General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy the announcement of a new Pope sparks contempt among some.
There are a lot of negative posts regarding the election of a new Pope. Why is that?
Well, the Roman Catholic Church has been a force for a very long time to keep some groups down and subservient.
The RCC has championed bans on contraception, not only for church members but for everyone. At one time, when I was in High School, contraception was illegal in many states, a measure sponsored by the RCC.
The RCC has opposed reproductive choice for women - all women, not just members of the church. It still does.
The RCC has opposed LGBT rights, and still does.
The RCC has opposed marriage equality. It still does.
The RCC considers women as second class members of its own hierarchy.
The RCC officially covered up the sexual abuse of children for a very, very long time. It still hasn't taken responsibility.
If you want to know why not everyone is eagerly awaiting the new Pope, there it is. Its very, very unlikely that the new Pope will change any of the things in the list above. Very unlikely, indeed.
Brainstormy
(2,380 posts)about the Catholic church inspires contempt in me.
HowHasItComeToThis
(3,566 posts)toddwv
(2,830 posts)naturally sparks contempt in me.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)There's some great music and art! (but that's about it)
OregonBlue
(7,754 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)my dear old gramma was scammed like that. she really believed it would bring her closer to heaven, the dirty rotten shitbag scammer.
MH1
(17,600 posts)I once worked in a call center and Sunday mornings were the worst.
valerief
(53,235 posts)Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)rather than provide and abortion.
They stole babies from poor women in Spain and sold them to wealthy couples (during Franco's reign).
The RCC has earned this animosity.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)in Ireland. The shame is borne by the RCC, or should be.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)ReRe
(10,597 posts)... Shame. The RCC is no better than right wing fundamental evangelistic Christians. Also, they support all these needless wars. Remember when GWB and his cabal took us into Iraq? Pope John Paul was old and frail. He did speak out strongly against the war before it began. But what got me was why he didn't fly over there and plomp himself down in the middle of Bagdad as a human shield. And to boot, he could have taken all but a few of the Cardinals with him and planted them all over Iraq. That war would not have happened. And GWB would probably have been defeated in the 2004 election because of it.
Why are religious people so scared? They have nothing to loose. If they are really against something, why are they not willing to put themselves in harms way to stop all the needless killing? After all, if they really believe in their faith, and God forbid harm comes to them, would they not go straight to Heaven??? Hypocrites, that's what I think of religious leaders. How's about Billy Graham and his band of evangelicals all over the country? Even they could have stopped it by planting themselves all over Iraq.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)the RCC wants you to shut up and mind your lowly place as a second-class citizen. It has no respect for us and thinks it should be able to legislate what we do and don't do with our bodies. Oh, and BTW, how dare you bring up the child rape cover up ...
So, yeah, I feel contempt oozing out of me when I see these creepy patriarchal dudes in medieval costumes picking another overlord.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)it must behave itself and respect the beliefs of others. The RCC does not, on either count. It gets no acceptance or respect from me.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)this place is amazing...
"But, But But, what about all the GOOOOOOOOOD the church does!"
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)I'm an atheist, but even this is getting pretty old. Boring narcissism "look at me" thread.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)So you disagree with the RCC, a very old, ancient, extremely inlfexible religious institute. It's not like the Kiwanis club saying blacks and whites can't share the same swimming pool or something. We know the RCC is like this. It's their club, their rules.
All apologies to Kiwanis, I just pulled that out of nowhere, I have no idea if they ever prohibited blacks and whites from using the same swimming pool.
madmom
(9,681 posts)firenewt
(298 posts)turned into a 'circle the wagons' response.
JHB
(37,159 posts)...when I find that thought popping up about some subject, I tend to make liberal use of it.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Roman Catholicism is simply imcompatible with belief in gender equality and civil rights for GLBTQ human beings.
They are actively seeking to undermine progress made over the past few centuries on that account.
So yeah, screw the next pope, whoever he is.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)When it's so obviously run by oh-so-fallible human beings.
That's enough.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)Perhaps a rephrasing is in order there?
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)A MAJOR religion....not a sect.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)MineralMan
(146,288 posts)those things. He was elected by people who don't wish to change those things. Things will not change.
WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)Rozlee
(2,529 posts)It may take 359 years like it did with Galileo, but it probably will. But, that'll mean that it'll get caught up to the 21st century almost at the year 2400.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)LiberalFighter
(50,912 posts)And I don't see any change forthcoming. Plus the fact he is 76 years old and not likely to be given time to enact change if it he was of a mind to do so.
In a way they now have an Italian pope again since his father was Italian.
SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)MineralMan
(146,288 posts)Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)dbackjon
(6,578 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)Then again so did the last two.
dbackjon
(6,578 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)We take what we can get, and few people are entirely good or entirely bad
dbackjon
(6,578 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)magical thyme
(14,881 posts)MineralMan
(146,288 posts)leaders who are for social welfare for everybody, and for reproductive choice and marriage equality. They are believers in Christianity, as well. The difference is remarkable between their views and those of the Roman Catholic Church. Their liturgy is very similar to the current Catholic liturgy. They have very similar religious beliefs. But, they support equality and individual rights.
There is choice in Christianity. One needn't accept reactionary views regarding equality issues. There's another congregation just around the corner that has views that are just fine.
Freddie
(9,265 posts)My husband is an ex-Catholic and often notes the similarity in the church service. Says we're like the Catholic Church without the misogyny, homophobia and pedophiles.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)family are ELCA Lutherans, so I have been to many services in Lutheran churches, and have talked to a number of Lutheran ministers. All have been very commited to tolerance and equality.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)could be the one hope of changing all that by stripping the church of assets and its ability to operate in nations who would put other such organized criminal activities out of business in much the same way and deny them the opportunity to exist on their soil.
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)Especially since they elected him very quickly...if it had been a controversial choice or even a charismatic one, it would have taken longer.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)Liberal In Texas
(13,548 posts)hfojvt
(37,573 posts)but the law it challenged was written in 1879 - before Catholics had much power outside of Maryland.
So I don't know that the Catholic Church sponsored those laws. Supported keeping them on the books, no doubt, but probably not a sponsor.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)sponsored by and supported by the RCC. Long after they should have been repealed, they were kept alive by the RCC. Even today, the RCC fights equality in many areas. A pox on it.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)the churches creed or teachings) I see the Catholic Church as a form of superstition and as such is used to control people.
I invite everyone to read Immanuel Kant's answer to the question of "What is enlightenment."
I went to a Catholic College and in our philosophy classes we were not permitted to discuss Kant's philosophy.
On edit my brother is a Catholic priest we are at opposite ends but he is progressive and told me last night he is worried about who will be the next Pope.
earthside
(6,960 posts)The Roman church is indeed anti-progressive.
In its 1,600 year history it has been a force mostly for oppression and for maintenance of the establishment power structure ... and it had done whatever was necessary to keep itself in power, including genocide.
Fortunately, in the beginnings of the 21st century, I'll bet upwards of eighty percent of Catholics don't believe in Catholic dogma if they even understand it.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)that the election of a new Pope would bring much needed change to that institution. As I expected, they elected a new Pope who will simply continue the repressive, medieval ways of the old Pope. Feh!
Recursion
(56,582 posts)MineralMan
(146,288 posts)The Cardinal who was elected is anti-abortion, anti-gay, and opposes liberation theology. He is a clone of the last Pope, in all respects that make any difference. There will be no changes in church doctrine regarding matters of equality.
Blue4Texas
(437 posts)But in substance and content is the same as all the good ole boys in the Catholic Church flexing muscles over women and anything sex.
LiberalFighter
(50,912 posts)I wonder what everyone on this board was saying about Ratzinger when he became pope?
amuse bouche
(3,657 posts)is a huge homophobe
"Bergoglio has affirmed church teaching on homosexuality, contraception and abortion and is considered to be among the most conservative in Latin America.
In 2010, for instance, Bergoglio stated that same-sex adoption is a form of discrimination against children and has said that same-sex marriage is a scheme to destroy Gods plan and a real and dire anthropological throwback. He strongly opposed legislation introduced in 2010 by the Argentine Government to allow for marriage equality"
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2013/03/13/1714691/new-pope-elected/
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)MineralMan
(146,288 posts)because it requires insurance coverage for contraception. I do not know its opinion on SS or Medicare, though, and don't care.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)why do you care what they think about equality and reproductive freedom?
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)because they do not speak about those. I care deeply about what they think about equality and reproductive freedom, because they speak loudly about those. I hope that clarifies my position for you.
And with that, I am done discussing this issue with you.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)But the last two popes were also hard on the global market in general.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)We should never let up on demanding they fire all clergy who molested children and those who protected them. We should never stop demanding that the church change the way it treats women and gay people. But I do get tired of the out right hatred. I think I'm going to start trashing these threads.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)I especially oppose its insistence on inequality. I'm not having any of that. I want the RCC stripped of all influence on US political realities. Period.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)can get rather vile and I just don't care for it. That's all.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)I am simply explaining some of the reasons they have those feelings.
LiberalFighter
(50,912 posts)Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)demeans people based on an old, poorly written book, who regularly calls for the ostracizing of people who are perfectly normal (gay people) and who hurt millions based on disgusting, perverted, disproven fables.
Skittles
(153,159 posts)I hear you, ABSOLUTELY
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Notice the difference ... ??
You changed the framing from "contempt" to "eagerly awaiting".
There is no way the new pope was going to be significantly different than the last one.
That's just a fact.
The only interesting things about this selection is (a) that he comes from Argentina, and (b) that he's a Jesuit, which is generally considered to be a (relatively) more intellectual and progressive segment of the church.
WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)They MIGHT led him to put his emphasis in some different places, but still nothing way off the radar.
The Catholic Church doesn't do change well, and almost never quickly.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)Some of us are eagerly awaiting for this to fall off front page news because we find the RCC downright offensive.
Stuckinthebush
(10,845 posts)The reality is that this pope will be just like the last pope and dig his heels deep into the mud of tradition.
But...the good news is that very few American Catholics even listen to a pope. So, whatever he says will go in one ear and out the other.
The bad news is that many Catholics around the world do listen to a pope.
More of the same.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)I do have a problem when people dismiss it as a fairy tale and other demeaning terms. Tolerance is a staple in DU, but Christian intolerance is almost always universally accepted. This is the only group, outside Republicans, who posters can openly mock and show contempt for without ever getting into trouble. Hell, in many instances, you can't even do that with Muslims without offending those who turn around and trash the Christian and religious faith - as that bigotry isn't accepted, and shouldn't be accepted, but often is far more vocally criticized than some of the posts I've seen on DU the past few weeks.
To be sure, criticism and not believing are perfectly acceptable and I think it's healthy to have a debate. But often, those who believe are mocked as naive or stupid on here with no subsequent rebuke by the powers to be. Then they get angry when the Vatican or the Catholic Church says something that vilifies them.
It's kind of ironic, don't you think? Yeah.
One thing that is certain - DUers equate all of Catholicism with Rome and what the Vatican says and what priest do. But that isn't the case. A majority of Catholics voted for Obama. Our vice-president is Catholic. Our Secretary of State is Catholic. Either a plurality or a majority of American Catholics support gay marriage and almost universally support contraceptives. Catholic nuns came to Obama's defense in 2012 and took to the country to push a great deal of his agenda. The first Hispanic Supreme Court Justice is Catholic. They all share a progressive vision - even if it's not exactly shared by those in Rome. Still, as it was with all of us when Bush was our president, while he was our leader, as the Pope is to a billion Catholics, he doesn't necessarily speak for all of us and it's not fair to hold us to his words ... because they're not ours.
But that doesn't mean we can't be excited for the selection of a new pope. Yet DUers are quick to remind us that it's stupid, trivial, silly and ridiculous - the whole thing! They might believe that. But to a majority of Catholics, it's an important moment that does not happen often. This is only the second time since I've been born where a pope was selected and it is exciting. Of course, I don't expect anyone on DU to share in that excitement ... but it is telling how quick you all are to tell us everything that is wrong with the Catholic Church and the future pope and the selection process and everything else associated with my faith.
I'd also like to say that DUers have now essentially defined liberal and conservative, left-wing and right-wing on two issues - gay marriage and abortion. If you oppose both, you're a right-winger and the debate is to never to happen because it's absolutely set in stone. Which is ironic, considering these same people are quick to call our President a right-winger ... even though he supports gay marriage and abortion.
But if you expected the next Pope to come out in openly embrace gay marriage and abortion, you were absolutely fooling yourself. It was not going to happen - especially the abortion thing. The best thing we can hope for is that the pope is a progressive on other issues and focuses less on abortion and gay marriage than Benedict did. Even the most progressive priests and nuns oppose abortion. That's just the way it is and always will be. Most will oppose gay marriage - as our President did not even two years ago. The evolution of this is not as fast as it should be and it will be much slower for the Catholic Church. However, like I said, that doesn't make the next pope a right-winger.
Pope Francis the 1st has the ability to reshape the Catholic Church by using inclusive rhetoric and not focusing on gays and abortion and instead, focusing on fixing the Catholic Church. I think most DUers would agree that if this pope spent his papacy fighting poverty and globalization, with barely a mention of opposition to gay rights and abortion rights, which very well could be the case, though we don't know, then there would be improvement and something to grow on in the future. You know?
Maybe he's a clone of Benedict and certainly he has come out against gay marriage - but that's to be expected. It's not necessarily those personal views that matter, because we already knew they were baked into the cake no matter who walked on to the balcony, but rather how the pope chooses his message. If he's like Benedict, whose sole intention it seemed was to demonize the left and the gays, then sure, you are absolutely justified in calling him a right-winger because that is what will have consumed his papacy instead of focusing on pressing issues that do matter to most liberals and progressives.
Myself? I'm going to take a wait and see approach. I wasn't happy with Benedict's election, but I feel more optimistic with this one because I do have hope he can focus more on poverty, the environment, the sex abuse scandals and every other issue DUers might agree with this man on since he is a Jesuit and someone who is clearly an intellectual.
So, what I'm trying to say is that the best we could hope for was a pope who didn't make it his lifelong mission to attack gays and so-called abortionists and we still may have that. Does that mean you should accept or tolerate his positions on those two matters? Absolutely not. But it's entirely possible this pope readjusts the focal point of the Church away from those social issues and more toward healing the world. If this pope speaks openly, and accepting of all God's children, then I think he will prove to be a good pope and a decent human being - even if we have huge disagreements. I know some DUers will disagree, and that's fine, but the Church was not going to radically adjust with one election. If he can set the course for more tolerance, even if it doesn't change the Church's position on key issues, then he'll have done what I expect from a pope - a man who focuses on the more important issues than whether two men want to marry.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)if you are Catholic, because all roads lead to Rome. That's the bottom line.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)By definition, I think all religious belief is superstition. However, I don't care what beliefs people hold, and don't belittle them for those beliefs.
As for the Roman Catholic Church, I do ridicule and have contempt for it. For the institution. It is a force for discrimination, inequality, and evil, in some cases, as with the sexual molestation and its cover-up.
I did not expect any changes to come from the election of a new Pope. His election is not a source of anything other than a shoulder shrug. The Church will maintain its discriminatory doctrines and will continue to push for things that harm people. I'll have none of it.
This pope opposes women's reproductive choice and equality for LGBT people. That is enough for me. I have nothing but contempt for those positions.
Individual Catholics I judge individually. The organized Roman Catholic Church, I judge as an institution.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)Hey, you're free to think whatever you want. I'm not going to approach this with a glass half empty mindset because I fully expected the new pope would be anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage. Everyone knew that. So, I take it to the next step - how will this Pope treat those individuals he disagrees with? Is he going to be vocal in his condemnation like Benedict or is he going to be more accepting with those viewpoints he disagrees with? He's spoken out on gay marriage in the past - but who's to know what he says as Pope Francis.
That's what I'm waiting for. I look at this as baby steps to a better, more inclusive church. Maybe Francis isn't that pope and he turns into an exact copy of Benedict - but then, maybe he is and that's what I want to see. But I'm not going to deduce his papacy down to two issues that I knew the next pope would be in disagreement with me on because I understood that was coming no matter what. We all knew the next pope was going to oppose both gay marriage and abortion. So, what's the next best thing? I think a pope who speaks more tolerant and I'm hopeful, though maybe it's guided by the emotions of a new pope, that's who this guy is. We'll see. I might be absolutely wrong in that regard.
But from my perspective, what are you going to do?
I'm also going to duck out. I don't much like what DU has become and I think it's time I take a break. It's just not the site I thought it was. So, if I don't reply, that's why.
Have fun and good luck.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)What am I going to do? I'm going to fight for the things that are important to me, and those include women's rights and LGBT rights. I have no concern for religious doctrine. It's of no interest to me. I am concerned only with secular issues, and the Church wrongly inserts itself in such issues, even for those who are not followers of its doctrine.
For followers of RCC doctrine and supporters of that organization, I ask: In your support, you support the organization. In so doing, you support the things I oppose. Why do you do that? But, you needn't answer the question.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)So, I will say this before I leave DU for a prolonged period.
When you supported Obama in 2008, did you also support his stance on gay marriage?
Did that put you in direct opposition to those who supported marriage equality?
There is a disconnect here. Especially coming from someone who's been vocal in their support of Obama. Obama is not perfect. Obama has taken a lot of stands on many issues that puts him in direct opposition to a great deal of progressives. That doesn't make him any less good, though, because, in 2008, he believed gay marriage to be morally wrong. It was how he approached that stance that made it easier to accept his position.
And, I might add, you also voted for Joe Biden to be vice president, who, like myself, is Catholic and by your definition, he is in support of things you oppose because he is a follower of the Catholic Church. See how easy it is to muddle shit like that?
Don't be so self-righteousness, MineralMan, it's very unbecoming and a big reason why I'm not going to miss this place during my break.
Good luck. My hope is that this new pope does not hold as much contempt toward gays as you do toward Catholics.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)In 2008, I supported marriage equality. Candidate Obama supported something less than that, but supported civil unions. He has since changed his position, in part because people like me and others encouraged him to do so. The Roman Catholic Church, as an organization utterly opposes same sex relationships. Candidate Obama supported a woman's right to choose in reproductive matters. The Roman Catholic Church utterly opposes that in all areas.
I have no contempt for Catholics as individuals. I have contempt only for the organization that is the Roman Catholic Church. You have missed that entirely.
Good luck to you.
WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)only how you conduct yourselves moment by moment, day by day.
Love and forgive, it's called peace, if you can't do that, well, I won't judge you.
LiberalFighter
(50,912 posts)instead of leaving it to the Cardinals?
CAG
(1,820 posts)get the red out
(13,462 posts)it is, and has been, a criminal enterprise along with being anti-freedom. As an institution, it is a frightful one IMO.
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)Would be one that tells the truth about basic beliefs, and how Christmas is based on a pagan religion. and that pagans are not evil. And that the beliefs that Catholics must believe are based on fiction and myths.
But he's anti-poverty. That's as much as we can expect from a Catholic pope, and he appears to be humble.
Response to MineralMan (Original post)
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MineralMan
(146,288 posts)Do you condemn same sex marriage and a woman's right to choose abortion? Personally, I mean. If you do, then you're on the wrong website.
The United States is not based on The Bible or any other religious document. The Bible has no relevance to our government.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)It's sad so many people still use that silly book of fictional stories to justify their need to control others.
And, by the way, see ya. I'm sure you're not long for DU.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)I think it was an intruder of some sort.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Dryvinwhileblind
(153 posts)...may I respectfully add that the "only good pope", is no pope at all. I excommunicated that mob of archaic pedophiles decades ago...I still, to this day, thank karma for allowing me to squeeze through that nightmare w/o being molested... abused?, that's a whole different nightmare. Fkm!
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Dryvinwhileblind
(153 posts)Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)Only those with logical reasoning ability and a moral code.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)And claims to be infallible to boot.
Really, isn't that enough?
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)LiberalFighter
(50,912 posts)Papal Impropriety
The Criminal History of the Papacy
On the other side...
[link:http://knowledgepower.hubpages.com/hub/who-was-the-best-Pope-for-the-Catholic|
A list of the best popes in the Roman Catholic Church?]
I couldn't find anything more about good popes.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)It is possible to be Catholic and a good Democrat.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)however. I'm not attacking Catholics. I'm attacking an institution. While I do not understand how people can support an institution with the doctrine of inequality held by the RCC, that's their business. If they support equality, then I'm on their side.
The Roman Catholic Church, as an organization, though? I'll have none of it, thanks.
AnnieK401
(541 posts)anytime soon. I would have been very surprised if the new Pope had been on record as supporting choice or supportive of LGBT issues.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Further, the coverage has been ridiculous. We should be attacking the media for their bizarre waste of resources to cover an easy story instead of doing their jobs.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)If you have been baptised as an infant, they still count you in their inflated numbers. There was a petition to formally leave but that site was taken down years ago. WHY????? I had no choice as a baby. I most certainly DO as an adult.
My awakening came at 15 years old in Catholic school. I chose NOT to raise my own children in this religion. So why can't I officially leave? It's been 50 years and I have not changed my mind in my old age. My children feel the same.
Let your people GO.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)You just leave. Their records don't matter. If you are still a Christian, there are a multitude of churches that share progressive views.
ButterflyBlood
(12,644 posts)Yes the church keeps baptismal records and it refuses to delete any, because in their view that would be historical revisionism, the baptisms happened regardless what the baptized currently believes. And there's also the somewhat logical thought that if someone did leave and returned a rebaptism wouldn't be necessary, so deleting them would be counter-productive in a way.
The Catholic church doesn't rely on those records for its membership figures. If it did, it'd be extremely inaccurate even not counting conversions away, since there's also cases of deaths and people moving who wouldn't update dioceses. There's no way based on a baptismal record to know where that person is currently alive and where they currently live. Diocese memberships are estimates based on other factors.
It's a non-issue. You left, you don't have any association or affiliate with that church anymore. I don't either. I don't know anyone who particularly cares about this either. I was rebaptized last year in a different church for the record.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Story is from 2011:
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)TinkerTot55
(198 posts)I have to admit that when I learned the new Pope was an Argentinian, the first thing that popped into my head was the link between the Catholic Church, Italy, Germany, and Argentina.....specifically, the strange relationship between complacent and complicit Roman Catholics, church Hierarchy, and Fascism. It would be a fascinating subject for study.
It's also very obvious that this "new" Pope, for all the symbolism the media are trumpeting ( "Look, he's all new and shiny!! Don't look at the pedophilia scandal!! Don't look at the other abuses and controversies in the Church!!" ) is almost 80 years old....at best, he won't be around very long at all. At worst, his mental and physical health will probably make him into a puppet figure to be manipulated by the real power(s) in the Church.
A truly visionary choice would have been a Pope from the same region, perhaps NOT Argentina, with Jesuit training, and a strong record on social justice issues, in short a good and compassionate, and educated man........who is in his late 50's or 60's. You know, someone who would hopefully be around long enough to afford the Church some stability, and who could do the hard work to make real change.
/Idealism off.
amuse bouche
(3,657 posts)It is disgusting that a person like this is celebrated here
If he supported the KKK would that be alright too?
union_maid
(3,502 posts)I'm not and never have been Catholic. I"m also not religious. Just saying. Their positions on things like women in the clergy and reproduction are medieval. The positions on reproduction make any kind of headway on same sex issues impossible. Sex and marriage are reserved for reproduction, period. So, that's all very bad. The sex abuse scandals are, of course, beyond words.
OTOH, they are often on the right side of issues involving state sponsored violence in this modern era. And, around and about here, if you need to feed or house someone who's destitute and they've exhausted all the social services options, you call the church. The RC church specifically. If it's after hours and you need to get someone food, you might even call the rectory and be given some of their food. Catholic charities does more, in this locality, for the poor than most other organizations. So, mixed bag.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)reproductive rights for women and marriage equality has passed beyond any support I might give for anything else. Add to that the RCCs choice to cover up sexual abuse that went on for decades, and there is no support available for that organization.
There are many Christian denominations that support women's reproductive rights and marriage equality. If I were a Christian, which I have not been since 1965, I would choose one of those. The core religious beliefs are essentially the same. There is choice for Christians. Why people choose the RCC, I have no idea, but my contempt is not for them. It is for the institution.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Interesting.
union_maid
(3,502 posts)I mean, I don't mean you're not allowed to leave. My mother did, long before I was born. She was born Catholic, but she bailed when she was in college. But what I mean is, Roman Catholicism is the majority religion where I live, but I've met very few converts to it. Everyone was born into it. Some are religious, some aren't. All go about their business without regard to edicts from the church. I think it's just part of their culture.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Calling my work to pass and normalize same sex marriage, as demanded of me by the laws of the land, and generally you know... giving a shit about humanity: 'the work of the devil'.
No, it's MY work. Of my own volition. I proudly stand on it. And he can kiss my ass.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)it loses my respect and gains my contempt.
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)People who support the RCC get what they ask for..
We could choose to be real and truly separate church from state, and let the churches tend to their flocks on worship days and in their faithful's homes, yet we keep plodding along trying to curry favor (politically) with the churches (all of them), and we wonder why things are so "complicated"..
alfredo
(60,071 posts)nikto
(3,284 posts)Another Pope John XXIII (The Real Deal)
He was special. One-of-a-kind.
If you don't know about him, read about him.
IMO, He was what a Pope is supposed to be.
NEVER FORGET THIS GUY.
Zax2me
(2,515 posts)You just don't see it near as much around here.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Christianity and Catholicism do. Look at all the creepy old Catholic men who were up in arms about wimmenfolks having access to contraception. CONTRACEPTION. In 2012. And they had the ear of the U.S. House of Representatives.
That's not to say that Islam doesn't do untold harm elsewhere in the world.
AndyTiedye
(23,500 posts)ReRe
(10,597 posts)x 1,000,000,000
The only salvation I see is that he is from South America, not North America.
Skittles
(153,159 posts)yes, that is what we are told by people who think all that is just shit to be swept under the proverbial rug
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)Despite everything else, the Church has a lot of influence with people. That varies from place to place, of course, but where there are many Catholics, the RCC does have influence. And it is used to sway people's opinions.
Fortunately, that influence often fails. In Minnesota, the Catholic Church spent a great deal of money and energy promoting last year's constitutional amendment that would have permanently banned same sex marriages. That measure did not pass, but it was a close, close call. It was another example of the Catholic Church attempting to control everyone, not just Catholics. Their effort failed, but it doesn't always fail in these situations.
No organized church should be allowed to campaign for or against any measure that affects people who are not Catholics. Period.
whistler162
(11,155 posts)RainDog
(28,784 posts)Interesting way to look at this issue.
Opposing groups like the Republican Party, whose homophobia and sexism are even less enforced than that of the Catholic church hierarchy is a form of bigotry too, I suppose, to you. Because that's what you call bigotry - opposition to a powerful group that attempts to deny full human rights to INDIVIDUALS.
ButterflyBlood
(12,644 posts)No more bigoted than disliking the Republican Party.
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)uppityperson
(115,677 posts)is catholic but do indeed bash those and the organization that seeks to limit people like that. Rather like the difference between disagreeing strongly with what a government (and its supporters) are doing but not hating the people who live in the country.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)I think that was clear in the OP.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)You were clear, no problem, piggybacking onto your thread.