I think people are really overlooking the biggest issue here.

[Initech]

It's not easy access to guns, gun culture or mental health issues. Sure those are huge problems that we must address. But the 800 pound gorilla in the room isn't any of those things.

It's our fear driven, talking-points based media.

Since September 12th, 2001 our media has morphed into this radical, fear driven entity. The type of entity that has led to "Doomsday Preppers" - people who are stockpiling guns, food, gold, and ammo for whatever bizarre end of the world scenario that they've dreamed up could happen. It's the type of entity that - since Obama got elected, caused the sale of guns to rise to unheard of levels for the fear that Obama will somehow "take them away", whatever that is. Fear and talking points drives gun sales, gun technologies, and definitely does not improve mental health. Until we address what has become of our media, nothing is ever going to change.

[MichiganVote]

1. Its all of it. All of it needs to change. There is no one biggest issue.

[progressoid]

6. +1

[Common Sense Party]

51. "All of it needs to change."

Sounds like a pretty tall order.

How likely do you think it is that EVERYTHING will simply...change?

[Initech]

55. But you do have to admit that our media causes a lot of our problems.

[kestrel91316]

2. Irresponsible, negligent gun owners who let their toys be used for murder

are as guilty as the perps. We need to stop excusing their complicity.

I HOPE we start taking guns away - from those who are too reckless and irresponsible to own them.

Lock 'em up or watch them get grabbed. We the People are coming.

[MichiganVote]

9. I agree. But there is no evidence that the mother was irresponsible.

So please, she lost her life. He shot her four times. She died before she could reach her son. If there is any "sin" it is that she did not know who to go to before this happened.

[Mr.Bill]

12. The fact that a young man who lived in her house

and she knew had mental health issues got his hands on those guns is evidence enough that she was irresponsible. Those guns should have been locked up and he should have not had access to them.

Not only that but she took him to the range and instructed him how to operate them.

[MichiganVote]

13. You don't know that they weren't locked up. And prior to this he had not

been reported as aggressive toward others.

He had been seeing a physician for medication and likely counseling. If i had to guess, I'd say that he took himself off his meds w/o her knowledge. But that's just a guess. His autopsy will reveal more information.

[Mr.Bill]

14. And you don't know that they were locked up.

Yet in your post #9 you nade a very definite statement that there was no evidence of irresposibility.

Now you're not sure and you are guessing.

You're right about one thing, we don't know all the facts, yet.

I'm "guessing" that Adam did not pick the lock on a gun safe to get access to the weapons.

[MichiganVote]

16. He may well have had a key or knew where she kept it. So what?

Still doesn't prove she was irresponsible and doesn't change the fact that assault weapons are hazardous. Period.

[Mr.Bill]

22. We'll have to agree to disagree

If she (or any gun owner) lets anyone with mental health issues have access to their guns, they are irresponsible.

As far as your second point, all guns are potentially hazardous in the wrong hands, not just assault weapons.

[MichiganVote]

26. All cars are potentially dangerous too. But its a safe bet that 5mph vs. 95mph

suggests that any risky driving is vastly different. Assault weapons increase the likelihood of severe damage or death, especially in a school scenario.

[Mr.Bill]

27. Agreed, and exactly my point.

You don't let a drunk have access to your car keys. That would be irresposible.

[MichiganVote]

31. Except when they steal your care my dear.

[Mr.Bill]

32. But they will have to work to get at it.

Letting someone have access is quite different than having it stolen. It doesn't soind like this shooter had to work to get at the guns.

[MichiganVote]

34. You don't know that Bill.

[Mr.Bill]

39. And to get back to your post #9, which prompted my response.

You are the one who made the statement that there is no evidence the mother was irresponsible.

And you don't know that, either. I'm sure there is much we don't know yet.

Thanks for having a civil conversation. I have been on so many websites for years where people are incapable of that.

[MichiganVote]

40. :) Yes, its only a discussion board. We haven't been elevated to the Supreme Court yet.

[Mr.Bill]

42. LOL

[Zoeisright]

46. The end result is the same.

God, you gun nuts are complete idiots.

[Mr.Bill]

48. I hope you're not calling me a gun nut, because I've never owned one.

And I don't plan to.

[Initech]

49. Not this crap again.

It's much easier to kill somebody with a gun than a vehicle. Yeah sure drunk driving is incredibly dangerous and stupid and costs lives, but comparing a gun to a car is a stupid, cherry picking argument. Stop it, it's not funny and it's not helping the gun argument.

[MichiganVote]

57. You like me don't ya'? Its ok, a lot of people like me. I don't ask for it. Just happens.

[TorchTheWitch]

52. why does that make her irresponsible???

Having mental health issues doesn't instantly make one either suicidal or homicidal. Clearly she believed he was neither since not a soul who knew him best had any idea whatsoever that he could be either or both. She also knew through experience that he handled and used guns perfectly responsibly many times right up until the very moment she was murdered. How is it that this woman who loved her son would have kept guns in the house where she lived with her son if she had the slightest tiniest infinitesimal idea that he could be suicidal or homicidal? Just how the hell does that make any sense whatsoever???

I'm getting really tired of this flogging the mentally ill the vast majority of which would never consider using a gun to kill themselves or anyone else. Mental illness encompasses a HUGE spectrum and the only way to know if one's diagnosis includes suicidal or homicidal tendencies is if certain behaviors are displayed which he DIDN'T by every single account of those people who knew him the most. You and so many others here are blaming this woman for not being clairvoyant since this incident was the one and only time he ever displayed any kind of aggression or violent tendencies. And there has been infinitely more blaming here of a VICTIM of the incident than there has been of the very person who actually DID IT. HE was the one who committed this atrocious act. HE was the one who hid his worst demons from everyone else and from the very people who would have been the most desperate to want to help him. HE was the one responsible for what HE did yet DU is saturated in mommy blaming a VICTIM of what HE did. God fucking dammit, I want a reasonable explanation for that.

But I'm not going to get that because I already know what the explanation is though it's is anything but reasonable. Because the weapons used to commit this horrendous act were owned by her. That's IT. Is is more important to so many people here to blame not the person who actually DID the act but the person who simply owned the weapons that were used to do it because in yours and their minds ANYONE that owns a gun is a dangerous gun nut with zero responsibility in their use and storage, and you and they are so adamant about such an unreasonable opinion that people have been running all over DU flat out MAKING SHIT UP about this woman that has no basis in fact whatsoever like she's a "gun nut" or a kooky survivalist which NO ONE who knew her has ever claimed. What those people that knew her HAVE said is that she was a wonderful person and a loving and concerned parent who happened to enjoy shooting different types of guns at targets. Hey, I rather like shooting arrows in the direction of bulls eye's occasionally... does that somehow make me an irresponsible overly fearful kooky survivalist nut? Of course not, but ONLY because I use arrows instead of guns according to this ridiculous agenda.

I also have mental illness - mild depression, anxiety that is pretty acute and a phobia that's downright debilitating, so does that instantly make me unacceptable for gun ownership though I personally hate guns, would never shoot one or even want to touch one and won't have them around me at all since their very presence makes me unreasonably nervous? Of course not, and that's because my mental illness has NOTHING whatsoever to do with my ability or my responsibility concerning guns. Yet here you and so many others are instantly believing that because he had an unknown mental illness that absolutely NOBODY had an inkling that it made him either suicidal or homicidal and that somehow mom should have been clairvoyant and ridiculously believed to be at fault for having guns in a home she shared with her utterly unknown to her or anyone else suicidal and homicidal son. This victim blaming of the mother is flat out obvious pure agenda, and you and others are so agenda driven that you're willing to slam a VICTIM of this terrible incident even going so far as to totally make shit up about her. And that is just plain fucking SICKENING.

When was the last time anyone here blamed the mother of a mass murderer who was KNOWN to be a suicidal and homicidal mentally ill person and make up ridiculous crap about them that no person who knew them ever said about them? That's right, NEVER. And why? Because they didn't own the guns that their mass murdering son used but DID know their son was violently mentally ill.

This purely agenda driven shtick of blaming the very dead by her own son's hand VICTIM is as obvious as it is revolting, and every one here doing it should be fucking ashamed of yourselves.

[Mr.Bill]

54. Thank you for your thoughtful and eloquent if lengthy post.

I don't care who you are or who lives in or has access in your house. If you have guns, keep them locked up. Simple concept. If you don't, you are irresponsible.

[MichiganVote]

58. He was 20 years old. Making him responsible for his actions under the law.

But of course that's such a simple answer. What am I thinking....

[kestrel91316]

15. If she had a dangerous person in her home and then did NOT secure her guns so that he could not

access them, she is in part responsible.

Gun ownership FAIL. Parenting FAIL. Citizenship FAIL.

Sad that she's dead, but she DID make her own bed.

[MichiganVote]

17. Actually she was shot to death. In her bed. In the face. Four times. Feel better?

[glinda]

23. I thought it was more than four..... in any case....

her head was blown off. I cannot imagine the rage this young man was in. Makes me just sick to my stomach.

[MichiganVote]

24. He may not have wanted her to live with what he was about to do.

Truth stranger than fiction sometimes.

[kestrel91316]

37. Oh, yes, I'm sure he was actually a compassionate and caring person.

[glinda]

44. not

either because he could not be or chose not to be

[kestrel91316]

53. I was being sarcastic.

[glinda]

56. I know....

there is a "sarcasm" icon though to use. I know you were being sarcastic. Someone else might not know though. Just a heads up.

[kestrel91316]

36. I don't feel good about any of this. But SHE set the situation up. What other outcome

could a person possibly expect?

She taught her son to worship guns as problem-solvers, apparently. And then provided access and training.

[Zoeisright]

45. Yeah. That's the point.

"Reasonable" gun owners, if such a thing is possible, are just as much a threat as the whack jobs who hunker down in the wilderness with ammo. There is NO WAY to be responsible with these weapons.

Thanks for proving the anti-gun point.

[Bonobo]

3. Yup. I made the same point in an OP yesterday.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021996702

[joeunderdog]

38. And here's another...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1999829

[Bonobo]

41. Sadly, some are in denial. nt

[undeterred]

4. Even before that.

The glorification of these school mass murders, however unintentional, also propagates more of them. Before Columbine nobody could really imagine such a thing. Now there seems to be a copycat element in every single mass shooting. And look how much detail they give about this shooting. More than we really need to know.

[MichiganVote]

11. Acutally th worst was in Bath Michigan. Home to the GOP who wants guns in schools today.

[Walk away]

5. We need to abolish the 2nd Amendment.

Guns should be a privilege not a right. We should have to meet an exacting criteria in order to own ONE. That is it. What more is there to talk about?

[rhett o rick]

8. Most amendment have been interpreted to meet today's standards. The 2nd

Amendment needs to be interpreted to mean that it doesnt make individuals owning guns a right.

[thucythucy]

25. Which is precisely how the Court interpreted the 2nd Amendment

prior to its rightward lurch in the 1970s and 1980s.

In 1939 the Court unanimously agreed with solicitor general Robert H. Jackson, who wrote that the Second Amendment grants a right "that is not one which may be used for private purposes but only one which exists where the arms are borne in the militia or some other military organization provided for by law and intended for the protection of the state."

Local, state, and federal governments under this interpretation had sweeping power to regulate guns.

It wasn't until the Nixon, Reagan, and Bush appointees became the majority that the current ass-backwards interpretation was applied. It's every bit as warped as Bush v. Gore and Citizens United, and hopefully it will be reversed, and soon.

[rhett o rick]

43. Yes, I agree. nm

[derby378]

20. DC V. HELLER

Deal with it. Gun ownership in America is a right, not a privilege - a right that carries, like free speech, certain inherent responsibilities.

[glinda]

47. Thirty-five or six Red States States will vote against that one....

An amendment to replace it is doomed to failure. Maybe the only hope is stronger regulation by Feds, licensing, regulate sales of ammo, background checks by gun show peeps, etc...ban assault weapons and 30 round clips for them and bring in the Brady Bill.

[HockeyMom]

7. Have you watched any of the Survivalist shows?

My husband watches them. How they prepare for the coming disaster, building underground bunkers, boobie trapping woods, hoarding food, arsenal of guns? AND teaching their young children how to "survive". They TERRIFY me with their sicko mentality. I saw one where a father was teaching his kids how to shoot. They were in the woods shooting animals for the pelts and food. The boy of about 8 was refusing to shoot, and was crying. The father was telling hm he had to learn to be a MAN because his very SURVIVAL depended on it.

It was HORRIBLE and I had to leave the room. What SICK TV shows. What is this little boy going to be like when HE is 20 years old?

[Initech]

18. I've seen Doomsday Preppers - those people are certified nutjobs.

Of course most reality shows take things to extremes, but these people are insane.

[Skittles]

28. people watching these sick shows are a big problem too

just saying

[GoCubsGo]

10. Yep.

Expect Limbaugh and his ilk to be in overdrive with the hateful fear-mongering tomorrow. How many people who are already on the edge will they push over it with their fear-mongering and lies over this incident? As others have already mentioned in this thread, the crazy paranoiacs who listen to them are already having a run on the gun dealers.

[Initech]

21. It's already begun.

Fundie nutbags like Mike Huckabee and the American Family Association have been driving fear with "the reason why we have violence in schools is that there's no prayer allowed" straw man argument. So that just goes to further my point. I've got plenty of butter for tomorrow to watch those assholes try to spin this.

[Faryn Balyncd]

19. the media is the problem

[RKP5637]

29. MSM started licking their chops after 9/11 about all of the profits they would make! And it's never

stopped, and MSM will make a tremendous profit after this recent tragedy. It's a vicious cycle.

[FarCenter]

30. Irony is the MSM concern for how the shooting will affect children nationwide, a problem they caused

[libdem4life]

33. We need to copy the system we created for the privilege-based ownership and use of automobiles.

Every single one must be registered, maintained, taxed, insured, road worthy, used only for legitimate purposes or forfeited and a new federal agency created as a substitute for the corporately owned and operated NRA.

We even have the gasoline industry...the equivalent of ammo...regulated, taxed and corporatized. And we're no more getting rid of guns than we will automobiles. Heck, guns have been here a lot longer than the gas guzzlers.

And the Media, it's not going anywhere, either. Let's use it. Obama just led the way.

[truebluegreen]

35. If it bleeds, it leads.

Watch Bowling for Columbine. Watch Canadian TV news, as contrasted with ours. And it goes without saying that Fux News is paranoia on steriods.

Spend all your time scaring the crap out of people and they will do scary things.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, and supplies endless material for "news" programs that need to turn a profit.

[Initech]

50. Yup exactly, scare the crap out of people 24/7 and it only leads to bad things.

[Taverner]

59. There is no single cause

You are just as right as those calling for more gun control