A couple of points: "It's a joke, you must have no sense of humor" is a lame

[cali]

rejoinder. All jokes are not funny. And no, the argument now raging here is not trivial. It's about, as someone said, the continuum of sexism and how pervasive it is. What else is it not about? It's not about men admiring breasts. That song and dance routine had little to do with admiring breasts. It's not really about so-called crude humor either. And imo, it's not so much about objectifying women as it is about demeaning them.

That song and dance routine could have been done without doing the above. Hell, considering that Hollywood has almost as big a thing about showing the buffed torsos of young men as the breasts of young women, It could have been: "We saw your boobs, we saw your pecs". But no, it had to be about women. And a lot of the references were to serious movies where the nudity was not gratuitous.

I have no problem with men looking at breasts sexually. That's a natural enough impulse. I have no problem with crude humor though it's pretty much not my thing.


I do have a problem with the everlasting sexism that's so pervasive- and the defense of of it.

[bettyellen]

1. you're going to get some libertarian free speecher backlash for using the word

"lame". I'm not sure how the differently abled feel about the word, but libertarians here are latching on to anything they can.

[cali]

3. Well, I am someone who is literally lame.

I have Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy as a result of smashing my leg to bits a year and a half ago.

[bettyellen]

6. oh shit, sorry to hear that. I only brought it up, because some libertarian type thought I'd like

to be a spokesperson for the differently abled. I declined, because I can't even begin to imagine what that's like. Not for me to say.
Hope you heal more and more each day. Great OP.

[steve2470]

17. so sorry to hear about your RSD

Is there a good prognosis for it ? I have no clue.

[snooper2]

2. Sometimes jokes are only funny to the perpretators...

for example---

The guy in the middle is not laughing

[el_bryanto]

4. That's called Bully Humor

I have a bully around here who tried for a while to suggest I was too serious when he picked on me. Eventually had to shut him out completely.

Bully Humor is funny to bullies, less so to those being bullied.

Bryant

[snooper2]

7. never heard that term before...

a browsing of the googles, it looks like that term is used as a way to deal with bullies--

first website hit-

http://www.kickbully.com/best.html

second
http://www.ehow.com/how_8221452_use-humor-stop-bullying.html

third
http://www.transcendinclude.com/2009/02/humor-line-how-to-stop-bully.html

[el_bryanto]

8. That could work - bullies don't like being laughed at

It's my own term I have to admit - should have made that clear in my post.

Bryant

[LuckyTheDog]

5. Here is my take

I think MacFarlane was attempting to make himself the butt of the joke.

That song reminded me of a "Family Guy" episode with two guys discussing movies. All they could talk about where the nude scenes, which they had timed to the second, as in "and 17 minutes, 14 seconds in, she took her shirt off."

In that scene, the joke was about what TOTAL LOSERS those guys were because that's all they bothered to notice about any movie.

I took the "boob song" skit to be an attempt at the same kind of irony. That's what Seth MacFarlane does -- he portrays complete losers doing the kinds of inappropriate things that losers do and say.

Not everyone gets the joke. Some people who get the joke don't appreciate it or think it is funny.

And that is probably why MacFarlane probably should not have been in front of a large, general audience. His stuff lives mainly on the Cartoon Network's Adult Swim. That's where it belongs.

[redqueen]

9. Do you think the majority of his fans think he's mocking and ridiculing men who obsess about boobs

as total losers?

[LuckyTheDog]

10. I have no idea

But I do know he's not a "main stage" act. He's clearly not for everybody and does not try to be. Putting him on the Oscars dilutes both brands.

[reorg]

12. of course they do

which is not to say that the sight of naked breasts is unwelcome to most men. Of course we look at them, and of course it is self-mockery to a certain extent to laugh at those losers obsessing about boobs. Oh yes, I still remember some of the scenes that were mentioned.

Another aspect of the joke was, as has been mentioned before, that these movies are all extraordinary. So, no harm done if those who really didn't get the joke are now motivated to watch them, for whatever reason. They may get more than they want to, and there is nothing wrong about that.

[redqueen]

14. If it is good natured back slapping fun, then that is sad. nt

[reorg]

18. no, I think you are underestimating this guy

He can be quite subtle. I can only speak for myself, but I never had the impulse to slap anybody's back while watching Family Guy. I was crying with laughter, sure, about some episodes such as the one featuring Bill Clinton. More often I find it just slightly amusing.

[redqueen]

19. Back slapping in the sense that you come away thinking 'ha ha isn't it cute how we're total losers'

And not 'holy shit that movie was showing a rape and I'm still fixated on 'boobs', I'm shocked, and likely to do some soul searching over this and reconsider the way I look at women's bodies'

[reorg]

24. as anybody who has spent some time on IMDB forums can confirm

it really doesn't matter at all what a movie is actually, mostly, about - whenever it has nude scenes people will discuss them extensively.

When The Reader came out I wasted some time on the respective board. One of the most passionately debated questions (to my great surprise at the time, actually) was if it was really "necessary" for Kate Winslet to show her boobs ... and no, it wasn't those losers fixated on boobs, or at least not ones who would admit it, it was self-described feminists and conservatives who were concerned about this issue. In a movie about the holocaust, go figure.

[redqueen]

25. Thanks for making it clear. It's the back-slapping kind. nt

[reorg]

27. I'm sorry? Feminists discussing nudity in films about the holocaust

are the back-slapping kind? Or what else am I supposed to make of your weird observation?

[redqueen]

28. When I spelled it out clearly, you changed the subject entirely.

This isn't rocket science.

[reorg]

30. You made some unwarranted accusations

whereas I stayed with the topic.

One of those movies mentioned was The Reader, I thought it was an excellent movie, raising issues that had been rarely talked about before. While I do remember the nude scenes with Kate Winslet and the young male lead, I was never "obsessing" about them. On the contrary, I was aghast that self-described feminists and/or "conservatives" from the US found it worthwhile to discuss whether these scenes were really "necessary" or rather "gratuitous" (a complaint you can find about pretty much all movies with nude scenes).

Actually, some of those self-described feminists and/or conservatives pointed out what Seth MacFarlane's parody hinted at: She ALWAYS SHOWS!!! They found this to be very scandalous indeed, and somehow unworthy of a famous film star. As I said, these threads - just as similar threads on other movies - kept growing and growing for weeks on end. Talk about obsessive, that's where I mostly see it.

[redqueen]

31. We were discussing the type of mocking Seth does.

I asked if it was good natured... the alternative being critical.

When I spelled out the difference, you interpreted that as making accusations? Interesting.

You now seem intent on discussing this other topic you're interested in so have fun with that. And thanks again for providing an insight into just what type of mocking it is we feminists are supposed to be appreciating.

[reorg]

33. oh, I see, you believe there are just two "types of mocking"

and if it is not unequivocally used to shame and blame something it must be because it is used to reaffirm certain attitudes. OMG I hope I didn't use the word "subtle" anywhere near you.

[redqueen]

35. If you think it's some other type, say so. nt

[reorg]

36. somebody else already explained it very well

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2431040

As you may see, a critical impetus can take several directions at once.

[reorg]

11. It should be obvious that your interpretation is spot on

and I am not surprised that certain critics don't even try to rebut it.

Like with this very similar, somewhat more comprehensive take:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2431040

[cali]

13. But it's not at all obvious to a a large segment of DU.

[reorg]

15. most of them admit they don't know Seth MacFarlane's work

and I'm pretty sure none of them is able to show that the above mentioned interpretation is false.

[LuckyTheDog]

16. They should watch 10 episodes of "Family Guy"

If they did, they would get it. That humor is not for everyone, so they might not like it. But they would get it.

[reorg]

20. not sure about that

Maybe they'll admit that he is not that simple-minded as they now make him out to be, but still ... he has no respect for taboos which puts him squarely against much of what they stand for.

[Arugula Latte]

21. The entire Oscar performance by MacFarlane had an ugly misogynistic tone

The Rhianna/Chris Brown "joke," a crack at Adele's weight, a crack at Jennifer Aniston about her being a stripper, the sickening comment about that wonderful 9-year-old actress and George Clooney, and so on. The entire message conveyed was that women mean count for nothing more than what men think of their bodies. So, I don't agree that he was spoofing idiots with the boobs song.

[Posteritatis]

22. The entire existence of MacFarlane has an ugly misogynistic tone. (nt)

[ZombieHorde]

23. I like your OP, but I do think showing breasts in movies is usually gratuitous.

Nudity very rarely adds to the story. The same exact story can be told with the breast covered by camera angles. Actually seeing the actress nude is "extra" to the story, in most cases.

[upaloopa]

26. I am a man and I thought that song was juvenile.

I think songs like that and the other issue here today the orgasm gap have something in common. That is the fact that so many men are children when it comes to sex. "I saw your breasts" is something I heard in grade school.
I see these kinds of guys on the beach. It's as if they think that the women come to the beach for the men's entertainment.
It embarrasses me because it gives the rest of us a bad reputation.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

29. Well...

Not everybody thinks everything is funny. Personally I'm not a Steve Carrell fan and my friends think I'm insane. Other people hate Seinfeld, Louis CK, Chris Rock, Tina Fey. Name a comedian, and you'll find a host of people who think he or she is not funny.

Fair enough.

But it's ANOTHER THING altogether to say, "That guy isn't funny AND he's a racist" or "That guy's not funny AND he's misogynist" or "Homophobic" or "Anti-Semitic" or Whatever.

You don't dig Seth MacFarlane? Fine. He'll get along just fine without your support. But your trashing the guy because you don't like his style is utter and complete bullshit. You're basically saying that your views are the only views and anybody who transgresses against your personal taste must be a knuckle-dragging troglodyte.

Has it occurred to you that MacFarlane's song and dance number was an attempt to MOCK the puerile way that Hollywood objectifies women? Did it occur to you that MacFarlane might actually AGREE with your sentiments, and is using his own brand of over-the-top, outrageous humor to make the point?

[Johonny]

32. humor much like sexism is a continuum

it is very hard to know where the line is drawn as some comedic acts are of course set to be intentionally mean spirit, and the comedic foil not likable. In general people are more willing to accept it if it is surround by a greater context like say Archie Bunker, but other times the comedic character is unlikable and their is no context. Andy Kaufman created several such characters. I won't pretend to tell comedians where to draw their line as many have reached success with unlikable characters, although I think it is safe to say those that do this will and do draw scorn. If the comedian can not take the heat then they should not perform their act. That said I think you will find most successful comedians are generally aware that not every bit they do will be accepted by every audience member because once again people's sense of humor is a continuum.

[smirkymonkey]

34. K&R

this.

[bhikkhu]

37. Agree - the number of times I've heard that about racist, sexist, homophobic, vile jokes...

its the all-encompassing excuse. So what if its obnoxious and demeaning and foul and juvenile and hateful - its funny!