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Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:25 PM

 

"How to Avoid getting Raped"

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142 replies, 14574 views

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Reply "How to Avoid getting Raped" (Original post)
michigandem58 Nov 2012 OP
datasuspect Nov 2012 #1
monmouth3 Nov 2012 #2
datasuspect Nov 2012 #3
lapislzi Nov 2012 #13
Bandit Nov 2012 #64
mythology Nov 2012 #88
1StrongBlackMan Nov 2012 #4
whathehell Nov 2012 #78
1StrongBlackMan Nov 2012 #82
whathehell Nov 2012 #94
theinquisitivechad Nov 2012 #101
1StrongBlackMan Nov 2012 #104
whathehell Dec 2012 #142
BlancheSplanchnik Nov 2012 #125
Luminous Animal Nov 2012 #5
datasuspect Nov 2012 #7
seabeyond Nov 2012 #9
datasuspect Nov 2012 #12
BainsBane Nov 2012 #92
progressoid Nov 2012 #115
lapislzi Nov 2012 #22
datasuspect Nov 2012 #25
lapislzi Nov 2012 #36
datasuspect Nov 2012 #41
lapislzi Nov 2012 #50
AtheistCrusader Nov 2012 #90
whathehell Nov 2012 #75
Egalitarian Thug Nov 2012 #11
datasuspect Nov 2012 #15
morningfog Nov 2012 #16
datasuspect Nov 2012 #19
Egalitarian Thug Nov 2012 #60
morningfog Nov 2012 #14
datasuspect Nov 2012 #17
morningfog Nov 2012 #20
datasuspect Nov 2012 #23
morningfog Nov 2012 #24
datasuspect Nov 2012 #27
morningfog Nov 2012 #31
bettyellen Nov 2012 #93
datasuspect Nov 2012 #40
morningfog Nov 2012 #43
LanternWaste Nov 2012 #28
datasuspect Nov 2012 #32
LanternWaste Nov 2012 #35
lapislzi Nov 2012 #56
Matariki Nov 2012 #26
datasuspect Nov 2012 #29
lapislzi Nov 2012 #30
bettyellen Nov 2012 #46
morningfog Nov 2012 #48
lalalu Nov 2012 #71
2naSalit Nov 2012 #79
seabeyond Nov 2012 #84
2naSalit Nov 2012 #128
lalalu Nov 2012 #44
morningfog Nov 2012 #45
lalalu Nov 2012 #53
rhett o rick Nov 2012 #34
lapislzi Nov 2012 #42
seabeyond Nov 2012 #52
rhett o rick Nov 2012 #65
seabeyond Nov 2012 #51
DURHAM D Nov 2012 #49
Capt. Obvious Nov 2012 #58
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #68
TheMadMonk Nov 2012 #107
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #108
seabeyond Nov 2012 #111
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #124
seabeyond Nov 2012 #126
TheMadMonk Nov 2012 #117
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #121
AtheistCrusader Nov 2012 #73
FarCenter Nov 2012 #77
myrna minx Nov 2012 #83
seabeyond Nov 2012 #86
AtheistCrusader Nov 2012 #89
FarCenter Nov 2012 #97
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #103
TorchTheWitch Nov 2012 #105
FarCenter Nov 2012 #109
seabeyond Nov 2012 #112
Le Taz Hot Nov 2012 #133
AtheistCrusader Nov 2012 #119
AtheistCrusader Nov 2012 #118
Le Taz Hot Nov 2012 #132
Fawke Em Nov 2012 #6
Manifestor_of_Light Nov 2012 #8
seabeyond Nov 2012 #10
Le Taz Hot Nov 2012 #134
99Forever Nov 2012 #18
seabeyond Nov 2012 #21
lalalu Nov 2012 #33
meegbear Nov 2012 #37
Springslips Nov 2012 #38
lapislzi Nov 2012 #47
Springslips Nov 2012 #61
lapislzi Nov 2012 #66
SoCalDem Nov 2012 #81
seabeyond Nov 2012 #87
Taverner Nov 2012 #39
laundry_queen Nov 2012 #95
Taverner Nov 2012 #96
Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #54
Bicoastal Nov 2012 #55
LanternWaste Nov 2012 #59
FarCenter Nov 2012 #74
Cleita Nov 2012 #57
WilliamPitt Nov 2012 #62
myrna minx Nov 2012 #67
WilliamPitt Nov 2012 #69
cthulu2016 Nov 2012 #63
lapislzi Nov 2012 #91
white_wolf Nov 2012 #116
seabeyond Nov 2012 #127
truebrit71 Nov 2012 #70
FarCenter Nov 2012 #72
HockeyMom Nov 2012 #76
gollygee Nov 2012 #85
LeftyMom Nov 2012 #100
XemaSab Nov 2012 #102
Starry Messenger Nov 2012 #110
obamanut2012 Nov 2012 #114
LittleGirl Nov 2012 #80
ornotna Nov 2012 #98
OnionPatch Nov 2012 #120
renate Nov 2012 #129
Le Taz Hot Nov 2012 #131
libdem4life Nov 2012 #99
rainin Nov 2012 #106
seabeyond Nov 2012 #113
flvegan Nov 2012 #122
Romulox Nov 2012 #123
rateyes Nov 2012 #130
Eyes of the World Nov 2012 #135
seabeyond Nov 2012 #136
Jersey Devil Nov 2012 #137
seabeyond Nov 2012 #138
guardian Nov 2012 #139
OneTenthofOnePercent Nov 2012 #140
Chalco Nov 2012 #141

Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:32 PM

1. huh?

 

criminals will always commit crimes, no amount of education can change that.

is it right? fuck no. that's why it's a crime.

i'm all for teaching people to not become victims in the first place. you can be very proactive in that regard. i can greatly lessen my chance of becoming a robbery victim by handling financial transactions in appropriate places and not downtown gary, indiana at 3 am.

see where that line of thought can lead you. we all have a responsibility to protect ourselves first before we expect EVERYONE to honor our rights.

bottom line: there will be people who don't even think you are human, let alone as a person with rights and dignity.

we all know and understand that women have an inviolable right to their bodies.

that doesn't mean that criminals will honor that right.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #1)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:34 PM

2. Dress appropriately...n/t

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Response to monmouth3 (Reply #2)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:38 PM

3. wasn't alluding to that

 

my point is that you can have all the rights in the world, it doesn't mean that a criminal will respect them.

a rapist will rape you regardless of anything that you wear.

knowing how to protect yourself with deadly force obviates the need for fashion advice vis a vis rape.

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Response to monmouth3 (Reply #2)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:04 PM

13. Maybe you forgot the sarcasm thingy?

Cause if you are serious...I don't know. (Shakes head and walks away sadly)

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Response to monmouth3 (Reply #2)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:07 PM

64. Wear nice clothes and you run the risk of being mugged.

So does wearing nice clothes make it your fault if you get mugged? I hate it when people blame the victim.

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Response to monmouth3 (Reply #2)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:50 PM

88. I do dress appropriately

I always wear pants around women who haven't expressed a mutual desire to have sex with me. That way, my penis can't go anywhere it's not supposed to.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #1)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:42 PM

4. Problem is ...

many/most of those "rapists" don't consider themselves "criminals" because they didn't grab her, throw her down and mount her; the merely waited until she passed out ... or, joined in on the "train" ... or, proceeded when she finally "gave it up" after hours of saying "No" and slapping hands ... her weeping and biting her lip ... well ...

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #4)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:16 PM

78. One solution to the problem may be to make it his "problem"

" or, proceeded when she finally "gave it up" after hours of saying "No"
and slapping hands ... her weeping and biting her lip"


If someone tried to rape me, the only thing I'd "give up" would be

my foot to his balls or my fist to his face. Somehow, it seems a

better strategy than "weeping", "slapping hands" or "biting" lips.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #78)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:39 PM

82. There are any number of reasons ...

from socialization to fear ... that "making it his problem" doesn't occur.

BTW, are you Male or Female? ...

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #82)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:03 PM

94. Sometimes it does occur

Why do you want to know my gender?

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Response to whathehell (Reply #94)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:59 PM

101. He's male obvi n/t

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Response to whathehell (Reply #94)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:06 PM

104. Because ...

us males seem not to understand what moves females to act, or not act.

It's taken me years of marriage; but more, the active raising of a daughter to understand that females and males operate on different planes. What seems the obvious answer to most males in a particular situation is, often, because of socialization, fear, or emotion, is not an option for some females.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #104)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 03:06 PM

142. Umm....Not so sure about your conclusion

Men and women may "operate on different planes" but a lot of that IS socialization.

Obviously, men and women are a LOT more alike than different.

I'm not sure why so many men want to ignore that fact, but I'm sure

you're aware of how White people have, historically, treated minorities as the "other"

as well, and we know that didn't turn out well.

The fact is, if one is TREATED as a member of a "different" or "lower" type of humanity,

that treatment certainly WILL affect the behavior of the "other", in some way.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #4)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:02 AM

125. I am GLAD to see that a MAN here understands the reality that many women are not

equipped to violently fight back. Physically and by personal traits/ characteristics, many women do get worn down as you describe or believe lies about emotional bonding.....whatever the issue.

Too many women don't know how to take care of themselves effectively JUST AS many MEN haven't learned to control their impulses. Many men also have trouble reading emotions in others, not to mention not knowing how to respect the emotions. They don't listen very well to what other people need them to hear.

So yes, people need to be teaching boys not to rape.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #1)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:46 PM

5. Men seriously need an education.

- In a survey of male college students:

· 35% anonymously admitted that, under certain circumstances, they would commit rape if they believed they could get away with it (ref 6,7).

· One in 12 admitted to committing acts that met the legal definitions of rape, and 84% of men who committed rape did not label it as rape.(ref 6,7)

- In another survey of college males: (ref 8)

· 43% of college-aged men admitted to using coercive behavior to have sex, including ignoring a woman's protest, using physical aggression, and forcing intercourse.

· 15% acknowledged they had committed acquaintance rape; 11% acknowledged using physical restraints to force a woman to have sex.


http://www.uic.edu/depts/owa/sa_rape_support.html

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #5)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:53 PM

7. one landing page from a University of Illinois at Chicago server constitutes education?

 

you could try to educate me harder.

and spewing ideology doesn't quite equal education.

what specifically would you like to teach me (we'll assume that all your assumptions about a complete stranger are correct and valid)?

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #7)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:57 PM

9. here are the sources. check them out. cause i KNOW you are serious about educating yourself.

1. Dupre, A.R., Hampton, H.L., Morrison, H., and Meeks, G.R. Sexual Assault. Obstetrical and Gynecological Survey. 1993;48:640-648.

2. National Crime Center and Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center. Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. Arlington, VA; 1992:1-16

3. National Victim Center, and Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center. Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. Arlington, VA; 1992:1-16.

4. Koss M.P., Hidden rape: sexual aggression and victimization in a national sample of students in higher education. In: Burgess A.W., ed Rape and Sexual Assault. New York, NY: Garland Publishing: 1988;2:3-25.

5. White, Jacqueline W. and John A. Humphrey. "Young People's Attitudes Toward Acquaintance Rape." Acquaintance Rape: The Hidden crime." John Wiley and Sons, 1991.

6. Koss M.P., Dinero, T.E., Seibel, C.A. Stranger and acquaintance rape: Are there differences in the victim's experience? Psychology of Women Quarterly. 1988:12:1-24.

7. Malamuth N.M. Rape proclivity among males. J Soc Issues. 1981;37:138-157.

8. Rapaport, Karen R. and C. Dale Posey. Sexually Coercive College Males. Acquaintance Rape: The Hidden Crime, edited by Andrea Parrot. John Wiley and Sons, 1991.

9. Ellis, Atkeson, Calhoun, 1982: Gidycz, Coble, Latham, Layman, (1993); Guthrie, Notgrass, 1992.

10. Frieze IH, Browne A. Violence in marriage. In: Ohlin, L, Tonry, M, eds. Family Violence: Crime and Justice, A Review of Research. Chicago, Ill: University of Chicago Press; 1989:163-218.

11. American Academy of Pediatrics, Committee on Adolescence. Sexual assault and the adolescent. Pediatrics. 1994;94(5)61-765.

12. Heise, L.L. Reproductive freedom and violence against women: where are the intersections? J Law Med Ethics. 1993;21(2):206-216.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #9)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:04 PM

12. give me your academic login credentials

 

so i can access these materials online.

i'm disabled, live in a rural location, and don't have access to Jstor or anything like that.

you can pm me.

or i will give you my PO box number if you want to make photocopies of these materials, i will gladly read them.

Thanks!

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #12)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:09 PM

92. Try Google Scholar

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #92)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:56 PM

115. +1

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #7)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:10 PM

22. In layman's terms (see what I did there?)...

We (mainly, but not exclusively) women, would like to teach males (mainly, but not exclusively) that many so-called benign behaviors and cultural norms actually facilitate a culture of rape in our society.

The notion that the primary responsibility for rape prevention lies with the woman is one of those notions that needs to be debunked and exposed for what it is: a ducking of responsibility from by the rapist (or would-be rapist) for his or her actions. It is possible that some would-be rapists, like the college kids who don't realize that getting a girl drunk and then having sex with her, don't understand the many forms that rape can take.

What would you like to know? I will happily provide answers to the best of my ability, and without your having to scour academic journals.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #22)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:13 PM

25. my point is

 

you can teach that.

it is laudable to teach that.

it is of utmost importance to teach that.

but not everyone cares.

you have a right to your dignity and your body.

not everyone will honor that right.

that has to be a component of anti-rape education: a rapist doesn't care if you are empowered - what do you do then?

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #25)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:22 PM

36. Right. But identifying the behaviors and attitudes

will go a long way towards fixing the problem.

You will never be able to prevent men jumping out of the bushes and raping women. and self-defense of all kinds is great for that. That's not the kind of rape we can really fix to any great extent.

But if we can fix some of the other wrong ideas, then the men who really probably would not like to be labeled rapists, would think twice before forcing sex on a woman. IF they know that it's rape. Teach them that "no" means "no," and that nobody, not nobody, is ENTITLED to sex for any reason.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #36)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:25 PM

41. men don't generally "jump out of bushes"

 

it's more than likely someone you already know.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #41)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:37 PM

50. My point exactly.

Stranger rape is the least common type of rape, and the kind that we really can't educate for, beyond general common-sense self protection. There are nuts out there.

Most rapists are known to their victims. And I believe that many of these (men) can be reached and educated about what constitutes rape.

Peace to you.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #41)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:06 PM

90. Precisely. Now couple this with the number of people convicted of rape that don't believe

they committed rape at all.

What does that tell you about who needs to be educated about rape?
What does that tell you about the value in 'teaching women how to avoid rape'? Don't get me wrong, personal security is a good idea, and something to teach regardless. BUT, in the context of eliminating rape, it amounts to raising the lowest common denominator of who is likely to be a victim of rape. That is not a solution to the problem.

The solution is, to a large degree, to teach people what boundaries and consent are, and are not.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #25)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:03 PM

75. What would your point be about other violent crimes?

A robber or a murderer may not "care" if one is empowered either.

Isn't that why we have this thing called a CriminaL Justice System?

The level of caring in all violent criminals tends to rise when their victim's

"empowerment" comes at the point of a gun, knife, or something else

that can hurt him as much as he's trying to hurt her.

Just a thought.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #1)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:01 PM

11. That whooshing sound was another point flying right over your head.

 



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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #11)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:04 PM

15. how so?

 

what point did i miss?

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #11)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:06 PM

16. That other whooshing sound was his hand giving the point an assist.

I think the poster intentionally misses the point.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #16)


Response to morningfog (Reply #16)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:00 PM

60. Good point. n/t

 

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #1)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:04 PM

14. Way to miss the point.

Rape, date-rape and other sexual assaults are far too prevalent on college campuses. The point is, schools and society should be teaching men what is appropriate and what isn't.

Instead, as this sign succinctly illustrates, the path has been to blame the victim. You are supporting that narrative with your response.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #14)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:06 PM

17. how do they teach criminals to not commit crimes?

 

how effective will that ever be?

sounds like they need to teach people how to get tough.

that's what all this psycho babble self esteem nonsense has got us: 20 something year old babies without backbones.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #17)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:08 PM

20. You are making several erroneous presumptions.

Young men do things that have become social acceptable, at least to their cohorts, that they do not recognize as rape or sexual assault. Or, they don't take it seriously.

Are you calling 20 year old rape victims "babies without backbones?" Rape victims need to get tough?

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Response to morningfog (Reply #20)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:11 PM

23. ok

 

You said:

Young men do things that have become social acceptable, at least to their cohorts, that they do not recognize as rape or sexual assault. Or, they don't take it seriously.

I say:

there isn't any venue within any social group i've encountered in the past 42 years that condones rape. in fact, we were taught that rape is criminal, nonsexual, and socially unacceptable in middle school and in high school.

who are you traveling with?

You said:

Are you calling 20 year old rape victims "babies without backbones?" Rape victims need to get tough?

I say:

no.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #23)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:12 PM

24. Then who were you referring to?

Who needs to get a backbone? And needs to get tough?

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Response to morningfog (Reply #24)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:16 PM

27. put it like this

 

my grandfather shot down nazi fighters over the Ruhr by the time he was 20.

he came home and was a respected member of his farming community by age 26.

my nephews are in their early 20s and can barely wipe their own ass.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #27)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:18 PM

31. No, we aren't talking about generalities.

Put it like you meant it in that post.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #27)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:27 PM

93. Wow, you were saying the victims needed to toughen up!!!

You're backed in a corner, and must realize the vast majority of DU is completely disgusted - truly repulsed - by your take on this issue.
It is revoltingly regressive and has no place here. Fuck this garbage you spew.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #24)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:24 PM

40. people in general need a backbone

 

and we could all stand to get more tough.

victims of crime need access to the criminal justice system.

rapists and pedophiles (in my world) get fucked up pretty bad.

they get beaten to within an inch of their life.

i've seen a man get his testicles cut off because he molested a child.

WE don't call the police.

that's MY experience. i didn't grow up in a safe place.

our grandfathers cut off japanese ears and our fathers were jolly green savages in 'nam.

everything centered around violence and alcohol, but women, children, and old people generally were protected and left to do womanly, childly, and elderly shit.

we lived at the intersection of blood, spit, and shit.


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Response to datasuspect (Reply #40)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:28 PM

43. Well, tough guy, what is the relevance in this context?

We were talking about victims and potential victims of rape. That is when you mentioned the 20 something needing a backbone and referred to them as babies.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #23)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:17 PM

28. A lot of people have explained it to you rather well...

A lot of people have explained it to you rather well- quite a number of times in this thread, so at this point, I can only presume that you are unwilling, rather than unable to understand the whoosh point by now.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #28)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:18 PM

32. no it's because you're doing a piss poor job of being a smart ass

 

and have nothing of substance to contribute to this thread except your wickedness.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #32)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:22 PM

35. I'm not clever enough to be smart ass..

I'm not clever enough to be smart ass... however, I am clever enough to see the point- as I imagine you are too.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #23)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:44 PM

56. May I have your definition of rape?

Let us be sure we are on the same playing field, vocabulary-wise.

In my, and in many other cogent, intelligent women's opinion, RAPE is forced or unwanted sexual contact instigated and prosecuted without the consent of both parties. Including but not limited to intercourse, oral sex, and digital penetration. Including but not limited to one or both parties' impairment due to drug or alcohol consumption.

That runs the table from diddling the drunk freshman to forced intercourse and battery at knifepoint by a total stranger.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #17)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:16 PM

26. "psycho babble self esteem nonsense"????

WTF? Are you talking about?

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Response to Matariki (Reply #26)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:17 PM

29. psycho babble self esteem nonsense

 

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #17)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:17 PM

30. No. You really are missing the point.

Teach MEN what rape is.

--Rape is jumping out of the bushes and assaulting a jogger in the park, and forcing her to have sex.
--Rape is offering lots of alcohol to a girl and having sex with her when she passes out.
--Rape is forcing a woman to have sex with you after you've bought her dinner, even if she doesn't want to.
--Rape is commencing intercourse when she just wants to kiss and cuddle, and says "no" to intercourse.
--Rape is your husband's best friend who locks you in his bedroom at a party and forces you to have sex, and shames you for "flirting" with him.

That last one was me. I'm no lightweight, either. And I had no fucking idea. And that guy, probably STILL doesn't realize he raped me. That's what I'm talking about. The first step in not raping is knowing what rape is.

You're not entitled to sex because she led you on, or because she dressed provactively, or because she flirted with you, or because you think sex is the price of a meal. All false.

You're welcome.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #17)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:32 PM

46. wow, for you to point fingers at "babble" after spewing this circular reasoning crap, LOL

Is this performance art, sarcasm?
Gosh, I hope it;s not for reals1

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #46)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:34 PM

48. He won't be responding, thankfully. He's blocked from this thread now.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #17)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:38 PM

71. You sound a little rough but I get your point.

 

There will always be criminals. Teaching how to avoid, be aware , and defend yourself are good things.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #17)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:22 PM

79. The points

that you are attempting to make sound like this to me:

Violence is the best answer to the problem since men can't be taught to engage in socially acceptable behavior, after all they spend their early years planted in front of a screen that subliminally indoctrinates them to the general culture of violence as the norm. Video games, TeeVee, movies and advertising all promote the concept that women are objects and vessels of male satisfaction. From clothing ads to the whores wandering the streets in video games that are predominantly glorification vectors for violence, all teach young men and justify the ideals of misguided older men that women are to be raped, all they want is sex and to be violated because men write the ads and programming and scripts that present that sort of idealism. And then there's the sick fashion industry that is designed to convince women that they are something less than a full human if they aren't buying in to the hype that sexy is all they should aspire to be, and look at the styles that are promoted...

If males are going to attend college with the pretense of becoming educated, there is an absolute, undeniable need for guidelines and protocols on appropriate behavior with regard to women and their rights to be included in that education, period. Unless you have been educated about these factors, and you're male, you don't have a clue.

Real men aren't afraid of real knowledge.

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #79)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:46 PM

84. this post is beyond excellent. thank you.

truly... everyone needs to read.

and welcome to du

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #84)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:44 AM

128. Thank you

and Thank You.

It's what happens when you've seen too many excuses for bad behavior... along with a degree in cultural anthropology. It just sort of came out after I read a number of stupid comments from that rape apologist that, I'm guessing, was censured at about the same time as I wrote that.

I just don't do well with ignorance by choice.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #14)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:28 PM

44. Have you ever been to these classes? I have back when I was on campus.

 

They do not in any shape or form teach you to be a victim. It is the exact opposite. They teach avoiding circumstances that can put you in danger. Similar to teaching a person who likes cycling the way to safely avoid being hit.

They teach self defense and how to assess the best way to take control of a dangerous situation. Rapists are about violence and control and they teach methods in which women can take control. It is not teaching anyone to be a victim. It seems she is trying to make herself into a victim.

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Response to lalalu (Reply #44)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:31 PM

45. Oh, I see the value in the class. But, the point of the sign in the OP is

reinforced by those advocating against education of possible rapists, too. Datasuspect was arguing that there was no point in raising awareness on the potential perpetrator side.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #45)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:41 PM

53. I agree we should teach both.

 

Back when I was on campus in the olden days they were just starting to enforce harsh penalties against students who committed the crime of rape. They were also stopping the policy of keeping the numbers hidden and protecting the criminals. Yet even now a lot still get away with committing this crime and campuses try to hide how big an issue this is.

To me this is one of the most destructive and brutal acts that can be committed against another human being.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #1)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:22 PM

34. Those that rape are not like other criminals IMO.

These are just my thoughts.

Where as criminals commit crimes for many reasons, those that rape do so for the power. We live in a culture that considers men to be superior and rape is a demonstration of that superiority. Again, IMHO rapists think that it is ok to rape because it's a women's place to be subservient. Rape is an extension of male dominance.

I think the intention of the OP is that we should teach men that women dont deserve to be raped. That may sound obvious to some but those that rape havent learned it.

I hope my meaning came thru and I didnt offend anyone.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #34)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:27 PM

42. One more point.

Sex is not your god-given right, nor is power, nor is dominance. All false.

I taught my daughter that her sexual experiences were entirely within her control. She is the owner of her sexuality, not a man. Any man who thinks differently or tries to force the issue is to be ejected, discarded, shunned, and otherwise shown the door. Any man who doesn't go willingly can be dealt with however she sees fit.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #42)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:40 PM

52. She is the owner of her sexuality, not a man.

thank you soooo much for truly empowering your daughter in the right way. so true. and so many girls do not get this. are not taught. society teaches them otherwise. the worst thing i see in the last decade and more.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #42)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:15 PM

65. Well said. nm

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #34)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:38 PM

51. you said it VERY well. thank you. and right on. literally.... right. on. nt

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #1)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:35 PM

49. How disgusting.

It is the 21st fuckin' century and you are not in it.


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Response to datasuspect (Reply #1)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:46 PM

58. And the point sails wide right

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #1)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:30 PM

68. Yes, the rapists we still have with us(to repurpose something somebody said about something else)

That doesn't mean we have to accept that rape(and all other violations of body and spirit)must simply be accepted as an inevitable and unchangeable aspect of life.

Why SHOULDN'T we demand that universities teach "DON'T RAPE" as part of freshman orientation?

Why SHOULDN'T we challenge the culture of violation with the same vigor with which we teach people to protect themselves AGAINST violation?

Your view is predicated on the notion that nothing can ever really change.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #68)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:33 PM

107. So will these seminars be mandatory or voluntary?

 

If the latter, they're unlikely reach anyone who needs (or is at all likely to heed) the message, and if mandatory, you're working from the pressumption that ALL MEN ARE RAPISTS who must be actively thwarted.

We tell people to lock their doors and call them fools when they don't.

We (in some places) prosecute people who leave the engine running and the keys in the ignition.

We teach people not to keep unsecured valuables in their homes, and again call them idiots when they're robbed.

We teach people to protect their PIN, and laugh (or cry) at people still falling for the latest African Oil/gold/diamonds scheme.




Our view is predicated on thousands of years of demonstrable history. And yet people continue to be shocked and surprised when the world presents as it IS, and fails to meet their demands as to how it should be.

Our view is based on the knowledge, that no matter how wonderful it looks from the outside, civilisation is a very thin veneer over a very dirty cesspool.

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Response to TheMadMonk (Reply #107)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:59 PM

108. I'd go with mandatory and POSITIVE....a part of growing into true manhood.

And, rather than taking the view that all men ARE rapists, I'd work from the philosophy that no man HAS to be a rapist...that men can STOP rape and stop rape culture...that every man has it within himself to avoid, and to help all other men to avoid, being a violator...being a destroyer...being part of death, in short instead of part of life.

That we, as men, can free the world from rape and rape culture, and in doing so, can free ourselves to be men in the highest, truest, most positive sense...to be whole and to find the only true strength, the strength to do nothing but good in this world.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #108)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:11 PM

111. speak it, brother. you are so right on. i do not get why men sell themselves short.

So many do.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #111)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:49 AM

124. Fear...fear of change. And a refusal to believe

that life can ever be anything other than what it is right now...that nothing that can't be seen, touched or heard at this very moment can ever be brought into being.

Also, fear of being proven wrong, in many, many cases.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #124)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:26 AM

126. yup. and let that go and a man will truly be free and so thankful. just does not believe it yet.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #108)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:08 AM

117. Unicorns and Butterflies? Want to buy a bridge?

 

Several thousand years of recorded history, plus the odd stove in skull from pre-history, tells us that what you said is so much bullshit and wishful thinking.

If EVERY man had it in himself to be and not be those things, then we'd be living in a utopia.

Look at just how quickly we can devolve to the worst of human behaviour, when the brakes of civilised behaviour are removed. From the 15 YO inner city gangbanger pimping out his 10 YO sister, to the grizzled staff seargent teaching fresh recruits the best trophy ear drying techniques.

You react with shock and horror at: The parent or babysitter shaking a kid's brains into so much porridge; The dad who drives off a bridge with his kids to "punnish the bitch", or the mum who drowns them one by one in the bathtub to "save them".

Teaching someone that they should never be a victim is just plain cruel, unless you also teach them what they can do to avoid becoming one.

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Response to TheMadMonk (Reply #117)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:38 AM

121. The fact that every man has it in himself to be and not be the things I mentioned

Is not the same thing as saying there was going to be a guarantee that every man would find the way to get to that place.
We as men need to find the way to get all of our brothers in life to choose to go there, to chose to be the best of themselves.

The key problem is that, for most of history, men were REWARDED(and continue to be rewarded) for embodying the most negative and destructive aspects of masculinity...strength was and is defined as the ability to inflict suffering, on the battlefield, at the hunt, or in the workplace. Toughness was and is defined by the capacity for heartlessness and inflexibility, for refusing to change or bend at ALL cost(think LBJ and Nixon on Vietnam externally...think Trump on our TV screens...think Biblical-style patriarch in the home. We've been trained and have trained ourselves, overall, to think that that the way to be a man is to be a brutal, destructive, soul-destroying bastard...a rapist not only physically, but socially, economically, and spiritually-to rip out our own hearts as soon as possible and to turn ourselves into stone.

Like any bad lesson that has been learned, all of this can be unlearned, can be untrained. We can free ourselves of it and free the world of it. We owe it to all those we share the planet with to do that work. It's a collective male responsibility.

The challenge is to reward and value the good, rather than the brutal and ugly. Men will then be much more likely to go to the good when the good is valued more than the bad in this world.

And of course, women should be taught to protect themselves for the forseeable future...no one would deny that...but it's disgusting to say that women should be given a greater responsibility for surviving rape culture than men are given for ending it. At this point, no one can expect to never be a victim, but everyone can expect that we, as men, will work to make the world where, at some point, everyone WILL be able to expect that.

Is there any reason NOT to try?

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #1)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:54 PM

73. Compare the amount of time invested in telling

the women how to not be raped, versus telling the men not to rape/what consent means, etc?

Let me know if it was even CLOSE.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #73)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:13 PM

77. Men should not have sex unless they have written permission, properly notarized

Anything else is subject to post hoc revocation.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #77)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:43 PM

83. Mocking rape and consent is truly breathtaking.

Wow. These threads truly illuminate.


FarCenter (11,286 posts)
77. Men should not have sex unless they have written permission, properly notarized

Anything else is subject to post hoc revocation.
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Response to FarCenter (Reply #77)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:48 PM

86. really? i simply teach my boys enthusiasm is required, and teach my niece to own her sexuality.

she wants sex, let it be know.

if they want sex, know she does.

everyone is happy.

wow, a tough one.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #77)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:03 PM

89. Meanwhile on planet earth...

That's some pretty ignorant shit, but hey, maybe you just forgot a sarcasm tag or something.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #89)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:07 PM

97. Sarcasm? Yes, sort of. Except consider the function of a public, legal marriage ceremony.

Communally recognized agreement to have sex is part of the vows.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #97)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:02 PM

103. Those vows do not, however, mean one partner MUST have sex whenever the other demands it.

Husbands can be and are prosecuted for raping their wives.

You do agree that this is as it should be, don't you?

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #97)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:17 PM

105. there's no such thing as a legal marriage ceremony

The ceremony isn't what makes the legal marriage and never has in this country. The government legalizes the marriage and also legislates that one half of a married couple who forces sex on the other is guilty of rape. Certain religious groups have only been recognized to officiate a marriage ceremony where certain individuals from those groups are granted the power to sign off on the governmental marriage contract and put it to the government for processing in the same way a Justice of the Peace is granted that authority by the government. The contract is a government contract, not a religious one. There is no legal marriage without the government contract regardless if any ceremony is conducted.

I know of no religion that has any marriage vow that one half can rape the other either. This society has long since recognized that a woman is not the property of the man within a marriage to do with whatever he likes including forcing sex on her at those times she doesn't want to have sex.

There are and always have been legal marriages with or without any ceremony where the couple is not going to be having any sex with each other... marriages of "convenience" and marriages where one or both in the partnership are not physically capable of having sex. Those people are still permitted to marry by both religious groups and the government. No one ever asks whether or not the people in the partnership are going to be having sex or not - it's not their business and why no marriage contract stipulates that there must be sex at all. It is only society that makes the assumption concerning which couples who marry are likely or not likely to be having sex with each other.

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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #105)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:05 PM

109. The legal ceremony is the one where the signing of the document is done

This is typically after the exchange of vows presided over by some secular or religious personage, and it is the real legal act including the witnessing of the act by two others, such as the best man and the maid of honor.

Rape can certainly occur within marriage. However, it is a lot harder for the woman to falsely charge the man with rape, since such a charge would require some physical evidence of violence. A bride is unlikely to successfully charge the groom with rape the morning after the wedding simply on the basis of his DNA in her vagina.

Some religions do not consider a marriage valid without sexual intercourse. Catholics regard a failure to consummate the marriage as a ground for annulment on the basis that the marriage did not exist.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #109)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:15 PM

112. falsely charge? nt

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #112)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:57 AM

133. You know, "legitimate rape."

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #109)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:24 AM

119. I have no idea what you are on about, but I'm sure whatever it is

you're wrong.

Hypothetically, If my wife said 'no' and I plied her with say, booze, and then did things to her while she was unconscious, a marriage is no protection against a rape charge.

Physical violence is not required.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #97)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:21 AM

118. Not in my wedding it wasn't.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #77)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:55 AM

132. Wow.

Just Wow!

You should come with a warning sign because you clearly DON'T GIVE A SHIT whether or not it's consensual. Making rape "jokes" on DU. Now I truly have seen it all on this board.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:48 PM

6. I think we should teach both, but I completely

agree with her point and recc'ed it off to the greatest page.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:55 PM

8. Then there are DAs who refuse to prosecute sexual assault cases!!!

Even with a lot of evidence.



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Response to Manifestor_of_Light (Reply #8)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:59 PM

10. and police forces that will not file a report, or downgrade, or take a great charge. nt

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Response to Manifestor_of_Light (Reply #8)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:00 AM

134. Or plea bargain it down

so severely that the punishment ends up being a slap on the wrist whereby the perpetrator is then free to go off and do it again to some other unsuspecting woman. Lived that one.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:06 PM

18. I think they should be teaching both.

Some of us men, such as myself, wouldn't rape under any circumstance. Others are the mirror opposite and look for any opportunity to do so. Would it not be a good idea for freshmen women to know ways of limiting those opportunities?

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #18)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:08 PM

21. i do teach both, with nieces and there part to be aware and my boys and what society teaches them

and the wrong in it. and also awares for them to be aware.

also what society teaches my nieces as far as their expected role and the wrong in that.

i do it all the way around and back again.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:20 PM

33. The college I went to taught both.

 

I think it is a little naive to think any institution can stop all rapists. Does she think just telling a rapist to not rape will work? That's a bit naive and in my view gives the rapist control which is what rape is really about. It is about control and violence and not sex.

The best action is to be proactive and I see nothing wrong with that.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:22 PM

37. Point. Set. Match.

WELCOME TO DU!!

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:23 PM

38. I never know what to say about this issue.

Obviously. There needs to be a "don't rape class," at freshman orientation too.

I don't know what they say in the class, but if it "dress appropriately," or "act more ladylike" then I agree with her protest 2000-percent.

But,

Please tell me, and this lesson would be good for all crimes, what is wrong with telling youngsters how they can protect themselves and take preventive action? Like:

Go to social events in a group with people you trust
Don't get too wasted, but if you do have a member in your group be sober, a DD.
Try not to be with someone you don't know alone.
When meeting someone new, drive yourself and meet in a public space.
Know your rights, it is Ok to say no.
Carry pepper spray, or other self defense items.
Never accept a drink from a stranger.
Always defend your boundaries, even with people you know
Always report anything that crosses the line, it is not your fought.

Stuff like that. What we need in our society is to understand the difference between "blame" and teaching a healthy internal locus of control.

And by all means TEACH guys the no raping class; too many of them are idiots with crazy beliefs.

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Response to Springslips (Reply #38)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:32 PM

47. You're talking about a COMMON SENSE class!

I agree 100%, except for point 2. It is never okay to hand over control. "Too wasted" is unacceptable. I was taught (and went on to teach my daughter) that you ALWAYS must assume that you are responsible for your own transportation and be in a fit condition to drive if you must. Being "too wasted" puts you at the mercy of others who may not have your best interest in mind.

I'm in no way abrogating common sense in this thread; I just think that rape is embedded in our culture and needs to be rooted out. As I said downthread, the guy who raped me probably still doesn't realize it.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #47)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:00 PM

61. You make a good point.

They can't and shouldn't teach that.

But it does happen and happen a lot; if you are going to lose control at least protect yourself and have some sober enough to protect you.

I hope you are you giving yourself plenty of self compassion, being trespass like that can do a lot of damage long after the event; I am sure you know that, but it nice to have it reinforced from someone else.

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Response to Springslips (Reply #61)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:23 PM

66. Thank you.

Instead of beating myself up for using poor judgment, I try to channel those feelings into educating people of all ages about gender issues and hidden biases. I have a long way to go in my own personal growth, but I hope I am moving in the right direction.

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Response to Springslips (Reply #38)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:34 PM

81. Sadly, many young women going off to college apparently don't get this advice from parents

or if they do get "the talk", they don't believe their parents. It's a tough issue, because for many girls/young women who go away to college or move out from the familial home, their first foray into independence often includes stepping across many lines..some of them potentially dangerous.

I do think that the recent "crops" of young people are more savvy than those of my era (freshman in college in 1968). Things seemed more mysterious then, and the urge to experiment was overpowering to many..

I am 63 and most of my friends throughout the years have had experiences of date-rape...near date-rape, and for many of us, downright "unfriendly" plain ole rape.

Drinking & drugs often present the "opportunity", and sometimes that's all it takes

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Response to SoCalDem (Reply #81)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:50 PM

87. my niece in college says there are groups of older students that go to the parties

to help where needed....

it is a very interesting concept.

she doesnt drink.... so she sees herself as one that keeps her eyes open and has helped, total strangers, get home.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:24 PM

39. Yes. Exactly. Where the hell are ethics in our education system?

 

Why aren't we learning ethics, empathy and reason?

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Response to Taverner (Reply #39)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:25 PM

95. Because it's not on the test. nt

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Response to laundry_queen (Reply #95)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:27 PM

96. exactly nt

 

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:43 PM

54. Both should be taught.

Men need to be taught that no means no and drunkeness does not equal consent.

Women need to be taught to avoid situations that put themselves at risk unnecessarily.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:43 PM

55. This is one of those incendiary things where more info is needed.

And as such, I won't rec it. I'm not anti-Feminism by any means, but...

"How to Avoid Getting Raped" could mean anything from horrible ("Don't wear slutty clothing, ya sluts!") to actually useful ("Take a cab if you've had a few drinks; know your route home ahead of time, etc.") The former category is undeniably offensive, and I think everyone here knows it. But if you're on you're own in a large city for the first time in your young life, the latter category is simply being smart and safe--my girlfriend wasn't at all insulted when she moved to Brooklyn and her roommate told her which empty, warehouse-lined streets to avoid late at night, regardless of her attire. But again, we don't know the details.

As for the starkly worded "Don't Rape," it's illegal and most people smart enough to be at college know it's illegal. If you're 18 years old and you don't understand that yet, why would a lecture from your freshman college orientation change your mind? If someone set 18-year-old me down in a room with other guys and told me "You know, you really shouldn't be thinking about raping people," I'd be insulted as hell. But again, we don't know the details.

Now, if she means "no means no" education, she has a point, I guess--although that isn't strictly a safety issue and thus really doesn't fall under the responsibility of freshman orientation, which (last time I went through it) was mostly about getting you through the next four years in one piece. It's more in the realm of High School Health, which I remember covered sexual assault pretty thoroughly. Should they cover this issue just in case young men didn't receive this education? And then go on to cover other issues like drugs and suicide and gun violence and...this is ORIENTATION. Usually organized by student volunteers. Their responsibility for the decisions legally-adult students choose to make over the last 4 years is LIMITED at best. BUT. ONCE AGAIN. WE DON'T KNOW THE DETAILS of this college and this young woman.

I'm anti-rape and pro-woman, but I dislike hollow context-free self-righteousness for its own sake. And I'm bored at work, which explains why this went on so long.

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Response to Bicoastal (Reply #55)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:59 PM

59. Clearing up ethical ambiguities a college freshman may never have been confronted with

"Don't Rape," it's illegal and most people smart enough to be at college know it's illegal. If you're 18 years old and you don't understand that yet, why would a lecture from your freshman college orientation change your mind?"

Clearing up ethical ambiguities a college freshman may never have been confronted with, i.e., the course may assist their judgements and their decisions when dealing with an extremely intoxicated young lady.

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Response to Bicoastal (Reply #55)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:57 PM

74. There are a significant number of boys from other cultures on campus that have varying expectations

Part of multi-culturalism is that different cultures have different standards for sexual interactions.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:45 PM

57. Until they do, maybe carrying these in your sword belt might help.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:02 PM

62. I posted this pic a day before you...

...and the conversation that ensued was just as obnoxious.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021898292

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #62)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:30 PM

67. You really do learn a lot about where people's true belief systems lie.

It's frightening, yet illuminating.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:07 PM

63. This argument isn't getting any cleverer with repetition

This same argument can be made about defensive driving. Shouldn't we be teaching other people to drive properly rather than teaching me how to anticipate the fact that they run lights, can't stay in their lane, don't know what the turn signal is for, etc.?

The point of defensive driving is not to shift responsibility to victims. It is an acknowledgment of the fact that the dangerous driver exists, despite our efforts to reduce such driving. And there is no injustice or slight in teaching reasonable persons how to best deal with that fact.

The fact my car door has a lock is not an implicit endorsement of auto theft. It is a recognition of the fact that aberrations exist despite our efforts to eliminate them.

It is an excellent thing to educate men to not commit sexual violence but it will not eliminate the problem because most rapists have something wrong with them beyond having never been told to not rape.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #63)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:09 PM

91. You raise an excellent point, except:

There is nothing "wrong" with a young man who thinks he's entitled to sex after he's had a date or three with a girl. Nothing wrong that can't be fixed, I mean. He simply needs to have it explained to him, maybe 20 or 30 times that you're never "entitled" to sex, ever.

It involves broadening our definition of rape, and it will take time. But I think it can be done.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #91)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:00 AM

116. Entitled to sex?

Maybe I'm just different, but I've never felt entitled to sex. Of course I've always been shy around girls so that may have something to do with the fact that I don't feel entitled to anything. I know there are guys out there who do think they are entitled, it just pisses me off that so many guys still hold that view.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #116)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:31 AM

127. you know what. good point.

i think we tend to do a broad brush with that. a lot of men do feel entitled to sex. a lot of men do not. i always choose fun, good, nice, respectful men to hang with. not a single one of the felt that. they were appreciative when we had sex. but none felt entitled. i simply would not be around a man that had that attitude.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:34 PM

70. Yup.

That sends a terrible message to young women...

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:45 PM

72. Personal physical safety is a valid life skill.

Actually, it should be taught in high school.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:12 PM

76. Don't LOOK like a victim

By that I don't mean what you are wearing. Look like you have a RIGHT to be where you are. NEVER not meet the glaze of anyone looking at you. Glare right back at them becase YOU have a right, just as much as any male, to be where you are.

As a young woman, I went all over NYC, riding the subways all hours, from the South Bronx to Bed Sty. I had a friend who was a 3rd Degree Black Belt and gave me this advice. She was absolutely right. If you think you will be a victim, you will be. REFUSE to be a victim, and you won't be.

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #76)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:46 PM

85. "Refusing to be a victim" isn't going to keep you safe in any situation

It's not like you're given a choice to be a victim or not, and you can say, "Oh sure, victimize me," or "No, I refuse to be victimized." They don't ask permission.

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #76)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:56 PM

100. I'm sorry, but that's a bunch of victim blaming bullshit and I won't stand for it.

I was raped in my own bed, while suffering a high fever due to pneumonia. I guess I didn't do a good enough job of mean mugging my attacker in my more lucid moments.

Rape is not a force of nature, rape is a conscious choice to disrespect another person. It is almost always committed by people the victim knows and trusts. Advice based on warding off weirdos in alleys is less than useless because almost no rape is the sort of stranger rape committed by weirdos in alleys. In fact it serves to make life more difficult for women who suffer rape under the more usual non-stranger, non-alley circumstances.

Telling women that it's their fault for not being assertive enough or "looking like a victim" or avoiding eye contact is woman blaming bullshit. Rape is not caused by meek women or lack of eye contact. Rape is caused by men putting their dicks in women who don't consent. THE END.

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #100)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:02 PM

102. +a million

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #100)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:08 PM

110. Thank you.

All this, yes.

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #100)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:45 PM

114. THIS THIS THIS

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:29 PM

80. THAT just pisses me off. nt

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:37 PM

98. 10 tips to end rape




This is from Rape Crisis Scotland.

http://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/about/


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Response to ornotna (Reply #98)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:37 AM

120. Hear! Hear!

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Response to ornotna (Reply #98)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:07 AM

129. very good!

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Response to ornotna (Reply #98)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:51 AM

131. THIS needs to be a seperate post

because after reading the responses it is clear that a few (men and women) in this thread just DON'T SEEM TO GET IT.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:50 PM

99. If someone, anyone does not want sex...male or female...young or old...say NO. NO. NO.

Kick. Scream. No. No. No. No. That's Freshman Orientation for both sexes, IMHO. No means No.

If that doesn't work, no poster on the wall or procedure in the company handbook or parsing of jargon or law on the books will help until it's too late. If parents have not taught their young men to respect No ... the rights of others, female or male, then it is up to the the law.

The next step, if necessary, is to report it. Hard as that might be, No means No. I seem to be repeating myself.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:28 PM

106. I agree, but don't you tell your daughters to be safe?

I teach my sons that no means no. If I had a daughter, I would teach her to use good judgement to stay safe. Wouldn't you?

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Response to rainin (Reply #106)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:17 PM

113. yes... i teach both all sides to keep all safe in all ways. why would i hold back on

Knowledge and info.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:40 AM

122. Avoid? So now it's back on the women.

There shouldn't be any "avoid" like it's on her to not be raped.

I smell a rant...yes I do.

Seriously, they "teach" how not to be raped. Like everything they do is subject to male consideration. LOL! Okay, I guess that's in response to the glut of male idiots admitted to a school that haven't been raised right. Here's the thing...mom, dad, raise your kid right. Don't be a breeder who doesn't follow up. Compassion, empathy, equality...teach these things. Then we might not need classes on not being raped for women.

Teach? It's on you parents. Don't breed, raise properly. And men, and I speak to you as one, rape...you just stopped being a man, and are nothing but shit. Know the difference and embrace it.

Lastly, rape is violence. And violence may beget violence. Payback can be a real bitch.

The *b* word may get this deleted, so have at it until.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:45 AM

123. There was a serial rapist on the loose while I was at college. Turns out: NOT a student.

For nearly a year, a criminal terrorized women walking alone at night near campus. "Educating" the male student body didn't protect anyone. The rapist was coming from outside the community.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:43 AM

130. The university should teach both.

Yes, we all should be able to walk down the street alone at any time, day or not, without worrying about being attacked.

Unfortunately, that world doesn't exist. Until then, we should all learn to protect ourselves as best we can.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:53 AM

135. Rape is illegal

 

The society has made laws that tell everyone not to rape. You can get into a lot of trouble. Someone who knows this and rapes anyway is probably troubled themselves.

I do think it's important for women to know that they do have responsibility for what happens to them. It makes a lot of sense to orient young women who may be on their own for the first time about the dangers they may face in their new enviroment. Being disgusted won't make the dangers go away.

If a rich man wears his wealth openly in a dangerous part of town then he should expect to be mugged. Despite the fact that it is not legal, muggings happen. It is important to know how to stay safe.

Why should it be different for anyone else?

PS I'm sorry that you have to live in a sexist world, but you will function better if you accept it for what it is.

And what would you cover in a Don't Rape class anyway? How many times and different ways can you point out that rape is illegal and they don't need any reasons to not commit a crime?

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Response to Eyes of the World (Reply #135)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 08:45 AM

136. how many shows do you watch growing up the boys gigglin' amongst themselves giving girls booze until

they are just right? there are even "cutsey" little sayings men have made up for it. how many times in the many many times a boy sees this, does another man say.... fuck no, that would be rape?

ya, tell me how there is NOTHING to learn.

how about yale university, young men walking thru freshman pod with a cutsey little chant, no means yes.

Ah, college in New England in October: A time of tossing footballs on leafy campus quads, flasks of bourbon passed around at the football game, and screaming along with your fellow fraternity pledges about rape and sodomy. On Wednesday night a group of pledges at the Yale chapter Delta Kappa Epsilon—where our former president George W. Bush once branded a young man—marched around Old Campus (home to the majority of Yale’s freshman women) chanting, "No Means Yes, Yes Means Anal." Here's the sickening video (which is mainly audio, because it was dark):



For good measure they also reportedly chanted "Fucking sluts." The Yale Daily News reports that they also yelled stuff like, "My name is Jack, I’m a necrophiliac, I fuck dead women." Our future CEO's of America in action! Of course, the DKE president has apologized for "the serious lapse in judgment" and declared that the fraternity does not condone sexual violence. But The Women’s Center at Yale isn't placated, and calls the incident “hate speech” and “an active call for sexual violence.”

And Good Feed reports that Broad Recognition, a Yale feminist publication, is demanding administrative action against DKE. "Yale women are not new to fraternity misogyny, nor are we a stranger to our administration sitting on their hands and doing absolutely nothing about it," Hannah Zeavin wrote in an editorial.

http://gothamist.com/2010/10/15/video_yale_frat_boys_chant_no_means.php



how about amherst university our young men making up a tshirt of a near naked girl, roasting on a spit over a fire, with visible bruises.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/18/amherst-sexual-assault-tshirt-rape-sexual-violence_n_1982159.html

nah, our guys absolutely need no education. they got it down.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #136)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:07 AM

137. It is wrong to characterize most college men in that way

Yeah, no doubt about it, those in that group at Yale are idiots and dangerous to boot.

But there are lots of responsible young men on college campuses who would condemn them as well and are helpful and sincere in their desire and efforts to prevent such things as rape. I know that when my daughter attended Rutgers there were a group of young men all over campus, I think they called themselves the "Green Lantern Men" who volunteered each night to escort women walking on campus from one point to another to prevent crimes and my daughter and the young women there greatly appreciated their efforts.

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Response to Jersey Devil (Reply #137)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:14 AM

138. really? this is what you got from the post? that i am calling all men rapist? EDUCATION

this is about education. not being foolish or protective on thinking that we are not living in a society that does not promote this. and that we do not want to throw these kids away as monsters, but educate and enlighten them to the realities that they are not seeing in their society.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:16 AM

139. Here are a few techniques you might consider

 









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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:52 AM

140. There's nothing wrong with knowing how to avoid undesirable situations.

 

For example if I walk around making displays of large amounts of money where I work, I will likely get robbed. If I walk around the wrong parts of town at certain times alone, I'll probably get sexually assaulted. However, neither of these outcomes would mean that I deserved it or was to blame... someone ELSE broke the law and violated the social contract that exists in our society. There are a myriad of actions that I could do which may predispose myself to bad situations. However regardless of how one acts, so long as they are acting lawfully, the victim is never to blame.

As to why the young lady's school does not teach "Don't Rape"... that would be a waste of time.
Society teaches us this lesson completely free of tuition. It's called "The Law"

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:39 PM

141. Amen and furthermore...

let's add a class in How to Keep Your Dick from Getting Someone Pregnant and If You Do Get a Woman Pregnant Here's How to Plan for Your Child's Future

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