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Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:39 PM

You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands

The more I hear a bunch of ignorant gun nuts argue they need their assult rifles to protect our Constitution from our government and that teachers should be packin heat in classrooms, the more I think the bumper sticker slogan in the subject title of this thread often spouted by the NRA just might be the solution our country needs.

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Reply You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands (Original post)
Martin Eden Dec 2012 OP
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #1
former-republican Dec 2012 #2
Martin Eden Dec 2012 #3
Downwinder Dec 2012 #5
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #8
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #18
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #31
Lurker Deluxe Dec 2012 #35
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #37
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #38
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #40
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #42
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #44
Fawke Em Dec 2012 #45
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #48
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #55
Fawke Em Dec 2012 #57
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #54
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #56
IdaBriggs Dec 2012 #29
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #32
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #6
Lurker Deluxe Dec 2012 #25
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #26
Lurker Deluxe Dec 2012 #28
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #30
Lurker Deluxe Dec 2012 #33
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #36
Lurker Deluxe Dec 2012 #41
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #43
Lurker Deluxe Dec 2012 #50
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #51
Fawke Em Dec 2012 #46
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #47
Lurker Deluxe Dec 2012 #52
bakpakr Dec 2012 #4
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #7
friendly_iconoclast Dec 2012 #10
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #12
friendly_iconoclast Dec 2012 #15
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #16
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #19
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #20
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #21
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #22
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #23
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #24
Dems to Win Dec 2012 #9
friendly_iconoclast Dec 2012 #11
TlalocW Dec 2012 #13
ComplimentarySwine Dec 2012 #14
Martin Eden Dec 2012 #17
Toronto Dec 2012 #27
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #39
99Forever Dec 2012 #34
Iggo Dec 2012 #49
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #53
Iggo Dec 2012 #58
a geek named Bob Dec 2012 #59
madmell Jan 2013 #60
uppityperson Jan 2013 #61

Response to Martin Eden (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:40 PM

1. How about we just build areas wherein guns WON'T work? n/t

 

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:42 PM

2. Like magic places?

 

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:42 PM

3. How would an "area" defeat the mechanical action of a gun? n/t

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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #3)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:46 PM

5. Piece of cake. Electronic lock.

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Response to Downwinder (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:57 PM

8. We could add an integral GPs chip to each gun sold...

 

It would freeze up some part of the gun (your choice) in certain areas.

Removing the chip could be considered a crime.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #8)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 09:27 AM

18. Turn in your geek card

Unless it is phaser that will not work

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #18)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:00 AM

31. really?

 

A GPS chip that activates a solenoid to block the magazine from feeding the next round wouldn't work?
A GPS chip that locks the safety in SAFE wouldn't work?

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #31)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:08 AM

35. What powers that solenoid?

What kind of power source is used to activate this devise? And would it not be defeated by taking the battery out?

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Response to Lurker Deluxe (Reply #35)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:12 AM

37. so make it failsafe positive...

 

the batteries out, the latch locks in place.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #31)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:24 AM

38. Have you considered the antenna issues alone?

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #38)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:28 AM

40. okay... let's look at it...

 

This is why I was thinking of these being site installations, instead of portable units.

I figure building these are a win-win-win...

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #40)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:47 AM

42. Antenna issues on the firearms

Other issues include
- Power
- Failure modes
- Retrofits

Its pretty clear that disabling technologies for analog firearms is problematic at best.

Not all societal problems have technology based solutions. I used to think otherwise, but as I have gotten older, I came to understand the futility of that position

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #42)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 12:05 PM

44. the whole idea is NOT to put the sweller on the firearms... it's to shield schools, etc. n/t

 

"you'll understand when you are older?" Really?

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #44)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 12:10 PM

45. If it helps, I thought of the same thing, yesterday.

Guns that could be disabled and would automatically be disabled if you remove the chip that disables them in safe zones.

And I work for a technology company. I see no reason why it couldn't be done (granted, my company doesn't do that kind of technology, but I work with some incredibly smart people who could certainly develop something like that).

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Response to Fawke Em (Reply #45)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 12:18 PM

48. If you like the idea...

 

share it. If you make money with it, I'd like some. If you want me to build, I want the following:

parts and labor (skilled wage, thanks)
1 burger
1 beer

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Response to Fawke Em (Reply #45)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 02:06 PM

55. The write it up and get it to the USPO

There is probably a line at the door on some of this already. (We are moving to first to file)

As a high tech guy who understands firearms well, I don't see this kind of approach as solution for anything but phasers, and no help for the 300M+ analog firearms already out there.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #55)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 02:11 PM

57. The existing guns are a drawback, for sure.

But one has to start somewhere.

(And I did think of the existing guns when I was talking to co-workers about this yesterday. Not much you can do about them).

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #44)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 02:02 PM

54. Without something on the firearm, how do you detect it?

Aromatic taggants have their limits and are not foolproof

RF approaches are technically doubtful.

I am not playing the age card, but pointing out that those who believe we can solve societal problems solely through technology are going to be disappointed. I certainly was...

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #54)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 02:07 PM

56. I was figuring on school wide panic buttons.

 

that, or set up metal detectors at the doors.

Technical solutions have worked so far, in my experience.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #8)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:57 AM

29. Possibilities... nt

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Response to IdaBriggs (Reply #29)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:02 AM

32. another way might be

 

to use RFID chips...

certain places would have pylons that energize the RIFD tag, locking the gun into SAFE mode.

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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #3)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:49 PM

6. My idea, in brief...

 

Take a quickly switchable RF transmitter, paired with a set of receivers.

There will be a frequency where the barrel will warm up. When the receiver picks up that the barrel in question is heating up, the main transmitter goes to full power. The barrel heats up (uncomfortably, most likely), swells, and loses true shaping.

The big problem would be the power involved...

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 09:57 AM

25. Or...

Easily defeatable by taking the tinfoil off your head and wrapping it around your gun.

LMAO!

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Response to Lurker Deluxe (Reply #25)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:00 AM

26. what a wonderfully subtle way of responding...

 

also, isn't that kind of puerile, on your part?

A technical solution is ALWAYS better than the precursors to a witch hunt.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #26)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:55 AM

28. Well ...

When something is proposed that is so out there I guess I am not very good at a subtle way of saying that.

Making a gun barrel hot enough to lose "shape" would require quite a bit of power. That power would have to be located on the gun, the fact that you had to tote 30 pounds of batteries around with you would pretty much make the gun useless without any transmitter. After the barrel lost shape, it would have lost it's temper, making the weapon unsafe to use ever again.

If it was just enough power to make the barrel "uncomfortable" I am pretty sure the stock and foregrip would insulate any user from that discomfort, just as it does when the barrel gets hot when it is being used. Past that, a pair of $10 leather gloves would resolve that issue.

Real world solutions are great, nonsense is nonsense.

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Response to Lurker Deluxe (Reply #28)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:58 AM

30. right...

 

all it would take is the right set of freqs to get the job done.

I was thinking this machine would a site installation: someone brings a gun to school, and it never works again.

Gun free schools. Hit the button, and the school is safe.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #30)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:04 AM

33. Hell yea!!

I did not know all it would take is "the right set of freqs" to make any and all guns unusable with the "hit of a button".

We can disarm the entire world, with the "hit of a button". Hell, let's make it portable, hostage situation ... roll up that truck and "hit the button" everyone is disarmed instantly.

How big can this zone be?

What complete nonsense.

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Response to Lurker Deluxe (Reply #33)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:12 AM

36. As it would use a LOT of power... I can't think of a way to make it portable...

 

Maybe base it in a semi?

It's worth a shot... (pardon the pun...)

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #36)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:42 AM

41. OK, what exactly casues the barrel to heat up?

I'm just a machinist, but I know a little about heat treating and how hot things have to get to lose thier "shape". Most of the time in the heat treating world an oven is used to heat the metal to a certain degree and then it is cooled in a certain way as to achieve the hardness you want. There are inductive ways to heat metal that require the metal part to be wrapped in a conductive cord and then a lot of power is passed through that cord causing the part to heat.

Now, without making a gun weight 45 pounds because it has 3 car batteries on it, how exactly do you intend to create the needed power to make a gun barrel hot enough to lose shape? And, I would assume that unless you could make this happen in a matter of seconds it would do little good.

Just the power logistics, how do you make that gun barrel heat to 500 degrees??(just a guess, prolly would need to be hotter to make the weapon unusable)

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Response to Lurker Deluxe (Reply #41)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 12:03 PM

43. I wan't figuring on putting this on GUNS

 

I was figuring you'd place these machines in the areas you want safe. RF dielectric heating would be the operating principle. A barrel's a wave guide, no?

The power to run this thing is the real problem. It would have to be built into a structure (the only way to really make it work would be to use flash discharge capacitors, or fuel cells.) Call it 500C *4.2 (watts to calories) * 120 (spec heat of carbon steel) *efficiency = 252 KJ * reciprocal of efficiency.



It only has to work once, to make a gun unusable.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #43)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 12:41 PM

50. Past my pay grade to be sure ...

Like I said, I am just a machinist, so the ability to generate a field like that is not something I am familar with. I would assume you are attempting to turn a school into a microwave.

This field that you speak of, would it not heat up any metal that was in the range of the wave? Would not any hollow tube (pen) create the same effect, and because of mass heat up even more rapidly than the heavier object (gun)? The metal bar in the student's desk? The water pipes? Would this not, in fact, destroy the very structure of the building? The metal conduit that the wires run in the walls? Wouldn't the walls catch on fire because of the heat?

All this, of coarse, is dependant on the fact that you would be able to generate a field with this kind of power that covers an acre of square land, for a small school.

Again, way past my pay grade, but I say ... rubbish, horsehockey, nonsense.

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Response to Lurker Deluxe (Reply #50)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 12:47 PM

51. traveling wave guides (which is what a barrel serves as) in effect are "tuned"

 

a given diameter and length will pick a given frequency. that's why the low power fast switching freqs. You find the freq that corresponds to the barrel in question, in then go to full power.

mind you, If would save a lot of time to figure out the freqs for the barrels out there, and then make a set of pre-dialed "stations."

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 12:15 PM

46. You don't need that.

The military already has some of that technology and it doesn't require that much power.

I'd use a chip to receive the signal and it would lock the gun safety. If you tried to remove the chip, the gun would lock and could not be unlocked without destroying the weapon. You don't have to heat the barrel or anything like that.

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Response to Fawke Em (Reply #46)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 12:17 PM

47. I was figuring on a quick and dirty solution to PERMANENTLY render a firearm useless...

 

even if said weapon has no chip.
permanent gun shield.

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Response to Fawke Em (Reply #46)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 12:47 PM

52. Not possible

A gun is a very simple mechanical devise. There is no way to lock a gun that would prevent it from ever being used. You simply take apart the gun, and when putting it back together leave out that part.

These weapons that you are talking about come apart in pieces in less than a minute, changing these parts out takes little competance, locks like you speak of would be defeated with little effort.

Retrofitting them to the millions of guns out there would be impossible.

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Response to Martin Eden (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:44 PM

4. My reply to them would be,

Fine if that is the way you want it. We'll get a drone right on that.

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Response to bakpakr (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:52 PM

7. If I can jam the drone, can I keep it?

 

I love model planes!

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #7)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:00 PM

10. Got a couple of grand? You might be able to do just that:

http://arstechnica.com/security/2012/12/how-to-bring-down-mission-critical-gps-networks-with-2500/

Risk Assessment / Security & Hacktivism
How to bring down mission-critical GPS networks with $2,500
Novel attacks severely disrupt GPS gear used by the military, private industry.


by Dan Goodin - Dec 14 2012, 9:00am EST

Scientists have devised a series of novel and inexpensive attacks that can severely disrupt mission-critical global positioning systems relied on by the military and a variety of industrial players, including airlines, mining companies, and operators of hydroelectric plants and other critical infrastructure.

Unlike previous GPS attacks, the one developed by a team of scientists from Carnegie Mellon University and a private navigation company exploits software bugs in the underlying receivers. That allows the attacks to be stealthier and more persistent than earlier exploits, which primarily relied on signal jamming and spoofing. Prototype hardware that cost only $2,500 to build is able to cause a wide variety of GPS devices within a 30 mile radius to malfunction. Because many of those devices are nodes on special networks that make GPS signals more precise, the attacks have the effect of disrupting larger systems used in aviation, military, and critical infrastructure.

The PCSS, or phase-coherent signal synthesizer, that they developed simultaneously receives and transmits civil GPS signals. It carries out many of the same things done by spoofers used in earlier GPS attacks. But instead of merely providing false information designed to compromise the accuracy of the GPS readings, it includes data that exploits weaknesses in the firmware of nearby receivers, many of which use the Internet to share their readings with other machines. The success of the PCSS is the result of an almost complete lack of authentication in the devices that send and receive GPS signals.

"Our findings suggest despite the fact that GPS is an unauthenticated broadcast protocol, current receivers treat any incoming signal as guaranteed correct," the scientists wrote in a research paper. "Worse, receivers often run full OSes with network services. Together, the possibility of RF and ethernet attacks creates a large attack surface."...



http://users.ece.cmu.edu/~dbrumley/courses/18487-f12/readings/Nov28_GPS.pdf

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #10)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:07 PM

12. no disrespect to our military, but this sounds like a major run

 

to Ramsey electronics, and you've got a drone-killer.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #12)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:48 PM

15. I'm not comfortable with the military being so GPS-centric.

They have made so many things so dependent on GPS it has become a SPOF
(single point of failure) in any number of systems.

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #15)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:52 PM

16. AMEN TO THAT!!! All we need is Loss Of Signal (LOS) and the whole shebang goes down...

 

Do we even have LORAN or the older OMEGA system anymore?

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 09:29 AM

19. That approach is for civilian portable units.

Little impact if any on higher end unit, civilian or military

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #19)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 09:35 AM

20. then a frequncy match and jam... n/t

 

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #20)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 09:37 AM

21. You don't seem to know a lot about GPS do you?

Google some of this, there is all sorts of stuff in the open literature on anti spoof and anti jam.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #21)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 09:39 AM

22. hey... I just want a free model airplane... n/t

 

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 09:50 AM

23. Frequency scanner and then a medium power emitter

It will take down the toys really well and some of the lower end LEO stuff as well. Its not blocking the GPS, it is blocking the command link.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #23)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 09:55 AM

24. Sort of what I was talking about...

 

The "I'm worried about the GPS" bit was due to so many people (and some in our Armed Forces) that seem to rely solely on GPS.

Ramsey Electronics sells a FM transmitter in a trunk, that ought to do the job...

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Response to bakpakr (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:00 PM

9. +1

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #9)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:01 PM

11. Check out the post above yours...

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Response to Martin Eden (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:26 PM

13. Okay, I call dibs

Where do you plan on being buried? Be sure to let everyone know the gun in your cold, dead hands is mine! MINE!

TlalocW

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Response to Martin Eden (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:30 PM

14. More violence to solve the violence problem

 

Will you be taking the guns from the gang neighborhoods and the drug dens, or just from the relatively law abiding upper middle class?

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Response to ComplimentarySwine (Reply #14)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:48 PM

17. Just blowing off steam at the gun nuts ...

... not intended as a serious proposal, though no doubt some of these bozos would fire at federal agents before relinquishing their assult weapons.

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Response to ComplimentarySwine (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:18 AM

27. Better solution

 

Just make all the bullets mildly radioactive - the more you play with them, the more you risk getting cancer. Given the state of medicare, the gun nuts will eliminate themselves....

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Response to Toronto (Reply #27)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:25 AM

39. Not a bad idea...

 

which isotope?

I'd stay away from the SNM, myself...

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Response to ComplimentarySwine (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:05 AM

34. Well golly gee...

... then, guess we just do nothing.


Thanks for playing.

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Response to Martin Eden (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 12:41 PM

49. "Kill me and take my gun" doesn't seem like a very sensible motto.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #49)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 01:09 PM

53. How about the ever popular

 

"Molon Labe"

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #53)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 03:15 PM

58. Same diff.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #58)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 03:47 PM

59. cool...

 

And I like your sig line.

My family would approve.

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Response to Martin Eden (Original post)


Response to madmell (Reply #60)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:18 PM

61. I tied my shoelaces today. Must you kill me? I can't tie a tie though so maybe I am safe.

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