Why I'm against pot being legalized

[quinnox]

I was talking to a young person, a guy in his early 20s, and he was telling me how just about all his friends like to smoke pot. And he said if pot was legalized, that it would influence all the kids who don't smoke it, to start smoking it too, and the young generation would be all potheads. Basically, the jist of it was that he thinks, and I agree with him, that a lot of young people are stupid and easily influenced by peer pressure, and it would not be a good thing to legalize pot because it would send a bad signal about other drugs as well, and influence a bunch of young people who ordinarily wouldn't experiment with it, to start. Which could lead them, possibly, to get into much worse stuff too.

I found his argument, especially him being a young person, and a party "hip" popular guy type who knows what the young people are thinking and how they act, persuasive. What do you think about his points?

[HERVEPA]

1. Ahhhhh. Reefer Madness!

[madokie]

17. My first thought

beware the evil weed!

[jberryhill]

2. Does he smoke tobacco? Do his friends?

[Rex]

3. Might as well make booze illegal too.

And cigarettes.

[hobbit709]

4. BS

[EastKYLiberal]

5. People own their bodies and should be able to do with them as they wish.

No exceptions.

End of argument.

[randome]

33. Does that include using cocaine and heroin? Meth?

The majority, I think, prefers those remain illegal.

[Comrade Grumpy]

66. I think no one should be punished for what they put in their bodies, absent harm to others.

But mine is a distinctly minority opinion. Legalizing drugs other than marijuana never polls over 10%.

Still, I don't think drug prohibition is either necessary nor morally or ethically defensible.

If drug users commit crimes, arrest them for those crimes, not for using drugs.

[quinnox]

57. For the good of society I think some things should remain illegal

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. Alcohol is far more damaging than pot

Even with today's higher THC.

Also, unlike alcohol, pot has very valid medical uses.

So are you bringing back prohibition?

[4_TN_TITANS]

82. I grudgingly agree, because guess who picks up the medical tab

for people too far gone on hard drugs?

[jberryhill]

6. Ooops, forgot...

I'll just get this one up before the thread develops....

[mikeysnot]

7. those that smoke already do

I think lifting the stigma of it being "illegal" might influence some to try it, but unless they like the affects, they will not become "potheads". It is not addicting.

There are a lot of famous potheads out there that are very successful and rich.

[Brickbat]

8. "The young generation would be all potheads."

REALLY.

[Erose999]

38. As if they're not already.

[KamaAina]

9. Do all the hip young people huff glue or spray paint?

Huffing is perfectly legal.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

86. Huffing is not legal in FL. n/t

[KamaAina]

88. I'm sure that that's all but wiped out huffing down there

[Sekhmets Daughter]

89. Did someboy claim it did?

[KamaAina]

98. Nope. Merely satirizing the whole notion of drug prohibition.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

99. I agree... n/t

[MADem]

10. The kids will see their parents and grandparents smoking the occasional bit o' weed,

and they'll regard it like Rob Roys and Sidecars...OPF. Old People's Fun.

That'll make it "uncool," at least for a time!

[Blue_In_AK]

29. That's probably pretty accurate.

I never made a secret of my pot smoking as my kids were growing up. While they all tried it out when they were teenagers, as they probably would have in any event, two of them never smoke it now and the youngest only occasionally.

And as for legalizing it, just because something is legal doesn't necessarily mean that people are going to indulge. Alcohol is perfectly legal, but many people don't drink it at all.

[KansDem]

11. I wonder if this was considered during Prohibition...

...and with the ratification of the 21st Amendment?

I imagine you had similar concerns about how making alcohol legal would lead to "young people who ordinarily wouldn't experiment with it, to start."

[msongs]

12. smoke pot, yes. murder children using drones, no. nt

[arcane1]

13. He used the "gateway drug" argument? Smoking pot might lead them to vodka?

Pot was legal from the Big Bang all the way up to the 1930's, and humanity did ok.

[we can do it]

14. Don't buy that for a minute. Kids smoked quite a bit of weed in the 70's when I was in school.

The penalties were much stronger then and I think more societal/peer pressure then, it was much n more noticeable with music, art, etc. People were having 3 martini lunches and drinking and driving was very common then, too.

[Hugabear]

15. So what?

Alcohol is legal, but not all young people drink.

Tobacco is legal, but not all young people smoke.

Yes, there would probably be an increase in people using pot. So what? We should continue to criminalize its use and throw people in jail based on that?

[DollarBillHines]

16. I have been smoking pot for 46 years, and in all that time...

I have not known of one person - outside of a few people on probation and/or parole - who chose not to smoke due to the illegality of the weed.

[Bay Boy]

93. Then that means we've never met...

...if I could buy a joint legally at Walmart (or where ever) I would. I have no idea where to go buy an illegal joint.

[Wait Wut]

18. As an unyoung person, I disagree.

Being legal or illegal has nothing to do with the influence of peer pressure. Though I'm aging quickly, I still remember why I tried pot the first time. Because I wanted to know what it felt like. I didn't give a damn if it was illegal or not. Alcohol was legal and I tried that, too. Neither had anything to do with peer pressure, either. Both I tried in the comfort and safety of my own bedroom..alone (same with cigarettes). I hated my parents and wanted to rebel.

'Getting into worse stuff' goes along with everything I've said. I tried 'worse' stuff for the same reasons I tried everything else. Curiosity.

[Brickbat]

19. Your whole thing about "a party 'hip' popular guy gype who knows what the young people are thinking

and how they act" makes me think of this Simpsons clip:

[RedCappedBandit]

20. What nonsense.

[Democracyinkind]

21. I just don't get what's so bad about smoking weed...

Is your hip friend just as concerned about the peer pressure issues with alcohol?

I just don't see how my use of mj is anyone other's business. I don't show up to work high or drive high or anything like that. What is so fucked up about me? I just don't get it. I find I function way better than my boss who drinks his glass of wine everyday. As if consuming mind altering stuff doesn't come as naturally to humans as striking up a conversation with someone. I just don't see the problem. We should either reprohibit alcohol and be consistent about it or just give up on this scam already. The reason that MJ is illegal are economic and racist and have no medical explanation that would not also count against alcohol or tobacco.

[OriginalGeek]

22. I think it's a little arrogant to assume that what I might do

in a given situation is what everyone else will do.


I honestly believe the number of _recreational_ users will stay pretty much the same. Most people are already on one side or another - if a person is against drugs now he or she will most likely remain so. A few people might give it a try and since i also believe it's safer than aspirin I have no problem with that.

I can only hope that medicinal usage will drastically increase. Plenty of people could benefit greatly from medical MJ and I wish they could all have it as freely as they need or want.

I smoked a lot of weed in my youth. I quit shortly after I got married (27 years this July). IF recreational use was legalized where I live I would probably indulge every once in a while.

[eShirl]

23. BWAHAHAHAHA.

[SomethingFishy]

35. +1

Laughter is all this post deserves.

[patrice]

24. I think it's regressive to the lowest common denominator, a trait that LOSES all kinds of values,

because of fear of risks that are not ameliorated by the proposed course of action.

People who are vulnerable to what you are describing are not made less vulnerable by avoiding their vulnerabilities. Those vulnerabilities only transfer to other behaviors and generate losses there, perhaps worse losses the longer they remain unchallenged.

It is challenge, btw, that develops muscles, physical and psychological. The development of those "muscles" not only protects and guides a person through chaos, it also FREES other related abilities that would have been handicapped had the challenge never been personally and individually addressed and appropriately processed.

All of this has a lot to do with the very real, very concrete, difference between "could" and "did".

[liberal_at_heart]

25. where's our unrec button?

Last edited Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:37 PM - Edit history (2)

When I was a teenager I hung out with other teenagers who did pot, LSD, and drank alcohol. I had an occasional drink, never did LSD, had a hit off of joint maybe once. this "kid" does not know what other kids would do. He can only speak to what he would do.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

59. I never did LCD either...

I've done a lot of LSD, however. I'm trying to figure out what exactly you do with liquid crystal displays to get a buzz, however. I've got a few spares laying around, and if there's a good trip to be had...

[liberal_at_heart]

64. lol. okay you got me

Let me know if you find a way to get a good buzz from a liquid crystal display.

[mitchtv]

68. heh, that's why they steal flat screens ?

nt

[get the red out]

26. restrict it like alcohol

Make people have to be 21 years old to buy it. I know that doesn't prevent kids from getting alcohol, but kids certainly get pot now illegal or not, and have as long as I can remember. It might make it just another thing and not so big of a deal if it were legalized. I have read that in Europe young people have much less incidence of binge drinking than here in the US because alcohol is no big deal. Prohibition seems to often produce the opposite effect from what is intended.

[Make7]

27. Just look at what a drug infested hellhole the Netherlands has become. ( n/t )

[immoderate]

34. Portugal too!

--imm

[idwiyo]

72. add to it Spain and Italy

[Recursion]

51. Well... ummm... yes, actually

The Netherlands are having some serious problems from the amount of drug use there (both among the Dutch and tourists), and are re-thinking some of their policies.

[Comrade Grumpy]

69. The conservative Dutch government sought to ban foreigners from the cannabis cafes.

But ended up making it only a local option after Amsterdam told them to fuck off.

I think they have marijuana use levels lower than the US, and overall drug use levels in line with the rest of Europe.

[Go Vols]

28. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022311338

[MrSlayer]

30. Quite frankly, I think he's an idiot.

I think his points are ridiculous and throwing the "gateway" nonsense in there makes it twice as bad. All marijuana prohibition does is create criminals, pack our prisons and enrich cartels.

[justabob]

32. It is already easier for teens/minors to get pot (and other things) than alcohol

If they wanted to try it, they could get their hands on it with minimal effort. There may be a few who would try it if it became legal, but not the plague of Spiccolis you seem to be worried about.

[Lint Head]

36. If heroin was legalized tomorrow would you start doing it?

If pot is legalize there should be age restrictions just like alcohol that kills approximately 25,000 people a year directly and even more indirectly.

[quinnox]

41. No

But I'm not a teenager either. I'm well past that time, and I know I was pretty stupid at that time too, like most young people.

[LadyHawkAZ]

37. I think it's the same argument I heard in high school 25 years ago

It's not new. Pot was easily obtained in school even when I was there. The peer pressure he describes already exists. I doubt there would be a huge leap in experimentation simply because of legalization- alcohol is already legal (and much more harmful), but use of marijuana in teens already outpaces use of alcohol, which would theoretically be easier to get. The "gateway drug" argument is only valid because the people dealing the already-illegal substance also deal in other products, and will push them to make a profit. The one thing that legalization would accomplish is to ensure that all the many many users, which exists whether its legal or no, won't come out of the experience with a prison record the way they do now.

If you really want to slow down the rate of new users, try creating a world that they don't need to escape from. It's the only thing that's ever going to work.

[dairydog91]

39. Anyone who wants to get stoned can already get pot.

I was talking to a young person, a guy in his early 20s, and he was telling me how just about all his friends like to smoke pot. And he said if pot was legalized, that it would influence all the kids who don't smoke it, to start smoking it too

Gosh, it almost sounds like everyone who wants to get stoned or feels peer pressure to get stoned is already getting stoned. Maybe those kids who don't smoke it have decided that they don't want to smoke it, and that decision is the only thing stopping them from getting high.

Which could lead them, possibly, to get into much worse stuff too.

Which is a bogus fear. People will often start out with legal stuff because it's more available; if booze was illegal and pot was legal, people would be crying about how whiskey is a gateway drug. Marijuana does not "lead" to heroin/cocaine/meth, any more than alcohol "leads" to other drugs. The screwups who become hardcore addicts were looking for other highs; lots of people stick to milder stuff like booze and pot because it provides an enjoyable high when used in moderation.

Marijuana, directly, is a gateway to nothing more frightening than eating two entire pans of brownies, watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer reruns, or enjoying the complete works of Yanni. Not that I'd know from personal experience.

[Earth_First]

40. Utter nonsense. n/t

[Puzzledtraveller]

42. It's no fun if it's legal!

Really, I have this theory that legalization will take the high out of it all.

[ThomThom]

43. I think it will go the other way

I think all the young people that want to smoke are smoking and those that aren't probably won't be interested even if legal. The demand will go down as shown where legalization has happened. I think also that if you had to show ID to purchase it would stop a lot of young people that would start at 13 or 14 years of age. I do not think minors should smoke anything.

[mike_c]

44. his "point" is so highly influenced by prohibition that it's not particularly relevant....

First, he assumes that it's a bad thing to smoke marijuana-- that's the effect of prohibition speaking. I've smoked pot since I was 15, daily for long stretches (read YEARS). It's part of the culture where I live. I'm a working professional scientist and academic, a university professor, active citizen, union officer and labor activist. I would challenge anyone to find any way in which pot smoking has negatively impacted my life.

[quinnox]

48. he said his friends are all potheads

we are talking young people who smoke pot all the time. It is not the kind of casual use you are talking about.

I think smoking pot long term, how can that be a good thing for your lungs? I don't agree that there are no possible harmful effects health wise either.

[mike_c]

85. perhaps I should have added that I'm 57 and in good health....

Certainly I would agree that inhaling any smoke is not good for one's lungs, but that's a minor problem for most pot smokers. We're talking 5-10 lungfuls of smoke, give or take, most days. For most, the harm is minor, especially when weighed against what I perceive as the broader benefits of marijuana use. However, that should be a personal choice, not one imposed by law, and protecting lungs was certainly NEVER part of the motivation for prohibition. I mean, tobacco? Aerosol soot? Hydrocarbon vapors? Smog? And, of course, there are numerous smoke-free ways to ingest the psychoactive compounds in marijuana anyway.

What other harmful health effects are you talking about? After 40 years of pot smoking-- and I smoke it, for the most part-- I've noted no deleterious effects at all. Despite having allergy related asthma (which pot smoking seems not to ever affect). I work out at the gym, I cycle, I used to be an avid hiker until my feet and knees began to age. After 40+ years of smoking pot, the worst effects I've suffered seem to be from the 40+ years rather than from the marijuana. I'm speaking from direct, personal experience.

[patrice]

87. Pot, anything, can become a crutch in environments that are not enriched by opportunities,

appropriate to each individual, to engage in other, perhaps more authentic, forms of motivation, or they may lack the skills to discover and address what forms of motivation are available and, thus, to progress toward whatever motivates them more fully.

I rarely smoke at all any more (I don't like street-weed), but I've known people for whom it was an important PART of their life. Their lives were built to accommodate it whenever they wanted it. Usage went up, plateaued, and in most cases also went back down by quite a bit, and in some cases disappeared almost entirely. Some of those people are worth several millions of dollars now, some have high status careers in the technology, others are small extremely dedicated independent professionals.

I suppose it is a salient point that the generation(s) that I'm talking about are perhaps almost 2 full generations previous to the one to which you are referring. So it's not really the same thing. If I had to guess what the important differences are, I'd begin with the sense that we weren't inhabiting a time so dog-eat-dog dire, not so socially darwinian in all things that it was actually somewhat more possible to explore one's own organic motivations for existence and that desire lead a lot of people through and beyond various dependencies.

[LanternWaste]

45. Creeping like a communist it's knocking at our doors turning all our children into hooligans and..."

"Creeping like a communist, it's knocking at our doors, turning all our children into hooligans and whores. Voraciously devouring the way things are today. Savagely deflowering the good ol' U.S.A...."

[Brickbat]

49. That made my day.

LOVE Alan Cumming.

[LanternWaste]

56. One of the funniest movies I've ever watched...

Reefer Madness, The Musical is one of the funniest movies I've ever watched...

If you get the chance, give it a watch and you'll have a great chuckle or two.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

46. 2 legal things that can be in this argument is Tobacco and Alcohol.

Just change weed to one of them.
Remember that when it happens there will be age regs. and rules on people under age.

[napoleon_in_rags]

47. His argument is based on a false idea he will have access.

It has the form: If alcohol were legal, high school kids would all become alcoholics.

The real reason when I was in high school we didn't drink but instead smoked pot and took acid was because alcohol was regulated in a way that supplied the majority of the (21+) market, but drugs were not. So there was no black market for booze: adults could buy it in a store without fuss, so there wasn't sufficient demand for a black market. As a result we under 21 folks had a hard time getting booze. But the drug markets were driven by huge adult demand, but totally unregulated. So high school kids could tap a large and sophisticated adult run and driven black drug market for whatever they wanted. It was easier to get drugs than alcohol, so that's what we did.

Regulation of pot like alcohol gets rid of all of this, and will be good for keeping our kids sober.

[lame54]

50. so you are for putting these people in for-profit jails...

and ruining their lives and families

[quinnox]

53. I didn't say that

But I do believe that it could lead to bad and negative implications for society here, if pot was legalized.

That said, I think medical use pot is fine.

I think pot users should not be jailed, but there should be penalties such as fines for being caught.

[lame54]

58. That is currently what is happening...

and that should be your focus

[LanternWaste]

62. What then is the precise and relevant difference...

"But I do believe that it could lead to bad and negative implications for society here..."

What then is the precise and relevant difference, in this context, between pot and booze?

[quinnox]

67. I think alcohol is not viewed as a "drug" by and large, by society here

whereas pot is widely viewed as a drug. Alcohol is so commonplace, that it is looked at differently by most of society. Whether that is a good or bad thing is a whole separate issue.

[lame54]

83. I don't think you've thought this through enough

[PeaceNikki]

84. It doesn't matter how it's 'viewed'. Alcohol is a drug. A deadly one, at that.

Far far worse than pot.

[Angry Dragon]

52. Pizza sales would go up

[Rider3]

54. You could say the same with alcohol,

and alcohol is a much worse vice. Pot should be legalized. Period.

[spanone]

55. that's bullshit. they are already influenced by peer pressure.

[phleshdef]

60. The gateway drug argument is so old and tired and invalid.

Marijuana is no more or less a gateway drug than alcohol is. And for a LOT of marijuana users, probably the vast majority, the experimentation into getting high begins and ends at marijuana.

And even if it did cause some individuals to open themselves up to the possibility of something harder, that's not a legitimate reason for it to remain illegal. That reason simply isn't good enough. Slippery slope arguments are based on speculation and should never be a basis for legislation.

You can't really overdose on weed. And if you quit smoking it after a prolonged period of time, you don't end up suffering delirium tremors and the other possibly fatal withdrawal symptoms you get from the hard stuff. Alcohol is far more dangerous as far as the level of addiction and physical dependency goes.

[SammyWinstonJack]

61. Series?

[quinnox]

65. yep, I realize it is an unorthodox opinion here

But there it is, all the same.

[patrice]

100. Many of us actively resist orthodoxy here, even in regard to this question. This has to do

with the particular culture of this board, most of the opinions and analysis you will see here are as authentic as possible to the individuals who offer them.

[Riftaxe]

63. There is a middle ground

Israeli Company Grows Marijuana Minus the High

Those who truly want it for medical purposes can have a win, and society can also have a win with fewer dazed people shuffling about.

[Autumn]

70. I like it legalized. Young people will no longer be arrested for possession

and I think that's a good thing. A lot of young people are easily influenced by peer pressure for a lot of different things, not just pot.

[zappaman]

71. Completely disagree.

Anyone who has wanted marijuana has always been able to get it regardless of it's illegality.
I think you would be surprised how many kids turn down the chance to get high.

[idwiyo]

73. You could have spent a little bit of time looking for report papers from countries that have soft

policy for possession of drugs for personal use and how much the number of addicts grew after implementation of the policy... Instead you asked one person and took their word for it?

Sorry but I don't buy that you are serious and looking for honest opinion.

[NightWatcher]

74. Breast milk is a gateway... Most heroin junkies tried breast milk first

[farminator3000]

75. why you are mistaken in your 'thoughts'. did you imagine this 'hipster' in a dream?

weed has been illegal for ~76 years:

“Anslingerian” Politics: The History of Anti ... - Leda Home Page
leda.law.harvard.edu/leda/data/352/Ransom.pdf
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
by JJ Ransom - 1999 - Cited by 1 - Related articles
since the first federal marijuana legislation was passed in 1937

http://leda.law.harvard.edu/leda/data/352/Ransom.pdf
\Anslingerian" Politics:
The History of Anti-Marijuana Sentiment in Federal Law and How Harry Anslinger's
Anti-Marijuana Politics Continue to Prevent the FDA and Other Medical Experts from
Studying Marijuana's Medical Utility.

***

so how did humanity survive for 10,000+ years with this horrible scourge?

which is actually better for you 10-100x better than most of the poison sold as medicine?

AND not physically addictive?

[DonCoquixote]

76. Acutally,the reverse would happen

Let's take cigarettes. Now, the folks in Richmond and Winston-Salem still spend BILLIONS trying to get young people to smoke. It is also funny how now, every young celebrity from Leonardo DiCaprio to Pink to Natalie Portman to Scarlett Johansson to Britney Spears is seeing smoking, both in Movies and on the red carpet.

Funny thing though, despite all this, teen smoking is dropping.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/20/us-usa-smoking-youth-idUSBRE8BJ03320121220

In part because schools focused on making smoking uncool, rather than forbidden.

[farminator3000]

77. have you heard of a little country called Portugal?

"The impact in the life of families and our society is much lower than it was before decriminalization," says Joao Castel-Branco Goulao, Portugual's "drug czar" and president of the Institute on Drugs and Drug Addiction, adding that police are now able to re-focus on tracking much higher level dealers and larger quantities of drugs.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

[PeaceNikki]

78. Um.... are these lemmings all alcoholics?

I'll take a generation of "potheads" over alcoholics any day, all day. If it keeps them off the booze, I say hooray.

[bluestateguy]

79. We need to stop filling up the prisons and clogging the courts with non-violent drug offenders

The problems you cite may be real, but the far worse problem is the multiplication of the prison population and cost of law enforcement for non-violent drug offenses.

[farminator3000]

81. The Emperor Wears No Clothes <--- if you are a 'reading type', try this

http://www.jackherer.com/thebook/

[surrealAmerican]

90. Your young friend does not sound like he's thought this through.

Alcohol is legal, as are cigarettes, yet his generation are not all alcoholic chain smokers.

It may mean more people will try pot, but most of them won't suddenly decide to be "pot heads" - kind of like the way a lot of kids try cigarettes, but decide they don't really want to smoke.

[Scuba]

91. People die from smoking "fake pot". No one has ever died from smoking pot. Case closed.

[BlueJazz]

92. Instead of Pot.. substitute Coke or Pepsi

[TeamPooka]

94. Prohibition is a failed public polcy...

again.
Legalizing cannabis will convert a money pool controlled by cartels into a stream of revenue, jobs and taxes that will benefit all citizens.

[Egalitarian Thug]

95. Do any facts enter into your process in forming this opinion?

I mean, you've hit most of the drug warrior talking points here, but there is no evidence to support any of it, and they've been looking for it for half a century.

Everybody that wants to smoke pot can smoke pot any time they feel like it right now. Further, many more kids are smoking it than probably should because it's supplied through a black market and those suppliers don't care who is buying. A legal supply will virtually end the black market by reducing the price to a point that the profits won't justify the risk of selling to underage kids.

[loyalsister]

96. He makes some good points

I would put it another way. I am sort of on the fence listening to all sides. I used to be 100% pro, but I have seen some valid points.
Pot is not now a gateway drug. If it were legal it could become one. It also would likely be another form of self medication that prevents people from getting help with mental illness. I now see some reasonable concerns in the opposition camp.

[Upton]

97. I don't believe you talked to anybody...

but you've gotten yourself a whole lot of replies with your reefer madness redux...so, I guess it's mission accomplished..

[NoOneMan]

101. You are implying there is egregious harm if all his friends started smoking it too

Maybe, just maybe, his friends would start smoking pot too. So what? What's the worse that will happen? Will they be too stoned to source some beer?

[geckosfeet]

102. I'd rather have stoned kids than alcoholic kids.

I think his points are unsupportable.