HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » "I need feminism bec...

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 09:28 PM

"I need feminism because..."

118 replies, 20597 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 118 replies Author Time Post
Reply "I need feminism because..." (Original post)
WilliamPitt Nov 2012 OP
forestpath Nov 2012 #1
longship Nov 2012 #2
seabeyond Nov 2012 #3
Bonobo Nov 2012 #4
demmiblue Nov 2012 #7
HiPointDem Nov 2012 #12
Hekate Nov 2012 #13
HiPointDem Nov 2012 #16
LisaLynne Nov 2012 #23
seabeyond Nov 2012 #27
question everything Nov 2012 #32
lapislzi Nov 2012 #34
question everything Nov 2012 #49
lapislzi Nov 2012 #64
dark forest Dec 2012 #113
question everything Dec 2012 #114
seabeyond Nov 2012 #35
question everything Nov 2012 #50
seabeyond Nov 2012 #56
femrap Nov 2012 #62
dark forest Dec 2012 #112
seabeyond Nov 2012 #26
Deep13 Nov 2012 #14
HiPointDem Nov 2012 #17
Deep13 Nov 2012 #19
HiPointDem Nov 2012 #20
Deep13 Nov 2012 #47
seabeyond Nov 2012 #28
KitSileya Nov 2012 #31
seabeyond Nov 2012 #37
HiPointDem Nov 2012 #52
seabeyond Nov 2012 #57
CrispyQ Nov 2012 #41
seabeyond Nov 2012 #43
LanternWaste Nov 2012 #92
noiretextatique Nov 2012 #79
HiPointDem Nov 2012 #84
noiretextatique Nov 2012 #86
HiPointDem Nov 2012 #88
noiretextatique Nov 2012 #105
CrispyQ Nov 2012 #40
wickerwoman Nov 2012 #18
LisaLynne Nov 2012 #24
mythology Nov 2012 #78
wickerwoman Nov 2012 #95
Odin2005 Nov 2012 #22
seabeyond Nov 2012 #25
Zorra Nov 2012 #48
HiPointDem Nov 2012 #51
Zorra Nov 2012 #81
femrap Nov 2012 #61
HiPointDem Nov 2012 #63
Whisp Nov 2012 #103
nolabear Nov 2012 #8
femrap Nov 2012 #60
LanternWaste Nov 2012 #90
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #5
LadyHawkAZ Nov 2012 #6
lumberjack_jeff Nov 2012 #9
seabeyond Nov 2012 #29
lumberjack_jeff Nov 2012 #30
seabeyond Nov 2012 #38
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #42
seabeyond Nov 2012 #44
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #45
KoKo Nov 2012 #72
ChaoticTrilby Nov 2012 #94
AngryAmish Nov 2012 #55
sufrommich Nov 2012 #54
bluerum Nov 2012 #10
DeSwiss Nov 2012 #11
x2 vancouverite Nov 2012 #15
Odin2005 Nov 2012 #21
CrispyQ Nov 2012 #33
Solly Mack Nov 2012 #36
Zorra Nov 2012 #39
Deep13 Nov 2012 #46
seabeyond Nov 2012 #58
seabeyond Nov 2012 #59
sally5050 Nov 2012 #53
dorkulon Nov 2012 #65
AlexSatan Nov 2012 #68
WilliamPitt Nov 2012 #66
WilliamPitt Nov 2012 #67
MadrasT Nov 2012 #74
hack89 Nov 2012 #69
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #73
aandegoons Nov 2012 #70
regjoe Nov 2012 #71
WilliamPitt Nov 2012 #75
Dash87 Nov 2012 #91
regjoe Nov 2012 #96
seabeyond Nov 2012 #76
regjoe Nov 2012 #97
seabeyond Nov 2012 #99
white_wolf Nov 2012 #77
seabeyond Nov 2012 #80
ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #87
regjoe Nov 2012 #98
seabeyond Nov 2012 #100
white_wolf Nov 2012 #104
Sheldon Cooper Nov 2012 #83
gollygee Nov 2012 #85
LadyHawkAZ Nov 2012 #93
applegrove Nov 2012 #82
MrSlayer Nov 2012 #89
get the red out Nov 2012 #101
no_hypocrisy Nov 2012 #102
FightForMichigan Nov 2012 #106
no_hypocrisy Nov 2012 #110
FightForMichigan Nov 2012 #111
nadine_mn Nov 2012 #107
LittleBlue Nov 2012 #108
FightForMichigan Nov 2012 #109
Heidi Dec 2012 #115
JustABozoOnThisBus Dec 2012 #116
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #117
JustABozoOnThisBus Dec 2012 #118

Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 09:30 PM

1. Powerful image.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 10:55 PM

2. R&K for this one. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 10:56 PM

3. that says it all. very precise. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 10:57 PM

4. Should all self-defense classes be stopped?

Instead of people taking karate or other self-defense classes, they could just ask muggers and other criminals to enroll in "Don't Attack" classes, I guess?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bonobo (Reply #4)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 11:15 PM

7. Are you that daft as to misinterpret the meaning of this young woman's message? WHOOSH! n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to demmiblue (Reply #7)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 11:57 PM

12. I understand her point, but really, is there anyone who doesn't know that rape is wrong?

 

I don't think rapists rape because they're ignorant of that point.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HiPointDem (Reply #12)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 12:25 AM

13. An awful lot of guys are not taught that No means No

Some undergrads make a game of getting girls drunk. Some think it's not rape if she doesn't get hurt, even if she's passed out drunk.

I could go on. But all you have to do is look at the content of "How to avoid rape" classes and realize where the ignorance and violence lie.

So yes, mandatory classes for young men entering college might include information on what counts as rape, and that No means No.

Our local university does freshman classes on alcohol (because alcohol poisoning can kill, and because we lose a couple of kids every year when they fall off the cliff next to campus while partying). I'm pretty sure they include the rape thing, too. I hope the kids (both genders) are listening.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hekate (Reply #13)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 12:57 AM

16. Do you think there are really a lot of men who don't know it's wrong to have sex with

 

someone they've just gotten drunk? Considering the reason they get the girl drunk is so that they can have sex with her?

I think they know it's wrong. They just do it anyway. Because they want to, like the sense of power it gives them, because they despise women, whatever.

Most people who take advantage of others do it while knowing it's wrong, imo. There are gray areas, yes. But mostly, people knowingly do wrong.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HiPointDem (Reply #16)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:27 AM

23. I see your point, but sadly,

as someone who works closely with students at the university level, there are young men, many of them, actually, who don't know "no means no". Especially, in the cases of aquaintance rape. You are right that there are many out there who know it's wrong and do it anyway, for a myriad of reasons, but there are those who do need such education, from people they respect. I think lately things have maybe been getting a little better, just with the rise in awareness, but honestly, it is still a huge problem.

The point of this message is that why is the responsibility always placed on women? "Don't wear that." "Don't stay out late." "Don't go anywhere alone." Those things don't seem like a big deal until you've really had to live that way. And ultimately, it does push this underlying idea that somehow it's the woman's fault, that women need to be better at controlling their own and others behavior and if they did, there would be no more rape instead of focusing on changing the underlying attitudes that men are socialized with that foster rape.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LisaLynne (Reply #23)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:55 AM

27. so much in society and media tell our boys this is a "mans" job. one way or another, it is all

about the sex. boys, just being boys.

i think absolutely that we condition our boys to not get it, or see the wrong of it.

yale.... chanting thru the pod, no means yes.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LisaLynne (Reply #23)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:04 AM

32. It is not just rape, but violence

I think that boys, starting at elementary school, should be taught that girls and women should never be used as a punching bag, or worse, when they say no. No to relationship, to marriage, to dating.

Rape is only a part of our society. There are too many instances when men beat or murder and even kill the children because the woman said No.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to question everything (Reply #32)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:47 AM

34. Rape IS violence

Dressed in sexual clothing. It is the act of taking something from another by force or coercion. Something that the rapist feels entitled to take. Something that maybe the rapist has been conditioned to believe they are entitled to, regardless of the wishes of the raped.

That's violence. Nothing sexy about it. Sex is just the tool one uses to take what they think they're allowed to have.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lapislzi (Reply #34)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:35 PM

49. Of course it is

but why limit violence to rape only? Rape often happens to strangers, to someone just jogging in the park. And the criminal may never be found.

But we cannot ignore non-rape violence by men who cannot accept not being part of a woman's life and murder her, or beat her because she is "his." How dare she tell him to go away, that she no longer wants to be "his?" And too often family members of these women, new boyfriends get murdered, too.

Yes, I do include O.J. Simpson in this category.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to question everything (Reply #49)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:00 PM

64. Oh, I totally agree.

My point was not to trivialize the other kinds of violence that are embedded in our tropes and culture. Absolutely not.

I was just correcting the common misconception that rape is about sex, which it clearly isn't. It's about power and control. Anyone who says differently is selling something.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lapislzi (Reply #64)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:00 AM

113. i don't see

where "power and control" and "sex" are mutually exclusive at all.

For a lot of men, being in a sense of control is very arousing. Other wise, why is there so much truly brutal porn out there?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to dark forest (Reply #113)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:36 PM

114. And to highlight this point, I've just heard about the football player

who killed the mother of his child and then himself.

Why? If he has problems with her - I did not bother to read the details - why kill her?

But this is the problem with too many men. They are frustrated, humiliated, depressed - whatever - so they take it on the women in their lives and, too often, on the families of these women.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to question everything (Reply #32)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:49 AM

35. i will take this a step further. my experience with two boys, girls do a lot of hitting, pushing,

kicking and punching. the teachers tend to tell the boys that it is not a big deal, or punish the boys if they protect themselves. HUGE problem when boys were in elementary schools. an imbalance of power at that age. we are teaching boys to NEVER hit a girl. and not vice versa. we need to address that as a culture.

basically telling little boys to man up

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #35)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:36 PM

50. You are correct. There is violence against men and boys

by other men and boys, by girls and women.

But most of the cases it is the man who cannot take a no for an answer. Testosterone may play a role here.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to question everything (Reply #50)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:23 PM

56. privilege over testosterone. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #35)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:38 PM

62. Why

 

do I bother reading these threads filled w/ people who *#^@#&@()_)@#&&$%@(@( &^#!#$%^&*()_)(*&^%$#@!

snip

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LisaLynne (Reply #23)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:55 AM

112. Ya know,

I don't think that it is necessarily that people think that the woman is to blame for getting raped in these cases. It is that the woman is the person that is going to have to live with the consequences of being raped.

Given due process, and all, the rapist may face only minimal, or no, consequences.

So, yes, perhaps young men should receive instruction in learning not to rape. Maybe it will do some good with most, or at least some of them. But not all.

I think women should also receive instruction in how to defend themselves, what resources are available if they can't, and what situations pose the greatest danger of them being raped, so that they can avoid them, if they so choose.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HiPointDem (Reply #16)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:53 AM

26. yes. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HiPointDem (Reply #12)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 12:38 AM

14. Actually, a lot of them don't.

A lot of people think there is a gray area where the woman is drunk or otherwise badgered into compliance. Almost everyone knows rape is wrong, but not everyone knows that what he is doing actually constitutes rape. An awful lot of defendants actually thought that the woman would melt in their arms once he got things started. Also, men need to create a culture where they will not tolerate rape or the company of a rapist. Look at that Kobe basketball guy. Couldn't the NBA find a player who was not under a cloud of rape allegations? Are people who want to play ball for a living rare? What message does it send to both young women and young men that such behavior is ignored if a guy can play a kids' game?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Deep13 (Reply #14)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 12:59 AM

17. i think most people who pressure others into doing things know it's wrong. i think most

 

people who use alcohol drugs to weaken other people's will to get something over on them know it's wrong. i think women who get men to do things for them by using the implied promise of relationship a/o sex know it's wrong too.

they just want what they want & are willing to take advantage of others to get it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HiPointDem (Reply #17)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 01:09 AM

19. I think it is more likely that one's internal narrative...

...is modified to make the situation okay. Everyone is innocent in his own mind.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Deep13 (Reply #19)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 01:12 AM

20. everyone will *claim* they're innocent. what they know in their gut is another question.

 

you've never claimed you were innocent while knowing you were guilty -- or at least, half-guilty? i have.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HiPointDem (Reply #20)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 01:33 PM

47. Well, that's the normal reaction.

One first has to have a clear understanding that the action in question is wrong. And their are a lot of people who really are never wrong in their own eyes. "She shouldn't be here" "...dressed like that" "...leading me on" "she knew what this was about" "I needed this" "I'll never see her again" "she enjoyed it" "should have put up more of a fight" etc, etc.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HiPointDem (Reply #17)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:05 AM

28. we have to be clear and teach both, our boys and girls. it is a societal conditioning issue.

Societal Attitudes Supporting Rape

- A survey of 6,159 college students enrolled at 32 institutions in the U.S. found the following: (ref 4)

54% of the women surveyed had been the victims of some form of sexual abuse; more than one in four college-aged women had been the victim of rape or attempted rape;

57% of the assaults occurred on dates;

73% of the assailants and 55% of the victims had used alcohol or other drugs prior to the assault;

25% of the men surveyed admitted some degree of sexually aggressive behavior;

42% of the victims told no one.

- In a survey of high school students, 56% of the girls and 76% of the boys believed forced sex was acceptable under some circumstances. (ref 5)

- A survey of 11-to-14 year-olds foundref 5)

51% of the boys and 41% of the girls said forced sex was acceptable if the boy, "spent a lot of money" on the girl;

31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experience;

87% of boys and 79% of girls said sexual assault was acceptable if the man and the woman were married;

65% of the boys and 47% of the girls said it was acceptable for a boy to rape a girl if they had been dating for more than six months.

- In a survey of male college students:

35% anonymously admitted that, under certain circumstances, they would commit rape if they believed they could get away with it (ref 6,7).

One in 12 admitted to committing acts that met the legal definitions of rape, and 84% of men who committed rape did not label it as rape.(ref 6,7)

- In another survey of college males: (ref 8)

43% of college-aged men admitted to using coercive behavior to have sex, including ignoring a woman's protest, using physical aggression, and forcing intercourse.

15% acknowledged they had committed acquaintance rape; 11% acknowledged using physical restraints to force a woman to have sex.

- Women with a history of rape or attempted rape during adolescence were almost twice as likely to experience a sexual assault during college, and were three times as likely to be victimized by a husband. (ref 9)

- Sexual assault is reported by 33% to 46% of women who are being physically assaulted by their husbands.(ref 10)


http://www.uic.edu/depts/owa/sa_rape_support.html

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #28)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:58 AM

31. I wish I could rec your post too.

It certainly is eye-opening (and jaw-dropping, as it were) to see these statistics.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KitSileya (Reply #31)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:50 AM

37. isnt it? this is what tells us as a culture, society, we condition. we knew it. this shows. how many

parents discuss these attitudes with kids, of both genders.

discussion and awareness is VERY effective.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #37)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:46 PM

52. as with drug use, it isn't very effective at all.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HiPointDem (Reply #52)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:25 PM

57. are you serious? bull fuckin' shit. of course it is. it is the greatest tool a parent has.

wow.



odds go way way way up for a child if a parent actually does their job from day one. and has tons more influence over the child than peers, when connected, a unit, providing an environment that is safe and secure.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #28)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 12:03 PM

41. The 11-14 year old segment is seriously disturbing.

- A survey of 11-to-14 year-olds foundref 5)

51% of the boys and 41% of the girls said forced sex was acceptable if the boy, "spent a lot of money" on the girl;

31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experience;

87% of boys and 79% of girls said sexual assault was acceptable if the man and the woman were married;

65% of the boys and 47% of the girls said it was acceptable for a boy to rape a girl if they had been dating for more than six months.



The first stat also shows how our society values money - we excuse all kinds of bad behavior for those with money.

These numbers do not represent individual parenting. This is the influence of an entire culture, a rape culture.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CrispyQ (Reply #41)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 12:42 PM

43. your last sentence was right on. and that is why it is important that we say loudly, NO, there are

a lot of our children that are not taught what rape and not rape is. society teaches them what their privilege dictates and what womens roles are. if a parent does not jump in, head first, addressing these issues regularly when they come up, why the hell would we expect our kids to be able to do it innately, with all society shows them.

you know, our children are being raised on rape porn, or the normalization of rape as entertainment. just a girls true fantasy. really.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #28)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:58 PM

92. That is truly eye-opening

"One in 12 admitted to committing acts that met the legal definitions of rape, and 84% of men who committed rape did not label it as rape..."

1 in 12 college males engaged in activities that met the legal definition of rape. That is mind-boggling, scary, and absurdly surprising to me. That's close to 10% of college males either too evil to be in college or too stupid to be in college (or both).

Yeesh!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HiPointDem (Reply #17)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:27 PM

79. i think you give people way to much credit

sociopaths, for example, probably don't know that hurting someone is wrong. people with no conscience and no empathy do not feel remorse about hurting others...they feel entitled to hurt others. i put rapists in this category, and that's includes all rapists, including the guys who put drugs in women's drinks.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to noiretextatique (Reply #79)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:05 PM

84. i believe the definition of sociopath is that they know intellectually but don't care.

 

and actually i don't think sociopaths are anything but an extreme manifestation of something that lurks in everyone.

morality is often situational; nice upstanding young men in wartime turn into murdering rapists, for example. ordinary people are more willing to behave badly to people they don't believe can retaliate, people they perceive as weaker, stupider, whatever. i've done it myself & am the first to admit it.

people have a shadow side.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HiPointDem (Reply #84)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:15 PM

86. i totally agree, and i will add: our culture really does a poor job

of educating people about rape, as evidenced by the GOP's team rape's slew of ignorant comments.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to noiretextatique (Reply #86)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:33 PM

88. i'll add that our culture is sociopathic, because it encourages people to profit by harming others.

 

and a lot of the time with clear knowledge that they are harming others.

kids don't learn not to rape because someone tells them rape is bad. they learn not to rape by absorbing an entire cultural complex about how to treat people and what the other *is*.

i continue to believe that the majority of teens & adults know rape is wrong. there may be some ambiguity about whether specific cases are "rape," but people learn through experience that being pressured and forced and attacked feels bad. it's wrong; that's why people feel not quite comfortable when they do it, whatever they tell themselves.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HiPointDem (Reply #88)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 03:58 PM

105. indeed

i totally agree.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Deep13 (Reply #14)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:52 AM

40. Outstanding response!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HiPointDem (Reply #12)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 01:06 AM

18. It's not just about the individual rapist,

it's about the culture that enables them- frat boys binge drinking, going to strip clubs, exposing themselves to women on the street... there are many groups of "men" where objectifying and disrespecting women is an acceptable way to have a good time on a Friday night and within that group there may be one or two men who woud actually rape a woman and five or six others who wouldn't but also wouldn't turn in a buddy they saw doing it. We could probably make some progress on the five or six so that they might intervene or drop out of the group or report the rape and support the woman's story.

I've worked with guys who might, on the surface, know that "rape is wrong" but who spend an awful lot of time and mental energy calculting how many drinks they would have to buy a girl before they could sleep with her. There's still quite a bit of borderline rapey behaviour that's far too acceptable in mainstream culture.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to wickerwoman (Reply #18)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:29 AM

24. You said it better than I did.

That's exactly the point I was trying to make. It's the culture that enables the behavior, so even if on their own, these guys might, if pressed say, "Yeah, rape is wrong" they need to be told "these behaviors are rape."

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to wickerwoman (Reply #18)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:25 PM

78. While I've never been to a strip club

I don't see how they enable rape and more than clubs where guys strip enable rape. And a quick scan of the available research doesn't support the claim that strip clubs are associated with rape or even any good studies that indicate they are associated with other crime.

If looking at naked people is inherently objectifying, and objectifying inherently contributes to rape, then you have to logically conclude that women who watch porn videos or go to male strip clubs also contribute to rape. That's not a ledge I'd stand on.

Personally I avoid strip clubs because their business model doesn't cater to people disinclined to spending increasing amounts of money. Likewise I avoid casinos.






Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mythology (Reply #78)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:50 PM

95. I don't think it's the strip clubs or porn,

I think it's the pack mentality and sense of entitlement that goes along with large groups of young men socially conditioned to feel that binge drinking combined with leering at, groping and otherwise sexual objectifying women equals a great night out. And the fact that this is written off as "boys being boys" instead of "assholes crossing a line who need to be set straight" is the source of the problem.

Getting rid of strip clubs or porn isn't going to get rid of rape, obviously, but making it socially unacceptable to disrespect women can create more positive peer pressure and surveillance which might help protect more women from rape.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HiPointDem (Reply #12)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:22 AM

22. There was a study some time ago saying 35% of college-age men...

would "Force a woman to have sex with them" if they could get away with it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HiPointDem (Reply #12)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:51 AM

25. yes. too many. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HiPointDem (Reply #12)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 01:38 PM

48. If someone *KNOWS* it is wrong, then why would they rape someone?

Maybe it's more like they've been told that it is wrong, but they don't really understand and believe that it is wrong, and they rape because they simply want to, and simply hope they don't get caught.

In their minds/consciences, their crime is not the act of raping someone. To them, their only crimes are getting caught, and punished, for raping someone. Later remorse is not due to the harm that they caused to another person, but only because they are personally being harmed because they are being punished for the harm they have caused.


Although I believe that there are flaws in Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, it appears to me that his theory is a fairly accurate overview of factors that comprise the developmental process of what is generally known as a "conscience". It may be that rapists are way down on this scale of "self actualization"; like toddlers, (and conservatives ~ sorry, I know I'm being bad, heehee)) they act upon unconsidered impulse rather than consideration based in a conscience based in a healthy developed ethical belief system.



It's possible that one of the reasons that some individuals who remain in the lower, tiers of this scale of self actualization is because they have not examined their thought processes with any serious and objective scrutiny, and subsequently never recognized the negative institutionalized and/or enculturated mores that comprise deeply rooted parts of their belief systems.

Institutionalized, enculturated misogyny, may also play a part in why some rapists rape women. They are told it is wrong to hate women, but many of the underlying misogynistic societal/cultural factors with which they have been imprinted in infancy and adolescence are so strongly rooted in their consciousness that they are unable to even recognize their own perception of women is as a group that is naturally inferior.

"The bible teaches that women brought sin and death into the world, that she precipitated the fall of the race, that she was arraigned before the judgment seat of Heaven, tried, condemned and sentenced. Marriage for her was to be a condition of bondage, maternity a period suffering and anguish, and in silence and subjection, she was to play the role of a dependent on man's bounty for all her material wants, and for all the information she might desire... Here is the Bible position of woman briefly summed up."
--Elizabeth Cady Stanton


It is very possible that, in our society, institutionalized/enculturated misogyny is primarily the product of widespread Judeo-Christan dogma, dogma that is illustrated in the examples below. These just a few examples among a multitude of examples of Judeo-Christian dogma, (and Islamic dogma as well), that perpetrates and promotes the continued institutionalization and enculturation of misogyny and homophobia in many modern societies.

"Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go." (Judges 19:24-25)


"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)


"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." (Leviticus 21)


"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean." (Leviticus 12:2)

"But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days." (Leviticus 12:5)


"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." (Ephesians 5:22-24)


"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)


And on and on and on and on, ad nauseum.

My point, relative to your question, is that maybe we need to adopt a new perspective and approach to understanding and educating all age groups about ethics, misogyny, homophobia, racism, etc. ~ because far too many individuals are apparently not getting the idea that these things they do, and why these things they do, are ethically wrong.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Zorra (Reply #48)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:42 PM

51. who is this enlightened 'we' that needs to 'educate' the other?

 

you seem to be making some distinction between intellectual knowing & gut knowing. will your 'education' turn intellectual knowing into gut knowing, or is it just more intellectualizing?

gut knowing doesn't come from education, i think.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HiPointDem (Reply #51)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:34 PM

81. This enlightened "we" refers to those of us who don't want to be raped, and who don't want anyone

else to be raped.

I suppose it is possible that some people are born with an intuitive ability to distinguish and understand right from wrong, if that is what "gut knowing" is, without ever have been taught anything about what is right or wrong; but I suspect this is pretty rare, and that basic "gut knowing" is actually a product of enculturation, or socialization ~ the adoption of the behavior patterns of the surrounding culture.

I believe that ethics are primarily learned principles, and that the evolution of conscience in the self begins at a very early age, and is developed through understanding.

Some people grow and evolve to the point where they self-actualize, and don't deliberately cause harm, because their consciousness/conscience understands that it is wrong to deliberately cause harm. In other words, they would not steal a billion dollars from someone even if they knew for sure that they would definitely never get caught or punished for doing so.

In contrast, some people may not deliberately harm simply because of fear that they will be punished for doing so. In other words they would happily steal $10 from someone if they knew they would never be caught or punished.

(I'm sorry, part of the work that I do part time nowadays is applied behavioral analysis and therapy. It is my job to figure out the motivations behind people's behavior, and how to help them have a better quality of life by showing them pathways to more socially appropriate, self rewarding behaviors, most often by using positive reinforcement, so I get a bit wordy sometimes when discussing human behavior. OK, wordy most of the time when I discuss human behavior. OK...all the time.)

Anyway, I believe that educating people from a very early age to help them understand ethics so that as many people as possible can more easily evolve a genuine sense of ethics, develop a self-actualized conscience, and therefore become happy individuals with a sense that they have a satisfying quality of life, is just as important, actually much more important, than teaching them basic math.

In other words, actually helping little Suzy realistically understand and process why something is right or wrong, rather than just telling her that something is right or wrong, or telling her that something is right or wrong simply because "God" says so, and that she is going to go to hell if she does not do what "God" wants her to do.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HiPointDem (Reply #12)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:35 PM

61. You are

 

a real piece of work.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to femrap (Reply #61)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:57 PM

63. well, so are you, then. happy holidays!

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to demmiblue (Reply #7)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:33 AM

103. yes, he is. n/t

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bonobo (Reply #4)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 11:21 PM

8. Not instead of, in addition to.

Teaching young men that young women are precious human beings who should be treated with the same care and respect that you yourself want and deserve seems to me to be all to the good.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bonobo (Reply #4)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:33 PM

60. I know

 

the Bonobo and you're no Bonobo.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bonobo (Reply #4)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:52 PM

90. Why precisely does the one deny the other?

Why precisely would the one (don't-orientations) deny the other (self defense classes)?

Another guess?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 10:59 PM

5. halle freakin lujah!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 11:05 PM

6. lots of good ones here too

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 11:22 PM

9. The fact that the students are 60% female influences their choice of message. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #9)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:09 AM

29. then what would be the reason when the number was much lower. it has ALWAYS been, how to prevent

rape. and it has NEVER been, dont rape.

so, how does your post jive with reality

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #29)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:48 AM

30. I don't think rapists rape because they forgot, or that no one ever told them, that it is wrong.

Rapists know that it is wrong and do it anyway.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #30)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:51 AM

38. where you are being obtuse is society conditioning both genders about behaviors that allow rape,

but, not defined as rape. just defined as roles we are suppose to play.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #38)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 12:14 PM

42. our society programs our men to think they have to be aggresive

Being a sensitive guy who cares about the feelings of a woman is considered sissy or gay. Some men also don't like it when they can't control women and tell them what to do as seen by how the republican men acted during the campaign calling Sandra Fluke a slut and saying that a woman's body can prevent a pregnancy after rape and if a pregnancy does occur it is God's will and that with modern technology there really is no situation in which the mother's life is in danger anymore. Rape victims are looked upon as gold digging sluts who are only out for money or revenge. Rape victims are still blamed for the way they dress like they some how brought it on themselves or that they deserved it. There is a pervasive disrespect toward women in this country. If we are to do anything about rape and domestic violence it is this cultural attitude toward women that must be addressed.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #42)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 12:44 PM

44. and now we have an effectively fun movement spreading the word that 45-75% of rape claims are false.

why should a boy take it seriously. why should a girl think she was raped or if she is confident in self worth enough to know she was rape, why say anything.

conditioning. none of this is who we are.

all of this is who we create.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #44)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 12:46 PM

45. exactly

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #30)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:39 PM

72. It's the seeking to DOMINATE...whatever the psychological background that

causes this...the will is to DOMINATE. If you checked rapists backgrounds you would probably see abuse of many of them in their past....and some just have the sociopathy on their own through a gene screw up. But, it's DOMINANCE for CRUELTY. To subjugate a person to their will.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #30)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:42 PM

94. Actually, you're wrong.

http://election.democraticunderground.com/10021898292#post28

Read all of that. Wow! A lot of people think that, in certain cases, rape is A-OK. Acceptable, even. In other words, "I think..." and "I don't think..." do not work as proper sources. Please, do the research next time. That tends to help.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #29)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:50 PM

55. Not when I was going to school in the 80s

the don't rape message was pretty clear to this lad (in freshman orientation).

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #9)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:48 PM

54. So what? nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 11:35 PM

10. Jeezuz. Talk about out of touch.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 11:54 PM

11. K&R

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 12:49 AM

15. DURec

 

But I hope that's not Lena Dunham in the photo!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:18 AM

21. K&R, saw this on FB

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:41 AM

33. k&r.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:49 AM

36. K&R

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:52 AM

39. Wow. Succinct, and poignant.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 01:28 PM

46. Does this only apply to legitimate rapes?

Because some women are so easily raped. And what if God wants her to have a rape baby? Will the asprin between the knees protect her from rape?

"everyone knows rape is wrong." Do they really?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Deep13 (Reply #46)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:27 PM

58. point. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Deep13 (Reply #46)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:28 PM

59. oh oh oh, and the MRA dude that says feminist are taking all the fun out of dating....

or some such rot

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:27 PM

65. THis is not an "either/or" thing.

2 long threads about this pic, really for nothing. EVERYONE should be taught that rape is wrong, how to stop it, how to stop it happening to you, to others, and how to stop others from doing it. The end.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to dorkulon (Reply #65)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:08 PM

68. +1000

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:40 PM

67. Y'know...

I've been fucking around on this forum for eleven and a half years. For a variety of reasons, that body of experience makes me want to believe the best about DU.

The fact that the discussion between post #4 and post #60 above was necessary is one of those cold-water-in-the-face moments.

When I posted this, I just simply expected any replies to be of the "Yeah," "Truth," or "Right on" variety.

The fact that the picture I posted ACTUALLY NEEDS A FUCKING EXPLANATION AND DEFENSE around here is tremendously revealing, and equally depressing.

To those who have stood this particular watch: OK. I get it. Late perhaps, but damn.

God fucking damn it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #67)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:58 PM

74. Continually dealing with this shit is exhausting. It truly is. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:16 PM

69. This really hits home for me

my daughter is a college freshman. Yes - we definitely need feminism.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hack89 (Reply #69)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:42 PM

73. my daughter will be a college freshman next year

It scares me more than when she first started dating.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:21 PM

70. This is what is wrong with our society.

We put the onus on the victim and not in improving society. We are stuck circling the drain so to speak.

fix robbers = lock doors not improve lives
fix rape = don't look female or be lucky enough to be born male not teaching respect from day one
fix education = more test and more failure not improving social structures and economic situations

Visit the gungeon and see how little peoples lives are worth to many members of our society. I believe we will never make the right step to reduce the reprehensible like rape until we adjust societies value of the human.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:21 PM

71. Misguided

 

You can't teach a rapist "don't rape," but you sure as hell can teach anybody safety to help avoid such situations.

Men are pigs. I have taught my daughter how to avoid and I hope like hell that her college will do the same.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to regjoe (Reply #71)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:02 PM

75. *sigh*

"You can't" is a surrender.

I hope for better things along the evolutionary chain than a surrender to the assumed inevitable.

But, yeah, for your daughter in the meantime: Eyes, Throat, Sternum, Balls. A good, hard shot to any of those ends the discussion. "Knee" is also an option, if she can kick it inside out.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #75)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:54 PM

91. A nice shot of pepper spray also does wonders for mellowing someone out.

Eyes, nose, and mouth.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #75)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:12 AM

96. Sigh

 

"You can't" is the reality and false hope does not change that.

Being aware of your surroundings and avoiding certain situations are much more important than the physical options you make light of.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to regjoe (Reply #71)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:06 PM

76. OMG... "Men are pigs." "You can't teach a rapist "don't rape,"

you get the majority of rapes, vast majority, are date rapes. guys, that do not think they are raping. just being, you know, pigs, cause our men and society say this is who they are after all. so really, they have no ownership over their behavior. and their goal is always, sex. nothing less. so whatever means. you know. booze. drugs. no means yes.

all the cutsey things we teach our boys so they can become well round .... pigs.

hey ALL.... i have two teenage boys and know 100% better. not to mention ALL the men in my life that are NOT pigs. total bullshit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #76)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:24 AM

97. "Men are pigs" is not a denial of ownership over their behavior.

 

Nor does it justify their behavior.

Men, even as teenage boys, know when they are doing wrong. They know it is wrong to feel up a girl who has passed out, and they know it is wrong to use force. Blaming society for their choices does nothing.

No matter how or how much you teach "don't rape," there will always be somebody who will rape. Just as there will always be somebody who will murder and here will always be somebody who is a pedo.
As long as those realities exist, it is our duty to teach everybody how to try and avoid them.

Rather than saying "...instead of don't rape," she should have said "...but not don't rape."

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to regjoe (Reply #97)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:13 AM

99. i do not agree that the majority of men are pigs. that is the argument. i have only men and boys

around me. i have spent a lifetime of having only boys and men around me. they are not pigs.

that is my point.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to regjoe (Reply #71)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:18 PM

77. "Men are pigs." Way to paint with a broad brush.

Way to insult 50% of the population. No the majority of men are not pigs. I'm sorry, but your statement was just a sexist as if I had said "women are sluts." Neither are true or acceptable statements.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to white_wolf (Reply #77)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:30 PM

80. i agree white wolf and thank you for speaking loud and clear. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #80)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:23 PM

87. +1

Men are human beings.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to white_wolf (Reply #77)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:01 AM

98. We are pigs

 

From early age, our thoughts center on satisfying our sexual urges. The majority of us may have control, but that does not mean we do not think constantly of satisfying those urges.

I am male and I know how we think. I do not agree with the word "slut." So I disagree with the comparison.

I do agree though, it is a broad brush I have used. Maybe it is because I am a husband or because I have a daughter, I don't know.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to regjoe (Reply #98)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:16 AM

100. then i guess you will have to just say, women are pigs. do you know, womens thoughts

center on sexual urges also. not that different from men.

women think about it like 12 times a day, men 17. women also think about food and sleep less than men. the only thing we can find as a difference is men might be a tad more self focused than women. just a tad.

so, if this is your definition of men being pigs. then i guess you will just have to start calling women pigs, also.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to regjoe (Reply #98)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 12:41 PM

104. No you know how you think not how I or other men I know think.

It is a very broad brush you've used.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to regjoe (Reply #71)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:43 PM

83. Come on. All men are not pigs.

That's a ridiculous comment.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to regjoe (Reply #71)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:12 PM

85. It's a minority of men who rape

I do think teaching college freshman what rape is would help, because I think a lot don't understand that all potential date rape scenarios are actually rape.

But even then, most men are fine. I'm married to one of the fine men. The vast majority of men I know I have a great deal of trust in.

Also, just teaching someone to avoid being raped really does teach people to question her rather than the rapist afterward. "Didn't you go to the seminar? You aren't supposed to do X." You get into blaming the victim. I think everyone should go to one seminar together, men and women, and they should all be taught definitions of rape, have a discussion of date rape and sexual coercion, and also all talk about safety tips, for rape and for robbery and other crimes that they could run into on campus, as they're away from their parents' homes for the first time.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to regjoe (Reply #71)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:11 PM

93. Well, it's a small sign

and there's only so much room for legible writing on it.

A sign that tried to say "...instead of "This college has a police force and the prosecutor on speed-dial. We take sexual assault VERY SERIOUSLY. If you try it you WILL be prosecuted, you WILL likely go to prison and you WILL NOT finish college. In case you really don't know what sexual assault is (seriously? you don't know?) here is an official to explain it to you. Consent- get it! We're not kidding!" just wouldn't scan as well nor be easily readable. This is a sound byte.

Since most rapes are by friends/acquaintances/people the victim knows or is close to, not strangers in dark alleys, there's no possible way of avoiding the situations completely. It's a discussion that needs to happen with both sexes, not just one.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:43 PM

82. I get told I am one any time I do something

that separates from a doormat.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:45 PM

89. No one ever told me that it was not ok to rape someone.

 

No one ever had to. It's pretty frigging obvious that if someone doesn't want you to touch them that you don't touch them. I've never had anyone that didn't want to do something sexual with me do it. I'm incapable of sexual performance without a willing partner. I literally can't rape someone. I'm just not wired that way.

The idea that you have to tell someone that it's wrong to rape is bizarre to me and yet there is an apparent need to do so. It's crazy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:18 AM

101. My nieces deserve a full life

They are unique human beings and deserve to live as fully as any other person. I choose to fight for the rights I've had and more for them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:31 AM

102. I'd go one step further than teaching "how to avoid getting raped".

I'd require at least one semester of self defense for women. I mean serious self defense.

My gym teacher in high school gave us a 45 minute talk about where and where to avoid walking, how to avoid attracting attention by what we wore, what to look for when walking alone, etc. Maybe 5 minutes devoted to scream/run away, scrotum-punching, etc. I felt it was useless (1975).

If women are to be empowered, it takes more than pepper spray in the purse. It's being ready to defend oneself, maim if necessary. Conceded there are situations one should be more attentive, but overall, women have the same rights to public spaces as men, without being molested and/or harmed.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #102)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:24 PM

106. I know you mean well...

... but no.

It's not that there's anything wrong with self-defense classes. I understand they've done a lot to build up the self-esteem and strength of many people, men and women alike. So I'm not against them.

I just don't like to see it packaged as the solution to rape, because it isn't. Because when his hands are at your throat and you can't breathe, and he's screaming "DON'T YOU EVER SAY NO TO ME" and all you can think about is what you need to do to survive the night, and will you ever see another sunrise, and what will your parents do - it all kind of flies out the window.

The kind of self-defense you're talking about wouldn't have helped me. I was with someone I trusted right up to that moment. And then there was no time to think of fighting back like an all-star. I did what I had to do to survive.

So, self-defense? Sure. But there's something I just hate about this idea that women should just take a self-defense class and that will stop rape. Because it doesn't always. And sometimes it's not even safe to try. And those who don't try, or who do but can't stop it, they shouldn't have the burden of failure placed on their head. And too often, that's where this kind of thinking leads.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FightForMichigan (Reply #106)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:57 PM

110. I'm sorry for your ordeal.

I had someone break into my locked bedroom who was a drunk guest of my housemates, sleeping over. He was naked and held a chicken carving knife. I screamed for help and nobody came. I wish I had known some self defense to end the situation sooner than it did. (I got him out by alternately talking to him and threatening to call the police. If I was going to die, I wanted him held in prison.)

One is never "prepared" to be raped.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #110)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 10:10 PM

111. Peace to us both

and all who survived, in which ever way they did.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:20 PM

107. my freshman yr in college over 20 yrs ago included the dont get raped talk

It was terrifying - I was 17 and away from home for the first time in my life.

All of the freshmen girls lived in a locked dorm the first year (affectionately called the Virgin Vault) once we moved on to sophomores and older we were "trusted" to live in unlocked dorms and/or co-ed dorms.


So sad

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:27 PM

108. Like telling your child "don't talk to strangers"

or "look both ways before crossing the street." It's not an implication that the child is at fault if they are abducted or hit by a car, it's just a common sense safety precaution.

The university is entirely correct in teaching students about behavior that could put them in a bad situation.

Why can't people just take a step back and use common sense for a moment? A "don't rape" class? Really? Do you think a sexual predator is going to think twice because he took a class? That's just naive.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LittleBlue (Reply #108)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 05:51 PM

109. There's nothing essentially wrong with that, except

... if you teach them 'don't talk to strangers' while neglecting to add 'and tell mommy and daddy if anyone ever harms you, even if that is an aunt, uncle, grandparent or teacher,' you're kind of missing the boat.

Similarly, there's nothing inherently wrong with saying 'be aware of your surroundings.' But most rapes come from people who are trusted.

And also, as the only way to truly stop rape is to not have any more attempted rapes, what is wrong with telling people "These are the laws, break them and you're in a world of hurt"? We do that with drunk driving, for example, don't we?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:00 AM

115. Recommended.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:30 AM

116. ... assumes all the rapists are students

Plus, some will skip freshman orientation to hit the frat pledge parties.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JustABozoOnThisBus (Reply #116)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:58 AM

117. Derp

On a campus, it's a pretty safe bet.

Your second comment makes no sense. Perhaps you were still a little dazzled by your derpy hairsplitting when you typed it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #117)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 11:51 AM

118. Maybe on an isolated or gated campus

but on an urban campus, it's not a safe bet.

The second comment was just snark. The thought is that students who are rapists will probably skip or mock any orientation class that suggests rape is bad. Such a student would probably have a long history of behavioral issues, including bullying, and would probably be somewhat sociopathic before becoming a college freshman.

I'm not sure what "derpy" means, but if it's related to "dumb", I plead guilty. I should have known better than to post in the middle of a DU thread-storm.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread