Buzz Aldrin appears in an episode of the TV show Ancient Aliens

[MinervaX]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by REP (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Seriously? Didn't this guy famously punch somebody in the face for questioning if he actually set foot on the Moon? To appear on this schlocky show. Why do people destroy their credibility like this?

[hlthe2b]

1. I seem to recall that he came out to claim he saw a UFO while in space... Anyone remember that?

I'm agnostic on all of this, so don't kill the messenger, but I am simply saying that I think he is sincere. Whether he is poorly served to appear on this show, is another matter.

Apparent Necessary Disclaimer: I in no way am pushing any Crazy Conspiracy Theory, Crazy alien or any other premise. If the admins do not wish for this issue to be even broached or even the name of a famous astronaut, (who apparently holds some of these beliefs) to be discussed then feel free to delete my post. I am not pushing crazy talk and hope that that can be readily recognized, no matter how determined some may be to avoid any semblance of this kind of discussion.

[leftyohiolib]

7. i think its sad that that discaimer is apparently neccessary

[obamanut2012]

38. John Glenn has said that, too

He meant it as a "true" UFO, not necessarily anything like ET. He just didn't know what they were. NASA said, I believe, it was water leakage from his capsule.

[obamanut2012]

40. John Glenn and the "fireflies"

"The spacecraft moved across Australia and across the Pacific to Canton Island. Glenn experienced a short 45 minute night and prepared the periscope for viewing his first sunrise from orbit. As the sun rose over the island, he saw thousands of "little specks, brilliant specks, floating around outside the capsule"; he momentarily felt that the spacecraft was tumbling or that he was looking into a star field. A quick hard look out of the spacecraft window corrected the illusion and Glenn was sure that the "fireflies", as he called them, were streaming past his spacecraft from ahead. They seemed to flow by slowly but did not seem to be coming from any part of the spacecraft, and they disappeared as Friendship 7 moved into brighter sunlight. It was later determined that they were probably small ice crystals venting from onboard spacecraft systems.

I am in a big mass of some very small particles, they're brilliantly lit up like they're luminescent. I never saw anything like it. They round a little: they're coming by the capsule and they look like little stars. A whole shower of them coming by. They swirl around the capsule and go in front of the window and they're all brilliantly lighted.John Glenn started banging the capsule wall and watched the "fireflies" come off, just as Alan Shepard did."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury-Atlas_6

[MinervaX]

60. If you read the Friendship 7 Air to Ground transcripts

NASA goes to great links to try to explain the "fireflies"

Appendix D - "Luminous Particles"

http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/history/mission_trans/MA06_TEC.PDF

[hlthe2b]

41. Truly sad that this anecdote from both, is taken as implying more...

UFO is a perfectly acceptable term for that which is out of the ordinary in the viewer's sense. It does not mean there is not a perfectly acceptable explanation.

I cringe that the OP is being so derisive of Aldrin or any other of our storied astronauts.

[obamanut2012]

54. I said the opposite of that

I said that Glenn meant UFO in the actual sense, something unknown, and also posted the "fireflies" story.

[hlthe2b]

65. I actually think we are saying the same thing...

That they were using the term in the literal sense with no connotations whatsoever. I'm bemoaning those who read more into what they said--merely that they saw a (then) unidentifiable object.

[Ian David]

2. He must be under the influence of ancient aliens. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

3. Aldrin is an American hero, and like the rest of us he can say and do what he wishes

His credibility is not so thin as to get harmed from such a thing. Get real.

[MinervaX]

4. Actually we are governed by laws

So, he can't say and do as he pleases, despite the hero status you have conferred on him.

[hlthe2b]

6. So you have given up on any semblance of a First Amendment?

as codified in law (i.e., the Bill of Rights of the US Constitution)?

[MinervaX]

13. It doesn't apply

There is the concept of "free speech" and then there is "free speech" as determined by the U.S. Constitution. The 1st Amendment codifies the US Governments position of not denying it's citizens the right to express themselves. I'm not the US Government.

[hlthe2b]

16. So you are saying Aldrin does not have freedom of speech...

How very special, you seem to be.

A little clue... YOU don't get to determine Aldrin's speech--any more than the government.

[MinervaX]

20. No, but I can certainly critique it and call him out

Which I have done.

[hlthe2b]

26. Yet YOU said that his first amendment did not apply. Can you be consistent?

Of course you can criticize, but apparently can not defend your assertion that he does not have freedom of speech. Umm, ok.

Perhaps you skipped civics class in school?

[MinervaX]

27. Seriously, that's all you got?

I have no idea what you are talking about, it's clear that you can not express yourself properly.

[hlthe2b]

30. ahh projection...

the last bastion of defense when you make a post you can't defend.

My dear MinervaX, it is YOU who can not express what it is that you mean. But, then when you make an outrageous assertion that the 1st Amendment Freedom of Speech protections do not apply to Buzz Aldrin (or anyone else), I honestly don't know how you could defend it.

Have a nice day.

[MinervaX]

32. I never said that.

But go ahead and make shit up.

[hlthe2b]

44. Right.. your quotes speak for themselves.

"...Actually we are governed by laws. So, he can't say and do as he pleases, despite the hero status you have conferred on him."

"It (sic 1st Amendment) doesn't apply

There is the concept of "free speech" and then there is "free speech" as determined by the U.S. Constitution. The 1st Amendment codifies the US Governments position of not denying it's citizens the right to express themselves. I'm not the US Government. "


Your words speak for themselves. You could take the time to clarify, rather than deny saying it. Just a suggestion.

[MinervaX]

49. I stand by it.

He can't go into a crowded theater and yell Fire! He physically can, that would not be speech protected by the 1st Amendment. Get real.

[hlthe2b]

63. See.. you can try and clarify your points..

I thought you were likely capable of clarifying and am only sad you couldn't do so in the first place. I hope you see the advantage of doing so over getting defensive and tossing out rude cursing accusations. The latter does nothing to help you make your point, but certainly does little for your own credibility.

[MinervaX]

74. LOL you go right ahead and believe what you want to believe

[Drale]

5. Why do people automaticly dismiss the ancient aliens theory?

Why is it so implausible? I could understand why religious freaks would, but I though DU'ers were more open minded than that.

[AzDar]

10. Right? Being(s) in the sky whom we cannot see, yet are responsible for our creation..

and to some degree control our destiny. Hmmm...where have I heard that sort of thing before?

[hlthe2b]

11. I think that those who might not dismiss out of hand are reticent to discuss...

because Skinner has made it clear he considers this "Crazy Talk" and has recently banned some long term DUers for broaching other issues that he has designated as TOS violations. It seems pretty clear that there is zero tolerance for those subjects the admins believe to be "crazy talk," the problem being that many of us are not quite clear exactly which subjects those might be. Requests for a clarification in Meta Discussion have been ignored or the questioner told essentially that it should be "obvious.".

[JHB]

12. Usually because the claims tend to be superficial...

...and the "evidence" isn't all that mysterious to people who have studied those cultures closely.

Because the answer to "how could the ancients have..." is usually hard work and ingenuity, not aliens.

[eShirl]

14. It's just as credible as Creationism.

[MattBaggins]

61. As in not at all?

That's kind of harsh since aliens are at least a little bit credible.

[jberryhill]

43. The "ancient aliens theory" of what?

That ancient non-Europeans were too stupid to do anything clever on their own?

Ancient people were every bit as intelligent as we are. They had lots of time on their hands when agriculture took off, and few materials to work with. Accordingly, they developed very clever ways of doing things with the materials on hand.

[The Straight Story]

51. No one in history can have seen anything we haven't......

Let's say for example millions of years ago a voyager style probe launched from another system came to earth and others saw it (and only one was sent, later destroyed by lava) - it is not possible it could have have happened because we did not see it.

Like coelacanths - folks used to say they had caught them, we said 'no way, they are extinct because we have not seen them' and then, once we saw one they were no longer extinct anymore.

Only once we discover something is it real, everyone is delusional or a liar and their claims are not worth looking into.

[JHB]

8. Appears saying what, exactly?

Is he wholeheartedly endorsing something? Is he just saying it's maybe sorta possible ya never know?

Context, please.

[MinervaX]

18. It was real vague

speculating about life in the universe or something.

[onenote]

22. How do you know what he said? Did you watch the show?

I just assumed that since you declared it to be such a schlocky show that you didn't watch it.

[MinervaX]

24. He says:

"We aliens, who happened to go down the ladder on July 20, 1969... We aliens,we're certainly part of a magnificent race."

[onenote]

29. That's it? One line?

I don't watch the show, but this thread intrigued me so I searched around and found a transcript of the episode. That's the only line attributed to Aldrin. My guess is that its from some interview that may not even have been done for this particular show and in any event is not presented with any context. Its not even clear that Aldrin would personally have any control over the use of the clip if it was filmed and owned by someone else.

[jberryhill]

31. A lot of the program is done that way

They find reputable people, ask them speculative questions, and then use clips from those interviews embedded in a context of woo.

[MinervaX]

36. Clearly Aldrin would have known it was woo

The fucking show is called Ancient fucking Aliens.

[jberryhill]

39. They don't tell the interviewees the name of the show

They got Derek Pitts, the chief astronomer of the Franklin Institute as well.

They simply say they are producing a documentary, and that's that.

[JHB]

53. Exactly.

Creationists pull this sort of thing too.

[MinervaX]

56. Do you have a source to back up your claim?

I think that may likely be part of it, but I'd like to see a source. Aldrin does say "aliens" on a show called "Ancient Aliens", I'd like to know how much of that was prompted by a producer.

[Ecumenist]

42. We, being human beings from Earth, WERE ALIENS onthe MOON! that's what he meant!

[MinervaX]

47. Alien to what?

A bunch of rocks?

[Ecumenist]

50. Did human beings walk on the moon in the regular? Really??!! You're trying to be obtuse.

You know what I mean. Unless you walked on the moon prior to the late 60's IT WAS ALIEN TO HUMAN BEINGS FROM EARTH!!

[MinervaX]

52. The enivornment was certainly different.

But to call humans "aliens" in regards to the lunar environment, that is simply a very poor description, and in the context of this show, it's clear that Aldrin's intention was obfuscation.

[JHB]

57. or poetic license.

[jberryhill]

58. "in the context of this show"

The "context of this show" is established in the video editing room, where juicy bits of interviews obtained on the pretense of "doing a documentary for the History Channel" are cut and pasted to produce that context.

Buzz Aldrin did nothing "in the context of this show". He was approached for an interview, and you do not have access to the questions he was asked and the full responses he provided.

[Ecumenist]

62. Are we NATIVE TO THE MOON, Minverax?

There was no obfuscation in his statement. It was fact. WE ARE NOT NATIVE TO THE LUNAR SURFACE!

[limpyhobbler]

9. ok .....ancient aliens could actually be real

not saying it's true, just that it could be real.

[Fawke Em]

79. I'm thinking the same thing.

None of us walking now lived back then, so how would we know?

I like the show, actually, and find it interesting to ponder such ideas. Not saying I necessarily believe it, but the points made on the show are interesting and entertaining.

I mean, once upon a time, mankind flying was "crazy talk."

[Iggo]

15. What did he say?

[onenote]

17. I've had the privilege of meeting with, talking to, and scuba diving with Buzz

and while I don't agree with everything he says or does, I know two things for certain:
First, I don't even pretend to be able to stand in the shoes of a person who has accomplished the things Buzz Aldrin has accomplished in his life.

Second, he doesn't give a rat's ass what you or anyone else thinks about his "credibility."

[MinervaX]

19. Ya know?

He's just a human. Unless the ancient astronaut theory which I guess he promotes might be true.


Oh, and touch you! You've swam with an astronaut.

[onenote]

21. And I've replied to you, So I guess the good and bad in life do balance out.

[MinervaX]

25. You chose to reply

I didn't make you. You must have felt it was worthy of your time to reply otherwise I guess you wouldn't have.

[Matariki]

23. He was on Space Ghost

he gets credibility points for that.

[Scurrilous]

46. And 30 Rock.

More credibility points.

[onenote]

71. Plus, Buzz Lightyear is named for him

Lots of credibility points since, as the producers of that film have indicated, they picked "Buzz" for the character's name because it was the coolest astronaut name ever.

[jberryhill]

28. They get a lot of quotes from reputable people

Then they chop them up and mix them into the program.

It's not clear to me that they even tell the interviewees what the program is about, and they don't provide the questions which such persons are answering.

That show is a hoot.

[MinervaX]

33. That might be the case

But he calls the human race "we aliens".

[jberryhill]

34. Yes, we are aliens w/r/t the moon

So?

[MinervaX]

35. That's weak.

I guess people are also aliens to their cats as well.

[jberryhill]

37. No

Cats and humans are mammals which evolved on this planet.

[onenote]

45. what is weak about it?

If some extraterrestrial being arrived on earth (and I'm not suggesting any such thing could happen) they would be considered an "alien." So why is it strange to reference to the presence of humans on the moon as an "alien" presence?

[MinervaX]

48. Because there is nothing there to make that determination

[JHB]

59. It's perspective. Off Earth, we are the "aliens"

[hlthe2b]

67. Of course ...

A minority here seem incapable of understanding the academic side of the discussion. We are indigenous to earth. Off of our planet, we are alien life to that planet.

[MinervaX]

75. You are trying to give human qualities to a planetoid.

[Tikki]

55. I would err on the side of Aldrin and Glenn....that way with...

first contact they will be like prophets.


Tikki

[hlthe2b]

64. They have certainly EARNED their credibility despite assertions to the contrary.

[librechik]

66. Don't "like" UFOS? Censor and ridicule the witnesses. Are you in the CIA? That's their plan.

I guess I have to add Aldrin to the long list of folks I'm supposed to hate as a Dem, such as Greenwald, Hamsher and Taibbi. Let's make the tent smaller and smaller so only the one hive mind fits in there, like the Repubs. That's what DU is for, right? to villify the unpopular?

Ancient Aliens is in general highly inaccurate and silly. But it is one of the very few forums for a certain type of information. Aldrin has been demonized due to his own eyewitness experiences. He was willing to come forward and be transparent. I thought that was a Dem ideal. Instead he gets dissed. Is that really the way to discover the truth in a controversial subject?

I await your programmed scoffing, ignored.

[jberryhill]

68. Who has "demonized" Buzz Aldrin?

[hlthe2b]

70. "demonized?" no... Derided? ..the OP, for one.

[hlthe2b]

69. I think his comments have been misconstrued, misinterpreted, misquoted, and in general...

used to deride a man who has earned the right to speak out. Some seems to be from those who are incapable of understanding an academic discussion of life and potential life, whether single celled organisms, bacteria, or some form slightly more complex-- on this planet and elsewhere. Just the term UFO is now construed to mean "little green men" and "otherworldly" rather than merely something unidentifiable at the present time, but not necessarily without an eventual logical explanation.

Aldrin, Glenn, and their colleagues have earned respect and right to speak without our drawing foregone (and likely highly erroneous assumption-based) conclusions.

[MinervaX]

76. The forum for this "academic" discussion

is a television show that claims that extraterrestrials seeded the planet Earth with their genetic material and that modern humans are the result. Buzz Aldrin calls humans "aliens" in this show. He lends his name to the program and promotes the idea. He has lost credibility as far as this is concerned. A former NASA official should know better.

[kemah]

73. Tea Party programming

Swamp People, Operation Repo. Moonshiners, Lizard Lick Towing, Ancient Aliens, Ice Road Truckers, Pawn Shop Detroit watching bla people pawn their stolen stuff, Cable Guy does America, the Trailer Park Boys, House wives of Wagon Wheel Trailer Park, How I almost got away, Top Guns, the biggest loser, Fox news, right wing radio.

All these programs and much more are aimed at the tea party crowd

[MinervaX]

77. Buzz Aldrin is a Republican

Hopefully this will start a dog pile on him in this thread.

[librechik]

78. John Glenn is a Democrat, and has reported UFOs. I think I just cancelled your dogpile.

[MinervaX]

80. That is simply not correct

"Aldrin is an active supporter of the Republican Party, headlining fundraisers for GOP members of Congress"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzz_Aldrin#cite_note-28

"The Combat Veterans For Congress Committee is dedicated to
supporting the election of fiscally conservative Combat Veterans
to Congress. We seek Combat Veterans For Congress who
believe in limited government, will rein in the out of control
spending of Congress, are committed to preserving and
defending the US Constitution, and will support the
independence and freedom of the individual as outlined in the
Bill of Rights. We support Combat Veterans For Congress who
are dedicated to promoting The Free Enterprise System that
created the greatest economic engine in the history of mankind,
who will provide for a strong national defense, and who will
endorse the teaching of US history and the Founding Fathers'
core values in educational institutions."

http://combatveteransforcongress.org/sites/default/files/2-26-10-invite.pdf

[kemah]

72. 400 years from now some one will find a Transfomers DVD movie and claim proof aliens existed

All those drawings, sketches are just artists having a creative artistic moment. You can interpret them any way you want.
Graffiti on caves doesn't proof their were aliens. It just proofs that graffiti is on the walls.

[REP]

81. Feel free to discuss Von Daniken's theories in Creative Speculation

This is off-topic for GD. Thank you.