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Mon Dec 24, 2012, 03:28 PM

Has it occurred to you that many Europeans are absolutely frightened at the thought of a holiday

in the land of 300 million weapons? I have meet several people here in Austria and from Germany and have relatives in Spain who want nothing to do with visiting the States. Can't blame 'em. My children have decided that no trip to America is worth the danger. My daughter was considering an Au pair position, but that is now out of the question. The image of America as a blood thirsty, lumbering, naive giant is running rampant.

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Reply Has it occurred to you that many Europeans are absolutely frightened at the thought of a holiday (Original post)
wake.up.america Dec 2012 OP
DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #1
wake.up.america Dec 2012 #2
pampango Dec 2012 #21
DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #23
former9thward Dec 2012 #3
crazyjoe Dec 2012 #9
wickerwoman Dec 2012 #10
former9thward Dec 2012 #19
wickerwoman Dec 2012 #20
former9thward Dec 2012 #22
wickerwoman Dec 2012 #31
Zax2me Dec 2012 #47
Lifelong Protester Dec 2012 #4
crazyjoe Dec 2012 #12
CBHagman Dec 2012 #28
CTyankee Dec 2012 #5
Jenoch Dec 2012 #6
tammywammy Dec 2012 #7
laundry_queen Dec 2012 #8
crazyjoe Dec 2012 #11
abelenkpe Dec 2012 #32
Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #41
crazyjoe Dec 2012 #45
Nye Bevan Dec 2012 #13
moondust Dec 2012 #14
hfojvt Dec 2012 #16
hfojvt Dec 2012 #15
Raine Dec 2012 #17
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #30
Major Nikon Dec 2012 #18
wake.up.america Dec 2012 #24
elleng Dec 2012 #27
cherokeeprogressive Dec 2012 #25
HipChick Dec 2012 #26
Berserker Dec 2012 #38
riverbendviewgal Dec 2012 #29
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #33
Nye Bevan Dec 2012 #35
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #40
Nye Bevan Dec 2012 #34
Berserker Dec 2012 #36
Mariana Dec 2012 #37
riverbendviewgal Dec 2012 #39
HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #42
KittyWampus Dec 2012 #43
OneTenthofOnePercent Dec 2012 #44
Zax2me Dec 2012 #46
wake.up.america Dec 2012 #48

Response to wake.up.america (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 03:31 PM

1. some truth,but

on the other hand, Europe is a place where Terrorist bombings are considered normal, everywhere has reasons to avoid it.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 03:36 PM

2. Indiscriminate killings are more prevalent in America.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 08:06 PM

21. "Europe is a place where Terrorist bombings are considered normal". Any stats, quotes,

editorials, articles, etc. to back that up?

I've never seen evidence that Europeans accept indiscriminate killings as "normal".

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Response to pampango (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 08:33 PM

23. here ya go

http://www.businessinsider.com/terrorism-common-in-europe-2012-12

sample: "We hear so much about violence of all sorts in the US and so much about individual terror incidents. But in Europe there tens to be less reporting unless there is a major incident."

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/12/04
sample: "Western Europe experiences many more terrorist incidents than the U.S. having also suffered 19 times more fatalities than the U.S."

http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/terrorism-europe-t91323.html
sample:
In 2010, 249 terrorist attacks were reported. The majority of these attacks were in France (84) and Spain (90). Islamist terrorists carried out three attacks on EU territory. Separatist groups, on the other hand, were responsible for 160 attacks, while left-wing and anarchist groups were responsible for 45 attacks. One single-issue attack was reported from Greece.

Source: Europol - EU Terrorism Situation and Trend Report 2011.
https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/publications/te-sat2011_0.pdf


In 2009, 294 terrorist attacks. Islamist terrorists (1) Separatist groups (237) Left-wing (40) Right-wing (4) Single and not specified (12)

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Response to wake.up.america (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 03:42 PM

3. Not according to the Immigration Service.

Visitors this year are up from countries in Europe doing well and down from countries doing poorly. UK 1.7 million visitors thru June down 0.4% from last year, Germany 900,000 up 7.8%, France 700,000 up 4.4%, Spain 270,000 down 6.9%, Sweden 225,000 up 2.3%, Switzerland 210,000 up 7.3% and and Italy 350,000 down 1.4%.

http://tinet.ita.doc.gov/view/m-2012-I-001/index.html

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Response to former9thward (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:19 PM

9. Don't confuse the poster with facts while their attempting to be dramatic.

 

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Response to former9thward (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:24 PM

10. Those statistics don't reflect reaction to a week old shooting incident.

In New Zealand, the news coverage was wall-to-wall Dylan Hockley the little boy from the UK whose parents brought him to the US "for a better life" six months before the shooting.

Since then I have heard several people comment, without prompting, on how dangerous the US is and that it's not a good environment to bring kids up in.

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Response to wickerwoman (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 06:48 PM

19. I like facts not anecdotes.

If a poster is going to say people are not coming to the U.S. then I would like to see some actual facts instead of stories. Especially when the evidence is the opposite. Yes the Sandy Hook shooting is a week or so old but we have been told many times in posts that mass killings take place every two weeks.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 06:58 PM

20. It's too early for the facts you've presented to be relevant.

Sandy Hook was clearly the straw that broke the camel's back for many policy makers as well as everyday Americans (and for people overseas). It is a qualitatively different event in terms of its emotional impact on the debate. In 36 years, I have never seen this kind of upswell of support for gun control in the US. But it is too early to pull out statistics to show the impact of the event itself, let alone policies in response to it.

Maybe in six months, you will have your facts. Until then, there's no point in trying to shut down the discussion of possible impacts of this event on tourism or immigration as you do not hold facts which are any more relevant or accurate than anyone else's.

On edit: The immigration statistics are also irrelevant because they only tell you how many people are seeking to come to the US relative to other years. They don't tell you how many people would consider coming to the US but don't both because of crazy gun laws (or the death penalty, or the prison-industrial complex, or underfunding of schools, health care, infrastructure, etc.)

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Response to wickerwoman (Reply #20)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 08:13 PM

22. So then nothing that is presented will ever be "relevant" in your eyes.

Because if you don't like the facts you will say there are other factors. You can say that about anything. At least I presented facts. The posters I replied to presented absolutely nothing but gossip.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #22)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:49 PM

31. I can say that about anything that is irrelevant.

Tourism statistics are compiled once a year at best. They do not reflect a week old event. Comparing next year's tourism statistics to this year's will reflect the event and will therefore be relevant.
The number of people seeking to come to America reflects the number of people seeking to come to America. It does not reflect the number of people not seeking to come to America or why they are not seeking to come to America.
That's logic, not opinion or a rhetorical trick.
For someone who respects "facts" so much, you seem not to understand very well how to apply them to situations.
The Earth is an oblate spheroid. That's a fact. It's just not a relevant fact to a discussion of the impact Sandy Hook will have on tourism to the US so sadly I don't get points for "presenting facts". I get points for discussing the topic at hand- how many people who might otherwise travel to the US have been/will be put off by the recent gun violence? I don't know and neither do you. It's an interesting question. Anecdotally, it seems like something that is having an impact. Let's wait and see until the facts are in instead of posting irrelevant information and implying that gun violence has had no impact in order to shut the discussion down.

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Response to wickerwoman (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 05:00 AM

47. That in another few weeks Europeans won't even remember.

 

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Response to wake.up.america (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 04:54 PM

4. Once, in a London restaurant

about 15 years ago, our waiters were two young men recently arrived from Bosnia. Let's say, the left there in a hurry, escaping a war zone.
We told them we were from the States, near Chicago. They immediately pantomimed machine gun actions and exclaimed how they wondered how we could live here.
Now granted, through old gangster films, Chi-town may have a rep, but these guys from a war-torn area of the world were pitying US for living HERE, where gun violence is 'glamorized' in movies.

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Response to Lifelong Protester (Reply #4)


Response to Lifelong Protester (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:42 PM

28. That's precisely how a Northern Irish teenager reacted in Roger Rosenblatt's...

...Children of War series back in the 1980s, written when the Troubles seemed never-ending.

http://books.google.com/books?id=M54EAQAAIAAJ&q=inauthor:%22Roger+Rosenblatt%22&dq=inauthor:%22Roger+Rosenblatt%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eCDZUKfrL4Oa0QG9zIGIBQ&ved=0CGIQ6AEwCA

On finding the reporter was from New York, she said, "Oh, I wouldn't go there. Murders everywhere."

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Response to wake.up.america (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:16 PM

5. Hey, that's what makes us "exceptional."

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Response to wake.up.america (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:16 PM

6. Their fears are unfounded.

Statistically, they are much more likely to be injured or die from a fall in their own bathtub.

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Response to wake.up.america (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:18 PM

7. I work with Germans and Italians...so no.

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Response to wake.up.america (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:19 PM

8. I must say

it factors into my decision on where to vacation. Not that I have money at the moment, but for us Canadians, US shopping trips are quite common. I used to go on them a lot. Now...not so much. Last time I went to the US with a friend, we were sitting in a mall, and as we were watching people go by, she asks me, "I wonder which ones are carrying a gun?" Yeesh, I hadn't thought of it. We both breathed a sigh of relief when we crossed back over the border. It didn't dominate our whole trip, but it was in the back of our minds the entire time and we hardly realized how bad it was until we crossed back over.

Many older Canadians become snowbirds (Canada in the summer, US in the winter). My great-Uncle and aunt used to spend their winters in Arizona (too old now). My parents were thinking about buying a winter home there. Now they are reconsidering, solely because of the whole gun issue. My parents grew up near the US border and think most Americans are scary - at least the ones they used to play baseball with, lol.

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Response to wake.up.america (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:30 PM

11. let's see, about 13,000 gun deaths last year, 315.000.000 people,

 

holy crap, your right. Set foot in the US, you have a %0.00004 chance you will be murdered by a gun.
Has it occurred to you that your post is ridiculous?

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Response to crazyjoe (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:49 PM

32. This

Article says your statistics are total bullshit. Who to believe crazy Joe or bloomberg?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-19/american-gun-deaths-to-exceed-traffic-fatalities-by-2015.html

200 people a day go to the emergency room with a gun shor wound in the country. But you wonder why others view us as gun nuts?

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Response to abelenkpe (Reply #32)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:29 PM

41. Gun-related homicide statistics are available from the DoJ.

The most recent year available (2010) had 8,775. The homicide rate - for all methods, not just firearms - was 4.8 /100,000, the lowest rate since 1963 (but still awfully high). Obviously, how much that figure applies to one's actual probability of becoming a victim depends to an extremely significant degree on where in the US one happens to be.

The Bloomberg stats include suicides by firearm, which have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the risk assessment of someone from Europe considering a visit to the US.

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Response to abelenkpe (Reply #32)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 12:25 AM

45. fine, let's use your numbers. according to your article, from the fortune tellers

 

at bloomberg....
"Shooting deaths in 2015 will probably rise to almost 33,000"

excuse me for using actual factual data, but anyway, 33.000 / 315,000,000 = % 0.0001050955414.
So I guess the folks from Europe who are "frightened" to vacation in the US due to all the guns, would have more of a chance to be attacked by a great white shark, and struck by lightning in the same day.
I guess I'm just getting tired of all the made up bullshit stories I have been reading on DU since the severely disturbed asshole in Connecticut decided to kill all those innocent children.

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Response to wake.up.america (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:38 PM

13. I was unable to find any examples of an au pair being murdered in the US.

Worrying about that happening is like worrying about her plane crashing, or about an earthquake taking place in the city she is staying in.

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Response to wake.up.america (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:50 PM

14. I knew a real nice guy in Germany

who sincerely asked me once if everybody in America carries a gun.

That was approximately 37 years ago.

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Response to moondust (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:54 PM

16. and supposedly everybody in Switzerland DOES

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

and they know how to use them too.

Do NOT mess with the Swiss.

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Response to wake.up.america (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:52 PM

15. it is dangerous, but often also mostly harmless

after all, a wimp like myself has been bopping around America, often by myself on a bicycle, for most of 50 years now.

On the other hand, my mom was sorta freaked out about me visiting Europe. Like it was a barbaric country or something.

I did get accosted by some drunk old dude in Strasbourg, but I just "walked away passively" just like I would have in America.

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Response to wake.up.america (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 06:43 PM

17. You have to be cautious but shouldn't let fear guide your life. nt

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Response to Raine (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:48 PM

30. More cautious now than in the past IMO. I drive a classic car and I have to admit sometimes it

bothers me about the potential of getting my car jacked.

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Response to wake.up.america (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 06:46 PM

18. It just means Americans haven't cornered the market on irrational fear

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Response to wake.up.america (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:24 PM

24. Interesting comments.

I will tell my friends and acquaintances that their fears are totally unfounded.

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Response to wake.up.america (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:34 PM

27. Really!

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Response to wake.up.america (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:29 PM

25. Nnnnnope. Hasn't occured to me.

Talk about irrational fear...

If their "image of America" is one of a "blood thirsty, lumbering, naive giant" that runs rampant, maybe they should never ever again ask for America's assistance in their time of need.

I'm betting that's not going to happen though.

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Response to wake.up.america (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:32 PM

26. My family have refused to visit for years..

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Response to HipChick (Reply #26)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:03 PM

38. Hey just maybe

 

We have something here. Will it stop the illegal immigration?

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Response to wake.up.america (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:45 PM

29. in canada too

I know 4 couples are not going to Snowbird this winter to the USA. Nope. Just too scary.

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Response to riverbendviewgal (Reply #29)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:52 PM

33. I drive cross country, sometimes, and I have to admit it unnerves me occasionally when getting off

of the main interstates into rural areas. I grew up in a semi-rural area, but now I find some of the people pretty strange.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #33)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:55 PM

35. Trust me. You're safer getting off in central Kansas or Nebraska

than in South Central LA or Harlem.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #35)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:18 PM

40. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh, definitely!!! Yep!!!!!! n/t

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Response to riverbendviewgal (Reply #29)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:53 PM

34. Because of the epidemic of ski slope shootings? (nt)

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #34)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:59 PM

36. Well

 

I laughed out loud at that. Thanks. Good Humor.

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Response to wake.up.america (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:00 PM

37. My husband, my daughter and I visited London

a few weeks after the 7/7 bombings. Most of my family and acquaintances were surprised that we did not cancel the trip, but they were utterly shocked that we planned to use public transportation to get around. "OMG, don't do that! WTF is wrong with you? Haven't you been watching the news?" they exclaimed. They were sure we were going to be blown up while riding the subway.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #37)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:08 PM

39. i just came back from london

Visiting my son. The only guns I saw were the ones The police had in Windsor castle. The queen was there at the time. I traveled the tube and buses and walked.the city without any fear.

Same in Ireland and Scotland. Great places to visit. Very safe.

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Response to wake.up.america (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 12:06 AM

42. They're welcome to go to N Africa, S America, Central Asia, etc.

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Response to wake.up.america (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 12:10 AM

43. We own a place that puts up quite a few visiting Germans (in particular) as well as

French, Finns & Italians.

Most are sophisticated enough to realize that the whole of the USA isn't the Wild West.

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Response to wake.up.america (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 12:24 AM

44. Violent Crime is at a decade lows...

 

Some people need to think with logic instead of being fearful stupid sheeple.

FBI UCR five year violent-crime* ratetrend:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/violent-crime/violent-crime-offense-figure

**violent Crime = murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault

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Response to wake.up.america (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 04:59 AM

46. HA. A joke. I would not throw stones from the glass house of Europe.

 

Besides, they had no problem coming here - with our guns - for hundreds of years.
Where do you think all these white Americans came from?!

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Response to Zax2me (Reply #46)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 05:55 AM

48. So, this means there is no reason to have trepidations about visiting Cincinnati?

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