General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhat type of person does it take to be a sniper??
Obviously not someone that has a lot of respect for life, so long as the person they are killing is the "enemy". The "enemy" is non-human. I'm sure there are many rationalizations before they pull the trigger? They are doing it for their country. They are only killing them before they kill you or your friends. That is the nature of "war". They will sleep like a baby after a good head shot. Have you ever wondered what it takes to be a sniper?
liberalmuse
(18,672 posts)I posted something that even surprised me on a comments section. It was pretty cold and callous, and I'm not proud of it. I guess I'm tired of gun worshipers and their "heroes". The scientist or doctor working in a lab to help cure a disease is a hero. Someone with a large body count due to being blessed with the ability to scope a living, breathing, moving target with their weapon and pull a trigger at a distance is not. And if you take a soldier with PTSD to a gun range, even this civilian (who was once military) could tell you that it may not end well. Why would someone who wants to help soldiers take them to a gun range? Flame away. It's a legitimate question that my mind is unable to reconcile, so any thoughts would be welcome.
11 Bravo
(23,926 posts)He seems like a really nice, normal kid. If I didn't already know, I would have never guessed his background.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Ian David
(69,059 posts)I suspect the real life version is more like the Vietcong sniper in Full Metal Jacket.
Remember when the sniper deliberately wounded someone so they could take shots at anyone trying to rescue them?
NSFW:
kentuck
(111,098 posts)The sniper was a young teenage girl?
Ian David
(69,059 posts)coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)rag-tag body of irregulars was able to unleash a can of whoop-ass on the world's most powerful military.
RC
(25,592 posts)had a problem with telling local men with weapons shooting at them, from the local women and children just trying to live their lives and survive, as best they could in the middle of a war they did not start.
We seem to keep forgetting that all too often, we are the uninvited invaders into their country. So, yeah, they have a little added incentive to fight a little harder to defeat THEIR enemy (US) and drive them out.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)We're not really any better at it than any other country. The Soviets got their butts kicked in Afghanistan.
Invading armies usually have the huge disadvantage. And when the population is opposing the invaders too...it's damn near impossible to hold the territory for very long.
hlthe2b
(102,282 posts)whose distance from the damage wrought by the bombs dropped makes denial of the impacts or the inevitable civilian casualties a bit easier, I should think.... Even more so, the new breed of drone pilot thousands of miles away, watching only from satellite feeds.
But, no, I haven't even wanted to think what it takes to be a sniper. But, we have them in the military, in the secret service, in police swat forces throughout the country... And, I'd imagine many instances when we would be glad they are there.
The leading reason I don't want a gun is the possibility of having to live with taking a life--and quite possibly an "innocent" life. So, no, I don't know how I could rationalize it on a regular basis. I'm glad I personally haven't had to find out.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)What kind of person does it take to order strikes on people they never even see - and then have them cover it up the way Yemen did for the US by claiming it was them doing it to take the heat off of us?
I worry less about the individual sniper and more about the larger collective who orders such strikes as those mentioned.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)One who carefully plans an approach, stalks the target, and has a planned retreat to safety. One who endures the difficulty of patient movement in concealment with great fortitude and who does not become anxious when in danger, but coolly completes the mission and escapes. One who does not have qualms about killing when the opportunity is right.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)The problem here is that you are making an assumption based on nothing other than your idealized version or some movie you saw.
JI7
(89,250 posts)help her pay for college .
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)He was sixteen. His mom signed off on it and by eighteen, he was serving in the jungles of Vietnam.
TheMadMonk
(6,187 posts)The simple truth is, killing another human being is not an enormously difficult thing. Like almost all of human behaviour it's a learned skill. The existence of the Roman Empire, not to mention a few others before and since, owed their esistence to it being a learned skill.
All it ever takes is to think of people as things.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)and celebration of guns, and callousness here at home, is very difficult for me to understand.
What bothers me most is some yahoo who intentionally buys a "sniper" rifle or other lethal weapon in this country and practices with it, even with targets that resemble people.
bluedigger
(17,086 posts)I'd say a sniper needs to be cold, calculating, self-sufficient, unassuming, stoic, and above all, patient. They tend to be independent operators more than leaders, and are generally pretty humble people that avoid the limelight.
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)A sniper does his job, just like a tank driver or the guy who slops the food.
Snipers often double as recon agents and bring back intel that saves other soldiers. Snipers are some of the toughest, best trained people you will ever meet. Snipers also work in defense positions providing cover for other troops to move. Snipers also guard targets. The Secret Service hires snipers to guard our President. Capitol Police have a highly skilled sniper division.
Snipers often work alone or with a scout deep behind enemy territory with no backup. Snipers die fighting for us.
Please stop shitting on the troops unless you're going to sign up and put your ass on the line.
(Oh yes, I used to work and train with snipers and have known a few)
obamanut2012
(26,079 posts)coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)body count and went about (in print) puffing his chest at his kill ratio.
Come on, it's not 'shitting on the troops' to call out this kind of assholery. And it's not 'hating on our soldiers' to condemn such bullshit.
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)It sounds to much like a generalization of Military Snipers.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)about Kyle, so I don't think it was incumbent upon the OP to detail it.
More to the point, the person claiming the OP was 'shitting on soliders' is engaging the same old tired stab-in-the-back bullshit that the right wing and its acolytes have been using ever since Vietnam (and, really, ever since the 'Who lost China?' seeds of McCarthyism.) It's really disgusting to see it rearing its tired, decrepit head on a so-called progressive board.
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)It's another thing entirely to BRAG about it, especially when it involves killing in such a deliberate way.
It's the self-aggrandizement and puffery that bothers me about this guy. Not the fact that he did his job well.
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)his death, but when I read about his recent pursuits helping disabled soldiers get back into society, I was ok with him.
sarisataka
(18,656 posts)fairly normal guys. i have known both police and military. They like discussing ammo choices, weather conditions- all the technical stuff. Those who never have had to fire on a person sincerely hope to never have to do it.
Those who have shot, and are willing to talk, uniformly mention two things. One is, as you mentioned, by killing one they are saving many; it is the lesser of two evils. The second is mentioned by another poster. Looking through the scope helps to dehumanize the target. It makes the shooting more of an exercise in mechanics than taking a life.
One man I met before his retirement had been a sniper in Viet Nam. He talked a lot about the necessity of killing in war, it is not something to enjoy and so on. One thing I always remember, when he spoke of hand to hand combat with VC during Tet- "Killing at a distance is really easy. Taking the life of someone up close, where you see his eyes... that is a real mother fucker." We wrapped up soon after that.
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)The type that will hold you tight and cry with you when the vet comes and tells you they did all they could.
The type that has gone without smokes to afford a cheep little covenant store necklace for Valentines day.
The type that has gave his day's worth of food to a old homeless woman.
The type that no animal and no kid can resist coming up to.
The type that has my back no mater what.
The type that wakes up in the middle of the night drenched in a cold sweet remembering doing his service to this country.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)If your experience is a recent one, and you are still in contact with him, tell him the haters can't help themselves.
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Thank him for me.
Oops, this should be under your post 39. My bad.
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)nenagh
(1,925 posts)And thank your husband...children and dogs know the real person, don't they..
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)Just have to look over to get inspired. And I will pass along the thank you.
nenagh
(1,925 posts)ps.. Highly recommended to reduce stress.. 'Misty's Pups Webcam'..the puppies are being raised in the Warrior Canine Connection program.. and will be trained as therapy dogs for Wounded Warriors... but at the moment they are 5 weeks old and a litterbox challenged group.... .
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)And I will check that out!
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)bluestate10
(10,942 posts)know the answers that will be accepted unchallenged.
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)obamanut2012
(26,079 posts)If you are insistent on using that logic.
obamanut2012
(26,079 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)The sniper is just doing what he's told.
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)what kind of person can they become after they return to civilian life.
Having been in the service (although luckily never having been deployed), I can only tell you what went through my mind as I was shooting at those silhouette targets and imagining if they were real people. It is nothing as you describe, and I can assure you that I have a deep respect for life. I don't even hunt.
I can tell you that to become a sniper, one must have extreme patience - which can be very useful in the civilian workplace. Also, they must be able to do hundreds of calculations in their heads; taking into account distance, multiple wind speeds, rate of descent of the bullet, etc. Also, if they miss on the first shot (as is fairly common) they must be able to make adjustments immediately. These are also traits that can be very useful in the workplace.
The mindset of "once a killer always a killer" is very counter-productive. People can - and constantly do - change.
The government funded by taxpayers honed these people's skills and taught them how to become efficient killers. Once they return to civilian life, shouldn't that same government undo what they did, and teach them how to become constructive members of society? Including understanding what these people have been through and treating them for mental health issues that the government may have inadvertently inflicted on them by exposing them to the horrors of war?
I will not deny that there are some who glorify killing. But they are the minority. And they do not represent the tenets of our military.
If we are to say that we care about people, then we should care about ALL people - even those we have taught to kill in order to save the lives of others.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Many of the "best" military snipers came from rural backgrounds where they learnt to shoot from a very early age and had to engage in subsistence hunting to help feed their families, learning to make every shot count.
As far as psychology goes? Snipers are apparently much less likely to dehumanise the enemy. This, for instance:
Part of the reason for this may be that snipers can see their targets with great clarity and sometimes must observe them for hours or even days.
"It's killing that is very distant but also very personal," says anthropologist Neta Bar. "I would even say intimate."
(snip)
What she found was that while many Israeli soldiers would refer to Palestinian militants as "terrorists", snipers generally referred to them as human beings.
"The Hebrew word for human being is Son of Adam and this was the word they used by far more than any other when they talked about the people that they killed," she says.
Snipers almost never referred to the men they killed as targets, or used animal or machine metaphors. Some interviewees even said that their victims were legitimate warriors.
"Here is someone whose friends love him and I am sure he is a good person because he does this out of ideology," said one sniper who watched through his scope as a family mourned the man he had just shot. "But we from our side have prevented the killing of innocents, so we are not sorry about it."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16544490
And snipers are apparently much less likely than other soldiers to suffer PTSD.
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)505 kills in 100 days.
When asked if he regretted killing so many people, he said, "I only did my duty, and what I was told to do, as well as I could."
Peregrine
(992 posts)an enemy sniper.
Mario Cuomo once said that the greatest sacrifice by a soldier was not giving his/her life for this country, but it was the killing of another person. This he said, changes a person for the rest of his/her life.
With your comments you denigrate thousands of people who have returned from war and tried to live an average life. After more than 40 years, my brother still has bad times as a result of Vietnam. And he was in signal intelligence, only shooting to protect his installation from attack.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)Over a distance, a target in the rifle scope appears to move around almost randomly because of vibrations transmitted to the rifle by the shooter. One must be relaxed and in control of his breathing to minimize that.
As far as the moral implications, history suggests that it is pretty easy for a person to get used to killing.
shcrane71
(1,721 posts)My parents and grandparents tried to hide the newspaper clippings of my father's tour of service in Vietnam from his children. My grandmother forbade us from rummaging through the contents of a hope chest where she kept the clippings. Being onery children, we looked. Once we realized that Dad had killed so many people, we started to cry.
My father advocates for the total ban of all guns in America. He's a true patriot. I'm proud of him. He has the utmost respect for life. This original post lacks empathy for young people who are put or find themselves in war zones.
Oakenshield
(614 posts)You're essentially asking what does it takes for a person to kill another human being. Honestly the answer is more or less "killer instinct", and it's an instinct we all have to some extent. On top of a great control of this instinct I imagine snipers are also very patient and methodical.
bmbmd
(3,088 posts)and I thank him for his service. I mourn his loss.
treestar
(82,383 posts)But until we can get rid of it, there's no point in aiming at the people having to carry it out.
Bosso 63
(992 posts)XemaSab
(60,212 posts)In Sarajevo. During the war.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)be done I guess. But writing a book and be proud you killed others just doesn't seem right to me. I don't know why in the heck he would take a soldier who had PTSD to a gun range.
AzSweet
(102 posts)uninformed, uncompassionate, idiotic posts I've ever seen here...My husband was a sniper in Viet Nam...a self described "big dumb kid from California"....do you think he never struggled with what the government trained him to do in war? Do you think it didnt take him years to reconcile his soul? I dont think we should have been there, and am among those that think war is a huge racket....but dont disrespect those that did as they were trained, and who thought they were there protecting US...Flag me if you want...but fuck you!