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Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:21 PM

Y'know...

Last edited Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:58 PM - Edit history (1)

I've been on this forum for eleven and a half years. For a variety of reasons, that enormous 4,000-days-and-more body of experience makes me want to believe the best about DU, because I love this place for reasons it would take another 4,000 days to explain.

The fact that a pre-school-level discussion on rape and the existence of certain self-evident truths regarding what women in America (yes, even today!) must endure is still necessary on this forum is a cold-water-in-the-face moment for me.

When I posted a picture of a woman saying that her school is teaching her how to avoid rape, instead of teaching everyone not to rape, I simply expected any replies to be of the "Yeah," "Truth," or "Right on" variety...because I want to believe the best of DU.

Most of the thread turned into a fight. There's a whole other thread on the same picture that turned into a fight.

The fact that the picture posted ACTUALLY NEEDS A FUCKING EXPLANATION AND DEFENSE around here is tremendously revealing, and equally depressing.

To those who have stood this particular watch on DU: OK. I get it. I'm sick about it.

God fucking damn it.

For reference, the picture in question:

197 replies, 25771 views

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Arrow 197 replies Author Time Post
Reply Y'know... (Original post)
WilliamPitt Nov 2012 OP
myrna minx Nov 2012 #1
MotherPetrie Nov 2012 #2
noamnety Nov 2012 #3
Tree-Hugger Nov 2012 #157
ananda Nov 2012 #4
Victor_c3 Nov 2012 #34
gtar100 Nov 2012 #84
Robyn66 Nov 2012 #5
Solly Mack Nov 2012 #6
sharp_stick Nov 2012 #7
patrice Nov 2012 #164
NashvilleLefty Nov 2012 #8
ProudProgressiveNow Nov 2012 #9
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #10
LeftInTX Nov 2012 #11
G_j Nov 2012 #12
longship Nov 2012 #13
OriginalGeek Nov 2012 #29
seabeyond Nov 2012 #55
alarimer Nov 2012 #63
longship Nov 2012 #75
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #187
redqueen Nov 2012 #139
Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #14
WilliamPitt Nov 2012 #16
Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #18
WilliamPitt Nov 2012 #32
Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #46
4 t 4 Nov 2012 #180
MadrasT Nov 2012 #15
GitRDun Nov 2012 #17
freshwest Nov 2012 #19
Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #20
FlaGranny Nov 2012 #103
Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #116
FlaGranny Dec 2012 #193
Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #194
FlaGranny Dec 2012 #197
s-cubed Nov 2012 #21
grantcart Nov 2012 #22
seabeyond Nov 2012 #56
YoungDemCA Nov 2012 #78
seabeyond Nov 2012 #111
KansDem Nov 2012 #114
seabeyond Nov 2012 #115
grantcart Nov 2012 #131
grantcart Nov 2012 #128
seabeyond Nov 2012 #132
Marrah_G Nov 2012 #23
freshwest Nov 2012 #24
hifiguy Nov 2012 #144
freshwest Nov 2012 #149
hifiguy Nov 2012 #153
kxs Nov 2012 #25
Jankyn Nov 2012 #26
LisaLynne Nov 2012 #27
1gobluedem Nov 2012 #28
NYC Liberal Nov 2012 #30
BainsBane Nov 2012 #31
Window Nov 2012 #33
BainsBane Nov 2012 #35
RobertEarl Nov 2012 #36
BainsBane Nov 2012 #38
RobertEarl Nov 2012 #42
BainsBane Nov 2012 #45
RobertEarl Nov 2012 #48
BainsBane Nov 2012 #49
WilliamPitt Nov 2012 #60
BainsBane Nov 2012 #69
WilliamPitt Nov 2012 #73
BainsBane Nov 2012 #50
WilliamPitt Nov 2012 #65
mzteris Nov 2012 #76
gateley Nov 2012 #37
SoapBox Nov 2012 #89
Liberal_in_LA Nov 2012 #39
pegasis Nov 2012 #40
nolabear Nov 2012 #41
BainsBane Nov 2012 #44
CherokeeDem Nov 2012 #43
Delmette Nov 2012 #47
Permanut Nov 2012 #51
leftstreet Nov 2012 #52
gollygee Nov 2012 #53
ErikJ Nov 2012 #54
solara Nov 2012 #57
aikoaiko Nov 2012 #58
aikoaiko Nov 2012 #59
WilliamPitt Nov 2012 #64
aikoaiko Nov 2012 #68
tavernier Nov 2012 #61
greatauntoftriplets Nov 2012 #62
Dark n Stormy Knight Nov 2012 #66
WilliamPitt Nov 2012 #80
Dark n Stormy Knight Nov 2012 #102
geckosfeet Nov 2012 #67
libdem4life Nov 2012 #70
Gregorian Nov 2012 #71
ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #72
riderinthestorm Nov 2012 #74
WilliamPitt Nov 2012 #81
Bonobo Nov 2012 #77
WilliamPitt Nov 2012 #82
Bonobo Nov 2012 #86
WilliamPitt Nov 2012 #88
Fridays Child Nov 2012 #90
LadyHawkAZ Nov 2012 #91
Taverner Nov 2012 #92
BainsBane Nov 2012 #100
grantcart Nov 2012 #129
Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #190
YoungDemCA Nov 2012 #79
kentuck Nov 2012 #83
cry baby Nov 2012 #85
yardwork Nov 2012 #87
tonybgood Nov 2012 #93
Gore1FL Nov 2012 #94
The Doctor. Nov 2012 #99
Gore1FL Nov 2012 #155
The Doctor. Nov 2012 #181
Gore1FL Nov 2012 #185
The Doctor. Dec 2012 #195
BainsBane Nov 2012 #101
Gore1FL Nov 2012 #152
LanternWaste Nov 2012 #174
Gore1FL Nov 2012 #184
Chorophyll Nov 2012 #106
Gore1FL Nov 2012 #151
Chorophyll Nov 2012 #162
seabeyond Nov 2012 #167
lumberjack_jeff Nov 2012 #95
Chorophyll Nov 2012 #107
lumberjack_jeff Nov 2012 #125
Gormy Cuss Nov 2012 #143
BlancheSplanchnik Nov 2012 #145
Chorophyll Nov 2012 #165
lumberjack_jeff Nov 2012 #166
Chorophyll Nov 2012 #175
lumberjack_jeff Nov 2012 #176
Gore1FL Nov 2012 #159
Chorophyll Nov 2012 #163
Gore1FL Nov 2012 #183
BlancheSplanchnik Nov 2012 #96
JDPriestly Nov 2012 #97
The Doctor. Nov 2012 #98
TorchTheWitch Nov 2012 #104
BlancheSplanchnik Nov 2012 #146
Chorophyll Nov 2012 #105
Eyes of the World Nov 2012 #108
Marrah_G Nov 2012 #113
WilliamPitt Nov 2012 #117
Marrah_G Nov 2012 #118
grantcart Nov 2012 #130
Dawgs Nov 2012 #124
BlancheSplanchnik Nov 2012 #147
lumberjack_jeff Nov 2012 #126
LanternWaste Nov 2012 #177
Zorra Nov 2012 #156
sufrommich Nov 2012 #109
BlancheSplanchnik Nov 2012 #148
bettyellen Dec 2012 #191
marble falls Nov 2012 #110
TahitiNut Nov 2012 #112
freebrew Nov 2012 #119
hootinholler Nov 2012 #120
Dustlawyer Nov 2012 #121
yardwork Nov 2012 #122
Marrah_G Nov 2012 #135
plcdude Nov 2012 #123
Still Sensible Nov 2012 #127
malthaussen Nov 2012 #133
salinen Nov 2012 #134
mike_c Nov 2012 #136
redqueen Nov 2012 #137
WilliamPitt Nov 2012 #138
The Traveler Nov 2012 #140
redqueen Nov 2012 #142
BlancheSplanchnik Nov 2012 #150
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #189
The Traveler Nov 2012 #141
morningfog Nov 2012 #154
patrice Nov 2012 #160
patrice Nov 2012 #158
Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2012 #161
forestpath Nov 2012 #168
Lilma Nov 2012 #169
ZombieHorde Nov 2012 #170
seabeyond Nov 2012 #171
ZombieHorde Nov 2012 #179
DaveJ Nov 2012 #172
seabeyond Nov 2012 #178
femrap Nov 2012 #173
Butterbean Nov 2012 #182
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #186
prete_nero Dec 2012 #188
NashvilleLefty Dec 2012 #192
VOX Dec 2012 #196

Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:35 PM

1. Thank you.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:38 PM

2. I missed the first two threads. So let me say now. TRUTH. K&R

 

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:39 PM

3. Thank you for getting it.

A few years back, I had an argument here about whether something was or wasn't "legitimate rape."

The woman was forcibly held down by two people, the first raped her while the other helped restrain her, and that first guy pled guilty to rape. The second then proceeded to rape her, and told her (after holding her down for the first rape, mind you) that she could say stop if she wanted. She froze and complied. Then said stop. DU was outraged - because isn't that JUST like a woman, to say yes, then change her mind mid act and cry rape if the man doesn't stop right away.

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Response to noamnety (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:10 PM

157. That makes me want to vomit. nt

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:39 PM

4. Thanks for sticking up for women!

We want our allies strong and happy.

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Response to ananda (Reply #4)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:08 PM

34. I don't know why every man isn't an ally in feminism

we all have mothers, grandmothers, aunts, nieces, daughters, wives, etc that we love and whom the last thing we'd want to see happen to them is for them to be hurt or taken advantage of. I don't get why 100% of people aren't on board with most of the feminist points.

Honestly, with the above in mind, I don't even get why there needs to be a feminism. So much of it should be automatic - kind of like gay rights. There just shouldn't be a struggle. But there is.

I remember laughing when this big tough army guy that I had an ROTC scholarship with enrolled in a series of feminist theory classes. Well, he was right. I ended up marrying a hardcore feminist and I have two daughters. They have greatly enlightened me as to how biased our society really is towards a middle class straight white male like me. In fact, I realize that I have such an advantage in our society that I hardly am able to see it (if that makes any sense). Hey, I want my daughters to be able to be all that they can be in life. I fully embrace the feminist struggle and I will do everything I can do to ensure that they can be just as successful as I am.

Obama did a great job in his second debate when he answered that college-aged woman when she posed her question regarding feminism. Feminism is a middle class issue and an issue that belongs to all Americans. When women are equal in every aspect, our middle class families will all share in their prosperity. If my wife could, on average, make the same amount of money for doing the same job as a man, we would all benefit and America would be stronger.



(I hope I make sense, I've been drinking a little too much this evening....)

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Response to Victor_c3 (Reply #34)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:30 PM

84. Perfect sense. Right on.

I have two daughters. What makes them any less deserving of recompense for their efforts? Makes no sense to me at all that they should be paid less or respected less... except that unfortunately there are some real assholes out there that are in dire need of an education. We, as men, are deeply fortunate to live in a time and place in which feminism is around.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:41 PM

5. Great job Will!

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:42 PM

6. K&R

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:43 PM

7. One of the hazards of an anonymous

message board, or more or less anonymous anyway, is that idiots and plain old assholes are free to spout their drivel and hide behind the anonymity.

On edit: I forgot to add that I agree with you on the entire post.

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Response to sharp_stick (Reply #7)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:39 PM

164. +1

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:45 PM

8. Thank you, Will. Although this is supposed to be a "discussion" board,

as you say, there are some things that should be self-evident and shouldn't need discussion.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:47 PM

9. K&R nt

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:47 PM

10. disrespect for women exists everywhere even in the democratic party and

even at DU.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:48 PM

11. That sign is powerful. It says it all. Thanks, I didn't see the other thread.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:50 PM

12. if one needs an explanation to this photo

then they are probably a danger to others and themselves.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:52 PM

13. I stand with you, Will.

A similar thing happened in the skeptical community last summer, and the war continues to this day. A skeptical conference attendee, a high visibility woman, was propositioned by a guy when they were alone in an elevator. She posted about the experience on her blog and basically said, "Guys, don't do this."

The skeptical blogosphere exploded with all sorts of hateful misogyny.

So, yes. It is still part of our society. No wonder the women are pissed off about it.

I stand with them, too!

Thanks for the post.
R&K

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Response to longship (Reply #13)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:53 PM

29. Speaking for myself as a man and as an athiest

that was embarrassing. Dawkins still owes Skepchick a major apology as far as I know. I don't really need Dawkins to explain atheist stuff to me but before that I did enjoy his writings and his passion for atheism. That whole thing soured me on him and probably for the rest of my life.


And thanks for the OP, WP. It simply can't be said often enough.

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Response to longship (Reply #13)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:52 PM

55. we had quiet a few men that sided with dawson. nt

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Response to longship (Reply #13)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:06 PM

63. It's gotten worse

There's a lot of icky people in the skeptical movement, I'm sorry to say. It's not just the clueless, who maybe don't realize how pervasive the harassment is, but there are men and some women who belittle those who complain about the atmosphere.

I'd thought about going to TAM, but after what happened this year, I never will.

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Response to alarimer (Reply #63)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:22 PM

75. I know. PZ Myers still posts about it regularly. nt

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Response to alarimer (Reply #63)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:43 AM

187. I'm a guy and a Skeptic and I was shocked by that misogyny.

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Response to longship (Reply #13)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:04 PM

139. Thank you. nt

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:59 PM

14. you sound shocked Mr. Pitt...

did you honestly believe that self-identifying as a Liberal/Progressive Democrat somehow imbued everyone with higher standards of morality? A greater social conscience? More respect for women?

I just took a look in at that earlier thread...seems about the normal distribution of those who believe that females have no responsibility to keep themselves safe and those who think rape is a guy thing, completely attributable to societal norms and can be curtailed by simply telling young men not to rape. Absurdities, both.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #14)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:04 PM

16. I'm a man

...and I carry my own invisible backpack of privileges, absurdities and glaring blind spots.

This we call evolution.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #16)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:23 PM

18. LOL....

As do women sir, as do women.

I have always enjoyed your writings...

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #18)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:05 PM

32. (((hug)))

Thanks.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #32)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:34 PM

46. You're most certainly welcome....

And thanks for the hug...

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #16)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:25 PM

180. So very sorry Will,

but get your head out of your ass! this site jumped the shark a Very Long time ago, Very Long. The people left are...... not helping!

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:00 PM

15. Thank you. n/t

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:20 PM

17. I did not see the other threads

but I would say they should teach both! My son is a freshman at a big university out west. He's already helped out a couple friends who had been rufeed (not sure I spelled that right), IN HIS FIRST SEMESTER!

I think teaching women away from home for the first time how to keep them self safe is good. Both victims in my son's case had left their friends. From what my son tells me, there are a fair number of kids at school whose sole purpose is to party and get girls. My guess is these are the kids who are most dangerous to young women and the ones who drop out first. I would also say that this slice of college kids has been there forever and will always be a part of college life.

There also DEFINITELY needs to be someone telling the boys to HAVE SOME FRIGGIN RESPECT! These young men who treat women like that must have brutal role models. Just as some of the women need the education, those boys need someone to tell them:

You are not a child anymore, you are a man.
Your presence at the university is to build YOUR house, your folks already built theirs, it is your turn!
Your performance in the class will determine what kind of house you'll physically build, that means something but is not the most important thing.
Your performance OUTSIDE the class means the most! How you deal with your new world and the people in it will go a long way to deciding just what it's like to live in your house! No matter what it looks like!
Is your house going to be a place where women fear for their safety? Where the word "no" means nothing? Where women can be drugged, tricked, or worse yet forced to have sex against their will?
So think long and hard about what kind of house you are building here, because what you do here will follow you through your whole life! YOUR future kids are depending on you!

Well that's my two cents!

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Response to GitRDun (Reply #17)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:29 PM

19. I'd say that was worth more than two cents. Very well said.

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Response to GitRDun (Reply #17)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:33 PM

20. You give good value for the money....

But here's the thing....Respect is something that must be earned, it cannot be demanded. There are few people in life who get respect simply because they are. Perhaps we need to teach something else? Like boundaries, personal space, or criminal behavior???

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #20)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:36 AM

103. Some respect does not

need to be earned. It is the kind of respect that should be taught from the earliest age - as a toddler. It is the respect one must learn for the property and bodies of everyone else on the planet. It is taught by parental example and seemingly inconsequential little "lessons" to the youngest children so that they grow up with it. A child raised this way has little chance of growing up to be a rapist, a robber, or a murderer. The lessons needed to teach this kind of respect for others are gentle and nearly unnoticeable. These lessons cannot take place with coercion or force because respect cannot be learned thay way.

Funny thing I noticed is that by the time a child stops crying at every little disappointment or scraped knee - that is the time when you can see that the "lessons" have worked and you have an unselfish child on your hands and, as parents, you have succeeded in raising a caring, respectful human being.

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Response to FlaGranny (Reply #103)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:20 AM

116. You are speaking in generalities....

You can teach "respect" as a general principle, you cannot teach anyone to respect an individual who doesn't deserve it, nor should you. I remember too well Adam Walsh's father talking about having raised his son to respect adults...so when an adult told the 8-year-old Adam to "come with me" he did as he was told.

My son is caring and considerate. Thus, throughout his years in college and law school, if his date had too much too drink he took her home and went on to his own bed. Some of that was caring and consideration, but some of it was from having seen the grief caused when a drunk frat brother took an equally drunk young women home and followed her into her bedroom thinking he was welcomed.

There are no easy answers and certainly no guarantees. The prisons are full of convicts who were raised to know better.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #116)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:53 AM

193. I was

speaking the truth. I may have generalized a bit, but I wasn't trying to write a manual on the subject. What I'm discussing has nothing to do with whether someone "deserves" respect. Any child of mine better respect the neighbor down the street, even if that neighbor is a bastard.

Whether or not a person was raised to know better is a matter of opinion. I know people who think they're raising their kids right, but what I see them doing is arguing with toddlers, not teaching them respect for others' property, teaching them to be brats, and on and on. A very religious family across the street sent their young grandkids about 8 or 9 years old to a neighbors yard to take fruit off his fruit tree. Told them that they couldn't take the fruit unless they had the owner's permission. They said their grandmother said it was okay and actually refused to stop until I told them I would have to call the police. Next time those people saw me they screamed at me for not being christian or some such nonesense. Bet you anything those people and all their friends thought they were raising good kids, when they were actually teaching them they didn't need to respect property and could take whatever they felt they deserved or wanted. That neighbor with the fruit tree complained every season about someone stealing his fruit until I caught them in the act and very carefully explained to them that they should not help themselves and should always ask permission of the owner before taking anything. That is respect.

I'm talking about a different kind of respect than you are (which is what I said above - another, different kind of respect). It is there whether a person is worthy or not. If that's a generality, then it is what it is.

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Response to FlaGranny (Reply #193)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:24 AM

194. 'Semantics' rears it's ugly head once again....



What you call respect, I call consideration and good manners.

Did you carefully explain things to those children before of after you threatened to call the police on 8 and 9-year-olds? Wouldn't it have been better to walk across the street and let the adults know that the owner of the fruit tree has been upset over the missing fruit?
While my own children would never have dared help themselves to that fruit without the owner's permission, I would have spoken to the parents and not threatened the children. You see, I think even children deserve courtesy and consideration. If I had a neighbor like you I rather suspect my children would have always been polite to you, but they would never have had any respect for you.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #194)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 03:30 PM

197. Didn't find out who the kids were until later,

but, yes, I did explain carefully to them why they should not take things without permission of the owner. I asked if they had permission. They said that their grandmother sent them to pick the fruit. They would not stop arguing with me. My neighbor had been having his fruit stolen every year. He was so angry about it, he finally cut the tree down so no one could steal the fruit. I only told them I'd have to call the police when they argued and refused to leave. I can't believe they were so "DISRESPECTFUL" as to argue with a strange adult about taking things that did not belong to them. So I told them they must stop or I would have to call the police. Do you think I should have allowed them to continue to steal, when they refused to listen? In fact, when they first saw my car coming around the corner, they actually ran to hide behind a bush, so they knew they shouldn't be taking the fruit.

You seem to be a quite nasty person yourself to say such a thing about me, who you do not know at all. I watch out for my neighbor's property when they aren't home, just like they do for me. Knowing nothing about me and deciding you would never have respect for me - well, what does that say about you?

I have no idea why you wanted to start a fight with me about such a simple thing as there being more than one kind of respect. Sorry you don't think I'm using the right terminology, but I'm done with you. You are on ignore, unless you'd like to argue the differences between dark blue and navy.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:36 PM

21. Every woman, every day lives with the possibility of rape.

Most of us are able to keep fear from defining us, but some of our sisters have suffered horrible physical and psychological pain. It is not a joke. Thank you for posting this.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:38 PM

22. I really don't get it,


When I left the US in 1978 there seemed to be a rather wide consensus among thinking people (including most Republicans that I knew) that more sensitivity and awareness was needed concerning how women have been objectified and victimized on a rather regular basis.

Coming back 20 years ago it was as if Phyllis Schaffley was in charge.

It's a mystery to me. Seems like a pretty clear cut issue to me.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1240172848

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Response to grantcart (Reply #22)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:57 PM

56. i hear ya. this is what i have been saying. 80's we were going along fine. something happened in

the 90's. now, the effort to move forward stopped and there was a real push to step back. 2000 with bushco was really a huge as step back as a society. but, absolutely. somewhere along the way, men decided they did not want to let go of the dominance.

something happened. and i have been doing a lot of reading and thinking to try to see if others see that. i havent found what i am looking for yet. i have ideas.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #56)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:10 PM

78. Perhaps it was the Contract on America?

After all, who better to represent right-wing "family values" than Newt Gingrich?

The late 80s and early 90s, for what it's worth, also is the time period when right-wing talk raido a la Rush Limbaugh exploded. No one ever mistook Rush Limbaugh for a feminist.

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Response to YoungDemCA (Reply #78)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:27 AM

111. i think so. because i know with the gingrich was the start of the feel that i was getting.

i think it could have been a number of things. our media started really promoting the girl gone wild, women things... mentality. girls started falling into that. the rw bullshit. money was still good though. i think those are a couple factors.

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Response to YoungDemCA (Reply #78)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:13 AM

114. You have a point regarding the 80s and 90s...

I'm old enough to remember when if you called out a specific woman on the nation's airwaves by calling her a "slut" and suggesting she offer her sex videos for all to see, you were gone.

Overnight. No "ifs," "ands," or "buts" about it.

Now the state you herald from will erect a bronze statute in your honor!

It all seemed to begin in the 1980s...

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Response to KansDem (Reply #114)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:17 AM

115. exactly. 70's both genders were working to meld together in respect it seemed.

i grew up in a time where it felt more equal and compatible/comparable than any time. mid 90's and beyond it started shifting again. like to gain the dominance back.

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Response to KansDem (Reply #114)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:54 AM

131. yep, left in 78 and it seemed settled.



The emphasis wasn't on the listener to give the speaker the widest consideration of possible interpretation, the emphasis was on the speaker to make sure that they weren't ambigious on what you meant.


If you were in college you learned that lesson if you ever wanted to get a date.


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Response to seabeyond (Reply #56)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:43 AM

128. well the other thing that did happen was that pornography became much more ubiquitous


even mainstream.

I am not suggesting that one was a cause for the other.


It could be that they are both effects from some deeper sea change.


Things just changed. Its hard to notice when you are here every day but when you leave for 20 years and come back the change is so significant that you feel like a visitor in a strange land.


Also there was a weird move to the right politically. When I left G Gordon Liddy was the most hated person in America and people generally wished he had gotten a much longer prison sentence. When I returned he was given a first amendment award for free speech when he detailed to his listeners how the most effective way to kill a federal officer was to shoot them in the throat because that was the only part of the body that didn't have kevlar.

I went to a fairly conservative protestant college that was fairly liberal politically. The culture there was much more progressive in terms of women's issues than it is here. Seems to me like we are arguing issues that were settled in junior high.

Of course it also may have to do with the anonymity of the internet. If you talked that way in public you not only would have been ostracized you wouldn't be hooking up with anybody that year. I wonder if these comments are made at home in front of their wives, girl friends and daughters.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #128)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:55 AM

132. yes... to those things also. and you have a two parent working home more often now

or a one parent working home. that just makes raising children that much harder.

i absolutely believe the porn issue is effecting our society, but, about everyone knows i think that. they may not really know what i think, because generally i get accused of, instead of a conversation.

i also agree that the net has allowed like thinkers to gather and have unacceptable behavior reinforced for them.

i have said in the past it is like a perfect storm.

all of this. all new. we have put our children in the middle of a vast experiment of the unknown like never before in history.

i have told my kids, so many of my parenting decision have been going back in years, and adopting that parenting because today..... there is so much new we are giving our kids.

one thing i saw all while raising kids, and i listen to people on du say, we want our kids to be all things, know all things at four. we do not allow, or get, that it takes years... of teaching, for them to understand. we cannot expect little adults at four.

another thing i have told kids. on the one hand we shelter them from all things. things, keeping them close and inside, no jobs at young age. all the things that teach responsibility and character we dont give them.

but on the other hand we treat them like adults, leave them alone, to a computer with a world of mess, and no monitoring. tv in bedrooms where they have access to all.

it seems a flip flop in parenting.

teach them how to be responsible, have character, then let them out in the world so they can digest the real world with a solid foundation.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:38 PM

23. I find it saddening and frustrating

I just don't know what to say beyond that. After 8 years I am left shaking my head and just relegating people to ignore because alerting does nothing.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:40 PM

24. Will, I try to stay out of this, usually don't do Meta on it. If I do, I usually end up deleting it.

As a female, I've seen this country work from behind, go forward and back again. I'm not sure it will ever really go forward again in my lifetime.

Obama has done all he could from the top, but plenty of the grassroots are well entertained and satisfied with degrading each other. Not just women, but anyone for a cheap thrill.

It seemed like DU2 was more civil than any place on this particular subject than other places. I grew up being told with vehemence and mockery, I would not get to do this or that I had an inclination to do, because of my gender.

As the years went by, various discrimination caused me to have a few triggers, but I realized that life wasn't fair in the way I was taught it should be. After a while, in some venues you simply accept the discrimination, not because it's right, but because you can't spend your entire life on it.

There are ways around discrimination in groups, but since the GOP Tea Party got into office in 2010, the terrifying reversal of women's rights is now a part of our landscape. Few are outraged about that. The best ideals don't always win. Yet we go on doing what we can, as we have no choice.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #24)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:15 PM

144. I was in college and grad school for most of the 1980s.

Last edited Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:07 PM - Edit history (1)

Things were clearly different then, and decidedly for the better. The neanderthalification of a lot of younger men seems to have begun in the late 1980s and early 1990s and definitely predates the rise of the Intertubes. IMO it definitely accelerated after the rise of reichwing talk radio in the 1990s. Combine that with the celebration of "young male as imbecile" in popular culture and the devolution isn't surprising.

Hell's bells, I was in a fraternity my first couple of years in college and the atmosphere there was that Certain Things Were Beyond the Pale and Not Done. Ever. But then my frat was one of the first to take drastic steps against hazing, so maybe it was an exception. The "hazing" we underwent as pledges consisted of having to sleep on the floor of the TV room for a week and being banned from the house between 7:30 and dinnertime.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #144)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:56 PM

149. I was in college in the late sixties and early seventies. It was about liberation and equality.

The circles I ran with out of choice, shunned those who acted the way that young men seem to have been taught since the troglogdytes like Rush got on the airways. The stupidification of males (and females) on television played a major role. It became the new 'cool' because of the lulz. A lot of dreckt is packaged in 'humor' like Rush has always said.

The idea that television is merely entertainment is not taking into account the power of moving images, sound and acting. Those things teach the brain quickly and engage the limbic system and bypass buffeing and judgment. The use of that in a negative fashion is the victory of Fox News.

I agree totally with what you say. In my day, the neanderthals were in retreat and we made progress. The beginning of the end of that was when the media used all those tricks by the GOP machine. The televangelists became a force to be reckoned with in politics. Nothing as dumbing down and restricting reason as religion.

We lost Carter and the legal framework that was moving us forward. You didn't work in that era, and I am glad to see that you turned out as progressive as you did! Thanks for your views here.


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Response to freshwest (Reply #149)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:06 PM

153. I'm a little older than those dates might indicate.

I didn't start college until I was 24, in 1981. I spent the 1970s as a pot-smoking "freak" - I was too young to be a hippie - listening to the most out-there music I could find and playing bass guitar. Stoner culture in those days was surprisingly egalitarian, but dopers have always tended to be pretty laid-back, whether male or female. Guys tried to have sex with girls, but there were no roofies, date-rape drugs or the like, and guys who were too aggressive were definitely frowned upon by their peers. It was more like the hippie daze in that respect.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:43 PM

25. How true.

I absolutely loved the shift in perspective the sign/picture offered - I know I was never told what was and wasn't considered rape when I was entering college (I am sure I would have been shocked to learn stuff I thought to be fairly common activity among some guys was actually rape). I had hoped things would have been different today, as I had assumed college administrations to be more enlightened - and some probably are.

In any case, I agree with the author, and was also quite shocked reading the comments to the other, initial, posts, as they certainly went in a direction I never expected. I was (once again) embarrased to be a male.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:45 PM

26. Thank you, WilliamPitt ...

...for continuously telling it like it is.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:49 PM

27. As always, thank you, for being a voice of reason

I took a long break from DU, came back just recently and now ... yeah, I'm sort of wondering ...

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:49 PM

28. Thank you, Will

I was as shocked as you; didn't trust myself to post a response.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:59 PM

30. At this point very little is shocking to me.

Sad.

K&R

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:01 PM

31. I wish I could say I am surprised

But I'm not. The sexism on DU has gotten slightly better, only because more women are calling men out over it. But ingrained attitudes don't go away easily.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:05 PM

33. Amen! K/R

Mr. Pitt.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:11 PM

35. Okay, I read some of the comments in one of those threads

And am too furious to read any more.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:11 PM

36. Don't rape is the right teaching

And it needs to be repeated amongst men whenever the subject arises.

Same with launching wars, or building more nukes, or making slaves of someone, or hurting kids or anyone, or, or, or....

We at DU might be evolving but the rest of the world doesn't seem to be.

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #36)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:13 PM

38. Too many at DU are not evolving

That is Will's point.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #38)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:27 PM

42. What should we do with them?

And what about all the other deadly things SOME DUers profess to be in favor of?

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #42)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:33 PM

45. Read the threads for yourself.

That is more instructive than my summarizing them for you.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #45)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:41 PM

48. Is educating them ok?

Or should we just string them up by their balls?

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #48)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:43 PM

49. Castration

Isn't that what you want to hear?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #49)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:04 PM

60. Derp.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #60)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:08 PM

69. I hope you realize

I wasn't serious.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #69)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:45 PM

73. Hence

Derp.

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #48)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:45 PM

50. I am continually amused

By the weakness of men so easy threatened.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #50)


Response to RobertEarl (Reply #48)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:29 PM

76. Education is tried over and over.

Some won't hear it. Some can't hear it. Some refuse to hear it. Some hear it and don't give a sh*t.

Don't string them up.

But IMO, they don't belong on a liberal forum if that's the way they think. Just my opinion, though. YMMV.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:13 PM

37. Everything turns into a fight on DU these days, and whiners

alerting on inconsequential posts. Who the fuck are these people?

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Response to gateley (Reply #37)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:43 PM

89. Agreed.

Good post WilliamPitt.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:16 PM

39. I didn't bother to read all the posts in your original thread because I knew things would go

south quickly. I didn't want to read a lot of anti-women crap.

Thanks for the thread though.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:21 PM

40. Is this male or female?

I find it interesting that it could be a male or female holding that sign. Discussion of both topics is worthwhile with both sexes. Rape (and all of the "humorous" references to it) should not be tolerated. I find it disheartening too that so many television and movie plots involve violence toward women. Let me change that previous adjective to sickening. So YES! I don't understand why there would be disagreement.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:24 PM

41. So, serious question. What on earth do you think is going on here?

I have thoughts about it, but wonder what yours are. (Wm and everyone who wants to really chime in, no to fight but with an honest and humble thought).

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Response to nolabear (Reply #41)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:31 PM

44. Rape and sexism are not bound by political ideology

And just as many Democratic men are defensive about the issue as Republicans, though they may articulate it differently. I've known men who claimed to be feminists who were controlling and thought they should be able to tell women how to dress and not to wear makeup. I remember talking to a woman who ran a woman's center at a Brazilian university (this was in the 1990s). She said, "if you meet a man who claims to be a feminist, run."

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:30 PM

43. I am not surprised...

Horrified, but not surprised...especially after seeing some of the diatribe that I have read while serving on a DU jury. Most of the arguments around here seem to be gender and guns.

I saw your original post, Will, and thought it so powerful that I shared it with my closest friends, who immediately reacted the way you expected people to act.

I have not read the other thread, or the later posts on your original, but I can't see where this statement would be misinterpreted as anything that what it is...the truth.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:37 PM

47. I'm shocked!

I missed your earlier threads, but I hope I would have spoken out against anyone who was disrespectful. The young woman and her sign speaks volumes. Thank you for sharing.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:46 PM

51. Now this, right here, is a great thread.

Thanks WilliamPitt.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:46 PM

52. LOL there are some real assclowns on those threads

Missed it

LOL I'd wager 99.9% of them are GenX and middle aged males completely dependent on their wives and girlfriends, and they'd never, ever even TRY to make sexist comments like that at home.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:47 PM

53. I'm afraid I'm not surprised

There were a few threads ages ago where I was surprised people would disagree with me on a progressive site like DU, but I expect disagreement now, especially about issues regarding rape, sexism, privilege (not just re sexism but other types as well), etc.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:51 PM

54. Need BOTH--lots of rapists arent college students.

Campuses are open to anybody and that means potential rapists that arent even attending school. I would bet that half the women's dates arent even students on campus. So they do need a course to prevent rape. I think every woman should take karate and self-defense classes.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:58 PM

57. I didn't see the other thread. But i will say right now.. Truth!

Amen! Exactly! I hear that!



K & R:

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:59 PM

58. Locking.


This OP is really more appropriate for Meta because it bemoans the current state of DU. I'm locking because it is outside the GD SOP (No whining regardless of how appropriate it may be).

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #58)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:02 PM

59. Unlocking.


There is now a lack of consensus among the hosts.

Carry on.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #58)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:08 PM

64. Try it.





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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #64)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:43 PM

68. All is well.


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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:05 PM

61. The north going Zax and the south going Zax.

They appear in most of the DU posts, at which point every bit of intelligent conversation disintegrates.

Sorry they did that to yours, Will.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:05 PM

62. I hear ya...

Disheartening, isn't it?

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:14 PM

66. I would hope that the explanation for this is that the university finds "Don't Rape" to be a

self-evident message, and that, perhaps anyone of university age who hasn't already received the message, "Don't Rape," won't be affected by a "Don't Rape" lesson at orientation. Teaching women to be aware of perhaps certain areas to avoid, or to see certain behaviors by guys in certain situations as potentially dangerous seems valid.

And now that I've said that, I'd have to say that if someone else said that I'd say, "So what, teach it anyway."

And then I'd hope they'd say, "You know what? You're right. Teach them both."

Well, that was easy.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #66)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:18 PM

80. "Well, that was easy."

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #80)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:27 AM

102. Facepalm because? The rambling tha led to my conclusion or the conclusion itself? Or door number

three?

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:22 PM

67. Third time I have seen it posted here. My take is women on that campus need more than feminism.

And the school administrators should be held liable for being extremely stupid and clueless.

Beyond the DU issue, is the astonishing fact that a university - presumably a major university, an institution of higher learning still wallows in the backwater of blaming victims and enabling rape. And if people are taught this at school, is it any wonder that they continue this mode of thought out in the real world - and on DU?

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:17 PM

70. Don't Rape ... WTH??? May I reframe just a bit ... No Means No. Repeat after me ...

No ... No ... No ... No. No? Go to jail and learn first hand. No.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:40 PM

71. Similar outrage going on here too.

Bo threads get tons of hits, and extremely high priority discussion is virtually allowed to expire and vaporize.

I was feeling like posting a new topic on just what the most important topics are. But it probably wouldn't see the light of day.

Where are our priorities? Is it so close to the election that we are still on a winning high? No. I feel like the internet is going the way of the television. Instead of being used to improve the condition of the human race, it's Leave It To Beaver reruns.

Oh well. Another generation will pay for it.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:43 PM

72. Thank you n/t

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:01 PM

74. Missed the other threads but have lately become VERY discouraged @ women's issues on DU

Thanks for posting this Will.

I know you have always been a progressive on women's issues but isn't it interesting how incredibly clarifying it is once you become a (soon to be) parent of a daughter??

(((hugs)))

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #74)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:21 PM

81. "once you become a (soon to be) parent of a daughter"



God help me...and anyone who messes with my girl.

Yeah. Try me even once.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:29 PM

77. The problem is the "instead of"

Both classes should be taught.

If you don't want a discussion, don't post on a Discussion Board. Simple.

P.S. Will you post ANOTHER OP based on the response to THIS one too? At what point does it become "Meta"?

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #77)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:28 PM

82. Fuck 'Meta'

If I ever really had an issue with something on DU, the absolute last place I would bring it up is Meta.

They should cinch that bag and throw it into the sea. Stuff it in a bottle and send it out with the tide. Put a pillow over its face and give it the mercy it needs.

As stated, 11.5 years here...and Meta is, hands down no contest easy peasy one two threesy the biggest cesspoll shithole forum that has EVER existed on any iteration of DU, ever.

Fact. Period, end of file, turn out the lights when you leave.

I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire right in front of me.

So.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #82)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:32 PM

86. I enjoyed that.

Reminded me of this for some reason:

"We have become a Nazi monster in the eyes of the whole world, a nation of bullies and bastards who would rather kill than live peacefully. We are not just Whores for power and oil, but killer whores with hate and fear in our hearts. We are human scum, and that is how history will judge us. No redeeming social value. Just whores. Get out of our way, or we'll kill you. Who does vote for these dishonest shitheads? Who among us can be happy and proud of having all this innocent blood on our hands? Who are these swine? These flag-sucking half-wits who get fleeced and fooled by stupid little rich kids like George Bush? They are the same ones who wanted to have Muhammad Ali locked up for refusing to kill gooks. They speak for all that is cruel and stupid and vicious in the American character. They are the racists and hate mongers among us; they are the Ku Klux Klan. I piss down the throats of these Nazis. And I am too old to worry about whether they like it or not. Fuck them."

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #86)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:40 PM

88. :)

HST = Win.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #82)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:43 PM

90. Took the words out of my mouth. eom

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #82)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:46 PM

91. Truth n/t

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #82)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:57 PM

92. "I like little things hitting each other!"

 

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #82)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:16 AM

100. Completely agree

It's a cesspool of ugliness.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #82)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:48 AM

129. So Will I would appreciated it if you would stop prevaricating and give us

a clear unambiguous opinion of what you feel about META.


I just hate these mealy mouthed Kabuki responses that are left to wide interpretations.


Do you like Meta or not?

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #82)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:17 PM

190. Like it or not, this thread is CLASSIC meta.

And that post, infinitely moreso.

Complaining that meta is a burning shit-sack that needs to be cinched off of DU?

It doesn't GET any more 'Meta' than that.


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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:14 PM

79. Some people are apologists...

For patriarchy, sexism, sexual violence, and other features of the social hierarchy (including racism, xenophobia, classism, and homophobia).

Furthermore, as you have alluded, it ain't just Republicans or "rabid right-wingers" who are implicated in this.

K&R.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:29 PM

83. Y'know Will...

We have been here a long time and have seen a lot more than most but I cannot explain this.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:31 PM

85. I, too, am surprised by that. nt

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:36 PM

87. Similarly appalling posts in another thread on this as well:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021902170

Some people are determined not to get it.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:06 AM

93. This actually goes much deeper.

The true heart of feminism boils down to a simple truth: women are people. Only someone considered 2nd class would be taught how to avoid something instead of the universal prohibition against rape of anyone. The history of our country has been the struggle to live up to the ideals of liberty and gender equality has always been a part of that struggle. Any educational institution should place the responsibility on the behavior of the individual and not on the victim of a heinous crime.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:15 AM

94. This assumes the incoming freshman are the rapists

I'd like to see the stats on that.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #94)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:50 AM

99. Missed the point.

 

It makes no such assumption as you state.

It trains 'freshmen women' to avoid rape from anyone, not just freshmen men.


Incoming freshmen women are given this advice in order to avoid rape throughout their years there.

Why shouldn't incoming freshmen men be given a 'don't rape' seminar to dissuade them from committing rape throughout their time there too?

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #99)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:10 PM

155. As you state:

It trains 'freshmen women' to avoid rape from anyone, not just freshmen men.

That makes sense. It is weird that such instruction is considered to be bad by the person in the picture.

I have yet to see data that the rapists are students. In my time working on a campus, I have never heard of one student perpetrating a rape there. I have heard of outsiders committing such actions.

I didn't miss the point. I asked for data to demonstrate the rapes were being committed by students.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #155)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:51 PM

181. Well, you kinda suggested that

 


the post asserts that 'freshmen men' were the rapists. My point is simply that it did no such thing. It just suggested training 'freshmen women' to avoid rape. That would be regardless of where the rapist came from.

I agree that they should train all incoming freshmen to avoid rape(ing), not just women.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #181)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:29 PM

185. I think we largely agree

Ultimately, As I look on this picture and the discussion is that the picture itself is intentionally provocative in it's wording.

Here are the words:

I need feminism because
My University teaches
"How to Avoid Getting Raped" instead of

"Don't Rape"

At Freshman Orientation


It uses a non-sequitur. It uses false choice. On top of it all, it is suggests relying on the feminie movement for change is a better than simply putting together a reasonable argument to present to the department of the university.

It would be a much more powerful of a statement if it read:

At Freshman Orientation
My University teaches
"How to Avoid Getting Raped"
It should also teach
"Rape Awareness"
I am going to address this with people who plan At Freshman Orientation.
Doing this is feminism in action




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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #185)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:24 AM

195. Yeah, I like that.

 


Getting into the collective psyche of a school and dropping some good memes and ideas for ferreting out and preventing rape would be much more effective.

It also doesn't single any one gender out as 'being responsible' for rape.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #94)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:21 AM

101. Someone posted some alarming statistics

In the threads referenced in this OP. Those threads are still very active in General Discussion.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #101)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:06 PM

152. I know rape happens on campus.

What percentage of the rapists are students?

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #152)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:16 PM

174. he one posted yesterday that I read had one stat that stood out for me...

The one posted yesterday that I read had one stat that stood out for me...

Close to 10% of all male college students engaged in sex that was unwanted by their partner.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #174)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:16 PM

184. Perhaps a class is indeed warranted.

The self defense class is a good idea however. Every Clery report I have seen has been an off-campus rapist. The picture suggests that simply instructing incoming freshman will solve campus rape.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #94)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:24 AM

106. This is precisely the disconnection that Will is talking about in his OP.

If women have to be taught not to be rape victims, obviously rape is happening on campus somewhere. What is the Big. Fucking. Deal. about teaching an incoming class of freshman boys about what rape is and how to avoid doing it?

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #106)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:05 PM

151. You assume they will be guilty of perpetrating it.

I work on a college campus. I recall ZERO incidents where a campus rape was committed by a student here.

To complain that the University is providing an awareness class for self-defense tips is pretty bizarre.

Suggesting that that the male students are the problem without data to back it up is silly. It's a non-sequitur.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #151)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:32 PM

162. I assume nothing.

But you've never heard of a date-rape on a college campus? Or at a fraternity house?

And even if that were the case, why is it a huge problem to expect incoming freshmen of both genders to have a short lesson in rape prevention? What is the big deal? What's the problem, seriously?

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #162)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:52 PM

167. that is too far out to even kinda believe. every experience, every bit of fact we know is

that is so far from truth.

what position would someone have to hold to NEVER hear of a SINGLE rape on a college campus. totally mind blowing.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:51 AM

95. So, in the absence of a college guidance counselor informing you that raping is wrong...

Who explained it to you? Where do young men denied the privilege of college attain such enlightenment?

The multiple ops you refer to are controversial because they are fundamentally and intrinsically offensive.

But some people will say anything for the heady rush of a "hell yeah".

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #95)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:34 AM

107. If there must be education in "how to avoid getting raped" during freshman orientation,

then rapes are taking place on campus.

Clearly some boys have not been taught. Why put all of the responsibility on the girls?

Why are some men so sensitive about this?

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #107)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:32 AM

125. There are four major problems with the photo.

1) Feminism won't, can't and doesn't promise to, end sexual violence. Given that, defensive life skills are appropriate for young women to learn, and it would be professional malpractice to avoid it.
2) At her college freshman orientation, there were 3 young women for every 2 young men. It would have been a complete waste of all parties time to spend it telling the two young men not to rape.
3) It is entirely predicated on the idea that the two young men are rapists who simply didn't realize that rape is a wrong. If that assumption is wrong, the complaint is entirely without merit.
4) Girls aren't the only ones for whom self-defense is a useful life skill. Young men are at greater risk for violent victimization, and have been forever.

5) It's not all problems; here's a solution. Next year, get 3 boys into the college for every 2 girls, then give the don't rape lecture instead of the girls self defense lecture on orientation day.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #125)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:51 PM

143. Point by point.

Last edited Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:42 PM - Edit history (1)

1) Feminism has and will continue to reduce sexual violence by changing attitudes and eventually laws to make it clear that such behavior is unacceptable whether the perpetrators and victims are male or female. That's wholly separate from the issue of defensive life skills for women.

However, since the latter is the core issue in that photo, why on earth would it be offensive to raise awareness among young men that they have an equal role in preventing sexual violence on campus?

2)That there are more women on campus is utterly irrelevant. See above. But since you mentioned it, when looking at victimization rates among college students the perpetrators of sexual violence are now and always have been mostly male. When the female to male ratio becomes 90:1, you may have a point.

3) It's predicated on the notion that SOME campus men don't know all of the behaviors that constitute rape and that some also don't understand that they can't blame women for the way the dress, how much they party, etc. when it comes to rape. Sad to say, not all men arrive on campus educated in these matters.

4)The issue here is sexual assault, not all violent crime victimization. That's an interesting chart but not relevant to the narrow focus of this discussion.

5)Here's a solution: teach both men and women about rape prevention strategies.

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #143)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:24 PM

145. thank you Gormy Cuss

Mr. Jeff is continually conflating the occurrence of violence in general with the occurrence of sexual assaults, and using that flawed comparison to argue that .....well, that women need to stop speaking up about sexual violence because it's worse for boys. or something.

As far as violence in general, men and boys are at greater risk BECAUSE THEY ENGAGE IN VIOLENCE AND HIGH RISK BEHAVIORS at a greater margin than women and girls.

If ever the phrase, "asking for it" were apropos, this would be it.


Live by the sword, die by the sword, dudes. That too is a famous saying.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #125)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:39 PM

165. Here's an idea: let's leave aside the word "feminism." Why not have ALL the incoming freshmen

have a small lesson as to what constitutes rape, how not to do it, and how to avoid it?

I have a son. I do not think he will become a rapist. But I would have absolutely no problem with his taking part in such a program.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #165)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:43 PM

166. Fully agree.

Thank you.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #166)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:19 PM

175. Well that was easy.

Sorry feminism bothers you so much. Sheesh.

ETA: Sorry, that was flippant. But feminism, by its definition, means that no one should be discriminated against due to their gender. This should make things better for EVERYONE.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #175)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:31 PM

176. No, it means advocacy for women.

There are many gender-discriminatory laws on the books in the US, and no mainstream feminist organization wants to change that.

What does it say about dialog when one party is dissatisfied with "full agreement"?

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #107)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:14 PM

159. Teaching self-defense makes sense.

Telling people who are not rapists not to rape isn't helpful.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #159)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:34 PM

163. Ridiculous, unless your definition of rape is strictly "crazy stranger in the shadows."

There is a great deal of misunderstanding in the general public as to precisely what rape is. There is nothing wrong with incoming freshmen of both (or any!) genders having to go through a short program of rape prevention.

ETA: I have an eleven year old son. I do not expect him to be a rapist. I would have no problem with his not-rapist status being reinforced by his college, high school, or even middle school.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #163)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:12 PM

183. OK Fine. Give the how not to rape class.

But suggesting, as the person holding the sign in the picture does, that it should REPLACE the self defense class is both idiotic and a non-sequitur.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:45 AM

96. when I was FizzFuzz back on DU2, people REALLY didnt get it...and a lot of Feminists got banned

For TAKING THE STANCE YOU ARE DEFENDING NOW!!!!

Yep...back then, a woman who got too verbal or angry or used all caps when responding to men who had shown a pattern of baiting them repeatedly (lady-baiting, I like to call it) could be pretty sure *she* would be the one to get tombstoned.

I did and so did a LOT of "the feminists" on the board.

Times do seem to be changing--if you think it's bad now, it was worse then.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:52 AM

97. Thanks for your posts William Pitt.

I did not respond or pay much attention the first time you posted the picture because I thought the young woman's message was a given.

When my daughters were young, aggressive men were such a problem (especially for one of my daughters who was very pretty but also very shy and studious) that I made sure they had self-defense lessons. That should not be necessary in our society.

When people tell me that we are a Christian country, I think about the numbers of murders and rapes and other crimes in my city. There is nothing Christian or Judeo-Christian about our society's attitude toward rape.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:33 AM

98. It's a sad commentary on society.

 


It underlines the victimhood status of women we have enshrined into our society. "You will likely be a victim due to your gender, so it is your responsibility to avoid it.", rather than, "Don't victimize women.".

We still treat women as the equivalent to children with regard to their capabilities. When you hear about an attack in which "women and children" were killed, that pretty much puts the seal on it.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:51 AM

104. I'm shocked that you're shocked

Eleven and a half years you've been here and you're just noticing this on DU???

Wow.

I haven't been here that long and I noticed it from the first day I came here. But than again, I'm a woman. It isn't possible for women to be blinded to the obvious when we have to LIVE with this shit every day. Oh, how wonderful to be a man and not have to bother even noticing because it isn't something that personally effects them.


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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #104)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:33 PM

146. when I posted this, I was making an oblique reference

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021902831#post96

I remember him. Back at DU2, you couldn't name names or even refer obliquely, so as I said, many of us women got banned!

always was curious as to who called the artillery out on me.... *snort*

Note that this issue of violence against women became paramount now that he's expecting a daughter.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:19 AM

105. Thank you for this.

Yes the fights you describe are frequently what women encounter on even the most progressive sites. It's depressing to say the least.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:09 AM

108. LOL WilliamPitt always gets his own thread

 

to discuss what is already in another thread.

Because his opinion is more important than just about anyone here



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Response to Eyes of the World (Reply #108)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:04 AM

113. Wow, here less then a month and you say that with such confidence!

It's almost like you've been around alot longer and it even looks like you've been around long enough to build up a dislike of Will.

Or maybe I'm wrong and you've just diligently gone back and read through years of DU in 30 days!

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #113)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:22 AM

117. Nah, I'm just a dick.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #117)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:25 AM

118. rofl!

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #113)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:51 AM

130. The poster simply has exceptional pattern response cognition.



Been here less than one month and is an expert on posting patterns for over 10 years.



This is the guy that you want to stand next to at the roulette wheel.

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Response to Eyes of the World (Reply #108)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:16 AM

124. You obviously aren't new, because your post is spot on.

WP could say the Republicans are smart and it would still get 150+ likes.

Too many sheep on this site.

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #124)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:41 PM

147. I have to agree.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021902831#post96

I remember him. Back at DU2, you couldn't name names or even refer obliquely, so as I said, many of us women got banned!

always was curious as to who called the artillery out on me.... *snort*

Note that this issue of violence against women became paramount now that he's expecting a daughter.



Oh well....on the bright side, I'm glad this issue is getting more eyes.

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Response to Eyes of the World (Reply #108)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:35 AM

126. +1. I hereby announce the winner of "The most narcissistic thread ever" award.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #126)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:35 PM

177. Followed closely by the winner of the Most Petulant Response Ever Award

Followed closely by the winner of the Most Petulant Response Ever Award (which isn't quite as important, hence the lack of quotation marks...).

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Response to Eyes of the World (Reply #108)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:10 PM

156. Terrible shot. You totally missed the messenger.

Did you not like the OP, but could not refute the argument, so therefore you felt compelled to make a personal attack on the OP poster out of frustration?


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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:10 AM

109. Put the blame where it belongs,the DU admins allow it.

Personally, the Mens Rights trolls here (a small but loud minority) have made this site toxic for women.If Skinner is truly concerned with those that make DU suck, he would get rid of the lot of them.As it is, DU is no longer a female friendly site.

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #109)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:43 PM

148. Tell It, Sister!

The trolling, hostility, condescension and self-pity they get away with astounds me.

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #109)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:44 PM

191. exactly right. i could NEVER recommend DU to progressive friends because of this.

I'm here because I have old friends, but it's too often an embarrassment.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:20 AM

110. Whats contraversial about this? Its the truth everywhere. Why aren't we teaching empathy as well?

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:54 AM

112. 5,000 years of "Law of the Jungle" conditioning vs. 4,000 days of DU? No contest.

Look. When the women of the tribe strayed into Lion territory while gathering berries and firewood, the elders could ONLY say "don't go there." The same counsel would follow when they wandered into another tribe's territory and were kidnapped by the young hunters of that tribe.

Part of humanity's social "evolution" was to appeal to a diety and to go to war. Nonetheless, the counsel to the women of the tribe remained the same.

One could argue that humanity wouldn't have evolved at all without the potential victims of predation having learned how to avoid and evade such predations, no matter how 'unfair' they might regard it.

Yes ... every ethical cell in my body rebels at the notion of blaming the victims. Yes ... we cannot regard ourselves as "civilized" without deterring and punishing predatory behavior. But it must be observed that predatory behavior in general is richly-rewarded in our society. That's what much of Capitalism has become. Predation.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:36 AM

119. As Usual...

Spot On.

Thanks for staying, I have enjoyed your 4000 days here, please stay another 4000.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:39 AM

120. So we need a third thread for a flame fest?

Um, thanks.

BTW, while the lady has a great point, I don't understand why they don't teach both!

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:41 AM

121. I agree that rape is bad and every effort should be made to stop it, teaching people not to rape

smacks of Nancy Reagan's "Just say No to drugs." The men that will rape, I doubt would change their mind b/c they were told it was wrong.

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Response to Dustlawyer (Reply #121)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:46 AM

122. I disagree. I believe that many fewer date rapes would occur if there was better education.

On college campuses, for one, there are subcultures that seem to think that raping drunken women is ok. Most people recognize that this is not ok, but some people are confused on that topic. Education would help.

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Response to Dustlawyer (Reply #121)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:07 AM

135. You have to teach the boys and girls before they even get to college

You have to teach them that rape is not just something that happens in dark alleys, by strangers. To many do not understand that there are many different ways for rape to happen.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:48 AM

123. there are a few

of us old-timers that support what you have been trying to do. Keep up the messages we are behind and if necessary in front of you. Hang in there brother.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:41 AM

127. Absolutely right on Will, but personally

I think both messages need to be included. The problem at that university, in my opinion, is not that they included the "avoidance" message, but that they did so without the more important don't rape message.

While I am not shocked by a lot of the responses on those prior postings, I am disappointed.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:00 AM

133. My reaction is that it is a sad thing that any such course need be taught.

But there seems to be some offense at the idea of teaching a "don't rape" course to incoming freshmen. I can understand that, since I have long railed against the "guilty until proved innocent" culture that has emerged over the last generation.

Realistically speaking, a course to incoming freshmen on "How to Avoid Rape" is liable to serve a much more practical purpose than a course to incoming freshman on "Don't Rape." Maybe I'm a pessimist, but I doubt a single freshman course would change very many minds on that subject, if they needed changing in the first place.

-- Mal

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:05 AM

134. Missed the whole thing

 

but I've always enjoyed you when you lose it. Even "Progressives" need a good ass whoopin now and then.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:33 AM

136. word....

Indeed.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:50 AM

137. Do you now understand why...

when some person alerted on the inspiration for that "best jury service evah" thread, and one of the responses included the phrase "tits or GTFO"... that was offensive as hell?

I am not trying to give you a hard time. I am sincerely asking.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #137)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:58 AM

138. Yup.

It was a joke with LynneSin, but was in bad taste. Clearly.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #138)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:09 PM

140. DU is not 4chan/b

Context and setting have a lot to do with what is (or is not) appropriate expression. So, yeah. Bad taste.

Trav

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #138)


Response to redqueen (Reply #137)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:59 PM

150. I missed that one, but I'm not surprised.

"clearly it was in bad taste." After 4000 days on DU, I would think that would give anyone time to learn what IS in good taste.

Gonzo journalism (High testosterone, lotta bad words and yelling, plus female-sexuality based insults and "joshing") is popular when one aspires to the hallowed halls of Hunter S Thompson.

.......................

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021902831#post96

I remember him. Back at DU2, you couldn't name names or even refer obliquely, so as I said, many of us women got banned!

always was curious as to who called the artillery out on me.... *snort*

Note that this issue of violence against women became paramount now that he's expecting a daughter.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #137)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:31 AM

189. Oh for fuck's sake.

I swear, too many of my fellow males have the emotional maturity of a 12yo.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:23 PM

141. I think it would be good to teach both principles ... but

But "How to avoid getting raped" should be based largely on self defence technique ... say a killing and maiming hand to hand art like Kempo. OK, that's probably too hard core but you get my point. It is empowering to know how do defend yourself. And would be rapists should bleed.

That teaching is prudent because not all men are going to "get" the "Don't rape" teaching. For whatever cultural, religious, psychological, who gives a damn reason, their minds are closed to the concepts of female dignity and simple decency. These are the guys that should bleed if they try to act out their dumb ass puke gutted knuckledragger fantasies.

That's my take on it, anyway. I object to rape. I will express that violently if I stumble upon the act in progress. Perhaps my views are overly simplistic ...

Trav

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:08 PM

154. And we now have a DU poster defending his serial raping as a youthful rite of passage.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #154)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:19 PM

160. Basically on the grounds that he was "mistaken" and now he knows better, so . . .



Looked a LOT like a possible Borderline Personality Disorder to me, so I'm out of there.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:14 PM

158. Yep. I avoid those kinds of power struggles like the plague, because they are Lose : Lose. nt

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:27 PM

161. Yeah. Truth. Right on. Damn straight. The real deal. On point. Should be obvious to all. K&R nt

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:08 PM

168. Until I started reading this board, I never knew there were so many

 

misogynistic Democrats who sounded every bit as disturbed as any throwback Republican.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:10 PM

169. I started reading the posts yesterday

and they made me sick. It was an asinine argument.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:11 PM

170. The only one I saw the one posted by NYC_SKP, and that one had no arguing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11382034

I believe you, but could you post a link the one that had arguing? I would like to read the arguments.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #171)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:53 PM

179. Thanks. nt

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:55 PM

172. Innocent misunderstandings

I for one am not the brightest guy in the world. I really did not get what the sign meant at first. My initial assumption was that most rapists do not attend college and therefore would not benefit from college orientation. But then I was like, ohhh.... apparently, there are a lot of males who commit rape in college. This is not only tolerated, but in some ways it is still encouraged, since these types of guys are often considered 'aggressive type A personalities' and then go on to become presidents of companies and such. The sign could have been a little more explicit. It's a little bit like a trap to those who do not happen to process insinuations as quickly as others do. I see a lot of these traps on the DU. I am naive and fall into them easily so I usually just avoid disagreeing with anyone. "What you don't agree... how dare you." Even though it's just a misunderstanding among totally innocent people really.

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #172)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:46 PM

178. ya. good point. we really should be more gentle about this. some of us have been

here so long. we assume everyone is up to date, where we are. or in a particular subject.

and we have so many that are here to disrupt.... with an obtuse... i dont understand.

thanks for pointing this out

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:15 PM

173. I guess

 

the best way to avoid murder-level anger, suicidal depression, and vivid fantasies involving dick slashing is just not to read the comments.

Close the computer. Take many deep breaths.

Leave the house. Get hammer from garage or trunk of car and then bang it over and over and over and over on the sidewalk or anywhere else that is convenient. Wear safety glasses. Scream and curse. See how long it takes to exhaust oneself or for the police to arrive.

I hate most Americans. Most Americans do not deserve to live. Such stupidity and bile coming from so-called 'progressives' tells me everything I need to know.

I await Mother Nature's touch of The Reset Button. So long you pathetic pieces of slime. And you all know who you are.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:06 PM

182. I posted this on one of the other threads.

I know maybe 4 women who haven't been raped or molested. My mother and my sister are not counted among them, either. I knew about girls being raped and assaulted in high school, and when I got to college, the women and their stories just came out of the woodwork. Stories of girls being raped with curling irons, of being raped while passed out, of being snatched on cruise ships and raped while they were young tweens, of being molested by their own fathers who were high at the time.

I can think of only one close friend that I know for sure was never touched (although a grown man exposed himself to her when she was a child), and one more that I *think* has never been molested. That's it. Every. single. one. of my close friends has either been raped or molested. It's that pervasive.

I guess you're even more acutely chagrined by these discussions in light of the fact that you've recently discovered you're having a daughter. All I can say is teach her well (I'm sure you and your wife will do that regardless), and I really liked the book The Gift of Fear, and his companion book Protecting the Gift. It helped me to feel marginally better, and to honor my inner voice much more.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:36 AM

186. I was one of the idiots until a friend of mine got raped a few years ago.

Then I got it. I am really sick of this shit.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:54 AM

188. self

Seems like if we could teach self control, personal accountability and some compassion better in our society a LOT of our problems would get a lot better.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:23 PM

192. You stared a conversation

that we as a Country have needed to have for a long time.

You thought it was simple, but it turns out it wasn't quite as simple as you thought it would be. Which is so true of so many "simple concepts".

yes, you inadvertently opened up a can of worms, but it was a can that NEEDED to be opened.

I Poured out that can that you opened. Because I was a worm. I am a different person now than I was then - but I felt that this issue needed to be discussed.

I am more than willing to accept all of the criticism that I deserve, because I feel NOW that this issue needs to be brought to the attention of all.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:43 AM

196. Will, it is depressing. Very depressing....

Which is why the core message on this subject cannot be repeated loudly enough or often enough.

Thank you, sir. And indeed, TRUTH.

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