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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOccupy Wall St Says 'Rolling Jubilee' Raises Enough to Abolish $6 Million in Debt
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/11/16/1205991/occupy-wall-streets-rolling-jubilee-raises-enough-to-abolish-5-million-in-debthttp://rollingjubilee.org/
OCCUPY WALL STREET’S ‘ROLLING JUBILEE’ RAISES ENOUGH TO ABOLISH $5 MILLION IN DEBT | Members of Occupy Wall Street last week announced the formation of “Rolling Jubilee,” a fundraising campaign that would be used to purchase outstanding debt and then abolish it. And as of Friday, the campaign has already raised enough to eliminate more than $5.7 million in personal debt, according to its web site. The group’s plans are to buy outstanding debt from financial institutions for a small price, but instead of collecting on the debt, it will forgive it in order to relieve student loan, medical, and other forms of debt.
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xchrom
(108,903 posts)
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)graham4anything
(11,464 posts)sounds like a nice college project, but how actually would this work, so people could see it on paper?(the tech stuff).
Will there be a paper trail, to show how A goes to pay off B which lowers C (debt) and is then used to D (relieve student loans, medical, etc.)
because if there isn't some official proof, this is just a nice college project, how is the money getting into the US Treasury to cut the debt?
And can I just ask a question here-why don't we just raise taxes to get the US Treasury more money?
Being that if Joe Citizen gives $1000.00 directly to this noble cause, it is $1000.00 out of his pocket. Why not just increase taxes to make that same $1000.00
btw, what are the administrative expenses, costs?and what direct percentage is given?
(from above it sounds like 100%, but is that realistic??? People working round the clock for free?
(a question I ask when a charity asks for money call me a cynic, but ...
eShirl
(18,494 posts)It's not.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Because if one says $1000 is going to cut the debt, so that $1000 more will be available for education, but is actually not true, that cannot be legal.
In fact, I think that would be considered fraud, would it not?
And then later on timewise, thousands of people would be demanding their money back.
One cannot advertise otherwise.
Sounds like a scheme a Bernie Madoff would have hatched.
(If proof is given by another poster that said money will have a paper trail to show what they are advertising, I would be 100% happy to delete this post).
sense
(1,219 posts)before posting. Your questions prove that you haven't even bothered to read a thing about this.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)because the average reader, whom I am asking for, does not click on links, they like it presented to them
(otherwise, what you are saying is read the small print
which in other words is where A does not equate to B in most forms.
This sounds very odd to me.
(and yes, I admit I am not enamoured by the group that blocked traffic in NYC making it hard for Joe Average to commute home.
And also stereotyped all those that work on Wall Street, even though 99% of those workers work 9 to 5 and just get an average NYC salary to feed their family of 4.)
This is 2012 not the romantic 1960s.
eShirl
(18,494 posts)"The group’s plans are to buy outstanding debt from financial institutions for a small price, but instead of collecting on the debt, it will forgive it in order to relieve student loan, medical, and other forms of debt."
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Why not just hand Sally Student the money to pay off the student loan
Otherwise why should Henry Student have to pay his, if Sally Student doesn't have to pay hers?
If one takes out a student loan, one should repay it. Nobody helped me pay mine off.
I worked after school finished and paid it off painstakingly.
Same with my mortgage.
That is how America works.
We need more taxes, not schemes to get out of paying by private hands.
That again, is the Mitt Romney way and not the average American way.
(ie=Mitt's kids can afford to pay without loans, but the average minority student can not, so they get loans, and I don't see anyone paying theirs off.)
There has to be a direct line showing how this helps, not a noble scheme.
eShirl
(18,494 posts)"Why not just hand Sally Student the money to pay off the student loan"
Are you similarly mystified as to how collection agencies are able to make a profit?
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)why not spell it out in precise steps starting with A and going to Z
because no, it is not very clear at all.
sense
(1,219 posts)It's all been spelled out, but you will have to read......
eShirl
(18,494 posts)Here, I looked up their contact information from their website for you.
[email protected]
You're welcome.
Riley18
(1,127 posts)They cannot identify a specific person's debt, but purchase "blocks" of debt for pennies on the dollar. Apparently, this is a standard practice for making money. Purchase "bad debt" for a small sum such as $500 for several thousand dollars of debt, and then go after the debtors to see how much you can "earn" on your investment. The huge difference is that Rolling Jubilee is forgiving the debt and not going after it.
It is a very good idea for the people, but I think it may also help to bring the dialog over to the questions as to why we are saddled with such debts in the first place. Why do venture capitalists get such wonderful breaks on taxes for the capital gains, and American students get very little tax incentives for incurring student loan debt. The people in charge say crap like "capital gains help America" or something to that effect, but American students becoming better educated certainly helps more. It is all up to who has the most money because they are able to turn a positive into a negative.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)and cynical as you are.
Yep, a Gun Control & RKBA regular. Sorry Romney lost. 
eomer
(3,845 posts)Rolling Jubilee (RJ) will buy a block of debt from a creditor. So for example they buy a block from Wells Fargo that happens to include a student loan taken out by Sally Student. Now Sally owes RJ instead of Wells Fargo. RJ has the legal right to try to collect from Sally but instead they execute legal documents to cancel that loan and they provide Sally with a copy of the legal document that grants her that relief.
A key aspect required to make this work is that Wells Fargo will sell a block of debt for some small fraction of the outstanding balance they are formally owed.
And, as should be clear from what I wrote, this has nothing to do with debt owed by our government, it is about debt owed by individuals.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Here is a noble cause for OWS-
Can they finance those immigrants that are here that President Obama is going to grant amnesty for if they are students? Wouldn't it be something if OWS can lead to 100% of all immigrants getting citizenship because of their efforts.
THAT I WOULD APPLAUD!!!
and the same for Blacks who need funds to get a great education.
eomer
(3,845 posts)There are a great many people who need help these days; I applaud helping each individual who needs it. I imagine some of the people who would be helped by OWS Rolling Jubilee would be immigrants, some of them wouldn't, some would be black, some wouldn't. Why did that seem all of a sudden the relevant point to you?
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Don't you see my point?
It's like a lottery. Meaning one in a million will get. the others won't.
Why won't the others?
It's like a new experimental drug, that has a study group. 1/2 get the real meds, 1/2 got placebos.
1/2 died. The other 1/2 lived.
It's playing God
eomer
(3,845 posts)They absolutely understand they can help only a fraction. They see this program as a way to raise awareness and promote the idea of jubilee - that debt can and should be forgiven in some circumstances and that these are the very circumstances that warrant a universal jubilee.
Below is the website for Rolling Jubilee, check it and you'll see that they make that point:
http://rollingjubilee.org/
AlexSatan
(535 posts)Occupy. Because they are buying the debt.
If you want to decide, buy some debt and forgive it.
Just because they can't forgive all debt doesn't mean what they are doing is not a great thing.
I've been a huge skeptic of Occupy but they deserve top kudos for this.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)Ever have a bill you did not pay? sent to a bill collector right? Bill collector tries and tries to collect. No luck. He bundles hundreds perhaps thousands of similar noncollectable bills that he has been unsuccessful in collecting. He sells these, I think to the highest bidder.
Whoever that bidder is has the right to do whatever they want with the debt. Collect it, sell it off again, or as Occupy is doing, forgive it.
They spent like 500 bucks and bought 14 thous$ of strangers debts. Then they forgive it. Then they tell the person the debt is gone. Hopefully the person is gracious and will donate for the next buy.
Next they paid like 5 grand and bought (I forget the amount but a large amount of debt) This they will do the same with. Release it.
This clears personal debt. They do not have the ability to pick and choose whose debt they are buying. It's all lumped together.
make sense?
Yeah, I know besides feeding the hungry people that fema is missing and feeding fema themselves, those rotten occupiers are now helping people rid themselves of debt. What bastards ah? 
Matariki
(18,775 posts)If so, I'd be happy to try and explain it to you. Or if you haven't read the article completely I'd suggest reading it before posting.
You clearly aren't understanding what they are doing, either because you misread the article or didn't read it at all.
ON EDIT: nevermind. 2pooped2pop explained better than I could. That's your answer. Hope you grok it now.
sense
(1,219 posts)has read about their subject, and yes, horrors, even clicked on the provided links to educate themselves further. That is what the links are for. You must be used to other types of sites, which the remainder of your post suggests.
If you knew anything about the occupy movement, except what you've heard and read on the stations and sites you normally frequent, you would not have been so suspicious of their motives that you jumped to the conclusions that there was something nefarious about what they were doing.
Yours posts contain the only snark. I made no comment whatsoever about there being stupid questions.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)to Obama voters for the most part, at least the first year worth
Their goals were interesting to 3rd party people like Ron (the fraud) Paul and anti-semetic blame the bankers(Jews) for the world problems.
I don't stereotype the rich bankers as all the same. Some are good. Some are bad.
Just like baseball players. Not all take steroids and hit homeruns. Some pitch.
and as past efforts by groups have been noble, there were very few Harry Chapin's out there who devoted their entire life to the cause and see to it that food actually got to those hungry, not just their charities bank accounts.
Those that walk the walk for life, instead of talk the talk.
btw-do you realize that every post here is googled and that people read here, or it is picked up who have no no idea what OWS is. (surprise that 90% of America never heard of them).
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)'good' or 'bad' an individual banker is?
This is about systemic economic injustice, it isn't about personalities or stereotypes of the character of bankers.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)every Occupier I know personally is an Obama voter. It is odd that you would not know that frankly since if they are anything, Occupiers are completely opposed to Right Wing policies and generally support FDR programs, which Ron Paul does not.
I think you are getting your info from some very bad sources, or you are attempting to use something here on DU you assume would turn people off the movement. That would only work if DUers were ignorant of the facts.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)As usual.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)very kind, and who do good things for people in need out of the kindness of their hearts.
And they would adamantly refuse taking MONEY or other compensation for their altruism.
Yes, as hard as this may be for you to believe, there really are some people like this in the world.
?~~~~~~~~~~
defacto7
(13,485 posts)and there are some people who see others getting something they don't have or didn't get and are jealous it didn't happen to them, instead of being happy for those who were freed for at least a moment from the burden of fake money.
The debt is not real anyway. It's only numbers multiplied by layer after layer of banks and financiers. Forgiving it is a way to cancel out the fake debt that is almost exclusively laid at the feet of those least able to pay. They end up paying with real worth, their own sweat, to pay off nonexistent debt represented by fake money.
My greatest admiration to the people who thought up this humanity elevating idea. Hurray for the team OWS! It's humanity at it's best.
Tigress DEM
(7,887 posts)It's like going out and buying someone's "micro loan" and then writing off the debt instead of pursuing it.
It's not a business enterprise, it's a non-profit activity for the purpose of helping reduce individual debt that keeps getting batted around in the system.
UCmeNdc
(9,600 posts)graham4anything
(11,464 posts)And where is the promised education add-on?
Why not directly take the money to a school (say in a minority neighborhood) and pay the school to hire another teacher? (say in Philadelphia public school?)
If one is promised something for their money, both ends need to be met, to be considered legit.
Otherwise, the debt is not going down, and money is not getting to more education.
That is the conundrum, isn't it?
It is like donating to cure cancer.
If 50% of the money is paid for administrative costs, and in the end, not directly to the person who will cure cancer, it is not making a difference.
(This is something the USA for Africa team found out, or Sir Bob Geldof.
Just having money doesn't necessarily alleviate the problem.
and the disillusionment at the other end led to fatigue in charity donations.
Plus charity is NOT the answer for running a government, that was Mitt Romney's solution.
So how is this money directly leading to better eduction of minority students as promised?
eShirl
(18,494 posts)graham4anything
(11,464 posts)I can picture Bernie Madoff saying he had a noble idea too
and it was, til the accounting came in
This does not sound like even a little "trickle down" is forthcoming.
eShirl
(18,494 posts)graham4anything
(11,464 posts)the US no longer owes China any money?
sense
(1,219 posts)you're just stirring.
eShirl
(18,494 posts)Marmitist
(64 posts)
Because it's one or the other, possibly both...
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)there has to be an accounting.
Now if they finance all those immigrants here that will be granted amnesty/citizenship if they have or will be having a fine education, that I would happily back.
But most people in America don't know OWS, and alot that do do not have a great opinion of them, being that for one year they had zero goals, and no leaders, therefore their wants
are unknown.
And they lump together all those who work on Wall Street, when 99% of Wall street is 9 to 5 workers who get a normal NYC salary, with a Christmas bonus figured into their regular earnings.
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)and demonizing all those who worked on wall street, when 99.9% are just regular average citizens/workers
and oh my gosh, even some CEO's are good people.
This lumping together was just divisive and stereotyping.
eomer
(3,845 posts)I'm not going to respond to that part other than to say you are beyond the pale, wow.
Regarding lumping in average workers, I've spent a good bit of time with Occupy (have considered myself one of them) and I never heard or read anything from Occupy remotely like that. This is one huge straw man. Please provide a link to something in which Occupy clearly lumped in ordinary workers in their criticism of wall street fat cats. (You won't be able to do this because they obviously do not hold any such views.)
Viva_La_Revolution
(28,791 posts)Otherwise why do you keep bringing up immigrants? and the National debt? neither has anything to do with Rolling Jubilee.
just the fact that you keep saying "nobody knows about OWS. they have no plan, they must be doing something BAD" shows your bias.
ya got a little poo on your stick...
ohheckyeah
(9,314 posts)"most people in America" think of OWS? There doing something productive to help people. And since when do you speak for most people and the regular reader?
I doubt anybody cares if you back this initiative or not.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts) 
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)Mission was accomplished, the thread devolved into answering deliberate non-sensical questions instead of dicussing the cool idea that OWS has come up with.
summerschild
(725 posts)graham4anything
(11,464 posts)the questions are not non-sensical.
they are trying to figure out just how logistically this is anything more than two tokes over the line dreaming but ultimately nothing accomplished except for possible good press(which I suspect is why this is being done).
You need a money trail, and you need to know who/what/why gets a handout.
(and then what do you do with the people who already paid, seems unfair they did not get a handout when just because one is honest, it is held against them.)
BTW-in New Jersey there is a big backlash against Sandy charity, in that people from poorer areas see these rich upper middle class kids waltz in and assume they are needy cases just
because they lost their home.
Most people in NJ who lost their homes on the shore have a #1 home elsewhere.
These homes were just summer homes.
And how many poor people do you know with two homes.
(why people want to press with the travel each weekend to get to the shore is beyond me, but there are 100s of thousands it appears.)
But poor they are not. And they don't wish to be treated as such. It's degrading.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)But I will tell you this:
DU has thoughtfully provided tools against annoying posts.
Nuff said.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)to me the banking thingy dingy is unimportant, Ron Paul bullcrap.
Grant me the serenity to change that I can
to accept I cannot change the things I can't
and to know the difference
one day at a time, 10% better than 100% of nothing
btw- who is the OWS leader? Reminds me of those with masks. I am not a fan of anonymous
and V was just an action movie, not based in reality in 2012.
(though as always Hugo Weaving is something else, see Cloud Atlas( shout out to Lana!)
tama
(9,137 posts)Occupy has access to it's trail and sends the individuals info that his/her debt has been forgiven. With information package wrapped in cute gift paper. The Jubilee is rolling meaning that there is wish that many of those who have their debts forgiven donate money for buying and forgiving more debt. It's a rolling "random acts of kindness" act.
sense
(1,219 posts)People have tried to point you in the right direction and you ignore them and go on with your ranting as if what they are doing had anything to do with the national debt. Private debt. They are purchasing and forgiving private debt. It's a good thing.
READ.
tsuki
(11,994 posts)graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Is Ed McMahon going to come to your door with balloons and say you are a big winner?
It seems 99% of those who owe will not be involved and this is a gigantic image rehab being done, much like Walmart is attempting to rehab their image after the storm.
NO we don't want Walmart in NYC same as we don't want people blocking cars from the tunnels over some stereotyped protest. 9 to 5 workers need to get home and sleep to wake up and work 9 to 5 the next morning.
It seems like this needs proper accounting, and who pays for the hours of paper work?
Has anyone even thought about practicalities in all this?
That is why most charities are not what they seem-it does NOT trickle down to all the people that need it.
just maybe 1% of the people. Why are those people so lucky?
Sounds like the Titanic to me, with only so many lifevests and all.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)I think you should drop out of this thread.
You're only here to stir shit.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)and when charitable ideas end up bad, it hurts all charity.
Which is why there are strict rules, not spur of the moment or anarchiac ones.
Look at Lance Fraud Armstrong. He whines, but the kids, the kids.
If he cared shit about his kids, he wouldn't have done what he did which made him feel legit when he wasn't (same thing a few years back with Don Imus)
real charity like the ones Harry Chapin did when he was alive, took a lifetime committment and planning.
this is just symbolism and doesn't really do anything permanent (like Obama's health care plan in 2009 did and will be bettered, so that in the end maybe we can be like the French and have zero bills at time of need.)
I haven't seen but two realistic replies out of 60, just alot of dreams, which is great, but more is needed
As Mark Rudd said, (on his website) the ways of the 1960s doesn't necessarily work today.
It's like Walmart trying to hone in on NYC again by saying they helped during Sandy.
Thanks, but no thanks.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)but what they're doing isn't charity. In fact, what Occupy is doing is capitalism. By definition.
Stop trying to snow us with conservative framing. We're way smarter than that.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)victims of Sandy. As the media even has reported, OWS has mobilized thousands of volunteers to go into the most neglected areas to help those victims, minus the big exec salaries and red tape.
They have been amazing. They also have helped keep people in their homes, stopping illegal foreclosures and forcing banks to work out, as they are supposed to do, mortgage adjustments under the President's program rather than throw people out in the street. It's hard to calculate how many people OWS has helped over the past year, to stay in their homes, to provide shelter and services for the homeless, now to forgive debt showing the way all the time to how this country could be a better country for its people.
How many Americans have you helped btw during that period of time? How many has Congress kept in their homes? What have they done to even make a dent in the obscene debt students have been forced to carry IF they want an education?
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)As we said to Mitt Romney during the election, we are not freeloaders.
Now, if we were a true socialist system(something NEVER tried before) then talk to me about it.
One for all and all for one.
It's not the middle class, its the lower class that needs more.
The lower class needs to be the middle class. The upper class needs to be the middle class.
One world
one nation
one people
one
Imagine as John Lennon sang, no religion, no possessions, just peace on earth good will toward men(women)
school and health care should be free
and get rid of charter schools, private schools and rotate teachers good or bad in all districts in each city/state to equal things out.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)a requirement to be a Democrat/Liberal/Progressive.
Lucky you. There was a time before Wall Street's influence on Student Loans when most people could afford to pay them off.
Higher Education during your time was possible for all Americans without indebting them well into their sixties or seventies. But that is not the case today, so be thankful you are not one of today's students who have the choice not to go to college at all, which many have sadly been forced to do, or to take out those predatory loans and hope they can get a job in order to pay them back, which so many have not since Corrupt Wall Street Bankers destroyed the Global Economy.
I know, 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps etc etc, that old 'conservative' admonition, 'your grandfather did it' etc etc.
Well, we live in a world today where Predatory Capitalists stole so much of the wealth of this country, with their 'privatization' schemes and gambling in the Big Wall STreet Casino with OUR money, which has made things a lot different than they were during those days when education was within reach for all Americans.
We will have to be very creative in order to help those people along who have been cheated out of their futures. And thankfully, we have brilliant strategists like OWS to step into the void and to force these issues into the public dialogue finally.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)I would like education to be free for all.
(something never tried would be NON-military national service (in your own city/state) with free education as a reward.
High learning institutions to me are worse than the banks/Wall street.
(Penn state for instance.)
And the world is shrinking. The world needs to be considered as we are just part of that.
The thing with OWS that would be great if it was a national community organization with major long range goals, but to do that, they do need a workable system and they really need (horrors) professional spokespeople (I know a dirty word). But it does wonders to penetrate into middle America.
again,building from the inside, working with instead of against or outside, does work better.
Today's OWS people should not be anonymous. Because those are the future local, state and national leaders/speakers/politicians.
Can one imagine the Civil rights era working if say Dr. King was just an anonymous face in the parade?
And real power comes with becoming leaders politically.
(I am fully convinced that Harry Chapin would now be at least a Rep. if not a Senator or some cabinet position had he lived.)(He certainly was in DC and speaking to congress often enough.)
Again, working within the system.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)not to provide targets who can be removed, leaving a movment without a leader. It has a long historical precedent and is an excellent strategy, very disturbing to those who fear Social Justice Movements, which could be seen by the Corporate Media's constant calls for a 'leader'.
OWS members are not anonymous, they simply will not give in to the demands to provide targets to be removed, smeared, destroyed. It is a brilliant strategy totally frustrating to the entities who are only familiar with their corrupt methods of destroying such movements.
I think you need to learn more about what has happened to education in this country. This is not ten or twenty years ago. Education should be available to anyone who wants it, it used to be, it is not anymore.
OWS did not intend to exist beyond two weeks or in more than one city. They have far exceeded their initial goals due to the fact that there was a need for such a movement. As they grow, not just here but Globally, they will evolve. But for a movement that is so young they have had enormous success and have done more for actual people than any of our elected officials to try to fix the enormous problems created by the Corruption on Wall Street.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)I am not going to comment on your MLK analogy as I think that is totally the opposite of what needs to be done.
And both Lincoln and Johnson needed votes from the other side to pass the historic bills.
And the civil rights marches worked because blacks and Jews marched in unison and in the Vietnam days, business owners shut their business, or allowed their workers a day off to protest.
Longterm being underground (or) anonymous is like Abbie Hoffman, who came back and found he was irrelevant, intead of sticking around and working within (like say Tom Hayden and others).
It will come back to haunt the people if they cannot later provide proof of employment in the OWS on their resume.
Education should be free. period. It should not be a rich person's sport. Which is why there should be no private education, just public for all.
To be honest, being anonymous is like a terror organization wearing a mask.
V was a great movie, but the mask just hides the person.
Masks scare me. The KKK wore masks.
If they are so noble, then they should be proud of their name and face.
(Do you think Karl Rove cultivates anonymous people nationwide to run for every single office you can think of?
If the best young minds are anonymous, we lose out on them being those candidates to run against the Bush/Rove ones.
That is the shame of it all.
OWS should be like a union. Power for the people so to say.
But working with the party that offers more than the other party.(Which is also if you go to his website what Mark Rudd said in 2008 when supporting Obama.)
and realistic expectations.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Is Tom Morello anonymous? Is Jesse LaGreca anonymous?
Don't worry about OWS, they are in their infancy. The Civil Rights Movement took years to develop. You seem to be living in a fantasy world where all the ills that are addressed by Social Justice Movements were addressed overnight.
That is not realistic. OWS are realists. They understand it will take years to undo the Economic Injustices that it took decades to put in place. The Global Economic Terrorists have destroyed the economies of the world, not just the US. Which is why this is a Global Movement. OWS was late to the movement but now they are a big part of it.
I don't think you understand what is going on frankly. Injustice of any kind cannot be ended in two weeks. The Economic Terrorists that destroyed Third World Countries will not give up without a fight. No one expected them to.
This will most likely take years, maybe even decades. But for a long time they had free reign, there was no significant opposition to them. Third world activists were brutally pushed back. NOW there is, in the form of the Global OWS Movement and they are not going away anytime soon. Because the results of the Global Economic Terror is only now manifesting itself in the First World and now there is finally a unified, Global resistance to it, and that resistance is being joined by countries in the Third World who had no real voice until now.
There is no comparison between Abbie Hoffman and OWS. He is a perfect example of what you advocate, someone who put himself out there and as a result became an easy target. A 'leader'. He was successfully marginalized, something they cannot do to OWS.
You should read up on the history behind the strategy of 'Leaderless' NOT 'Anonymous' movements. You seem to be confusing the two.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)So can one like OWS2 not much having agreed with the tactics of OWS1?
(so maybe a new name for OWS2 would get rid of the negative connotations of OWS1
(In the same way Cindy Sheehan did a wonderful job up to the start of Katrina, and it was quite admirable.
However, the respect for her diminished greatly once Bush left Crawford for the west coast in the days after Katrina, and even furthered devalued the time after it.
So I can back OWS and their accomplishments now, forgetting about how they overstayed and overplayed the OWS Wall Street.
So they are a work in progress, can we agree on that?
You have convinced me this indeed is admirable, and they have learned and grown.
Now, let me ask you something-
I have not liked the treatment of Mike Bloomberg here. And the hatred and stereotyping of him.
Being that there are 4 different Bloomberg's-
the man himself-who has and will keep giving his money (that he earned fairly and squarely, with the help of many others) all away before he dies. (He is giving billions away to those causes, and the needy and as charity).
the mayor of NYC-which has as all positions have, needs that have to be looked at in context with the job, the law, and the powers given to the position in, and also, what is not able to be done in the context of the job
the company he runs (the news organization that is extremly far to the left of Murdoch's News Group i.e. Fox News)
and his new Super Pac for the issues he himself wants to see accomplished
Now, if you asked me, what Bloomberg has done in 2 of the four is quite the same wavelength so to say OWS is. (Though at this point Bloomberg has given many times the amount that OWS has raised.)
So why the hatred for him?
He is after all on the same side of the issues of OWS2.
One thing that has to be taken into account with regard to OWS1 is that he (and me) are NYC (though he is a Boston raised liberal democrat, now in NYC).
And those in NYC have different needs than say those who own/run Wall Street companies
You do realize how 9-11 happened in NYC?
And you do realize how many billions and billions of dollars were lost after 9-11, in NYC and the global financial markets don't you?
And that after 9-11, you just cannnot do things that were done pre-9-11.
Cops are different (and the mayor only in name runs the NYPD, everyone knows they are more powerful than the mayor and run themselves from time started).
And that NYC in the 1990s and pre-9-11 vastly improved on the late 1970s/1980s NYC, with regard to income, with regard to crime, with regard to image.
And that 9-11 took alot of that away.
So you have the Bloomberg, who was elected after the failed power grab by Rudy Giuliani,who anyone and their mother would have to admit was 100 times worse on his best day, than Bloomberg on his worst day, needing to govern in a post 2001 world/city.
And you do realize that Bloomberg is along with Al Gore, probably the #1 Green candidate ever.
(Wanting to make Times Square into a concrete beach and remove cars/trucks from polluting the air and atmosphere.
Wanting to better Americans diet (another area derided, but people seem to be missing the big picture.
Wanting to help those that cannot afford healthcare by changing the message from post-problems to wellness (the point of the 48ounce soda ban), one that is working
Wanting to rid as should be, cigarettes from the equation
And, much to my happiness, now wanting to be the Equalizer against the NRA super pac, by having an even bigger funded pac of his own.
Seems admirable to me and the majority of New York City'ers who support Barack Obama, though of course because of politics, not everyone can publicly admit it.
the election in 2004 and his treatment supposedly of OWS1 were necessitated by other factors that any mayor in these times would have done. As Mayor he was acting under the law, and was more than generous with OWS1 than most others would have been.
(I suspect Rudy would have on day one removed them.)
The OWS1 people should have on their own retreated much earlier to plan for the future.
By the time of the problems(which for the most part were not major problems anyhow),they had used up the vast majority of their good will capital and were a nuisance and no longer accomplishing.
The stereotyping of Wall Street as a whole, something NYC itself needs to survive as they count on that money from those workers/companies for their own way to pay the bills needed that cities need- after all, Wall Street pays rent and taxes.
That is how government is funded and works.
After 9-11, with billions lost for a good decade, wanting to punish 100s of thousands because of 10 CEO's who may or may not be good people, when the same 9 to 5 people were the actual ones who died at the WTC
(Canter-Fitzgerald was housed in the WTC, major Wall Street group and lost more people in the WTC than any other company thanks to the faulty directions given from the Fire Department that morning).
I don't think for one second that anyone in OWS1 remembered that the 9 to 5 workers, the 99% of Wall Street were just regular average Joes and Josephines, getting a normal NYC salary to pay their bills in the 2nd most expensive area to live in the nation.
And probably a great number of those inconvienced were akin to being the parents of the youngsters protesting (the rebels without a cause as most of them, honestly, did not know what it was they were protesting. A % knew, but a great % also were just there from the soundbytes.)
So it turns me off when I see Mike Bloomberg being called the same ugly things that the NRA folks on the gun thread call him, when in fact, Mike and OWS2 are working for the same goals.
Even if they don't see it.
Much like the Civil Rights protesters were Blacks and Jews marching together, strategizing together, not working apart, which made the movement even that much broader.
(Same like Dr. King and LBJ working together.)
SO I can admire OWS2 even if I was not a fan of OWS1.
Bloomberg the person, and his new super pac, are doing (in major $$$ amounts) what Abbie Hoffman and others have done.
You might not agree on all his issues, but you have to admit he is making headway too.
And as climate change makes NYC the new Florida for bad storms, there will be more and more destruction and devastation.
And btw, I am a strong union person, and you have to remember that the Mayor of NYC has their own issues with unions that a personal person would not have. There are rules, and there is only a limited amount of funds available.
(Much of which is provided by the tax money from those "Wall street" firms/workers that are so hated.
It all works hand in hand.
But I give OWS2 credit.
I just hope minorities are getting their fair share from this. Being that their education funding is worse than any other group in NYC (and the nation).
I wonder, if you or anyone in OWS had a billion dollars, would you give away every single last penny before you die?(like Mike Bloomberg is doing, and a select few other mega rich people?
Not all of them should be lumped together as bad people. Money is not evil, unless the causes with the money used are bad.
It's like seeing a needy person in the Bowery asking for money. I would rather give a sealed package of food to that person. and/or if I had the funds, find out the cause behind the person being on the street, and attempt to find a solution for them and their families, be it homelessness, be it alchohol, drugs, etc.
Again, as Bob Geldof found out, two big events did not solve anything, and in fact, led to major charity fatigue for a few years after, thereby making matters worse, not better.
as this post took me more than 65 minutes to compose, and is stream of conscious style topic wise, feel free to pick just parts of it to respond to if you care to respond at all.
I think I will post this on the gun thread topics too as the vast majority of this is similiar to as I am anti-gun to their pro-gun(much like Bloomberg is anti-gun and hated by the NRA gun folks, as the NRA pays millions to have professional publicists posting short concise retorts to anyone who disagrees with them, something I don't have the luxury of having (a press agent that is).
Are you OWS fans so sure you want to be so similar in your absolutes to the NRA groupies/disciples? It would seem the two are polar worlds apart. One from the left, one from the right, with nothing in between.
(If I had to guess, I would suggest most NRA fans outside of NYC think like Hank Williams Jr. negatively sings about NYC,(in his deriding but great song "A country boy can survive" and would eagerly love to bring their guns into NYC and rid the city of any/all protesters,along with any and all minorities including the one Mike Bloomberg himself is that stereotyping people lump him and the bankers as.)
AlexSatan
(535 posts)And if someone had offered to pay off some of your debt with private money would you have said "no thanks unless you can pay off everyone's debt"
That's fine. Someone else would actually appreciate it.
LeftofObama
(4,243 posts)Let's use medical debt...
You owe the doctor/hospital $14,000.
You work at a minimum wage job, or make such a small amount that you can't afford to make any payments on the medical debt you owe.
The doctor/hospital, after x number of months realizes they aren't going to get any money from you so they report you to a credit bureau and realizes your debt as noncollectable.
Your credit is now damaged and the hospital sells the debt to a private collection agency for pennies on the dollar. Normally $500 for $14000 worth of debt.
The doctor/hospital takes the $500 and writes off $13,500 as noncollectable.
The collection agency now owns the debt.
The collection agency harasses you, hounds you, garnishes your wages, and in many cases drives you into bankruptcy because you now owe them $14000 + interest that you can't pay. They can do anything they want with the debt and they will do ANYTHING they can, sometimes even illegal things, to get you to pay.
Enter Rolling Jubilee.
Rolling Jubilee goes to the doctor/hospital and says, "You were going to sell that $14,000 debt to Acme Collection Agency for $500 so why not sell it to us?"
The doctor/hospital doesn't care who they sell it to as long as they get some money and they are able to write off the rest.
Rolling Jubilee buys the $14000 worth of debt for $500.
Rolling Jubilee now owns the debt and they can do anything they want with it. If they were bad asses they could use the same techniques the collection agency uses to try to collect.
Rolling Jubilee takes all of the paperwork they just bought regarding your debt and runs it through a paper shredder.
You never hear from anyone again regarding the debt you owe the doctor/hospital except for the mark it has left on your credit report.
The end.
I hope this helps and if I'm wrong I'm sure another DUer will be along to correct me.
djean111
(14,255 posts)Hate to mention the government in the same post, as that seems to confuse someone, but considering that the government "donated' our tax money to bail out the banks who were holding bad mortgages - and the banks and/or collection agencies are still collecting on the mortgages or repossessing homes - this is more than brilliantly fair.
The bank or hospital has already written off the noncollectable loan as a tax credit or something.
The only people who should even consider whining are collection agencies, and I have no pity for them. They collect money but produce no goods or services, and ruin people's lives. If banks and corporations can be bailed out, why not the people whose backs they make a profit off of.
No ponzi scheme. Nothing to do with the government. Read the info on the site - it is very simple and clear.
By the way, it is always good to click on links provided or use that Google thingy to do more research on any subject, and sometimes subjects are presented or snipped to support a particular point of view. This isn't Faux "news". Don't mean that in a snippy way, but I notice that a lot of wingnuts just believe anything that dribbles out of Limbaugh or Beck or Faux.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)graham4anything
(11,464 posts)but who decides which person hit the jackpot?
and how many friends of OWS got theirs taken care of
It reminds me of Mickey Mantle. He got a liver. someone else didn't.
Seemed not fair
seems that is what will happen here.
Systematic Chaos
(8,601 posts)You just get a big manila envelope or a pdf file in your e-mail or something with a list of names, account balances and contact info.
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...among banks. Bad debts -- debts that have become too risky or are in arrears -- are bundled and sold for pennies on the dollar, usually to collection agencies who then try and collect on the debt. They will always try and collect the whole debt, but will often deal it down, as long as they get more than what they paid for it.
Enter OWS. They, instead of a collection agency, buy a debt bundle. Now they are the ones who need to be paid in order to release the debt. But instead of insisting on payment, they forgive the debt, so it is now off the books.
This has nothing to do with national debt. It is forgiveness of private debt for struggling individuals.
BlueToTheBone
(3,747 posts)In order to make it work, the Rolling Jubilee acts as a "debt collector", buys the outstanding debt and then releases the personal debtor of the debt. It is legal and it looks like it might work. The debtee gets their settled amount and the debtor gets a release from the RJ. I had a friend who was a medical debt collector. She bought the debt and then tried to get the debtor to pay her. She actually went out of business because she couldn't get the debts paid.
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)Their main focus appears to be on medical debt...
Don't know how a debt collecting agency works? For every $1.00 donated to Rolling Jubilee they are able to buy and retire $20.00 of debt from a collection agency...(this is an average as older debt is even cheaper). Debt collectors buy the debt from a hospital for maybe 50 cents on the dollar...(I think it's actually less than that) If they can't collect it, they will sell it to another debt agency for less than they paid for it. This will cycle through until it's down to literally a few cent on the dollar. What makes the business model so profitable is that most Americans will try to pay off their debt and even when a debt agency offers you a reduced payoff, it is higher than what they paid for the debt to begin with...
Those who have had their debts paid will receive a certified letter letting them know they have been relieved of that debt. It's a great idea.
aquart
(69,014 posts)Which is shocking.
Volaris
(10,272 posts)Is there a way to make this like an "official" unofficial charity around here, or are there rules against that sort of thing? Like, can we have a fundrasier? I would donate to that on behalf of ALL of us here at Democratic Underground.
MrSlayer
(22,143 posts)And I only have a relatively small amount of debt to forgive.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)an opportunity to get help with that debt?
If they want to participate in this program, and the more who do the more debt relief there will be, they are now free to do so. That IS worth cheering for.
BlueToTheBone
(3,747 posts)be bought in the next "tranche"
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)leaderless, nothing-but-a-fad OWS? That one? Yes, I remember all the naysayers on this board. Where ARE they now?
Seriously, this movement is just amazing.
On edit: I just read upthread. Apparently one did show up but I imagine there are ulterior motives here. This one's managed over 1,000 posts but I've seen better.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)Another RKBA troll.
marmar
(77,081 posts)nt
malaise
(269,054 posts)on GEM$NBComcast.
a kennedy
(29,673 posts)This is just A W E S O M E 
To add the article http://www.marketplace.org/topics/economy/occupy-wall-st/occupy-debt
ananda
(28,866 posts)That felt good!
liberal N proud
(60,336 posts)
myrna minx
(22,772 posts) 
Robb
(39,665 posts)If you're buying the right to collect a debt for, whatever, five cents on the dollar, that implies it's not as likely to be collected as, say, a debt that costs fifty cents.
It's a devalued commodity, precisely because the bank (or whoever) selling it knows it's not likely to see that money again, for whatever reason -- we all assume it's because the person is destitute, but there are lots of other possible reasons. The debtor could be dead or otherwise missing; changed jobs, changed contact information, changed their name, left the country. The debtor could be a person (or frankly a company) embroiled in a drawn-out lawsuit, with other senior lienholders way ahead in the line to get paid.
The underlying assumption with this notion, which is admirable, is that someone downstream is automatically better off because this debt is "off the market." But the only thing we know for sure is that the bank gets its five cents.
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)Still, I would bet a high percentage of the debt being bought is that of living (not dead) people (not a company).
I mean, intuitively I'd think businesses borrow more than individual people do -- and default at a similar or even higher rate.
bluedigger
(17,086 posts)For many of the very reasons you gave.
Robb
(39,665 posts)The more I read the less likely it seems this will actually "work."
However as a symbolic move to raise awareness, it's brilliant.
WolverineDG
(22,298 posts)to wipe out my student loan debt.
upi402
(16,854 posts)And...
" As far as a movement goes, it beats drum circles."
http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/11/16/occupy-wall-street-rolling-jubilee/
From a Fortune writer, this is an endorsement.
Anne VanderMey must have some student loans! Puts a new writer in a tough spot, I suppose.
Kick & rec for Occupy Wall Street heroes!!!
Phentex
(16,334 posts)Talking about ows in the early stages saying "what do they want? They don't seem to be very organized" etc.
I might send her the link to rolling jubilee. 
upi402
(16,854 posts)Truth, justice, and the American way - were on the side of Occupy Wall Street.
The right wing media had zip.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)
Occupy Wall Street is a leaderless resistance movement with people of many colors, genders and political persuasions. The one thing we all have in common is that We Are The 99% that will no longer tolerate the greed and corruption of the 1%. We are using the revolutionary Arab Spring tactic to achieve our ends and encourage the use of nonviolence to maximize the safety of all participants.
the only solution is WorldRevolution
upi402
(16,854 posts)RESPECT
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Change has come
(2,372 posts)
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)
winstars
(4,220 posts)This is a really, really good idea. It doesn't erase someones bad credit "baddie" from their credit reports, the original missed payment or charge offs, etc from the original creditor (OC) remains on someones report but it prevents scum debt collectors or collection agencies (CA) from harassing people and collecting on people who mostly do not have to pay due to statute of limitations (SOL) anyway. And it prevents the scum debt collectors (CA) from adding "baddies" to your credit report in addition to the one from the OC because you don't answer their threatening letters or harassing phone calls from them or really don't have the money to pay!!! The CA adding a "baddie" to your credit report from an old debt can really impact your scores, they will make it look like it is brand new "baddie" and scare any and all lenders from dealing with you. The idea of preventing this from happening to people is huge.
What they are doing is buying old debts from OC's like CC companies or telco's or department stores that write it off anyway but normally sell this "old paper" to debt collectors and also to junk debt collectors. The junk debt collectors are the real scum that buy debts that are technically out of SOL, (hence the "junk" part) dependent of what state you live in and then trick you into paying by offering to "settle" for less than the full amount of the debt you might not actually be legally required to pay!!!
The RollingJubilee.org people say they can buy debt for pennies on the dollar. That's at the bare minimum. I have seen where the debt collection agencies buy like $1,000,000 of debt for $15,000!!! So these actions by the above people can make a real difference with a very small amount of money. Its not gonna change a lot of peoples lives but the idea of keeping some scumbag debt collector from calling one less person is very, very appealing to me. Buying these debt packages cannot really be targeted to specific people, although I believe you (they) can buy specific kinds of debt. For instance, I would love my donation to go toward people who owe PAYDAY LENDERS who we know target the poorest among us and military families too. For now this is not possible but...
After all the politicos begging me for dough recently, I thought this could be something I could help with, with my limited resources, that might be a better and bigger bang for my buck. I sent $25.00 to them which could retire maybe thousands of dollars of somebody's debt. (math not my strong point clearly...)
To me, its sorta like sending $$$ for mosquito nets, you may not be sure who will benefit from it but a little can go a long way. Some people have said why give the Banksters this money, even if its just a little. I don't really have an answer for that but I do know that if my $25.00 stops some scumbag from calling somebody just as they sit down to dinner one night or that same person doesn't get their mail with some douchebag threatening letter in the pile, then yes, this is a good thing...
Kaleva
(36,309 posts)winstars
(4,220 posts)to understand how it all works.
6502
(249 posts)http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/11/16/occupy-wall-street-rolling-jubilee/
While the article is not gushing or particularly supportive, it does provide a link to some kind of debt resistance guide that they say was written by Occupy.
Also, check out the real OccupyWall Street site for other overviews. (sorry, I'm posting from a mobile phone... can't search now...)
Sadly, the MSM would report on this without a link to Occupy or any sites related to this.
Even sadder is that the liberal press, like the OP's link had done the same thing.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)
ck4829
(35,077 posts)K&R
