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bobja

(323 posts)
Mon Oct 29, 2012, 03:26 PM Oct 2012

I have a Diebold Touch Screen voting machine in my house.

Yup, it's right next to my chair here at home in an ominous black bag. Its memory card and printer are included. Since I'm a Touch Screen Inspector for voting day I had to pick up the machine early and hold it until then. We've been encouraged, on election day, to try at least once to get people to use it. Ha ha, I guess they're not that popular!

We received no training on how to check if it's being hacked. Does anyone know at what point they could be hacked? I assume it must be when they are powered up and being used. I have to remove the memory card and seal it in a secure bag right after the end of voting, so I would think the records would be fairly secure then and at the Registrar of Voters.

Over 50% of San Diego County voters here vote by mail, and that includes me. I know people have various reasons to vote by mail, but part of it for me is not trusting Diebold.

I don't expect huge crowds at our poll (there never have been). So, hopefully I won't be too busy on November 6 setting up voters on this machine, but I will as is my duty.

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TrogL

(32,822 posts)
1. Install linux on a memory card and see if it will boot
Mon Oct 29, 2012, 03:30 PM
Oct 2012

To quote Hagrid - "I shouldn't have told you that."

 

Sivart

(325 posts)
2. Speculation....
Mon Oct 29, 2012, 03:43 PM
Oct 2012

This is just speculation...but, I would think if these machines were hacked, it would be before they are shipped out for use. The code for the e-voting application could be altered or configured to count the votes a certain way before the machines are shipped out.

If they were to be tampered with after shipping them out, the machine would need to be connected to a network or the internet, or the party doing the tampering would need physical access to the machine. This is assuming that the machine does not have wifi, bluetooth, or anything like that.

It would be extremely interesting to see what these things are like.....how secure they are. I bet they are either locked down like fort knox, or wide open. One or the other.








upi402

(16,854 posts)
4. like 'selection flipping'
Mon Oct 29, 2012, 03:47 PM
Oct 2012

Sometimes I click on a link or ad and the screen auto-scrolls up- - and I click a link I didn't want!
This event can be caused to happen on hover-over of the mouse cursor too.

whopis01

(3,514 posts)
3. The first thing would be to verify it had been held at a secure facility and... oh snap!
Mon Oct 29, 2012, 03:46 PM
Oct 2012

They gave it to you to take home and hold onto until election day?
Seriously?

Please don't take this personally - but having no idea who you are, what your qualifications are, what your background is, etc, etc, etc, I would have to say that my confidence in the security of the system is pretty much zero. I mean, even if I knew you personally and trusted you completely - I would have to trust everyone who had access to your house during the time the machine was there!

Let me just say very explicitly - I do not mean that as an attack against you in anyway - I mean it as an attack against the system that they have put in place to secure these things. It is flawed from the get-go.

This is a bit dated - but you might find it interesting reading:
http://citpsite.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/oldsite-htdocs/pub/ts06full.pdf

More info here:
https://citp.princeton.edu/research/voting/

The first 20 minutes of this are relevant:



https://www.defcon.org/images/defcon-16/dc16-presentations/defcon-16-panel-hacking-science.pdf

upi402

(16,854 posts)
7. Princeton rebuttal to Diebold's bogus excuses:
Mon Oct 29, 2012, 04:02 PM
Oct 2012

September 20, 2006 By Ed Felten

Diebold issued a response to our e-voting report. While we feel our paper already addresses all the issues they raise, here is a point by point rebuttal. Diebold’s statement is in italics, our response in normal type.

Three people from the Center for Information Technology Policy and Department of Computer Science at Princeton University today released a study of a Diebold Election Systems AccuVote-TS unit they received from an undisclosed source. The unit has security software that was two generations old, and to our knowledge is not used anywhere in the country.

We studied the most recent software version available to us. The version we studied has been used in national elections, and Diebold claimed at the time that it was perfectly secure and could not possibly be subject to the kinds of malicious code injection attacks that our paper and video demonstrate. In short, Diebold made the same kinds of claims about this version – claims that turned out to be wrong – that they are now making about their more recent versions.

Normal security procedures were ignored. Numbered security tape, 18 enclosure screws and numbered security tags were destroyed or missing so that the researchers could get inside the unit.

This is incorrect. Far from ignoring Diebold’s “normal security procedures”, we made them a main focus of our study.

The tape and seals are discussed in our paper (e.g., in Section 5.2), where we explain why they are not impediments to the attacks we describe. The main attack does not require removal of any screws. Contrary to Diebold’s implication here, our paper accounts for these measures and explains why they do not prevent the attacks we describe. Indeed, Diebold does not claim that these measures would prevent any of our attacks.

A virus was introduced to a machine that is never attached to a network.

This is irrelevant. Our paper describes how the virus propagates (see Sections 2.2.2 and 4.3) via memory cards, without requiring any network.

By any standard – academic or common sense – the study is unrealistic and inaccurate.

This is little more than name-calling.

For an academic evaluation, ask our academic colleagues. We’d be happy to provide a long list of names.

We demonstrated these problems on our video, and again in live demos on Fox News and CNN. Common sense says to believe your eyes, not unsubstantiated claims that a technology is secure.

The current generation of AccuVote-TS software – software that is used today on AccuVote-TS units in the United States – features the most advanced security features, including Advanced Encryption Standard 128 bit data encryption, Digitally Signed memory card data, Secure Socket Layer (SSL) data encryption for transmitted results, dynamic passwords, and more.

As above, Diebold does not assert that any of these measures would prevent the attacks described in our paper. Nor do we see any reason why they would.

These touch screen voting stations are stand-alone units that are never networked together and contain their own individual digitally signed memory cards.

As discussed above, the lack of networking is irrelevant. We never claim the machines are networked, and we explain in our paper (e.g. Sections 2.2.2 and 4.3) how the virus propagates using memory cards, without requiring a network.

Again, Diebold does not claim that these measures would prevent the attacks described in our paper.

In addition to this extensive security, the report all but ignores physical security and election procedures. Every local jurisdiction secures its voting machines – every voting machine, not just electronic machines. Electronic machines are secured with security tape and numbered security seals that would reveal any sign of tampering.

Our paper discusses physical security, election procedures, security tape, and numbered security seals. See, for example, Sections 3.3 and 5.2 of our paper. These sections and others explain why these measures do not prevent the attacks we describe. And once again, Diebold does not assert that they would.

Diebold strongly disagrees with the conclusion of the Princeton report. Secure voting equipment, proper procedures and adequate testing assure an accurate voting process that has been confirmed through numerous, stringent accuracy tests and third party security analysis.

Every voter in every local jurisdiction that uses the AccuVote-Ts should feel secure knowing that their vote will count on Election Day.

Secure voting equipment and adequate testing would assure accurate voting – if we had them. To our knowledge, every independent third party analysis of the AccuVote-TS has found serious problems, including the Hopkins/Rice report, the SAIC report, the RABA report, the Compuware report, and now our report. Diebold ignores all of these results, and still tries to prevent third-party studies of its system.

If Diebold really believes its latest systems are secure, it should allow third parties like us to evaluate them.

MineralMan

(146,307 posts)
5. Let's see a photo of it sitting in your living room, OK?
Mon Oct 29, 2012, 03:51 PM
Oct 2012

I'm concerned about this. Those machines should be stored in a secure building with intrusion alarms. Sending them home with election workers doesn't sound right. I don't necessarily disbelieve you, but I'd like to see some photo evidence that it is there in your home. You're in San Diego County?

You have a cellphone, I imagine. Snap a photo and post it, please.

bobja

(323 posts)
8. I agree with you...
Mon Oct 29, 2012, 04:55 PM
Oct 2012

...that it's a little weird that I would be trusted. They know who I am of course - had to show my ID and sign for it. We're not allowed to open the bags and do an inventory until Nov. 6. I know it's a Diebold machine because we trained on them last week. I do have a photo to post but I don't know how to post a photo. It should be easy, I know. A little help, please?

bobja

(323 posts)
11. Here's link to a photo
Mon Oct 29, 2012, 05:27 PM
Oct 2012

The black bag doesn't say 'Diebold' or 'voting machine' or anything else to identify it except a code number, and I can't open it until election day. It's in there though, folded up. Hopefully you can read 'Election Supply Pouch' and 'San Diego County Registrar of Voters' on the clear plastic bag as veification.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/bobja/8136344313/

 

HopeHoops

(47,675 posts)
6. It depends on the model. Some needed physical connections. Newer ones are wireless.
Mon Oct 29, 2012, 04:00 PM
Oct 2012

They can all be hacked by one method or another, and with inexpensive parts. I still own the bumper sticker: "Diebold - protecting America from democracy"

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
9. It could have been "hacked" before it ever left the factory....
Mon Oct 29, 2012, 05:07 PM
Oct 2012

... there could be a "trojan horse" hidden in a blob of solder for all anyone knows. A hidden chip that only activates itself during the hours of the election (thereby passing any tests without problem) and then designed to flip a percentage of votes from A to B

If there's no paper ballot, there's no way to detect such a "hack".

Answer: Paper ballots, hand counted, in public cameras rolling.

There is no reason whatsoever to use electronic machines (including scanners). None. Well, except to steal elections.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,182 posts)
10. I actually have a 2000 Florida butterfly ballot voting machine in my garage.
Mon Oct 29, 2012, 05:09 PM
Oct 2012

Complete with authentically verified chads. No joke.

My wife bought it at a yard sale. Wonder how much it would go for on Pawn Stars?

brooklynite

(94,548 posts)
14. Ditto...
Mon Oct 29, 2012, 05:47 PM
Oct 2012

Only problem is, I can't find a restock of the voting cards (I use them for trivia contests at parties)

 

slackmaster

(60,567 posts)
15. If it was going to be hacked, it's either already hacked or you will do the hacking
Mon Oct 29, 2012, 05:49 PM
Oct 2012

You may not even be aware that you are doing it.

Voters should definitely pay attention to the paper audit tape in those machines.

Over 50% of San Diego County voters here vote by mail, and that includes me. I know people have various reasons to vote by mail, but part of it for me is not trusting Diebold.

What assurance do you have that your mailed-in votes will be counted?

bobja

(323 posts)
18. What assurance do any of us have?
Mon Oct 29, 2012, 07:10 PM
Oct 2012

Though I use the mail-in ballot and envelope, I always walk it in to my poll and drop it in the ballot box myself. At least I know it got in the Registrars hands. After that, who knows? I like getting that "I voted" sticker, too!

I could go up the the Registrars office and observe the vote counting I suppose, but have never done it.

 

Panasonic

(2,921 posts)
17. Throw the entire thing out in the Pacific.
Mon Oct 29, 2012, 06:00 PM
Oct 2012

Seriously.

The touch screens are not even worth voting on.

They needs to be destroyed, and salt water can take care of it rather rapidly.

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