Ok, let's get one thing straight about the 'betrayal'....

[Aviation Pro]

...this is a fucking gambit on the part of the President. It's designed to lure the fuckheads into a trap as they try to bargain down. Those folks here who are fucking crying SELLOUT! are the same ones that panicked after the first debate.

News flash.

The President crushed the billionaires boys club to the ground in November, I think he fucking knows what he's doing and you have not a fucking clue what other cards he holds in his sniper steady hands.

I trust this President implicitly.

[Jackpine Radical]

1. It's n-dimensional chess, I tell ya--

Like when he cleverly gave away the public option before bargaining even began.

[Aviation Pro]

2. First frigging term...

...he understands history and knows ACA will grow and adapt.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

29. He never wanted the public option.

[Jackpine Radical]

69. I agree.

So what do you conclude about SocSec?

It's such clever n-dimensional chess that the people he's winning against don't even realize they're the opponents.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

72. He's supposed to be trying to strengthen it

not weaken it.

[Jackpine Radical]

74. I was suggesting that the Republicans aren't the real "opponents."

[UnrepentantLiberal]

75. I know.

But who are the Republicans here?

http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/domestic-taxes/272957-obama-says-his-economic-policies-so-mainstream-hed-be-seen-as-moderate-republican-in-1980s

[Volaris]

73. I think Mr. Speaker might be starting to figure it out,

like he can see the checkmate coming, and it's slowly dawning on him how badly he's going to get fucked on this game. All he can do now is keep moving his king (and he's running out of running room) and hope the President decides that a Mercy Killing is more sporting than the total anniliation of taking all the other pieces off the board first.

[roguevalley]

64. years from now. Don't die or get sick until then. Also, if it doesn't cover

you, just wait. Wait. Wait. Wait...

[H2O Man]

36. Checkmate!

[Skip Intro]

56. +100. nt

[LWolf]

68. Deja Vu. nt

[Jackpine Radical]

70. Deja Screw.

[LWolf]

92. +1

[COLGATE4]

82. None so blind as those who will not see... nt

[TheCowsCameHome]

4. Time will tell.

Meanwhile I, and many others, have to worry about our benefits being cut.

This isn't good.

[tblue]

46. Thank you. What an arrogant op.

I hope for the best but it hasn't happened yet and if past is prelude, indicators are not good.

[roguevalley]

65. agreed. there was another post where someone told anyone

who didn't agree the same way, he said "FUCK YOU!" in giant letters. Nice.

[Honeycombe8]

5. Once he puts it in an offer, it's there...

unless he switches it out for something similar.

I heard things similar to this before, when he was in fact sort of caving. Republicans view that as weak and it emboldens their demands.

I wish you were right. But all I know is that Obama has offered to cut SS benefits, even though SS is not part of the budget. He wants a deal really really badly. I think he was not serious about letting us go over the fiscal cliff if necessary.

[wildbilln864]

6. k & r! & bookmarked! nt

[uponit7771]

7. Naw...naw....Obama hates us and has 4 under arms cause CNN says so...so....yeah /sarcasm

[Fumesucker]

8. Actually I was one of the ones who thought Obama was doing fine after the first debate

Obama let Romney be Romney and got everybody talking about the bird.

[forestpath]

9. Thanks for the laugh.

[freshwest]

10. Leaks are made to enrage and motivate the voters. Obama asked people to call their representatives

in both parties a month ago, and some DUers balked.

They said he was supposed to do this all by himself - after all, they'd voted for him and that was the end of it, quit pestering them to stay involved in the process.

Now the same ones who said they would not be so imposed upon and called his request 'bullshit' - are screaming their heads off.

Maybe this will get them to call all of their representatives no matter what party, to raise hell about this at last. Just as he asked them to do.

[GeorgeGist]

14. Bullshit ...

doesn't become you.

[Selatius]

20. That's kind of counter-intuitive to a website dominated by party activists at DU.

There's always been a push from activists here to make the president go further left. I don't recall a majority of them saying that the hands-off approach was the best one. I'm sure one or two members said such things, but given Nancy Pelosi's statements recently, I think the hands-off approach from the activists is now off the table. This is going to be a letter-writing/calling campaign.

[freshwest]

25. I did not say ALL. I had conversations with SOME who said it was bullshit they be asked to call.

I said some, those I personally engaged in.

And the reason for these leaks if precisely what I said it was - to enrage and get people to call.

If you think I should forget the people who told me, and there was more than one, that my pleas for them to stay involved was bullshit - which Obama asked - are too much for sensitive DUers, fine, I can edit or delete.

I'm not calling anyone bullshit or their posts bullshit. I'm repeating what was said to me. Am I supposed to forget what I've been told when I begged people to call a month ago?

I'm more than a little bit tired of it. Thank you for your thoughtful response.

[leftstreet]

31. FFS! Voters just sent him back to DC

What else does he want?

[one_voice]

37. He wants them to give republicans...

hell. To blow up their phones...not literally--calling.

Do to them what the baggers did to the Democrats. Pressure, pressure, pressure.

They're under the impression they have some kind of mandate, they need to be told they're wrong...over and over again.

[sheshe2]

38. I do not know what FFS means...

However I do believe that the President is asking others to stand up and make their collective voices heard.

Not just our vote on election day. The one that sent him back to DC. He is asking us to pressure the do nothing GOP congress and the Senators (ie Mitch)and so many others. They would would rather see America fall to her knees than assist an African American/Democrat succeed in leading this nation forward!

Do you really think that we should be voting for our ideals and the walking away from the fight?

Do you really think that he can do it alone?

[Fumesucker]

39. For Fuck's Sake n/t

[sheshe2]

40. Gee...Thanks

[lonestarnot]

52. You asked by your admission of lack of knowledge as to what FFS was.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

59. What they meant was FFS = For Fucks Sake.

It wasn't personal.

[sheshe2]

62. I knew that...didn't take it as a hit!

[bvar22]

85. ... you mean like the 70% of Americans who STOOD and said...

...that they wanted the Public Option?
You mean like that?

or the 67% of Americans who have already STOOD and said:
[font size=5]NO cuts to Social Security
Raise Taxes on the RICH[/font]

like THAT?

[Liberalynn]

76. I did call and write and know Move On, AARP, Union Members etc are doing the same, Saw plenty

of tweets flying to Republican and Democratic Congress Critters and Pres against it, as well as pettitions. Yet, still not hearing its off the table though and still not hearing even a majority of Dems saying that they will outright vote this down if it is in the bill let alone Republicans. Some like Barbara Lee, and independent Bernie Sanders have committed to voting against any bill that contains this, but not nearly enough to scuttle the proposed deal.

I am not saying people shouldn't write, call, sign pettions, or whatever else needs to be done. I agree we totally need to keep it up.

My issue is that this gambit shouldn't have been taken to begin with. What if it doesn't get taken out even with all our calls, letters etc? We will still be stuck with in that case.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. In the meantime the rest of us will continue to call and pester

If this is just a trial balloon it needs a response nevertheless. A muscular one.

[Tom Rinaldo]

12. You don't have to believe Obama is a traitor to be concerned

Democrats chose the middle way all of the time - except not quite as often when it comes to the crown jewls of the social safety net. Obama has already given ground in public on the Bush Tax cuts,an issue he won the election on, and we really need that revenue so that there will be less pressure to do thinks like this indexing change to Social Security. It's not like the Republican House is going to pass legislation ennacting any significant new progressive revenue streams.

[GeorgeGist]

18. Even moderate Republicans ...

Didn't welsh on SS in the 80's.

[MotherPetrie]

13. With all due respect

BULLSHIT.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

15. I don't think the first debate can be compared to his negotiations now at all. It was 100%

right to question his performance on that night.

just sayin

[Hydra]

28. +1000

The President forgot what he stood for that debate night, and the rest of us were wondering what happened.

The screams got him back on track. Maybe they will again...even Bush couldn't force a privatizing of SSI when the noise got loud enough.

[sendero]

77. debates

Anyone that thinks Obama's pitiful performance in the first debate was some sort of "strategy" needs to put down the freaking bowl.

He got blindsided and he choked. He recovered nicely in the second but to suggest he wasn't on his heels in the first is ridiculous.

[Exen Trik]

16. I can see this being the case... however

What would be much better is to have progressive principles being clearly and loudly argued for, explained, no destructive compromises being proposed and us not having to believe that we're stuck with a lesser of two evils. Even if it pans out to not be the case... that isn't the way to keep momentum going, support up and make the general public better informed. And we NEED to do that if we're ever going to dig our way out of this.

[Enrique]

17. at least you're admitting he proposed it

living in reality is a good start.

[Brickbat]

19. Then shame on him for using our most vulnerable as a "fucking gambit." SHAME.

[DirkGently]

21. I think the reasonable thing is for people to respond to what is said.

... not what someone wishes to argue we should imagine they intend. That goes beyond "trust" and into the realm of "blind faith" in my opinion.

Even if this were true, people would be idiots to remain silent about a proposal to which they vehemently object on the the theory there is some "end game" where it doesn't really happen.

[limpyhobbler]

45. +1

i agree with this. Respond to what they say. Especially when they keep saying it from year to year.

[0rganism]

22. We'll see how it plays out

I think it's been obvious from the start that the President's real bargaining power kicks in after January 3, with a new congress and expired tax cuts. It's possible he has to put up a show of cooperation until then to placate the public, but he needs to be very careful with how he does that, or the republicans will be able to cast him as "not serious".

[Hydra]

30. He's been able to tell the Repubs to go to hell

And get better poll numbers. The fact that he's not doing that now when he has the most leverage is more than a little disturbing.

[spanone]

23. k&r...

[bhikkhu]

24. Exactly. And I remember how the repugs played public perception like a fiddle the last two times

Obama was going to de-fund NPR, abandon Planned Parenthood, abandon the unemployed, nuke medicare and social security, cave on healthcare reform, etc, etc....never happened. Now we have the same hair on fire desperate frenzy again over the same recycled talking points?

[fishwax]

26. very possibly true -- and if so, some uproar from the left will help make it work

[southern_belle]

32. Thank you!

I agree!

[whatchamacallit]

33. Sure

whatever you say...

[kentuck]

34. Cut the crap.

"sniper steady hands..." ??

[Aviation Pro]

35. Pardon?

WTF?

[Jakes Progress]

41. Faith is the presence of belief without proof.

Congratulations on your faith. It's kinda touching.

So. Let me see what you are saying. You claim (with no evidence whatsoever) that the president's offer to cut Social Security and raise the income level for tax relief is only a ploy, that he is only pretending to offer these, that he would never really cut social security and let the rich get away with more money.

Ok. Then tell me how you will react if the president signs off on a deal that does just what he offered to the republicans? Will you fucking cry "Sellout!" ? Or will you find some way to adjust whatever progressive or liberal leanings you have to convince yourself that it is now okay for a Democratic president to do that?

Can you see your dilemma? Will you look at your position honestly and decide if your principles or your heroes are more important to you? Or do you lack a fucking clue as to how stupid your position is?

(Oh. And do you really want to go with the sniper gunner image right now? Now?)

[wilsonbooks]

48. AS Bob Dylan said. Don't follow leaders, watch the parking meters.

Hero worship does not build a movement,

[Aviation Pro]

49. Yeah, I do...

....it's my culture and where I grew up. Try this on for size, you're like a strawberry, pretty to look at but easily bruised. I suggest you get some thick skin and a spine because for the next few years you're either are going to develop the strength necessary to see beyond yourself or you're going to end up curled up in a fetal ball.

I trust the President because he has the strength to deal with the horseshit coming from every direction, he has a vision for this country and the gonads to make unpopular decisions.

And he does this for the good of the country.

[tkmorris]

60. Yeah. The good of the country.

THAT'S why he proposed the changes to SS.

You sound like a caricature, do you realize that?

[Jakes Progress]

78. Is incoherence part of your culture?

Let's help you break down your syntactical and argumentative errors. (Given your spittle dripping replies and fevered rhetoric, I doubt there is any help for your lack of core principles.)

You said "yeah, I do" Uh. Do what? Were you ignoring my whole post and replying only to the last sentence? If so, then you claim to come from a culture of shooting people from a hidden place. You claim a culture of snipers. No wonder your views are so scrambled away from liberalism and honor.

Maybe it was a reply to my whole post. If so, it is incoherent. Unless the goal was to hide from the questions I asked about how you would respond to the president's actually caving to republicans on SS and taxes - something that you OP said he wouldn't do because he was only kidding about it to goad the republicans. Is cowardice and ducking the issues a part of your culture? Is that what you meant. Surely not. Surely you just forgot to reply to my question. So here it is again. Suppose your OP premise that the President was only baiting republicans into a trap and never really means to negatively affect SS and positively affect rich people's tax rates is wrong. Suppose he does cut SS and cut rich people's taxes. Is that okay with you?

Thank your for your complement on my beauty. How did you know? Now maybe you would explain what your whole off the topic rant on my skin has to do with our exchange.

I posit that you have no idea what the issues are. And that you simple follow your hero blindly regardless of what he does. That you lack a core of liberal or progressive beliefs. See, rooting for cutting rich people's taxes and cutting SS are not liberal tenets. Perhaps you have wandered into a forum mistakenly, one that doesn't really want republican ideology advanced.

Or perhaps you just don't know what is going on. Seems likely to be the latter.

[Aviation Pro]

88. How's it feel to be wrong...

...again?

Don't bother answering.

[Jakes Progress]

90. You tell me.

Don't bother answering.

Oh. You forgot to answer any of the questions I asked you about the issue you opined in your OP. That or you just can't think for yourself and need someone to give you some answers. Now you can snark back, or you can answer the question about how you would feel if the president agreed to cut SS and taxes on the rich. I bet I know which one you'll do.

[Aviation Pro]

93. Take a hike, stud...

...and welcome to the ignore list.

[Jakes Progress]

95. How did you know?

And thank you for putting me on your list. Then you won't be replying to any of my wisdom with your inane blather. It is a good idea to avoid arguing with someone so much smarter than yourself. So putting me on ignore was a good choice.

[SHRED]

43. LOL...public option...as in...

...

"Any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange: a one-stop shopping marketplace where you can compare the benefits, cost and track records of a variety of plans - including a public option to increase competition and keep insurance companies honest - and choose what’s best for your family."

--

[In Truth We Trust]

44. I don't trust him at all! He sold us out too many times already! You been in a coma?

[jerseyjack]

47. Moderators: Ban me or suspend me for a week if you want.

I AM CALLING MYSELF A DUMB FUCK.

Here, all the time, I thought Obama was fucking us over. Thank God, Aviation Pro straightened me out.

Now I know, Obama's playing 3-D chess. When the final votes are in, S.S. benefits will be increased. The 1% will be paying 50%. Military bases will be closed to save money. Oil depletion allowances will turn into tax debts.

The deficit will be reduced. The debt will be wiped out.

[caseymoz]

50. If it is nth-dimensional chess,

then we're supposed to complain loudly to Congress and the President to keep their hands off Social Security and Medicare, so the Repubs will back off and agree with Obama that cutting those two programs is political suicide.

Therefore, it would go according to Obama's plan if act like you're convinced his offer is real and crop the outrage even if you implicitly trust him. Those of us attacking him for, what looks to be, his wicked scheme, are actually doing what he needs us to do.

I mean, WTF are you afraid of? It's not like he has to get re-elected.

[MrModerate]

51. Hope you're right . . .

Don't think you are.

[OnyxCollie]

53. We'll fix it later!

That's what I heard when Sen. Obama voted to give retroactive immunity to the telecomms AFTER he promised to filibuster the bill.

Now he's expanded domestic surveillance.

And you trust this President implicitly? Well, that says a lot about you. (Gullible, naive, stupid, etc....)

[progressoid]

54. Actually WE crushed one wing of the billionaire boys club in Nov.

But there are plenty of billionaires that still have a stranglehold in DC.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

55. His first offer cuts Social Security and raised income to 400k.

What do you think he's going to offer up in his next if he withdraws this one?

Are you saying since the Republicans refused this one he's going to offer less? That doesn't make sense from a negotiation standpoint.

[soryang]

58. He's also going to reduce corporate taxes

...which haven't been lower in forty years. He's a chicago school acolyte.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

61. Thank you for reminding me of that.

Makes the point even more of how much he offered in his first deal.

Which begs the question, what could he offer up next to appease the Republicans?

[Jakes Progress]

79. You got it right when you said "That doesn't make sense".

That describes the OP perfectly.

[Agnosticsherbet]

57. Getting octogenarians pay for tax cuts for the 250,000 to 400,000 dollar income folk?

Brilliant betrayal.

[GObamaGO]

63. I will believe it when I see it.

While I do support President Obama, I do not like the bargain he struck with the Affordable Care Act. It gave way too much to the insurance companies and not enough to the people. The ACA is a start, and unless we can keep the Senate and take back the House, it will not grow into a better plan for the people.

[supercats]

66. Trust???

This President has yet to prove to be trustworthy. His first term he failed the test, and we gave him a pass
because of all the teabaggers in congress. But now it's going to be his final term, and he will have more
progressives and less teabaggers in office, and he is already slipping back to his old ways, just after he
won in a landslide. Trust has to be earned, and he has/is giving us no reason to trust him. He needs to
show the American people, the ones who put him back in office, that he has our backs, then and only then
can we start to trust him.

[donheld]

67. I trust NO president implicitly

[Liberalynn]

81. +1

Me neither. The notion that you cannot criticize a President reminds me of those Pukes in my political science class in college who used to say "my country right or wrong."

There seems to be a failure to comprehend that there is such a thing as constructive criticism. That maybe just maybe it is being offered because those making it want the country or the President to become even stronger and progress even further.

Some may even consider that it is a vital and necessary responsibility of a citizen of a democracy to challenge our President and our Congressional "Representatives" (key word there)to remember they are ultimately and should be held accountable at all times to the will of the people, who elected them to office.

Its all subjective and a matter of opinion of course, but a person's motivations for offering said opinions matter.

[lunatica]

71. I learned 2 years ago to take 'leaks' with a grain of salt

The President has done remarkably well considering the dead weight Republicans doing their best to drown him. Sometimes I think these so-called 'leaks' out of the White House are planted by the Republicans.

[Marr]

80. I have a car I'd love to sell you.

[OldDem2012]

83. Damn right! Thank you times a thousand! I'm sick of the neutered Chicken Littles on this board.....

....who keep demanding that the President grow a pair! Laughable, truly laughable!

[rusty fender]

84. What an offensive post

First, too many "F" words, and did you really have to go there with "sniper steady hands," especially after Sandy Hook?

[Aviation Pro]

89. Because that's who I am....

...don't like it, can't stand the heat, you know where to leave.

[treestar]

86. Rec'd

He knows what he's doing, he's smart and he has the best advice - I'm not sure about going over the cliff, but if he thinks it worth avoiding, as usual, he'll probably get a better deal than anyone else would.

[Aviation Pro]

87. Gee, I love being right....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022041656

[Scurrilous]

91. K & R

[grahamhgreen]

94. The billionaires are running the country & Food for old folks is not a gambling chip.

You don't gamble with old folks ability to get food, shelter or medical care!