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Thu Nov 15, 2012, 07:29 PM

"I've started telling my daughters I'm beautiful"


"I've started telling my girls that I think I'm beautiful. It's been so easy to tell them how beautiful THEY are, because it's obvious. They are the thing beauty is made of. They are the reason we started worshipping beauty. They sparkle and dance. When they're sleeping, they turn into soft cloud babies, little perfect tufts of white on the moonlight.
There are a lot of people like me. Women who know things. Women who have seen things. Women with diseases in their livers. There are a lot of women with scars on their arms and words that carry themselves like sparrows. There are women who were too big for this town, who had their backs bent carrying things like religion and a history that originated somewhere in the crook of a branch that extended over a stream. A place where a patch of the sky was visible through the leaves, where a little girl let her bare leg dangle too far down.

There are a lot of people like me, because we're all the same. We're all blood and electricity. We're lonely under the gaze of god. We're all wet with dew and swallowing hard against DO THIS, CONSUME, SHUT UP and BE AFRAID to die.

All of you women with lines on your brow, with cracks between your fingers… it's been a long winter. All of you, you are beautiful and so am I."

Read more:

http://offbeatmama.com/2012/11/telling-daughters-im-beautiful

I have a son, and I am going to start saying this around him as well - this really opened my eyes in many ways.

75 replies, 6944 views

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Reply "I've started telling my daughters I'm beautiful" (Original post)
ehrnst Nov 2012 OP
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #1
one_voice Nov 2012 #2
abelenkpe Nov 2012 #3
Arugula Latte Nov 2012 #5
felix_numinous Nov 2012 #4
GreenStormCloud Nov 2012 #6
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #7
GreenStormCloud Nov 2012 #8
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #9
GreenStormCloud Nov 2012 #13
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #14
GreenStormCloud Nov 2012 #17
MadrasT Nov 2012 #27
GreenStormCloud Nov 2012 #31
ehrnst Nov 2012 #38
Tsiyu Nov 2012 #39
Bonobo Nov 2012 #26
HappyMe Nov 2012 #11
lunamagica Nov 2012 #60
Brickbat Nov 2012 #10
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #12
GreenStormCloud Nov 2012 #15
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #16
GreenStormCloud Nov 2012 #18
cate94 Nov 2012 #21
GreenStormCloud Nov 2012 #24
cate94 Nov 2012 #32
ehrnst Nov 2012 #56
ehrnst Nov 2012 #40
treestar Nov 2012 #25
GreenStormCloud Nov 2012 #28
treestar Nov 2012 #49
Laelth Nov 2012 #34
ehrnst Nov 2012 #37
Laelth Nov 2012 #47
ehrnst Nov 2012 #55
Laelth Nov 2012 #58
treestar Nov 2012 #50
Arugula Latte Nov 2012 #52
treestar Nov 2012 #61
Laelth Nov 2012 #59
treestar Nov 2012 #62
Laelth Nov 2012 #71
treestar Nov 2012 #75
antigone382 Nov 2012 #67
Laelth Nov 2012 #72
antigone382 Nov 2012 #73
ehrnst Nov 2012 #36
Arugula Latte Nov 2012 #51
Smarmie Doofus Nov 2012 #54
Major Nikon Nov 2012 #63
LanternWaste Nov 2012 #65
antigone382 Nov 2012 #66
Tsiyu Nov 2012 #69
southernyankeebelle Nov 2012 #19
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #20
southernyankeebelle Nov 2012 #45
GreenStormCloud Nov 2012 #23
Tsiyu Nov 2012 #41
GreenStormCloud Nov 2012 #42
Tsiyu Nov 2012 #43
antigone382 Nov 2012 #68
southernyankeebelle Nov 2012 #44
cate94 Nov 2012 #22
Bonobo Nov 2012 #29
a kennedy Nov 2012 #33
southernyankeebelle Nov 2012 #46
liberal_at_heart Nov 2012 #48
southernyankeebelle Nov 2012 #64
Smarmie Doofus Nov 2012 #53
Major Nikon Nov 2012 #70
Mc Mike Nov 2012 #30
Shanti Mama Nov 2012 #35
BlancheSplanchnik Nov 2012 #74
prefunk Nov 2012 #57

Response to ehrnst (Original post)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 07:55 PM

1. that is lovely. Thank you

Yes now that I'm getting older I am coming to accept and love myself. I no longer care if I fit society's definition of beauty. Life is too short to worry about such things. We are beautiful and life is beautiful. Enjoy life.

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Response to ehrnst (Original post)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 08:10 PM

2. lovely.

K&R

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Response to ehrnst (Original post)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 08:11 PM

3. My daughter asked once why I had stripes on my forehead

I told her all stripes were signs of wisdom...

She thinks Google is a wise woman who lives in the computer.

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Response to abelenkpe (Reply #3)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 08:20 PM

5. Hah! I like that. "Stripes."

I've earned my stripes.

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Response to ehrnst (Original post)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 08:18 PM

4. K&R!!

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Response to ehrnst (Original post)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 08:26 PM

6. What we commonly consider beauty in women are signs of fertility.

Evolution built into men a program for estimating the fertility of a woman. Those men who obeyed that program fathered more children, those who didn't fathered fewer or none. After millions of year that program is hardwired into the male brain, even if they aren't aware of it. Female beauty is another name for female sexual attractiveness. So men are programmed to desire youth, 70% waist to hip ratio, 30% body fat, etc. No amount of politically correct consciousness raising is going to change millions of years of evolution. It is what it is.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #6)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 08:51 PM

7. well then I think evolution may have gotten it wrong this time

There are plenty of fertile unattractive women and lots of beautiful women who have to have fertility treatments to conceive.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #7)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 08:56 PM

8. Your argument is with science, not with me.

There are often individual exceptions to anything medical. Evolution works on the large scale and allows occasional exceptions. Your argument is the same as: "Cigarettes don't cause cancer. I know young people who died of cancer and my 90 year old granmother smokes three packs a day."

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #8)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 09:02 PM

9. there have been plenty of times during history when heavy women were considered sexy

It is more societal than evolutionary. In the past African women were considered attractive if they stretched their necks and Japanese women were once considered beautiful if they wore horrible shoes that deformed their feet.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #9)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 09:37 PM

13. Those were class signs of higher status.

Among apes social status increases sexual attractiveness. The higher status apes have greater access to food, better shelter, etc. which increases survival rates of offspring. So they become prized mates.

Stretched necks and deformed feet interfered with a woman's ability to work so she needed servants to help her. Only the higher status females could have servants. Heavy women had more food or they wouldn't be heavy.

But the medical fact still remains that at 30% body fat a woman is at her greatest fetility and ability to concieve and care for a baby.

Young women are healthier, and have less genetic damage to their eggs.

Narrow hips mean a narrow birth canal and difficulty in child bearing.

A smooth complexion shows a lack of parasites.

A facial shape closer to average showed a lack of deformaties.

This stuff has been greatly studied and books written about it. You are putting yourself in the position of Creationists who argue against evolution.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #13)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 09:41 PM

14. What a bunch of crap

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #14)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 09:45 PM

17. Your argument is with science, not with me.

Sometimes evolution pops conservative ballons, and they howl. We laugh and call them anti-science.

Sometimes evolution pops liberal ballons, and liberals howl. How are they any different from conservatives in being anti-science?

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #17)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 06:11 AM

27. Citing a few "facts"

and wrapping a narrative fairy tale around them is not "science."

Hilarious, though.

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Response to MadrasT (Reply #27)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 06:35 AM

31. There isn't enough room to write a book here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_attractiveness
Physical attractiveness is the degree to which a person's physical traits are regarded as aesthetically pleasing or beautiful. The term often implies sexual attractiveness or desirability, but can also be distinct from the two; for example, humans may regard the young as attractive for various reasons, but without sexual attraction. There are many factors which influence one person's attraction to another, with physical aspects being one of them. In many cases, humans attribute positive characteristics, such as intelligence and honesty, to physically attractive people without consciously realizing it. From research done in the United States and United Kingdom, it was found that the association between intelligence and physical attractiveness is stronger among men than among women. In recent times, evolutionary psychologists have tried to answer why individuals who are more physically attractive should also on average be more intelligent, and have put forward the notion that both general intelligence and physical attractiveness may be indicators of underlying genetic fitness.

Physical attractiveness is a characteristic that suggests fertility and health. These factors contribute to the probability of survival and reproduction for continuing life on Earth. Men, on average, tend to be attracted to women who are shorter than they are, have a youthful appearance, and exhibit features such as a symmetrical face, full breasts, full lips, and a low waist-hip ratio. Women, on average, tend to be attracted to men who are taller than they are, display a high-degree of facial symmetry, masculine facial dimorphism, and who have broad shoulders, a relatively narrow waist, and V-shaped torso.

More at link. Long article, well worth the read.

I can suggest some books on the topic.

The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature by Matt Ridley

Anatomy of Love: A Natural History of Mating, Marriage, and Why We Stray by Helen Fisher

It is a field that has been well researched.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #31)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 09:04 AM

38. The article is about how a woman is showing her daughters how to see themselves

The point of the article is about the way the women can be learn to see themselves despite a culture that currently idolizes an anorexic 14 year old as an ideal of beauty.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #31)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 09:05 AM

39. Then please explain why this 53-year-old - well past fertility aged - woman



still gets hit on by young men?

You think you've got it all figured out, but there are quite a few couples - including same sex couples - who shatter your argument.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I know lots of "big women" who have fantastic romantic lives, and lots of cocksure guys like you who get nuthin'

By your science, no scrawny, paunchy looking guys should have partners either, since woman should be only attracted to manly men who can go out and club the wooly mammoth. Yet lots of skinny, anemic, pimply guys have sex lives, and plenty of amputees and otherwise afflicted veterans have wives - and active sex lives.

People are not as mindless or hardwired as you claim.

Science can't explain it so easily....go watch "Something's Gotta Give" and accept the fact that your theories are just theories and don't actually apply to the real world - even if they work quite nicely in your head.











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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #9)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 06:00 AM

26. Umm, that was China, not Japan. nt

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #7)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 09:12 PM

11. Whatever.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #7)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 01:20 PM

60. Marilyn Monroe and Sophia Loren come to mind

Both bodies seemed so perfect for motherhood; yet Marilyn could never have children and Sophia had very difficult pregnancies and needed months of bed rest to have her two sons

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #6)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 09:10 PM

10. Way to miss the point.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #10)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 09:13 PM

12. I know, right?

It's not about what men find attractive. It's about us valuing ourselves and finding the beauty in who we are and how we look.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #12)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 09:42 PM

15. I'm old and fat. I don't try to convince myself that I am handsome.

I don't need that fiction to feel good about myself. Although for health reasons I do need to lose the weight.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #15)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 09:43 PM

16. on ignore, bye bye

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #16)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 09:52 PM

18. Just like the Creationists who reject science. N/T

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #15)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 10:23 PM

21. Your science

is only concerned with how men perceive the beauty of women.

That isn't what the OP is about. The OP is about self perception and self acceptance. I can't imagine why anyone would want to undermine someone's self perception.

Personally, I could care less what tradition or science says is beautiful. Beauty is subjective.

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Response to cate94 (Reply #21)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 11:02 PM

24. A self-perception that is at odds with reality is a delusion.

Let me know when a fat 70 yr old wins Miss America, or appears in the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #24)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 07:36 AM

32. Your idea of beauty is extrememly distorted

if you think a person has to win Miss America or be on the cover of Sports Illustrated to be beautiful.

Once again, you think men determine what is beautiful. Men are less than half the population. Men don't get to determine what is or isn't beautiful to the rest of us.

Beautiy is in the eye of the beholder. And guess what? Not all of the people looking are men trying to reproduce.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #24)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 11:57 AM

56. The mom isn't saying "I can win a beauty contest" She's saying, "I'm beautiful"

Which is to grant yourself approval - instead of seeking it with a diet, plastic surgery, dangerously high heels, etc.

Is that clearer?

BTW - I'm 50 and my husband thinks I'm beautiful. I have never won a beauty contest, nor have I been on the cover of a swimsuit issue.

Am I delusional to believe him and share his opinion?

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #12)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 09:07 AM

40. Yes!!!! (nt)

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 05:51 AM

25. Oh gee, we're being told this again

We get this lecture whenever we try to rebel.

Men aren't as fertile when they are older either. And they aren't as attractive either. They sag too.

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Response to treestar (Reply #25)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 06:14 AM

28. Yes. I am old and fat and had a vascetomy.

I don't try to pretend that I am still handsome. I don't need that fiction for my feelings of self-worth. I get my self esteem from what I do and my other attributes, not from my looks.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #28)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 10:42 AM

49. And so should women.

Every time this subject comes up, someone is sure to tell us men are "hard wired" only to judge us on our looks. That's usually because they enjoy the advantage they believe "science" gives them. Well as a woman I would pick out my potential fathers based on strength and looks too. Then your argument is with science that men don't enjoy that advantage.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 08:46 AM

34. Spot on. On course, many people don't want to hear this argument.

But I admire your response, i.e their argument is with science and not with you.

As always, the cornerstone of a liberal mindset is the desire to see the world as it is and not as we wish it to be. (We have to be honest about the world in order to see how to change it for the better.) I admire your steadfast devotion to reality in the face of so many who wish the world to be otherwise.

-Laelth

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Response to Laelth (Reply #34)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 09:01 AM

37. But the point of the article is about how women view themselves, despite society

She is saying that the girls can indeed have good self esteem, even in a culture that worships anorexic ideals.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #37)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 09:49 AM

47. Indeed. That is the point of the article.

And I quite enjoyed it. I found it beautiful.

I would add, however, that I'm not comfortable with your "despite society" qualifier. I believe that GreenStormCloud was making a distinction between sexually-desirable/fertile (i.e. biological beauty) and some kind of social construct like true-beauty/inner-beauty. The OP is talking about a social construct, i.e. true-beauty/inner-beauty, whereas GreenStormCloud is discussing biological and evolutionary beauty (which are not social constructs, imo).

So, if you're saying that GreenStormCloud's post was slightly off topic, you may have a point. If you're saying that beauty, as described above by GreenStormCloud, is a social construct, I disagree. I think it's biological and evolutionary. That's been my experience, in any event.

-Laelth

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Response to Laelth (Reply #47)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 11:53 AM

55. The anorexic-14 year-old beauty esthetic of magazines and Hollywood

construct of beauty is not only the basis of a multi-million dollar a year diet and cosmetic surgery industry, it's also tied to an epidemic of eating disorders, be it biologically based or not. I think that the 'social construct' is overriding the "childbearing hips' beauty ideal, insofar as the self esteem of women is concerned.

I do believe GreenStormCloud's post was off-topic. But the entire point of this woman's saying "I'm beautiful" to her daughters, even though she is outside of society's/evolution's/ Madison Avenue's current ideals/constructs of beauty. She's saying to her daughters that it's possible to see yourself independently of those ideals, and she is bucking the system - be it social or biological, whatever.




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Response to ehrnst (Reply #55)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 12:47 PM

58. I hear you, but 30% body fat is hardly anorexic.

And if you review GreenStormCloud's posts above, you will find that he notes (following the research of numerous scientists) that men seem to be most attracted to women whose weight is composed of 30% fat.

Yes, anorexia is bad. Eating disorders are bad. The culture of cosmetic surgery is bad, but it also seems true, to me, that men are most sexually-attracted to women whose weight is composed of approximately 30% fat. And this is so for solid, biologically-driven fertility reasons, as noted by many scientists and as relayed by GreenStormCloud above. In addition, I would note that the ideal of beauty described in the OP is a social construct, just as much as the one that says women need to be anorexic in order to be beautiful. I agree with you that the social construct conveyed by the OP is healthier than the one purveyed by Hollywood.

-Laelth

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Response to Laelth (Reply #34)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 10:45 AM

50. It's how men wish it to be

That science favors them. They are always sexually attractive and women lose that. My scientific observation is that I find 20 somethings more attractive generally than oldies. We are not looking for old rich men in preference to youths with six packs.

This is especially so since the sexual revolution, when women stopped staying in their place as men had assigned it. No more Victorian 18 year olds marrying 40 year old men - an older man who gets a younger woman is only going to be one who stayed in shape and was good looking to start.

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Response to treestar (Reply #50)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 10:50 AM

52. Oh, it's funny how money seems to make up for a lack of looks with some people.

And that's starting to work the other way now, with younger men and older, richer women.

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #52)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 01:30 PM

61. If those people want to make that sacrifice

I for one, could not, and it would not be "nature" or science to do so. In fact the older spouse in those pairings may often find that the younger is having an affair with - yep, a young, good looking person.

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Response to treestar (Reply #50)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 01:09 PM

59. I think the science shows that women are sexually attracted ...

... to specific biological factors in men as well. I don't think this science is particularly gender-exclusive (i.e. it doesn't just apply to men or just to women). If I recall, I think women are most attracted to men who are not bald and who have approximately 15% body fat. Women are also most sexually-attracted to men with high testosterone levels because testosterone is an immuno-suppressant, and the biological logic for this preference is that a boy with high testosterone who survives childhood has got to have a killer immune system or he would have never survived. Thus, women who mate with men who have high testosterone levels are more likely to produce children with superior immune systems.

This stuff works both ways. Personally, as a short, balding, moderate-testosterone man, I might wish that this science were inaccurate or flawed, but it appears pretty solid to me, and I would say the same about the science that describes men's preferences in women. Life would be a lot easier for men if they were sexually attracted to a wider range of body types, complexions, bone structures, etc., but for most of us, it appears, that's just not the case.

I prefer to see the world as it is, not as I wish it to be. This science may not be wishful thinking. It may be solid science, and I would argue that this science does not, in any way, "favor" men, as you suggest.

-Laelth

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Response to Laelth (Reply #59)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 01:35 PM

62. You're telling women what they want and what they are attracted to

The "studies" it is based on are flawed too - by what the studier wants to come out. These questions cannot be reduced to science, since people have children by who they have children with for tons of reasons. Men might marry ugly women whose fathers have a lot of money.

We are all more attractive when young. Nothing very "scientific" about that. We age at equal rates (in fact men go bald more and do less about their overall looks). As for money, either sex can have it, and having that as your attraction is no big advantage - who really wants to be with someone when you know it's got to do with your money? And you can have that money for many reasons.

And there is also the indefinable quality some people have, which cannot be measured scientifically - that makes them more attractive than others who would appear to have the advantage.

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Response to treestar (Reply #62)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 03:33 PM

71. I'm telling women what they want?

I wish that worked. In fact, as I review my own history as a sexual being, I think I have been telling women for years that what they really want is me. That strategy has failed me repeatedly. LOL.

I think the science is a much better indicator of what women really want (and what men really want). It doesn't appear flawed to me.

You are absolutely right to note that human mating behavior is very complicated. I will add, though, that it appears men are much less complicated than women (on this particular subject). Men appear to be more sexually-attracted to women who have a .7 hip to waist ratio, 30% body fat, a small jaw and full lips (signs of high estrogen), a clear complexion, and a 16-30 age range (for maximum fertility). A woman with those things is highly desirable as a mate to almost all men. Women, on the other hand, while they all seem to find men sexually desirable who are tall, with a full head of hair, 15% body fat, and with signs of high testosterone, are also attuned to much more subtle pheromone indicators. Mrs. Laelth says that, in part, she judges a man's sexual attractiveness by his smell, and it seems likely that women are hard-wired to determine, by smell, which particular men would make a good genetic mixes with their own genetic code ... for what that's worth.

The fact that many people choose life mates based upon other factors (compatibility, money, social status, etc.) does not, in my mind, change the fact that humans seem to be hard-wired to find certain biological traits desirable, i.e. beautiful. The fact that many people choose to mate with people who do not share the traits people find most desirable does not prove that the research described here is flawed in any way.

-Laelth

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Response to Laelth (Reply #71)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 10:59 PM

75. The third paragraph is practically insane

People just are not like that. IN fact most people end up with someone roughly as attractive as they are. People don't measure others and determine whether they are attracted based on that.

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Response to Laelth (Reply #34)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 01:55 PM

67. This post is far from scientifically correct. See post #66

Human culture and society is my field of study. It is my job to be aware of the latest and most all-encompassing research on these topics.

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #67)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 03:48 PM

72. Thanks for pointing me to your post below.

I believe in social constructs. "Beauty ideals" undoubtedly do affect cultural attitudes about what is desirable in a mate.

In no way, however, does that prove that the science described in post #6 is flawed. Perhaps I am not fully following your logic.

-Laelth

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Response to Laelth (Reply #72)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 04:13 PM

73. Well he doesn't actually reference specific science.

At least two of his premises are flaws: ideal waist-to-hip ratios and body-fat percentages have varied considerably across time and history. In many cultures around the world, including African, Alaskan-native, and even Renaissance European cultures, fuller figured women were considered the most attractive.

And the ideal chest-waist-hip ratios over time in Western culture have been closely correlated with ideas about appropriate roles and aspirations for women. Even within American culture, there is a lot of talk about the different definitions of beauty for women of different races: women of color are idealized for having curves, while white women are generally only considered beautiful if they are thin.

Age I cannot specifically speak to, but I'd say there is still a range there. A woman thought to be in the prime of her youth at 27 these days would be considered an old maid just 100 years ago.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 08:59 AM

36. Yes, but this article is about the way the women should be shown to see themselves

despite the way that men may or may not see beauty.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 10:49 AM

51. I get what you're saying about evolution (while missing the point of the piece), but

just want to point out that obviously Desirable Evolutionary Trait Rd. is a two-way street, with women seeking certain characteristics in men.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 10:57 AM

54. I guess my program was cancelled.

Or maybe my wiring's loose.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 01:47 PM

63. The problem with this theory is that there's no universal standard for beauty

Some cultures value wide hips. Some cultures value narrow hips. Some cultures value lighter skin. Some cultures value darker skin. On and on it goes.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 01:52 PM

65. Also cultural, psychological and market influences...

Also cultural, psychological and market influences. We often fail ourselves when limiting our premise to one and only one metric.

Your argument is with Madison Avenue, not me.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 01:54 PM

66. Beauty ideals are very profoundly affected by culture.

There are very few beauty ideals that are constant across all cultures, such as clear skin and general symmetry. Ideal skin tone, body mass, and waist-to-hips-to-chest ratios have varied considerably over time, across cultures, and among individuals. There are specific ideals that are even more uniquely tied to culture, such as hair length, and those that are tied to extreme body modification within cultures, including piercings, tattoos, "lotus feet" achieved by foot binding, necks artificially lengthened by metal rings, and even female genital cutting. Attractiveness is inextricably bound up with culture, and anyone who claims that it is easy or clear cut to determine where culture stops and biology begins is profoundly ignorant of the real findings of cultural and physical anthropology, sociobiology, and psychology.

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #66)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 02:08 PM

69. Hey! You're beautiful!



and so am I

and so are all the women of DU








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Response to ehrnst (Original post)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 10:14 PM

19. I embrace my age. It took me a long time to get here. Every night I go to bed I pray

 

to the good lord to help keep me going so I can see my granddaughter grow up. I love her so. I love my son but he is grown his daughter is my world along with my husband. I thank god everyday for my husband who always tells me I'm beautiful even though I know am falling apart. I am obese, losing some teeth because of bone disease but he treats me like a queen. He make me feel like a queen. I tell my granddaughter she is beautiful and I also tell my daugther-in-law she is beautiful (she really is). It is up to us to give positive signs to our daughters and granddaughters. I am lucky to be 65 and have no wrinkles yet. But I do have grey beautiful short hair and I have had scares from surgery and medical issues. But am lucky god blesses me. I want to be able to see my granddaughter to reach 18 yrs old. I don't want her to forget me ever. I love her so. Blessings to everyone.

There is one more thing I tell my granddaughter: Dream big; Work hard; Believe in yourself and don't let anyone tell you that you can't do what you want. Start when your grandchild or your child is young. My granddaughter remembers when all I have to say is Dream .......and she fills in the blanks.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #19)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 10:17 PM

20. Isn't it great to have a husband who adores you?

My husband tells me everday that I'm beautiful and he loves me. Appreciating those you love and who love you back is what makes life sweet.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #20)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 09:43 AM

45. Oh yes it is especially the way things are today. I watched the Housewives shows and you

 

see how they have everything but deep down they don't seem really happy. Who wants to live up to being a barbie doll with all that botox. They look terrible.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #19)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 10:54 PM

23. My wife embraces her age and I adore her for it.

I don't pretend that she can grace the centerfold of Playboy, nor does she need that kind of compliment. I emphasis her other wonderful qualities, her intelligence, her perceptiveness, her kindness. I hug here several times per day and often reach out to touch her. To touch her still gives me a warm happiness. I still love to caress her body. I don't want a young hottie because that wouldn't be her. Love involves so much more than just physical beauty, and those who obcess over physical beauty miss so much.

She can still surprise me. She has never shown an interest in puzzles, such as crossword or find-a-word. A few weeks ago we tried a sudoku for the first time. Now she has become an ace at solving the most difficult ones quickly. I am not surprised that she is good at it, only that she enjoys it.

You said: Dream big; Work hard; Believe in yourself and don't let anyone tell you that you can't do what you want. I agree. I said the same thing to my daughter.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #23)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 09:14 AM

41. Then why the hell did you feel the need to come one this thread and lecture?



Why don't you tell your wife and daughter how they "don't quite measure up to the scientific parameters for beauty?"

The point of the thread was to celebrate our human selves, and yet you felt you had to come on here and define how we're all wrong about that?

I could say more, but I'll leave it at those questions....




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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #41)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 09:24 AM

42. The thread is trying to use beauty as a measure.

Trying to call yourself beautiful when you aren't is persuing a delusion. People should be objective in accessing themselves, and find self-worth in postive things about themselves that are true, and work to improve those things that they can. The English language has many fine words for those other good attributes. Trying to call them beauty distorts the language. Compliments should always be objectively true. A lie told to make someone feel good is still a lie. Usually the person will know that the complimentor is lying and so their trust in the truthfulness of that person will decrease.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #42)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 09:29 AM

43. What?

Are you serious?

So no one should ever feel beautiful unless they can grace the centerfold of one of your porn mags?

For FUCKS sake, go crawl back under your rock and look at your porn and let the rest of the grownups have a nice thread.



UNBELIEVABLE


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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #42)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 02:00 PM

68. But beauty is not the purely scientific thing you make it out to be.

It is inherently a subjective measure, and is profoundly influenced by culture, as I have made clear up thread. There are very few aspects of human appearance that are universally, cross-culturally appealing.

In addition, there are different kinds of beauty than those that inspire sexual attraction. A gnarled tree is beautiful. A jagged mountain range is beautiful. A muted, overcast November day can be beautiful. The qualities that we find beautiful in these images; toughness, majesty, and even quiet stoicism, can be beautiful in humans as well.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #23)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 09:40 AM

44. You are just like my husband. I'm lucky because he is 7 yrs young than I. I love him

 

more every day even after 34 yrs of marriage. You know that is what marriage is about getting pass that you aren't the young chick any longer. My husband said he never wanted a model, or a playboy type girl. He wanted a woman who was kind, had a sense of humor and would be a good wife. Your right for us being together is what it is about. I try to tell my son and his wife that is what life is about. I kinda get upset with them because they fight over small silly stuff. I asked him once aren't you tired of fighting all the time? I told him they have to learn to deal with issues and fighting and yelling isn't going to do it. I told him it gets better but the most important thing in a marriage is communication.

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Response to ehrnst (Original post)

Thu Nov 15, 2012, 10:27 PM

22. K & R

This is wonderful. Thanks for sharing.

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Response to ehrnst (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 06:23 AM

29. Most men go through their entire lives without being told they are beautiful

Most do not ever experience being told how attractive or desirable they are whether young or old.

Just saying.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #29)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 08:00 AM

33. I tell my husband he's handsome at least 3 - 4 times a week....

especially when he's driving his convertible Mazda.......

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #29)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 09:48 AM

46. Well I have a husband who has gotten better looking with age. I tell him always how

 

good looking he is. But what makes him even better looking is who he is on the inside. He is on the skinny side and am on the heavy side but we see pass what we think aren't great about ourselves and see something very different. Beauty really is only skin deep. As you get older something keeps a couple together. Its the love and respect of your partner and open communication. I am glad the good lord put my husband in my life.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #46)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 10:03 AM

48. I love what you said about getting older there is just something that

keeps a couple together. I feel the same way. I think it is how much life beats up on you. If you can find someone who will be there for you and for whom you can be there for after all the things life does to you then you really have something special. Sometimes I forget to tell my husband he is attractive but I always tell him I love him and appreciate him. I probably should tell him how attractive I think he is more often.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #48)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 01:50 PM

64. You know we all need to feel appreciated. Your husband is lucky and he is lucky to have

 

you. You know its really simple but again communication is the key. My hubby works nights so when he comes home he greets me with a hello and a kiss. I try to make him something special to each when he gets up. He always kisses me before he goes back to lay down before he goes to work and when he leaves for work. Yes its the little things you do. Sometimes he justs buys a card that says I'm thinking of you with a candy bar. You are surprised that he thought enough of you to bring you something. If people do the little things to show you appreciate them that is all they want to make a marriage work. You know that doesn't have anything to do with sex either. I'm happy for you. You get it. You pray your kids get it and have happy marriages. It's not always easy but you work through it.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #29)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 10:53 AM

53. True. n/t

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #29)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 02:49 PM

70. I tell myself that all the time

I just need to get someone to agree with me.

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Response to ehrnst (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 06:29 AM

30. +1, e.

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Response to ehrnst (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 08:47 AM

35. I love and depend on DU, but...

this conversation is why I rarely begin posts. Complete forests are missed while trees are analyzed, hacked to smithereens.
I loved this piece.
Thank you.

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Response to Shanti Mama (Reply #35)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 05:27 PM

74. +a jillion

axes to grind... (I know I have my own. sometimes I refrain from posting because I realize I'm thinking with my axe!)

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Response to ehrnst (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 12:01 PM

57. +100000000!

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