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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI Wouldn't Have Believed Things Like This Do Happen...Until I Witnessed It Myself.
I have an older sister who has lived in Spain ever since meeting and marrying a Spanish national during her time at university there, and she flew into town last week for a visit that will last until after the holidays.
She is staying with my parents, and her son, my nephew, flew down from Syracuse University where he teaches to see his mother and visit with the rest of the family.
When I was over my folks having dinner with everyone on Saturday and catching up on things, I mentioned that I was going to go shopping on Sunday at Costco, and my sister asked if she could tag along, as she had never been to one, and would like to see what they have and see if she get some early holiday shopping done.
I said, sure, the more the merrier, and my nephew said that he wanted to go, too.
Anyway, we did some shopping, my sister and her son bought a bunch of stuff, I spent way more than I intended to (I do that every damn time I go to Costco!) and we proceeded to the checkout.
Now, when my sister and her son converse together, they automatically revert to speaking Catalan, which is the dialect of Valencia, where they live. As we were standing in line, my nephew asked his mother a question, and she answered in Catalan, discussing an item that he had picked out for his father back in Spain.
A woman standing in front of us in line turned briefly to look at us, then turned away. I thought nothing of it.
Until...
My sister asked me if I had any problems when I voted this past week, and I told her no, as I always either vote early or absentee, as I never know if my schedule would allow me to be home for voting day.
My nephew said that he was excited to get to vote for Barack Obama yet again, as he was very popular back in Spain, and this was the first time he did so on American soil. My sister said the same thing, she was so happy that she got to vote for someone that is making a difference in this country.
That made the woman standing in front of us whip her head around and ask, "What are you foreigners doing voting in our elections? Who gives people from Spain the right to vote in this country?"
I started to laugh. She glared at me. I asked my sister if she wanted to tell our new friend what the deal was, or should I?
My sister said to the woman, "Ma'am, no that it's any of your business, but I am an American citizen, and have been so longer than you've been alive. My son is also an American citizen, and as citizens living overseas we vote in every national election held in this country. And we vote Democratic every election, just as we vote the Socialist Party back home in Spain."
If looks were knives, we would have been sliced to ribbons.
It was a good thing her husband wasn't there with us, he was educated at Oxford and taught at Cambridge for a year or two, and speaks English with a notable British accent.
The poor woman would have blown a fuse.
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)MineralMan
(146,373 posts)no American can speak any other language than poor English. Good comeback from your sister to that moronic woman.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)She reads, writes and speaks English, Spanish, Catalan, French, Italian, and is learning German.
My nephew Alejandro speaks all of those along with Latin, Greek, Hebrew, and I think he also knows a little Polish for some reason.
He and his father converse in archaic Greek with each other.
MineralMan
(146,373 posts)Only commies and fellow-travelers learn other languages.
femrap
(13,418 posts)to speak all those languages.
Why we don't teach foreign languages in grade school is beyond me. That's when it is easy to learn them.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)I'm fluent in English ( ) and American Sign Language. Being very visual and kinesthetic, ASL was easy to learn.
Spoken languages not so much!
wish I could have seen the circuits blow!!!!
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)The whole damn thing.
Three volumes, 800 or so odd pages.
He said it seemed fitting to write it in the same language used by so many of the greatest philosophers who ever pondered the questions of human existence.
He's nuts.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)oh yeah, I forgot. I speak Greek too, but I can't demonstrate it right now--- cuz I am speechless!
I consider myself pretty smart, but I think I'll just go dig some ditches now.........
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)"World class mono-linguists." That is sadly true of too many Americans.
TahitiNut
(71,611 posts).. when you have nothing worth saying and there's nobody who wants to hear anyway.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)What's really sad is when you say another country could be patriotic and they give you a blank look and then scream, "What the hell do they have to be patriotic about? They live in a shithole!" (They all parrot the word "shithole" too,....SQUAWK!)
vlyons
(10,252 posts)outdoor signage should be in English. Indeed, he thinks it sould be against the law for billboards to be in Spanish. So much for free speech, eh?
dballance
(5,756 posts)might have felt listening to my Cuban-American friends in Miami all speaking Spanish in the Costco line. All of them home-grown US citizens. Born and bred here.
MineralMan
(146,373 posts)Here, polling place signs are in English, Hmong, Somali, and Spanish. This year, in my precinct's polling place, a group of kids were available to do translations for Hmong speakers who needed assistance. They were all high school students who volunteered. Their grandparents were voting, and many of them have relatively poor English skills, even though they were naturalized years ago.
BTW, we elected a Hmong immigrant to be the State Senator for our district, which makes up most of St. Paul. He speaks fluent Hmong, as well as fluent English and handles Spanish pretty well, too. Foung Hawj (pronounced Fong Her) is a very nice man, and a real progressive to boot. I helped campaign for him. That woman's head would explode.
dballance
(5,756 posts)I'm not surprised an immigrant handles multiple languages better than most of us born here. I think most of them have a totally different outlook than us "natives."
JohnnyRingo
(18,753 posts)There has to be a reason why she wasn't at one. Should have asked.
I think ya nailed that one.
Carolina
(6,960 posts)After "schooling" the rude woman, your sister and nephew should have started talking about her in Spanish or the Catalan dialect (?).
I just love it. People like her are rude (she butt in your conversation!), ignorant (no knowledge of Americans abroad, probably a birther too since Hawaii is foreign!) and mean (her tone).
They deserve in-your-face-comeuppance. It was almost like: "Proceed, Governor!"
alfredo
(60,085 posts)eShirl
(18,517 posts)hfojvt
(37,573 posts)that she has lived in Spain, for what, 30 years, but is still an American citizen. I mean I was a Wisconsinite for about ten years, from 1987-1988 and 1990-1999, but I don't still get to vote in Wisconsin, even though I owned property there until 2009. She is somewhat shielded from the consequences of her vote, living in Spain.
Aristus
(66,651 posts)Your post doesn't make any sense. If you don't live in Wisconsin, you don't get to vote there. You register to vote wherever it is that you live; states don't offer citizenship. Citizenship is at the Federal level.
And U.S. citizenship doesn't expire, like milk left out on the counter. If you don't renounce your citizenship, or have it revoked through treasonous acts, then you possess it for life. I don't care how long she lives in Spain; if she is a U.S. citizen, she gets to vote in U.S. elections.
And no American is "shielded" from the consequences of their vote. Wherever in the world we live, we want to know that our country is in steady hands.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)I'd be willing to bet that you personally cast a few votes yourself, from foreign shores, and are acquainted with a few others who have also done so.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)"Wherever in the world we live, we want to know that our country is in steady hands."
Words from how many Bush voters?
And when Bush wrecks the country, are they themselves forced to live in the rubble?
Nope, they are like people living across town who get to vote to decide if my house gets burned down or gets rebuilt. They don't have the same skin in the game as people who are actually living in the house.
Mariana
(14,864 posts)Under what circumstances does someone's British citizenship expire? Please explain to us exactly how that works.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)I am taking their word for it.
Although I may have mis-stated it. Maybe it is just voting rights that expire and not citizenship.
Mariana
(14,864 posts)Response to Mariana (Reply #73)
hfojvt This message was self-deleted by its author.
The Hitman
(562 posts)US citizenship does not expire.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I'm thinking the same thing... especially when we see an opinion qualified with "that's odd", but there's nothing really odd about it all.
Aristus
(66,651 posts)If an American citizen living overseas gets caught in the middle of some international upheaval, they can seek help and protection at a U.S. Embassy or consulate. They can expect that American civil servants will do whatever they can to ensure the safety of a citizen, regardless of circumstance.
This remains true even if that citizen never steps on U.S. soil.
All citizens have skin in the game, wherever they may live...
Cha
(298,568 posts)We, in the 21st Century, are now Planetary, baby!
lunatica
(53,410 posts)ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)....
mwooldri
(10,315 posts)... where citizens have to file tax returns, even if they've never been in the USA. They do have a vested interest... so they get the vote. AFAIK Americans overseas vote based on where they were last registered. If that's Wisconsin, so be it.
However a British Citizen overseas owes the Crown no taxes on income overseas when permanently resident elsewhere. The right to vote for overseas British citizens extends for only 15 years, and is only for Parliamentary and European elections only.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)...in fact I've lived in the States almost twice as long as I lived in the UK I choose not to get American citizenship but the British Government dis-enfranchised me because of the length of time I've been away...kinda sucks... Citizen of a country I no longer live in and can't vote, whilst living in a country I love and can't vote here either!!
I should just got naturalized but the fee is outrageous ($1000)...
MineralMan
(146,373 posts)Truly, how can you have such a strange idea about US citizenship and voting rights? I do not understand.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Unless an American citizen expressly renounces his/her citizenship or commits treasonous acts against the US, said citizenship can never be arbitrarily revoked. Permanent overseas residency does not constitute such a renunciation.
Holding dual nationality (because of parentage, marriage, naturalization, etc.) does not constitute even a tacit renunciation of said citizenship. Only serving in the military of a foreign entity could possibly entail the revocation of American citizenship.
Nowadays, property ownership has nothing to do with retaining one's citizenship or one's right to vote, as opposed to the early decades of the nation.
That said, it is undeniably much easier and faster for wealthy and landed foreigners to accede to US citizenship than for dirt-poor Latinos.
In order to vote legally in US federal elections, ex-patriot Americans need only contact the nearest American consulate in the country where they reside.
There, they will be provided with documentation and information on legally registering and voting by mail in the state of their last US residency or as a "citizen-at-large" in no particular state.
Several million US ex-patriots vote in US federal elections through this simple and expeditious process.
I am one of them.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)My comment was not about what the law DOES say, but more about what the law SHOULD say.
I don't need to know anything about the law to have an opinion on it.
I'm sorry you could not understand that.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)That statement is worthy of one of Mitt's most notorious pronouncements:
"I don't know what I said, but whatever I said, I stand by it!"
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)but clearly you are not worth talking to.
Sort of a sterotypical liberal though.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)datasuspect
(26,591 posts)is knowing what in the fuck you are talking about a tell tale sign of being a stereotypical liberal?
HOLEE SHIT!
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)take for example, something else that I know almost nothing about - NASCAR racing. Yet because it is on the local news I know something about what happened yesterday. One racer deliberately crashed into another, and then after than there were various brawls between the racers and pit crews and such.
Now I am of the opinion that a racer should face an extra penalty for deliberately causing a crash. I don't believe I really need to know the rules of NASCAR in order to have that opinion. It is also nothing even close to a rebuttal of my opinon if somebody "argues" with me by saying
"you apparently do not know anything about the rules of NASCAR" and proceeds to explain that under the rules of NASCAR it is perfectly legal to cause a crash, etc., etc., etc.
You see - what the rule actually says is kinda irrelevant in a discussion of "what the rule SHOULD say".
And unfortunately, what seems to be stereotypically liberal is feeling the need to insult people who disagree with you. And also thinking that this represents either a rational argument or a civil discussion.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)But not your own facts.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)Where is anything contra-factual mentioned in post 8?
"that she has lived in Spain, for what, 30 years, but is still an American citizen. I mean I was a Wisconsinite for about ten years, from 1987-1988 and 1990-1999, but I don't still get to vote in Wisconsin, even though I owned property there until 2009. She is somewhat shielded from the consequences of her vote, living in Spain."
1. Opinion - when you establish permanent residency in another country, you SHOULD lose your citizenship
2. factual example - when you move from a state, you can no longer vote there - even if you still own property there.
3. opinion - somebody who lives in a house is impacted much more by votes to either fix it or destroy it. People in Spain can vote for evil idiots like Sam Brownback and not have to live under his idiotic and evil rule.
Other people have different opinions. Some are conservative perhaps, and want things to stay the same as they currently are. But it does not refudiate my opinion to go on and on about what the law DOES say.
Nor is an argument won, on substance, by being condescending and insulting and mocking.
Not that I, myself, always put a lot of effort into a rebuttal argument. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1797795
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Those are actually well...silly facts
Look my aunt grew up in Mexico City, she was born in New York City. She paid taxes for several decades, in two countries mind you. She even paid into two social security systems...she retired in the US...by your logic she should have not...it is just silly thinking.
You got a right to your opinion, but in this case, truly not your own facts.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)....you really are getting close to the big reveal, aren't you?
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)revealed that I am one of the people listed on this page http://www.lvcodem.com/
The Hitman
(562 posts)May I suggest www.freerepublic.com? I am sure you will find similar-minded intellectuals there.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)intellectuals?
See if you can understand logic, Mr. High and mighty intellectual.
X happens
Hfojvt states that probably X should not be allowed to happen
Somebody else replies that X is the law.
Uhn, whether X is the law or not is pretty much irrelevant in the argument about whether X is a good thing or a bad thing.
Unless you follow some sort of legalistic "logic" where whatever is the Law MUST be good, because, after all, it IS the law.
In this case, perhaps, hfojvt thinks it is a dumb law.
Now, I know that hfojvt's opinion is often heresy among this group but perhaps you can see how having an opinion about the goodness, or value of something is independent of what the law actually says.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)States don't grant citizenship. Oh and American citizenship has to be actively given up.
Skittles
(153,523 posts)because she always remained a British citizen
lunasun
(21,646 posts)beac
(9,992 posts)whose CEO supports Obama!
Some part of her money will likely end up going to elect Democrats in 2014 and 2016.
Cha
(298,568 posts)MsPithy
(809 posts)This woman was spending her money at Costco, a notoriously progressively run company. HA!
sarcasmo
(23,968 posts)It takes a bit of getting used to, sometimes I say Alien, sometimes I just laugh.
AlexSatan
(535 posts)I have no idea what the skin of any of these folks looks like.
It sounds to me that the issue was one of nationality, not race.
If you are just randomly injecting race into the thread (and that was your intent), I apologize.
is NOT a stretch to presume this ignorant, ugly american was part of the 'new' minority. Thank you very much.SATAN???? whatever.
lalalu
(1,663 posts)comment you would understand.
AlexSatan
(535 posts)But unless there was a racial factor (i.e. my skin was dark and hers wasn't), I wouldn't attribute it to race.
The woman clearly was listening to their discussion. I got nothing from the story that said the folks from Spain had dark skin.
lalalu
(1,663 posts)If you look at racist organizations like the KKK they tend to go after people based on skin color, religion and "foreigners". Birds of an ignorant mentality tend to flock together.
As I stated in another post I have also received similar comments from people who were not white. There is an ignorant assumption that people who don't look a certain way must have just swam to America recently.
AlexSatan
(535 posts)doesn't have to do with looks.
Like I said, if you want to discuss racism, that is perfectly fine. But, as the OP pointed out, that was not the situation here.
lalalu
(1,663 posts)JHB
(37,170 posts)After that, I suspect you might be a little less patient with the ignorant ones. And you might pick up on a common thread which might seem small individually, but starts getting much more clear as the data points build up.
AlexSatan
(535 posts)As the OP pointed out though, her sister is European white.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)And my nephew takes after his father, dark wavy hair, dark eyes, hawk nose, and skin tone that looks like a nice tan.
My sister looks like a typical European Caucasian.
AlexSatan
(535 posts)People do stupid, ignorant things all of the time without it always being a racial issue.
Of course there ARE racial issues, but not all stupid things others say are based on race.
uponit7771
(90,391 posts)lalalu
(1,663 posts)In the last few years my now adult son has complained about this too. Having a father who is black and Italian has really thrown them for a loop.
I have to say it is not just white people I get this from. Growing up black in a black community this was never an issue. Black people are use to all shades and features even in the same family. But as I got older I got that from various people outside the community. It seems there is some stereotype of what black people look like and an ignorance of our diversity.
It was one reason I agreed to participate in a genetic study. Maybe it is the Native ancestry that elicits that response. I just know it is weird.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)the friendly ghost, lol. My response, depending on my mood, is 'vampire' or 'tired/bored', that sort of thing.
femrap
(13,418 posts)You know something...when someone gives me some crap. I respond to them in a British accent and I'm telling you, it stops them in their tracks. Then I say a few words in French as if to dismiss them and the crap stops.
DirtyDawg
(802 posts)...wonder what the woman would have done or said if you had informed her that Costco was a company whose CEO and founder is an Obama supporter, and that she probably should be shopping at Sam's Club if she was going to be such a bigot?
MissNostalgia
(159 posts)She told of the evil 'foreigners' voter fraud conspiracy, in spite of the eloquent explanation she was given.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)ugly, ignorant american. Will we never be rid of this stupidity in the human race? I fear not unless we have a paradigm shift of massive proportions.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)English was good enough for Jesus, it ought to be good enough for the rest of us."
OK, I've been told that Jesse Helms never actually said that. But he may as well have
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)He didn't.
It was a Texas Governor in the 1920's.
Jesse Helms was not as bad as he became toward the end. He even voted for the NC School of the Arts... the "tippy-toe school".... the 1st state supported school for performing arts.... in the 1960's. NC used to be known as "the state of the arts". Now we are trying to be Mississippi!
geomon666
(7,512 posts)That's what happens when you expose these people to reality away from the perceptions of right wing media. They are just left shattered. It's amazing to see.
mnhtnbb
(31,475 posts)santamargarita
(3,170 posts)HopeHoops
(47,675 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Spoken in broken English about the cartel of secret Socialists from all over the world who, with the help of a secret homegrown network, cast votes in US elections even though they are foreigners.
She'd have something to fume about for MONTHS.... all an untrue fantasy....kinda like what Fox News gives her. It woulda made the RW blogs and onto Fox News eventually.... maybe even become something for Orly Taitz could get her war on!
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,154 posts)burnsei sensei
(1,820 posts)they represent the thought and reasoning ability of most white people in this country.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,154 posts)A vote for Romney does not make a person a racist.
There is just too much demonizing going on of Romney voters and Republicans in general. It is as bad as the right wing (not center-right) calling Obama a Socialist or a Communist or a Kenyan or a Muslim, etc. That demonization does the country no good.
ProudProgressiveNow
(6,131 posts)southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)told me when they were kids that had to take either English or French. It was mandatory. To bad we don't have that opportunity here.
libodem
(19,288 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)A few times...so surprised, no, not really.
DFW
(54,663 posts)I speak Catalan, having lived in Barcelona with Catalans for a while, and it's different enough from Spanish so as not to be immediately intelligible to someone who only speaks Castilian ("Spanish" . My Madrid friends who have no connection to Catalunya cannot follow conversations held only in Catalan without help.The right-wing woman must have either spent time in Catalunya herself, or else was rather well educated--rare enough with teabagger types.
morningglory
(2,336 posts)bigbrother05
(5,995 posts)Then jumped to her own conclusions.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)previously voting from Spain.
That's when she put two and two together and got negative seven.
I agree, no one would mistake Valencian Catalan with Castilian having heard both being spoken.
I have a hard enough time keeping up with them with my high-school Spanish when they speak Castilian, I catch about every fifth word, and get blown into the weeds when they switch to Catalan; it is just so different.
Have you ever tried to learn Basque? That's one language I love to listen to, but I understand it's a nightmare to learn.
ReRe
(10,597 posts)RagAss
(13,832 posts)The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)There's a contingent on DU that can't believe it and claim it's all fiction, sadly revealing that they haven't the courage to engage people in public.
allan01
(1,950 posts)who got sliced to ribbions . not your daughter at least but the intended victom
ps: for most of us , we are a ignorant country, present company excepted though
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I get that as a citizen she and her son are entitled to everything that citizenship implies... but voting is administered by the state. Does an expat vote for school levies in a town in which (s)he hasn't lived for 30 years?
Although I've never lived in Canada, I am a Canadian citizen by birth (my mom was a Canadian citizen). Nevertheless, I would not expect to be able to vote for "their" prime minister without demonstrating residency.
AAO
(3,300 posts)knitter4democracy
(14,350 posts)When I was in college, another Spanish told me of the time his Spanish conversation class went on a field trip to the store to practice speaking to each other in that setting. They weren't to use any English at all, and it was all going well until he and his partner overheard a couple nearby start ranting and raving about all those horrible Mexicans coming and taking their jobs and worse. He said that, when it got into seriously racist territory, he quietly walked over, explained that they were from the local college's Spanish department and were native English speakers (and so understood every word they said), and then walked away without even looking back.
I've heard stuff said around people speaking Spanish at the grocery store, and since I'm a Spanish teacher, I usually hear the other side of the conversation, too, and people know when others are ripping on them. We really need to do everything we can to deal with this issue.
Heather MC
(8,084 posts)else fits in that box
LittleGirl
(8,292 posts)My husband (newly sworn-in US/Brit) voted in his first election this past week. He was thrilled to vote for Obama.
edit to clarify - sigh
The Hitman
(562 posts)Don't they speak Valenciano in Valencia and Catalan in Catalonia?
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)Catalan is basically the same regional language, with minor more localized differences, inflection, emphasis, common slang usages, for instance.
My understanding is it can compare to the regional English dialects spoken in this country, with mostly geographical differences.