been taxed quite enough.

[TheKentuckian]

41. Doesn't work out cheaper for those with long money and they call the plays.

[SamReynolds]

42. I imagine that it might work out for them.

Most people with money put it in growing markets. I'm pretty sure that 'free' electricity would be a massive economic boom in this country, and they'd make far more back in domestic investments than they would pay in taxes. Just my notion.

[TheKentuckian]

43. I don't disagree it would be a boon to the overall economy but when cost come out of taxes

it is more expensive for the wealthy and even upper middle class folks than fees because fees have to fit the scale of economy for much lower incomes have to be able to scrape up the costs. If most people can't somehow manage to pay the fees the game is up and only the very wealthy can hang.

I'm 100% in favor but let's not lose sight of reality, those at the top will pay a hell of a lot more under a tax based system because they will be subsidizing the rest of us to a large extent.

Might be good long term even for them but those folks don't care about that, it is all about cheap now and putting the burden on those least able to shoulder it.

[SamReynolds]

44. "Least able to shoulder it"

And no power to stop them from making them.

[Quantess]

37. K & R

[stuntcat]

39. If we hadn't invested so ridiculously much in fossil fuels and made them so powerful,

then we might have a future! As it is, I'm sure glad my life's half over, this century will be one sad shame after another. #humanity

[Generic Other]

46. Yet all they want to promote is nukes

Now the new one is micro-reactors.